Coronavirus and Audax

[Lightning Phil]

I have a 200 postponed from end of March provisionally hoping to run in August. I then have 50,100,200 that normally run third weekend in September.  I’ll continue to work on a four week window for final preparation of the events. I usually have a café start and pub finish for the September events which I’m assuming won’t be possible at the moment.  The delayed March event the social distancing and finish arrangements had already been made in March before events suspended.   I have no plans on any further event preparations  till end of July at the moment.

[Ajax Bay]

Good to have some idea of the plan for a plan.
Let's leave the complications of calendar events (even ones of shorter duration (300k or less?)) to one side at this stage.
Validation of short (<300km ie in a day) Permanents and DIYs may/will be resumed (before other events):
1) "dependent on any further changes to the relevant guidance and legislation" and
2) "[dependent] on individual organisers’ availability and willingness to support them"
On (2) I hope that DIY regional organisers will step up ('availability and willingness') - I reckon the demand is going to be rather less than 'normal' so not quite clear what concerns this caveat is designed to address.
On (1) what do people think are the changes to "relevant guidance and legislation" which are expected/being looked for? I can't think of any guideline or legislation applying to England (?and NI) which proscribes riding or implies a distance limit (even implicitly), provided riders set out from and return home at the start and end (of the day). I suggest a 6 rider limit is specified, the number increasing in line with current UK (applies to England) 'meeting in groups and SD'ing' guidelines.
What am I missing? What is being waited for?
"Organisers will have total discretion over whether events that can go ahead will go ahead." Of course and this is 'no change' - and is a calendar event issue with minimal bearing on Permanents (DIY or otherwise).
Are we (should we be?) waiting for British Cycling to give us the 'OK'? Has BC got a policy on long distance non-competitive riding? Alone? In small groups? If group size limited by COVID-19 considerations it'd be good to know what science is being used to provide the rationale.

[Greenbank]

On (1) what do people think are the changes to "relevant guidance and legislation" which are expected/being looked for? I can't think of any guideline or legislation applying to England (?and NI) which proscribes riding or implies a distance limit (even implicitly), provided riders set out from and return home at the start and end (of the day). I suggest a 6 rider limit is specified, the number increasing in line with current UK (applies to England) 'meeting in groups and SD'ing' guidelines.
What am I missing? What is being waited for?

I'm guessing probably a change to:-

This means you must:

• stay at home as much as possible

...

that is still front and centre on https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus (well it is still there as of 5.20pm on 5th June 2020).

[ Cue the same old discussions about "unlimited exercise" again. Round and round we go... ]

[Jaded]

The R number is up in several regions....

[Davef]

On (1) what do people think are the changes to "relevant guidance and legislation" which are expected/being looked for? I can't think of any guideline or legislation applying to England (?and NI) which proscribes riding or implies a distance limit (even implicitly), provided riders set out from and return home at the start and end (of the day). I suggest a 6 rider limit is specified, the number increasing in line with current UK (applies to England) 'meeting in groups and SD'ing' guidelines.
What am I missing? What is being waited for?

I'm guessing probably a change to:-

This means you must:

• stay at home as much as possible

...

that is still front and centre on https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus (well it is still there as of 5.20pm on 5th June 2020).

[ Cue the same old discussions about "unlimited exercise" again. Round and round we go... ]

“Stay at home as much as possible” has always been the headline. The strictures are being gradually reduced. For example tennis was not possible. Then the guidance was relaxed so that singles was allowed. Then the guidance was relaxed further and doubles is now allowed. You could obviously say no tennis should be played as that is not staying at home as much as possible.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Davef]

From my perspective, in terms of risk I would put a 200km solo ride below tennis and way below visiting the supermarket.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Delph Cyclist]

From my perspective, in terms of risk I would put a 200km solo ride below tennis and way below visiting the supermarket.

But riding a 200km Perm might be considered equivalent to visiting a supermarket, or at least a small village convenience store, unless you carry all your food and drink and  don't need any till receipts.  That's before considering any rescue scenarios if the bike (or the rider) can't complete.  I heard today that the R value in the Northwest is a touch higher than 1, so we've some way to go yet before easing things off locally in my view.

[mattc]

I'm guessing probably a change to:-

This means you must:

• stay at home as much as possible

...

that is still front and centre on https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus (well it is still there as of 5.20pm on 5th June 2020).

[ Cue the same old discussions about "unlimited exercise" again. Round and round we go... ]

I do hope you never slide on snow or ice in the street - that is still illegal in London.

The British legal system operates on a precedent system, and certain laws simply become obsolete over time, generally where society realises they have no benefit.

The government have made their position clear - it is fine to drive across the country to a beach.

[Davef]

From my perspective, in terms of risk I would put a 200km solo ride below tennis and way below visiting the supermarket.

But riding a 200km Perm might be considered equivalent to visiting a supermarket, or at least a small village convenience store, unless you carry all your food and drink and  don't need any till receipts.  That's before considering any rescue scenarios if the bike (or the rider) can't complete.  I heard today that the R value in the Northwest is a touch higher than 1, so we've some way to go yet before easing things off locally in my view.

It really is not that difficult to be self sufficient for 200km, and for much longer if you have water provision. If I needed rescuing it would be by a member of my household. Perhaps rescue provision should be a requirement. Also maybe a register of auk members who are happy to allow access to outside taps.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[FifeingEejit]

It's pretty much been confirmed that the two walkers that were lifted on Beinn a' Chroin were charged with "culpable and reckless conduct", were lifted for the 60-mile journey as much as going up the hill in jeans and trainers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-52892409
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52924865


Seems it's a bit like our Breach of the Peace charge that's well known to be used to fill in gaps when people are beyond taking the piss.


Irish and English laws are a bit different.

[Davef]

It's pretty much been confirmed that the two walkers that were lifted on Beinn a' Chroin were charged with "culpable and reckless conduct", were lifted for the 60-mile journey as much as going up the hill in jeans and trainers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-52892409
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52924865


Seems it's a bit like our Breach of the Peace charge that's well known to be used to fill in gaps when people are beyond taking the piss.


Irish and English laws are a bit different.

But not charged under the coronavirus (Scotland) act ? If they had been properly equipped and/or not needed rescuing, would they still have been charged ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Davef]

The R number is up in several regions....

The R number should be going up in all regions. Easing restrictions increases R. Tightening restrictions reduces R. On top of that the effective R is reduced by the proportion of people who have become immune or dead.

Hopefully the easing of restrictions which inevitably increases R has not increased it to greater than 1.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[perpetual dan]

It's pretty hard to have a clear position when the position isn't clear.  I think it's a pretty good statement.

Indeed.
I got a pretty clear “we’re a volunteer organisation, we’re talking to our volunteers and trying not to over promise” from that. Can we elect the AUK board to government?

[Lightning Phil]

It's pretty much been confirmed that the two walkers that were lifted on Beinn a' Chroin were charged with "culpable and reckless conduct", were lifted for the 60-mile journey as much as going up the hill in jeans and trainers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-52892409
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52924865


Seems it's a bit like our Breach of the Peace charge that's well known to be used to fill in gaps when people are beyond taking the piss.


Irish and English laws are a bit different.

The police can only enforce law though not guidance.  Since Killin MRT do not publish incident reports (like other MRT)  it is not known whether trainers and jeans played any part in the need for rescue.  Trainers are perfectly fine for going up hills, and jeans are fine in good weather. Was it poor weather at the time?  Be interesting to see how this goes once it reaches court.

[FifeingEejit]

It's pretty much been confirmed that the two walkers that were lifted on Beinn a' Chroin were charged with "culpable and reckless conduct", were lifted for the 60-mile journey as much as going up the hill in jeans and trainers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-52892409
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52924865


Seems it's a bit like our Breach of the Peace charge that's well known to be used to fill in gaps when people are beyond taking the piss.


Irish and English laws are a bit different.

But not charged under the coronavirus (Scotland) act ? If they had been properly equipped and/or not needed rescuing, would they still have been charged ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That wouldn't have come to the attention of MR or the Polis.
The later were turning people away from the Rest and Be Thankful the same day and in bits of the Trosachs; but the nature of the charge means it can be used if they feel they can use it for the purpose (as with BotP).

If you don't draw attention to yourself there's less chance of it becoming a problem.

[Davef]

It's pretty much been confirmed that the two walkers that were lifted on Beinn a' Chroin were charged with "culpable and reckless conduct", were lifted for the 60-mile journey as much as going up the hill in jeans and trainers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-52892409
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52924865


Seems it's a bit like our Breach of the Peace charge that's well known to be used to fill in gaps when people are beyond taking the piss.


Irish and English laws are a bit different.

But not charged under the coronavirus (Scotland) act ? If they had been properly equipped and/or not needed rescuing, would they still have been charged ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That wouldn't have come to the attention of MR or the Polis.
The later were turning people away from the Rest and Be Thankful the same day and in bits of the Trosachs; but the nature of the charge means it can be used if they feel they can use it for the purpose (as with BotP).

If you don't draw attention to yourself there's less chance of it becoming a problem.

There is also the fact that (in England at least) you are under no obligation to give your identity to a police officer unless he has reasonable suspicion that you have committed an offence. Without your home address it is difficult to enforce non local travel offences unless you do something else potentially illegal. I think most of the covid charges have been related to gatherings rather than travel.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[FifeingEejit]

It's pretty much been confirmed that the two walkers that were lifted on Beinn a' Chroin were charged with "culpable and reckless conduct", were lifted for the 60-mile journey as much as going up the hill in jeans and trainers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-52892409
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52924865


Seems it's a bit like our Breach of the Peace charge that's well known to be used to fill in gaps when people are beyond taking the piss.


Irish and English laws are a bit different.

The police can only enforce law though not guidance.  Since Killin MRT do not publish incident reports (like other MRT)  it is not known whether trainers and jeans played any part in the need for rescue.  Trainers are perfectly fine for going up hills, and jeans are fine in good weather. Be interesting to see how this goes once it reaches court.

Aye, mind though that if you wobble around the high street making a racket, not pished enough to be lifted for being drunk, too noisy to just be moved on, Breach of the Peace is rolled out for the huckling. That and this are pretty much catch all charges to cover gaps between reasonable conduct and specific offences.

There was concern that they had been done for needing rescued considering that there are plenty of hills you could get in trouble on near the towns (Sidlaws, Arthurs seat etc.) which is probably why the later article came out. The jeans and t-shirt are possibly speculation, but it also seems to read that someone else called MR out.


I've done that hill, there's an interesting scrambly bit on the link from An Caisteal that a friends dog needed some persuasion to do.
The descent was an ice slide that day though, that was also the day I discovered ice burns...

There is also the fact that (in England at least) you are under no obligation to give your identity to a police officer unless he has reasonable suspicion that you have committed an offence. Without your home address it is difficult to enforce non local travel offences unless you do something else potentially illegal. I think most of the covid charges have been related to gatherings rather than travel.

Not totally sure on that one here, the two times my mates got moved on (once while playing street hockey in the street at 7pm one winter, and the other for playing ice hockey on the local tennis courts) I'd gone to the bog in the house. But then handling of kids bothering the curtain twitchers is a bit different.

[FifeingEejit]

Section 13 of Criminal Procedures act
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/46/section/13

Where a constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting that a person has committed or is committing an offence at any place, he may require— etc.

So... by being out on my bike at 2am on midsummers day, am I acting recklessly or breaching the peace. hm.
Knowing what the bastards are like after a mate got done for having a dodgy but perfectly legible number plate after they ran out of tape in their Vascar as he passed them, they'll find something if everything else stacks up ok.

[quixoticgeek]

If they are considering opening up DIY's/Perms first, and on a nation by nation basis, where does that leave RRtY?

My understanding is that RRtY is suspended. Will that continue to be the case until all of the nations can open up equally? How does that work?

J

[FifeingEejit]

Hancock was talking about regional Lockdowns this evenings from what I saw.
So  "events" in England could be about to get much more problematic too.


For the non-points based awards there's a bit of a nightmare in them.
With the exception of RRTY, It's not been stated if the clock is still ticking on them or not.

So say I'm aiming to get  Brevet25k... which I am
This is season 3 of 6 for me (As things currently calculate)
I need a 1300, 1 more SR and 8000km in BR(M)

If the clock is still ticking then it's fineish... might lost a year or more of qualifying time for it who knows, but then so did everyone else trying to do it at the time...

If the clock has stopped on it:
Right now I live in Scotland, if I don't move it's easy enough to say that since events restarted in Scotland on day X then my clock restarted on that day.
Oh wait but I moved to Wales during the 6 year period, now do you have to work off people's address history? Or base it on who organized the DIYs?
What if I lived within comfortable distance of Cornhill on Tweed, right now I could theoretically ride there, start a DIY (if they were active in the North East of England) do the 200 claim it and then ride home... erm... How do you handle that?
What if the North East of England, Foyle, Monmouthshire or Fife gets locked down 3 times in the next year while everywhere else stays open?

It seems to me to be an administrative nightmare you don't want.
But even if rides do get validated in areas that it's acceptable to ride in, people are going to start moaning that they don't count for awards etc.
Suppose that's really just a case of  "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't …” … please all the people all of the time”"
It's just some of  hand tying is created by officially representing more than one "nation" (I did note that the crown dependencies are part of the consideration too)

[mattc]

If they are considering opening up DIY's/Perms first, and on a nation by nation basis, where does that leave RRtY?

I didn't read it like that - it's all nations at once. I think:

We agreed that, in principle, as Audax UK, our preference would be act on a “one nation” basis, with any rule updates taking effect in England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man at the same time. That, we feel, would be the simplest and fairest course of action.

(are you going to ask how it affects PROFS?

*Permanents Ridden On Foreign Soil, but I'm sure everyone knew that!)

[Greenbank]

From my perspective, in terms of risk I would put a 200km solo ride below tennis and way below visiting the supermarket.

And others (including some of the AUK board it would seem) disagree. And that is what ends us with the current position of disagreement.

If you disagree with it I suggest you take it to the AUK forum but, as I've seen so far, people are far less likely to do that under their real name than just rant here semi-anonymously. Some have made the bold move of posting on the AUK forum and discussion is all the better for it.

[Davef]

From my perspective, in terms of risk I would put a 200km solo ride below tennis and way below visiting the supermarket.

And others (including some of the AUK board it would seem) disagree. And that is what ends us with the current position of disagreement.

If you disagree with it I suggest you take it to the AUK forum but, as I've seen so far, people are far less likely to do that under their real name than just rant here semi-anonymously. Some have made the bold move of posting on the AUK forum and discussion is all the better for it.

I don’t have access to the auk forum though I admit I have only had a half hearted attempt. This thread exists. It seems bizarre to say only people with one point of view should post on it and that people with a different point of view should post elsewhere. To describe my post as ranting and that I am not bold enough to post in my own name is insulting.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mattc]

DaveF (and other AUK members!)
You are more than welcome to discuss this here with me and Greenbank! But I would encourage you onto the AUK forum, as it's the only place that board members* are responding to our questions.
(They claim to be reading other stuff, but as they don't respond to any of it, who knows?? They certainly seem deaf to all the members saying GPS perms should have been running for weeks now.)

See you over there? It's no harder than YACF to log into!

*apart from Ambassador Redlight!

[Davef]

DaveF (and other AUK members!)
You are more than welcome to discuss this here with me and Greenbank! But I would encourage you onto the AUK forum, as it's the only place that board members* are responding to our questions.
(They claim to be reading other stuff, but as they don't respond to any of it, who knows?? They certainly seem deaf to all the members saying GPS perms should have been running for weeks now.)

See you over there? It's no harder than YACF to log into!

*apart from Ambassador Redlight!

Ah, well it does appear harder for me. I have tried using my membership number, my email address, the forgot my password link, the register tab all to no avail. I have even taken the extraordinary step of reading the help.

Edit: due to a slight security flaw I have established the user name davef exists but does not appear to associated with my email address so could well be a different davef.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk