Author Topic: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!  (Read 9017 times)

Wascally Weasel

  • Slayer of Dragons and killer of threads.
Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #75 on: 04 June, 2013, 08:50:22 pm »
It really isn't gratuitous though - it's a pseudo-mediaeval universe, this is what people were like back then, like it or not.

Hmm. Not so sure. More like it's what GRRM fantasises things were like back then.

People have continued to be people throughout history, a mixture of good and bad.  It would be wrong to assume that people always thought in the exact same way we do now* but they seem to have acted for good and ill in a way not much different from present times.

The period that most often gets mentioned in reference to Martin's books is the War of the Roses - rife with conflicts, murders and executions so I don’t see some of the more adult events and themes in his book to be too out of place for his mostly high medieval influenced ‘period’.

That aside, speaking as someone who is trying to write historical fiction there is a real quandary on how to approach murder, rape and other sexual violence.  We can be sure that it was going on, especially during wars when laws are often less enforced or ignored (see the end result of many sieges throughout history) but as a writer of fiction do you ignore sexual violence completely where it would have existed or find a way of addressing it?

There's a character in the book I'm trying to write that there is documentary evidence that shows he was a pretty nasty piece of work, including murder, theft and at least one rape (of a nun).  I'm 'lucky' in this particular case that the person in question, while a named character doesn't appear in person in the main narrative I've written but needs to be mentioned for context (he's an important character and although dead by the time of the main story has had a significant effect on the earlier events and the subsequent actions of other main characters (including royalty))**.

What I would hate to do would be to write about sexual violence in a sensationalist or exploitative way but not mentioning it at all seems to be too much of a cop-out and a bit too Victorian in its bowdlerisation.  So I'm unsure how differently Martin should approach it.  I think it would be fair to say he wasn't writing for the screen and as I said previously, I think that for some the take on sex and nudity in GoT on screen is perhaps more gratuitous than in similar productions by HBO such as Rome.

Researching medieval law can be interesting to reveal just how similar our society is rather than how different to earlier times.  Even a lot of our current laws on sexual violence are incredibly recent and when you read about how courts undermined new or existing laws against rape in medieval times, some similarities are as striking as they are unpleasant to read -  The Statute of Westminster in 1285 had a specific section on rape that supposedly codified rape as one of the serious crimes of the land.  In practice local courts either ignored or undermined this law by deterring complaints through attacking the reputation of women who brought claims, unpleasant pre-trial processes such as virginity checks, acquitting defendants and bringing claims of false accusation with subsequent severe punishment against women whose claims were not proven.

Apologies about the lengthy reply, not getting at you in any way just something I have been thinking about since this thread started.


* E.g. There's a tendency in a lot of medieval historical fiction for characters to be quite anti-clerical in a way that would rarely have been the case - yes at particular times of dissatisfaction with the church and clergy but not a generally held opinion all the time.  There are often characters in medieval historical fiction that are pretty much displaying a post-enlightenment view of the world, which conforms more to our view of the world now than the medieval one.  Bernard Cornwall is particularly guilty of this one.


** It's set in the late Anglo Saxon period/Norman Conquest - narrative is mostly on events after 1051 but reference is made to events at least as far back as the mid 900s.

Chris S

Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #76 on: 04 June, 2013, 09:07:49 pm »
All of these books, tv programmes and films pander to one thing.

Humans, by their very nature, love to get one over on someone they see as an "opponent".

We are, singular amongst species generally, adept at fucking each other over for an advantage (TM Lt Ripley, 1986). It's why we drive around in Lexus cars and don't still swing from the trees. It's why I use a knife and fork to eat my tea, not a piece of flint.

I can feel it when I watch these programmes, or listen to the audiobooks. I want revenge.  I want that little fucktard scrote Joffrey to get what's coming to him. And I consider myself a pacifist!

Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #77 on: 04 June, 2013, 09:46:28 pm »
You can feel the misogyny oozing out of the pages.
I suspect that's pretty accurate from a lot of history.

caerau

  • SR x 3 - PBP fail but 1090 km - hey - not too bad
Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #78 on: 04 June, 2013, 10:10:05 pm »
It really isn't gratuitous though - it's a pseudo-mediaeval universe, this is what people were like back then, like it or not.

Hmm. Not so sure. More like it's what GRRM fantasises things were like back then.

People have continued to be people throughout history, a mixture of good and bad.  It would be wrong to assume that people always thought in the exact same way we do now* but they seem to have acted for good and ill in a way not much different from present times.

The period that most often gets mentioned in reference to Martin's books is the War of the Roses - rife with conflicts, murders and executions so I don’t see some of the more adult events and themes in his book to be too out of place for his mostly high medieval influenced ‘period’.

That aside, speaking as someone who is trying to write historical fiction there is a real quandary on how to approach murder, rape and other sexual violence.  We can sure that it was going on, especially during wars when laws are often less enforced or ignored (see the end result of many sieges throughout history) but as a writer of fiction do you ignore sexual violence completely or find a way of addressing it?

There's a character in the book I'm trying to write that there is documentary evidence that shows he was a pretty nasty piece of work, including murder, theft and at least one rape (of a nun).  I'm 'lucky' in this particular case that the person in question, while a named character doesn't appear in person in the main narrative I've written but needs to be mentioned for context (he's an important character and although dead by the time of the main story has had a significant effect on the earlier events and the subsequent actions of other main characters (including royalty))**.

What I would hate to do would be to write about sexual violence in a sensationalist or exploitative way but not mentioning it sall eems to be too much of a cop-out and a bit too Victorian in its bowdlerisation.  So I'm unsure how differently Martin should approach it.  I think it would be fair to say he wasn't writing for the screen and as I said previously, I think that for some the take on sex and nudity in GoT on screen is perhaps more gratuitous than in similar productions by HBO such as Rome.

Researching medieval law can be interesting to reveal just how similar our society is rather than how different to earlier times.  Even a lot of our current laws on sexual violence are incredibly recent and when you read about how courts undermined new or existing laws against rape in medieval times, some similarities are as striking as they are unpleasant to read -  The Statute of Westminster in 1285 had a specific section on rape that supposedly codified rape as one of the serious crimes of the land.  In practice local courts either ignored or undermined this law by deterring complaints through attacking the reputation of women who brought claims, unpleasant pre-trial processes such as virginity checks, acquitting defendants and bringing claims of false accusation with subsequent severe punishment against women whose claims were not proven.

Apologies about the lengthy reply, not getting at you in any way just something I have been thinking about since this thread started.


*There's a tendency in a lot of medieval historical fiction for characters to be quite anti-clerical in a way that would rarely have been the case - yes at particular times of dissatisfaction with the church and clergy but not a generally held opinion all the time.  There are often characters in medieval historical fiction that are pretty much displaying a post-enlightenment view of the world, which conforms more to our view of the world now than the medieval one.  Bernard Cornwall is particularly guilty of this one.


** It's set in the late Anglo Saxon period/Norman Conquest - narrative is mostly on events after 1051 but reference is made to events at least as far back as the mid 900s.

Not at all - fantastic post!  :thumbsup:
It's a reverse Elvis thing.

caerau

  • SR x 3 - PBP fail but 1090 km - hey - not too bad
Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #79 on: 04 June, 2013, 10:24:11 pm »
You can feel the misogyny oozing out of the pages.
I suspect that's pretty accurate from a lot of history.

True enough, but oddly - if Terry Jones is to be believed anyway - the middle ages were actually a relatively good time to be a woman in terms of equality.  Possibly more so than now.  He did quite an interesting series on the mediaeval peoples a few years back and it was quite illuminating.  The stories of little dainty princesses waiting for knights in shining armour to rescue them from tall towers is largely a victorian invention.  I recall him talking extensively about mediaeval 'busniess wenches' at one point  ;D

If you want some interesting stories about the brutality of mediaeval rulers, look up quite large parts of  Byzantine history.  Gouging out of eyes features very heavily.  :sick:
It's a reverse Elvis thing.

redshift

  • High Priestess of wires
    • redshift home
Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #80 on: 04 June, 2013, 11:25:54 pm »
  Who hasn't got rattingly drunk and leered at a questionable-age girl before slurring "I am the god of tits and wine!" and slumping into a pool of piss and vomit?  Eh? 

Er, well, since you mention it, me.  Although in my defence I should state that her age wasn't that questionable, and I never drank enough to throw up or pass out.


At least, not as far as I remember...    ;D
L
:)
Windcheetah No. 176
The all-round entertainer gets quite arsey,
They won't translate his lame shit into Farsi
Somehow to let it go would be more classy…

Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #81 on: 05 June, 2013, 09:37:18 am »
Researching medieval law can be interesting to reveal just how similar our society is rather than how different to earlier times.  Even a lot of our current laws on sexual violence are incredibly recent and when you read about how courts undermined new or existing laws against rape in medieval times, some similarities are as striking as they are unpleasant to read -  The Statute of Westminster in 1285 had a specific section on rape that supposedly codified rape as one of the serious crimes of the land.  In practice local courts either ignored or undermined this law by deterring complaints through attacking the reputation of women who brought claims, unpleasant pre-trial processes such as virginity checks, acquitting defendants and bringing claims of false accusation with subsequent severe punishment against women whose claims were not proven.

'Marital rape' didn't even exist as a crime in the UK until 1991

Yes, a lot of our current laws are incredibly recent.

I watched the most recent episode of GoT last night. Grueling.

The violence doesn't seem out of place (definitely not when my current reading material is Dervla Murphy's post-war Balkans book).
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #82 on: 05 June, 2013, 10:03:33 am »
Have we all seen this week's ep yet?

Enjoy

Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #83 on: 05 June, 2013, 10:18:22 am »
:D

Just what did people expect? Everyone would live happily ever after?

Cynical link to real life here

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<i>Marmite slave</i>

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #84 on: 07 June, 2013, 10:44:56 am »
That aside, speaking as someone who is trying to write historical fiction there is a real quandary on how to approach murder, rape and other sexual violence.  We can be sure that it was going on, especially during wars when laws are often less enforced or ignored (see the end result of many sieges throughout history) but as a writer of fiction do you ignore sexual violence completely where it would have existed or find a way of addressing it?

But Game Of Thrones is not historical fiction, it's pure fantasy, so any appeal to "historical accuracy" is a massive red herring. It's depicting a technologically backwards feudal society but is otherwise entirely modern in its sensibilities. As shown by the way people are relating it to what goes on in modern real-life conflicts.

Personally, I'm uncomfortable with the depiction of women in GoT, so I'm surprised that so many politically savvy women I know watch and enjoy it. But that's their lookout.

I probably would have loved it when I was 15 so I'm also slightly surprised that my own 15yo son has shown no real interest in it. We started watching the first episode together but gave up halfway through - aside from the slightly uncomfortable thing of watching with your parents as Tyrion cavorts with two whores, he seemed to find it mostly pretty boring. I've watched bits of it since and it just seems silly to me. Which is fine, if you like that kind of thing, but it's not for me.

I don't think there's anything particularly damaging in watching this stuff as long as you do treat it as pure fantasy. The problem is whether or not young people have the emotional maturity to deal with it in those terms, but you have to judge each child individually based on what you know of them. If you're their parent, you should know them well enough to be able to make a sensible judgment. I certainly wouldn't put a specific arbitrary age on it.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Chris S

Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #85 on: 07 June, 2013, 11:01:46 am »
Personally, I'm uncomfortable with the depiction of women in GoT, so I'm surprised that so many politically savvy women I know watch and enjoy it. But that's their lookout.

I know what you mean, but I've kind of softened somewhat as the books/programmes have progressed.

There are some strong female characters (even some who talk to other female characters about something other than men - which is something Significant in feminist circles, it would seem), and there are also plenty of male characters who get abused.

But then again, there are also brothels, and there's quite a lot of rapey sex.

Fboab is a big fan of both feminism and GoTs - maybe she'll chime in and say how she feels about it.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #86 on: 07 June, 2013, 11:05:28 am »
Fboab is a big fan of both feminism and GoTs - maybe she'll chime in and say how she feels about it.

Fboab is one of the politically savvy women I was thinking of. If she's cool with it, I feel no need to tell her she shouldn't be.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #87 on: 07 June, 2013, 11:21:17 am »
If you want some interesting stories about the brutality of mediaeval rulers, look up quite large parts of  Byzantine history.  Gouging out of eyes features very heavily.  :sick:
Approved Byzantine technique for blinding weren't always quite so crude. They had plenty of practice to get it right, & from what I've read, hot irons were commonly used. Not as messy, but just as effective.

But yeah, if you want brutality, Basil the Bulgar-slayer is well up there. Stories may be exaggerated, but note the account of the thousands of Bulgarian prisoners taken at the battle of Kleidion (1014) being blinded then released, with one man in every 100 left with one eye to lead the rest home, in order to have the maximum psychological impact on the Bulgars.

We've all heard of Vlad the Impaler, of course. A few hundred years later than Basil, contemporary with the Wars of the Roses.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

caerau

  • SR x 3 - PBP fail but 1090 km - hey - not too bad
Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #88 on: 07 June, 2013, 11:29:40 am »
Vlad the impaler was more or less a captive of the Turks by that point though - of course the Ottoman Turks were positively civilized in comparison ;)

I'm not sure the story about Basil and the mass blindings of Bulgars is not propoganda to be fair.  Empress Irene however, did manage to have her own son blinded so brutally that he died of course.
One thing burned on my brain of mediaeval torture was a visit to a torture chamber museum in Mont St Michel in France.  I hate to use a modern young person's internet inspired acronym, but OMFG!
It's a reverse Elvis thing.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #89 on: 07 June, 2013, 11:41:47 am »
Y'know, I've met Basil.  I don't think he's as bad as all that.

Nor quite as old, come to think of it.
Getting there...

Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #90 on: 07 June, 2013, 12:07:41 pm »
Fboab is a big fan of both feminism and GoTs - maybe she'll chime in and say how she feels about it.

Fboab is one of the politically savvy women I was thinking of. If she's cool with it, I feel no need to tell her she shouldn't be.
'cool with it' is a bit misleading. I love Game of Thrones. I make jokes about it all the time. I don't, however, think it's something impressionable young people should be watching without a hefty dose of awareness of where the lines are drawn between fantasy and reality, and what's OK and what's certainly not.

Do I think it is a 'good' society? No of course I do not. Do I think it glamorises sex and violence? Yes I do. Do I think that's OK? Well... that's more tricky. I'm caught between 'adults and their choices' and 'allowing free reign to misogyny'.

As the books go on, we get more strong female characters. I don't think there's as much sexism as there might be (not that that's a recommendation), and Dorne isn't even a patriarchy.

It's fantasy. One of the functions of fantasy fiction is to ask us to review our own society and compare and contrast to invention. It's one of the things that make it interesting.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #91 on: 07 June, 2013, 12:18:27 pm »
I don't, however, think it's something impressionable young people should be watching without a hefty dose of awareness of where the lines are drawn between fantasy and reality, and what's OK and what's certainly not.

This sums it up perfectly for me.

Quote
It's fantasy. One of the functions of fantasy fiction is to ask us to review our own society and compare and contrast to invention. It's one of the things that make it interesting.

And this is nicely put too.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Dibdib

  • Fat'n'slow
Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #92 on: 09 June, 2013, 10:20:43 am »
Spoiler tags for a minor plot point in S3 Ep 9, but mostly it's just funny...

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Chris S

Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #93 on: 11 June, 2013, 09:42:14 am »
Episode 10.

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caerau

  • SR x 3 - PBP fail but 1090 km - hey - not too bad
Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #94 on: 11 June, 2013, 10:02:58 am »
Episode 10.

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On a non-spoilery note.  I read that GRRM is concerned that the TV series are catching up on the books too fast.  Me too - well - you know what to do about that now George don't ya now!  ;D
It's a reverse Elvis thing.

Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #95 on: 11 June, 2013, 11:01:37 pm »
Episode 10.

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"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #96 on: 12 June, 2013, 08:50:18 am »
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Eccentrica Gallumbits

  • Rock 'n' roll and brew, rock 'n' roll and brew...
Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #97 on: 03 July, 2013, 08:54:02 am »
Having tried the box set of the first series and been bored rigid in the first 20 minutes, I decided to try the books instead and have now nearly finished the first book. Each chapter is about a different character - Eddard, Catelyn, Daenerys (she's my favourite so far, and Arya and Bran) etc. It took me a good two or three repetitions of each character before I started to get into it but now I'm at the stage where I don't want to go to work so I can stay and finish it.
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.


redshift

  • High Priestess of wires
    • redshift home
Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #98 on: 03 July, 2013, 09:19:35 am »
Well, I bought the box set of series one, and persevered to the end. 

I don't think I'll get any more.  I cannot fault it for Production values or technical TV-type stuff.  It is beautifully made and well-acted.  It's just not very good.  It's as though somebody took a tick-list of unfortunates and decided there needed to be one of each - a dwarf, an idiot, a cripple, a bastard, a whatever.  The list is bloody endless, and the upshot is a programme about 30 or so characters with whom I have no empathy, fighting over something about which I couldn't care less.
L
:)
Windcheetah No. 176
The all-round entertainer gets quite arsey,
They won't translate his lame shit into Farsi
Somehow to let it go would be more classy…

caerau

  • SR x 3 - PBP fail but 1090 km - hey - not too bad
Re: Game of Thrones. Strong stuff!
« Reply #99 on: 03 July, 2013, 10:11:51 am »
Having tried the box set of the first series and been bored rigid in the first 20 minutes, I decided to try the books instead and have now nearly finished the first book. Each chapter is about a different character - Eddard, Catelyn, Daenerys (she's my favourite so far, and Arya and Bran) etc. It took me a good two or three repetitions of each character before I started to get into it but now I'm at the stage where I don't want to go to work so I can stay and finish it.

Excellent.  Another four books and you can join in the seemingly endless wait for the next one   :thumbsup:::-)
The books are, as always, better by far than the series - I don't know how anyone who watches the series and hasn't read the books has any clue as to who is who - I know my other half doesn't really follow the vast number of characters very well.

You're clearly not reading it right though - it is traditional for either Tyrion or Arya to be favourite, so there  :P ;)

(Mine's Arya)
It's a reverse Elvis thing.