Same route twice on DIYxGPS etc ?

[bikey-mikey]

I have entered a 600 & the route is an out and back from home, done TWICE, i.e two laps.  (This way I don't need a hotel !!!)

Can I can turn off my Garmin when I get home after the first lap, and turn it back on again before I leave for the second lap?

Will the first lap still be there?

Should I save the first lap, for safety's sake, and record a second one, or would two files not be acceptable? 

I do have the option of keeping the Garmin turned on and charging from one of my three Tecknet batteries, but I am not sure whether it might 'gremlin' on me and lose the first lap somehow....

Also if I keep it going can I reload the course again before I start the second lap, or will that purge the memory?


All these issues must have been worked out by the PBP Garmin users, so hopefully someone will sort me out !

[Euan Uzami]

If it's anything like my etrex then you would switch it off between laps and each lap would be in its own file. If you want to keep recording to the same file, you have to leave it on, but I'm guessing it wouldn't be an issue to validation to have multiple files. You would probably have to change the batteries at some point on a 600 so you will have to switch it off for that.
What you do with following routes doesn't have any effect on recording tracks, so restarting navigation of a route doesn't purge the tracklog memory of where you've been.

[bikey-mikey]

Thanks Ben

[frankly frankie]

But your Garmin may not be anything like Ben's Etrex.  Who knows?

[Jord]

I've had different Garmins - three so far - and they all seem to behave differently...

I'd check your data recording method because if you have it recording too frequently it may overwrite the GPX on a 600. I'd definitely save leg one when I got home.

[RichForrest]

Technically you could have a track that was just snapshots of times you passed through the controls, turned on a few km either side of the place.
This would work like a receipt as it would have a location and a time stamp on for the place you've passed through.
Nobody has done it this way yet though.

I have validated a ride where the track wasn't complete due to the person not realising it was off. The distance doesn't matter only the controls and times match up.

[L CC]

I have validated a ride where the track wasn't complete due to the person not realising it was off. The distance doesn't matter only the controls and times match up.

Was that my (I am too stupid to be allowed technology) one?

As an aside, does bikey-mikey's route have to be 2 different laps? Or is he OK to do 2 laps of the same 300k for his 600?

[eck]

I have validated a ride where the track wasn't complete due to the person not realising it was off. The distance doesn't matter only the controls and times match up.

Was that my (I am too stupid to be allowed technology) one?

As an aside, does bikey-mikey's route have to be 2 different laps? Or is he OK to do 2 laps of the same 300k for his 600?

Interesting question fboab: I was asked the same question recently by a Scottish DIYer. Unsure of the answer, I asked the AUK Permanents Secretary, and he replied thus:

AUK events should not have repeat loops
(Apart, for the pedants,  from the Mersey Roads 24hr time trial)
Figure of 8 or cloverleaf rides using the same control more than once are permissible, but each loop must be once only.
I can't immediately find where this is set down. It isn't a regulation, so must be in org guidelines somewhere - I can search it out if necessary

The only reference I can find is in the AUK organisers' guide here, which implies that, as John says, repeat visits to base are ok, but not round and round the same loop. Why would you want to anyway?

TBH, I once approved a main road Out & Back X2 slog of a route for someone who seemed desperate to keep his RRTY going in the depths of winter, when all but main roads were virtually impassable. With hindsight, I think I should have suggested a different course of action. 
Cat >>> Pigeons 

[bikey-mikey]

Thanks guys

I'm back from the first out and back, and it went well.  In the morning, early, I will try to zap through the rest of the route.

It is a very interesting, fast course with great views and all that, but it was put together in a hurry, having seen the great weather forecast for the westcounty for the next few days, so I expect to go around 68 kms over distance, if all goes to plan (on a 600).  I did this cos it was too late and somewhat unfair to expect confirmation of distance on a shorter, just over 600 route, from my org - Ian has enough to do looking after all my DIYs already (apart from his 'chair' duties).  Anyway, I don't mind doing the extra distance - it helps to make up for the course being flattish, and we are long distance bike riders, aren't we??

My garmin 705  has 2 gigs of memory and I had deleted all the history and only had the one .gpx course in it, so not worried about overwriting - at times it has had upwards of 40 longish rides on it without problems, so "touch wood".....

I got home, paused it, then saved another lap, so that is in the history folder anyway - then put it on charge with a fresh tecknet, so it should stay on for the night, whilst at the same time recharging the one used today, which has lost one of it's three bars...

I also got receipts at just about every control anyway today - there are not that many...

[Ray 6701]

If you cant repeat the same loop twice could you ride the same loop clockwise then anti clockwise    As we all know if you ride a route in reverse it's a totally different ride 

[Greenbank]

With GPS you can specify a completely different set of controls, they just happen to be 10 yards apart along the same bit of road.

Part of me wants to do a 200km Audax as 19 laps of Richmond Park (~202km, 20 laps would make it safe), but you need 3 'controls' per lap and I'm guessing 60 controls for a 200 would get filed in the "no thanks" bin from the DIY organiser.

[bikey-mikey]

Well I have done it, and it all recorded nicely, though I did save a lap at most of the controls, just in case.  I had a leisurely night at home and after finishing I still I had about four hours in hand, so that's good.

Only problem is that the Garmin file won't seem to upload to Garmin Connect.  Oh it starts as normal, and then says 'uploading to Garmin Connect' and then comes up with an uploading box that says '09/28/2011 06:09:23 AM' and then the recorded length '01:04:47:57' where the 01 is I presume 1 day, but whereas my 19 hour 400k took about ten mins to upload, the 600k went at it all night, and still didn't finish.

Any tips?  Or is it the Garmin system?

I took a video as I crossed the 600 k line, and I have photos of the Garmin display showing the final distance, time and time of day, and I got a fair number of receipts, including both ends of the course, but I was hoping for less technohassle, and don't want to have to go to my org with a mish mash...

[frankly frankie]

If I was the Org I would expect to receive the mish-mash.

[bikey-mikey]

If I was the Org I would expect to receive the mish-mash.

I hope it does not come to that, though it is the key to my SR.  I can always do another ride in the next month, I suppose, but it's this one I will remember...

I spoke to a very useful guy at Garmin CS, Phil Elliott, who got me to email him the file, (zipped) and then rang me back a bit later - seems there were some very high speed spikes, and some dodgy cadence data (I don't have a sensor, but I rode a few Ks with a guy spinning)  Phil also said there was some corrupt data. 

However, he said that it definitely was not my new high power l.e.d. dynamo lights....  but he didn't say why after all these years it had to happen now...

He then emailed me back a .gpx file, which he said, showed exactly where I had been riding, though not all the usual data was there.  I have forwarded this to the org, and I hope it will be just fine, and simple.  It is hard to get it loaded once unzipped if you use internet explorer, cos you keep getting a message saying that a script on the page is slowing down your browser, and if you keep clicking the ignore button it eventually opens, but examining it takes ages.  Then I had a brainwave, and went into BRT via google chrome, and it opened just fine after a few minutes, with a counter telling me exactly how much had uploaded in 1 percentage steps.  It is possible to view the whole thing and see that I went through all the controls.  Weyhey...

It would be great if someone out there was able to fix my tcx so it could be loaded into Garmin Connect, where all my other rides are, else I will have to do a manual entry, with just the basic time and mileages....  If you are out there and like a challenge, PM me, please

Incidentally I also loaded the original tcx file into my training software, WKO+ (Training Peaks) and it went in just fine.  The whole lot is there, lap section by section, with the exact distances and times for each and the gradients which match the original bikeroutetoaster elevation profile, and my heart rates rising on the hills. I suppose it is another way to demonstrate that I rode somewhere for 668 kms, with an elevation profile exactly matching the submitted course !!!

It's wait and see and be very very patient time now....   

[sbseven]

It would be great if someone out there was able to fix my tcx so it could be loaded into Garmin Connect, where all my other rides are, else I will have to do a manual entry, with just the basic time and mileages....  If you are out there and like a challenge, PM me, please

YHPM

[bikey-mikey]

My sincere thanks to Shaun for sorting everything out for me. 

Seems my file looked fine but was just too large, so at SBS's suggestion, I will use 'smart' recording for future long rides, to keep the file sizes down.

 

[Jaded]

You can also extract the history file from the GPS 'disk' and then run it through GPSBabel to reduce the number of points in it to make it smaller.

[bikey-mikey]

You can also extract the history file from the GPS 'disk' and then run it through GPSBabel to reduce the number of points in it to make it smaller.

Another interesting idea... never know when that might also be useful, since I don't always know just how long I am going to ride for !!

Shaun recommended an editor for xml so I can have a look around and see what's what - fun to play with maybe? - here is the link

http://www.firstobject.com/dn_editor.htm

[sbseven]

You can also extract the history file from the GPS 'disk' and then run it through GPSBabel to reduce the number of points in it to make it smaller.

With the caveat that you'll lose any "lap" data (GPSBabel merges everything to a single lap) and some ancillary data values such as max speed and calories also get lost.

Edit: You might be able to preserve the lap data with some extra processing. Split the laps into separate TCX files, then data point reduce each file (you'd need to know the number of data points in each lap to reduce uniformly) and then re-join all the laps back together again. Could get messy, though.

[frankly frankie]

The point I wanted to make though is that, whilst there are all sorts of excellent reasons to massage, edit or tidy-up a recorded track, submitting it to your Organiser after a DIY isn't one of them.  The Organiser should be looking for raw, unadulterated data - anything else might interfere with the validation process.

[Jaded]

My raw, unadulterated 200km from Friday night is 2.1MB.

I don't like receiving 2MB emails unannounced, (I could be out on the road with a capped service)  and if I had done a 400 or a 600, then we'd be looking at the possibility of exceeding server limits for emails.

[Greenbank]

My raw, unadulterated 200km from Friday night is 2.1MB.

A GSC-10 and a PowerTap make it much more fun since I want data points every second (otherwise the Power data isn't so useful) and the HR, Cadence and Power data is logged in a very inefficient way.

My original tcx file from the K&SW 600 is 64MB.

A single trackpoint looks like this:-

Code: [Select]

<Trackpoint>
<Time>2011-05-28T14:22:57Z</Time>
<Position>
 <LatitudeDegrees>50.356281</LatitudeDegrees>
 <LongitudeDegrees>-4.456987</LongitudeDegrees>
</Position>
<AltitudeMeters>36.099</AltitudeMeters>
<DistanceMeters>287.354</DistanceMeters>
<HeartRateBpm><Value>139</Value></HeartRateBpm>
<Cadence>63</Cadence><SensorState>Present</SensorState>
<Extensions><TPX xmlns="http://www.garmin.com/xmlschemas/ActivityExtension/v2"><Watts>296</Watts></TPX></Extensions>
</Trackpoint>

All of that to store:

2011-05-28T14:22:57Z, 50.356281, -4.456987, 36.099, 287.354, 139, 63, 296

[frankly frankie]

Well I agree with that - in fact my mail client is set up to block any mail bigger than 500Kb because I too am averse to big files flying around.    That way I can stiil receive large files but they are never 'unannounced'.

I wouldn't be banging on about this if the thread title wasn't specifically about DIYxGPS, and this isn't a resonse to anyone in particular but more a general point. 
Obviously if setting out to do a ride like this, you would arrange for your GPS to record a 'reasonable' file - that is, I would suggest, a file of <1Mb, unless it's a very long ride - thinking ahead to what you will be sending back to the Organiser.  A 'reasonable' raw file is infinitely preferable to a massaged-down bigger one, because AUK's file-checking software assumes and expects a raw file(s), and may flag up apparently missing data.

Some GPSs have been set up to record every 1 sec, or every 10 metres (these are not the default settings) and this is how large files get created - the Garmin default 'auto' record setting is far more suitable for general use (Greenbank excepted, obviously  ), giving a file of about 500Kb for a 200.  Recording every second is fine if you are doing some kind of surveying or statistical analysis, but rather pointless in normal use, and for all I know is a significant battery hit.

GPS data is also very compressible - so if you do have a large file(s) to send, zipping it would probably quarter the size at least, if the Organiser is happier with that.

[Jaded]

Ah, zipping - good point.

[bikey-mikey]

Before my accident, all of my training was done on power, so I needed 1 second recording, or the data was not much use....

I still have two different powertaps, one on my time trial bike in a ZIPP sub 9 disc,
 
(http://www.wiggle.co.uk/zipp-sub-9-tubular-rear-disc-wheel-with-powertap/) but there is no point riding a disc on tubs for audaxes.

I have a second one on the still badly accident damaged Felt Carbon, which I have to keep 'as the police recovered it', pending possible use as evidence should it go to court.   

When I was instructed by the physios to get back on the road in a structured recovery training programme, I had to buy a new bike (Ribble Stealth), but I was not getting paid anymore, so I could not afford a third powertap.  However being somewhat daft, I carrried on with 1 second recording, cos that was what I had always done.  Hence a 30 Mb file from my 600.

I have also mentioned elsewhere on the forum how my Garmin battery life is not as long as others around me, and I have also waxed lyrical on my three tecknet 5,000 Mah external batteries (30+ charge hours each).

Yes I know, I'm a twit, and I'm sorry, and I won't do it again.  Promise