Author Topic: Criteria for creating 1AAA mDIYxGPS 200km  (Read 3231 times)

Re: Criteria for creating 1AAA mDIYxGPS 200km
« Reply #25 on: 20 September, 2018, 12:46:39 pm »
"To change it around, why don't you class DIYs as permanents?"
Because DIYs aren't permanent, they are individually ephemeral. You 'do it yourself' (route definition and ride it). One might use the same route for another DIY but each one is distinct and one needs to specify the 'DIY' route each time (one enters).
Permanents are routes which are (effectively) permanent: the route is defined (by its 'owner'; it's 'permanently' there for entering on a date of the rider's choosing.
You may wish to look at this from the Clapham omnibus traveller's PoV, or even the cyclist riding over Clapham Common who, to keep herself amused, muses about how permanent a DIY is, and whether it could be a topic for the 'cycle to the pub' drinking session later.
ETA: I invite you to review the discussion on ESL's current "Topic: Number of riders doing permanents and DIYs" thread - DIYs and Permanents - not the same thing. How does calling a DIY a DIY perm help (anyone)?
As an aside, having made a significant contribution to @Phil W's permanent mapping effort, some permanents should not be: ie unless the route is advertised (on its permanent event page) they should be archived and not listed - again imo (and after encouragement to rectify the lack of data).

frankly frankie

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Re: Criteria for creating 1AAA mDIYxGPS 200km
« Reply #26 on: 20 September, 2018, 01:10:45 pm »
To be fair, in AUK's regulations which define event classifications they are referred to as 'DIY events' (and then described as permanent events), and 'DIY Events' is adhered to throughout the documentation on aukweb, EXCEPT in the titles of the events themselves, where they have been called 'DIY Permanent'.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

frankly frankie

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Re: Criteria for creating 1AAA mDIYxGPS 200km
« Reply #27 on: 20 September, 2018, 01:31:12 pm »
Originally there were just Calendar events. Vetted in advance (w.r.t. controls and distance) by AUK, much like now.

Then someone created Permenant events that could be ridden at any time gathering PoP as required. Same vetting in advance (w.r.t. controls and distance).

Then it was decreed that a Permanent could be ridden (that is, counted) more than once in a season. **

Then the Mesh was introduced.  A directory of control points covering most of the country, ideally 50km apart.  A rider could simply define their Permanent ride using any series of adjacent Mesh points.
The Mesh lasted a few years but was replaced by:

Quote
Then someone created DIY Permanent events that were vetted upon application to the DIY organiser but still validated using traditional PoP.

Then someone created DIYxGPS events that were vetted upon application to the DIY organiser but validated by analysing the resulting GPX files.

So everything is either a Calendar event or a Permanent, with DIYs, DIYxGPS and ECEs all in the "Perm" basket.

** unimaginable now, but up to 200? (can't remember the exact year) you could only ride a Permanent once in a season - you couldn't even reverse it and call it two rides that way.  At the time this seemed like a small change
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: Criteria for creating 1AAA mDIYxGPS 200km
« Reply #28 on: 20 September, 2018, 01:39:58 pm »
"To change it around, why don't you class DIYs as permanents?"
Because DIYs aren't permanent, they are individually ephemeral. You 'do it yourself' (route definition and ride it). One might use the same route for another DIY but each one is distinct and one needs to specify the 'DIY' route each time (one enters).
Permanents are routes which are (effectively) permanent: the route is defined (by its 'owner'; it's 'permanently' there for entering on a date of the rider's choosing.
You may wish to look at this from the Clapham omnibus traveller's PoV, or even the cyclist riding over Clapham Common who, to keep herself amused, muses about how permanent a DIY is, and whether it could be a topic for the 'cycle to the pub' drinking session later.

A DIY is just as permanent, it's just you are the owner. I rode one of my DIYs about 15 times. I only had to get the controls/distance checked once, on subsequent times I entered it I just told my DIY organiser that I was doing the same route again this Saturday and that was fine (along with the appropriate entry form, usually emailed). When I got others to do the ride with me I told them to tell the DIY Organiser "I'm doing Greenbank's 200 with him, the controls are the same as he uses." and submit a suitable entry form. Very much like entering a perm.

That seems to mostly fit your criteria of "permanent". The route (well, the controls in reality, there is no set route but a suggested route may be provided) remained the same, others can enter it (if they have the details), etc.

Perm: Route/controls chosen by a perm organiser, (possibly scant) details published (so others can ride it), initial validation by individual perm organisers
DIY: Route/controls chosen by individuals, no requirements for details to be published, initial validation by designated DIY organiser

DIYs can definitely be ephemeral if people ride them once and don't reuse them or offer them to other people.

ETA: I invite you to review the discussion on ESL's current "Topic: Number of riders doing permanents and DIYs" thread - DIYs and Permanents - not the same thing. How does calling a DIY a DIY perm help (anyone)?

I never said DIYs and Permanents are the same thing. DIYs are a type of permanent. But most of the time the term "permanent" is used to refer to the non-DIY subset. In the context of the term "permanents and DIYs" it's obvious to most that it means "permanents" (as in non-DIY Permanents) and "DIYs".

I agree there's overlap in the terminology and it isn't particularly clear but, as FF says, it's unlikely to ever change. The various pages on the AUK site probably need to be reworded as most of them seem to have been written in isolation.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Criteria for creating 1AAA mDIYxGPS 200km
« Reply #29 on: 20 September, 2018, 02:05:26 pm »
Thank you (to both) for taking considerable trouble to explain the (shaky) rationale and (esteemed) history.
Defining DIYs as a set (not a subset of perms) seems to me to have benefits (eg clarity as opposed to obfuscation) which outweigh whatever costs inform Frank's adverse cost/benefit analysis.
PS It's windy and rainy down here in Devon.

frankly frankie

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    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Criteria for creating 1AAA mDIYxGPS 200km
« Reply #30 on: 20 September, 2018, 04:36:47 pm »
Clarity I agree with you.  The definition is embedded at data level and therefore any query filtering on 'Permanent' would reasonably expect to find DIYs as part of the returned resultset.  There are any number of such queries stored and in constant use.  Therefore the cost of a change in terms of time and trouble would be considerable, and from now on "time and trouble" = "great expense"  :o see the CHAIRMAN thread(s) on this forum.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll