Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Health & Fitness => Topic started by: Zoidburg on 15 December, 2009, 08:21:50 pm
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Does anyone else suffer with this?
It was freezing and wet last night on the ride home and I had to stop twice in the space of 15 minutes to get my fingers working again, it hurt enough that it felt like someone had stamped on my fingers.
When it passed everything was ok, it doesn't always happen but exposure to wet cold seems to set it off from time to time. Even with winter gloes on it almost seems like the cold wind on my face is setting off a reaction everywhere else.
I found a touch of frost nip on a toe a month or so back after a wet ride, it blistered after I had a hot shower, it went away but it is a worry. :-\
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More when I was younger. Hands would go white, purple and then eventually a weird orange colour when cold.
Giving up smoking probably helped the most, don't seem to get it so much these days, and never with any pain.
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I suffer from cold hands when the temperature drops to about 10c. I've tried all
sorts of gloves over the years and have not found anything suitable. I've used
neoprene, ski gloves and the Assos triple system without success. Silk or merino
wool liners fail too. I've also tried sheepskin gloves inside of Sealskin waterproof gloves.
I'm now trying a pair of Colombia ski gloves with some Chiba windproof gloves as
an inside pair. There's room for my fingers to move but it's quite bulky. Time will tell
as to whether this combination proves to be a solution. I've discounted using lobster
gloves at the moment because I want the dexterity to use get items out of my rear
pocket on the fly and also to change gears without too much difficulty.
So long as I've got overshoes on I don't have problems with my feet.
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Yup. Not when I'm out riding so much - more when I stop. White/Blue numb hands. And PAIN!
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I have suffered since I was in my teens, my aunties have it as well, it's a simple cold reaction - nothing under lying, I have found the gloves don't seem to make a real difference but the actual temp that your body senses as a whole.
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I remember suffering badly as a paperboy, much pain, but now fingers, mainly middle right, go white these days with no pain. Keep arms warm and the blood to the hand stays warmer.
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I suffer a bit with painful, numb, white fingers when the temp drops.
For me, the following:-
Keep arms warm and the blood to the hand stays warmer.
is absolutely key. If I do that (and to a lesser extent if I make sure my neck is warm) then I don't find myself having issues.
If anything I over insulate my arms in winter (e.g. take the list you have in the "cold commute" thread (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=27105.msg498038#msg498038) except add arm warmers over the LS base layer) even though that makes my arms a bit too warm, since it seems to keep my fingers from dropping off.
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3353/3317197926_538e529f69.jpg)
about an hour after finishing the ride.
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I can do fingers and toes like Ja ded's. Mine don't hurt. Only started within the past decade. If I'm cold in myself, I only need to get a (glass) pint of milk from the fridge.
I think this is Raynaud's phenomenon, not Raynaud's syndrome as I don't have any associated features.
I had chilblains as a kid (mostly outgrown at 14) and then again a few years ago.
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Welcome to a painful club. I get this too, and I think it more associated with change in temp rather than just cold ( it can happen at any time year), it's worse in winter as the changes are greater. Better gloves make little difference.
suggestions
1. Get a bar bag! ride with the hands on the tops behind the bag, this slows the temp drop quite a bit, often enough to avoid the purple/white pain thing, and you just get cold as normal.
2. Just let it happen, and then at the pain stage stop for while, take off your gloves, reheat thoroughly (armits, crotch, wiggling etc.) till good and pink. I then find I can then go for several hours before repeating.
Barry.
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3353/3317197926_538e529f69.jpg)
about an hour after finishing the ride.
It's important to change out of cycling clothes the moment you get home, they are usually a bit damp and the efficient wicking cools the body, the more 'technical' the clothes, the more this happens, putting a sweater on will help. I agree that the wrists and ankles lose a lot of heat, I wear two sets of arm warmers, so there's no gap between them and the gloves. I use a chainsaw while working so there's no escape, the important thing is not to grip the bars tightly and to keep the hands uncurled if possible. You also have to accept being over-dressed and unable to work at maximum power because of it. You can then simply speed up to heat the whole body, The real killer is when it stops raining, the evaporation chills you, and of course downhill where the effort is minimal.
Damon.
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I have made hand cowlings out of cutout PET pop bottles. These have been simply fantastic as they cut the chilling wind out and create a little pocket of warm air on the bars. I have not seen anything similar in the bike shops though.
The cowls are so good I have been able to remove my gloves after a while on even frosty audax rides.
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(http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss226/SgtBikeo/DSCF0037.jpg)
That's my impreshun of E.T.
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I'm like Jaded. It happens *after* I've stopped riding.
I can race into home, get changed even have a hot shower. Bloodflow to fingers still shuts down. I have to be dead careful with sharp things, as I can't feel a thing. Reckon I could slice a finger off and it wouldn't hurt.
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Can cyclists get vibration/white finger?
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Damon's picture is typical VWF which can be caused by chainsaws which are not adequately vibration damped and also by doing lots of miles on a bike.I have it in my middle fingers ,I guess from over 500,000 miles on a bike and virtually no industrial manual work as I am an occupational physician.
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It suffer from this as well and its a pain. It'd ef' RS - It happens at any time e.g. using a computer, driving, cycling and its a real pain, you just have to pain for it to stop.
Joolz
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Mrs Pcolbeck suffers from this. It's a problem with the small capillaries at the extremities (fingers etc). It's not just cold that sets it off though cold does bring it on badly. A heavy carrier bag for example will set it off for her even in 30 deg C heat. No real treatment so far as I know bar keeping the hands (and feet if it affects those too) warm and avoiding too much coffee (which can make it worse) or anything that restricts blood flow to the hands or feet. Smoking as noted above also makes it worse.
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I'm like Jaded. It happens *after* I've stopped riding.
I can race into home, get changed even have a hot shower. Bloodflow to fingers still shuts down. I have to be dead careful with sharp things, as I can't feel a thing. Reckon I could slice a finger off and it wouldn't hurt.
Interesting to search on Raynaud's and find this.
I almost certainly have "raynaud's phenomenon". Much worse now than before, it happens during exercise now and is triggered by changes in temperature. Going from cold to warm can cause a shutdown in circulation to my fingers.
When paddling, unless I wear pogies, it is normal for my fingers to go dead white, no circulation. Rest of me might be boiling hot and sweating, pink palms; fingers will be absolutely dead.
I can warm up afterwards, get circulation going to fingers, get them pink again. Set off on my bike, 5 minutes later they are dead again. Toes ditto. They will be blue and white later. Or look normal when I get off bike, step in a shower, they go white as circulation shuts off.
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I was diagnosed with it a few years ago. The test is fun - it involves sitting with your feet in a bucket of iced water while they measure the levels of blood flow in your ankles. If it drops sharply when you get cold, it is Reynauds.
My symptoms are that, if I once get cold, my blood supply to my feet will shut off and will not re-open until I am properly warm again. I expect there may be other variants but I've not heard of heat or vibration being a trigger.
If it is is bad, there are drugs you can take for it (calcium channel blockers). However, I don't know how well they work. By coincidence, I had to take them for a few weeks after an unrelated operation last summer. I was amused to note, one chilly August evening, that my feet went numb regardless! It may have been that my dosage was different than would be given for Reynauds - but I wouldn't want any higher as what I was on stopped my heart rate getting up on climbs. Essentially, on my evidence, I don't think they would be a good solution for an active cyclist.
Without drugs, the way to manage it is to avoid ever getting cold. In practice this means wearing an extra layer for the first ten minutes of a ride before I've warmed up, taking extra layers to the start of a time trial and avoiding stops where I would cool down as much as possible (eg riding up and down the road when waiting for clubmates at the start of a ride rather than standing around chatting). In the cold of winter, this simply can't be done so the choice is often either do 90% of a ride with numb feet or not at all.
If there is one thing I've learned about it, it would be that combating it is not about keeping my extremities warm with better gloves and socks, but keeping my core temperature from dropping.
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I've suffered with Reynauds for many years (so did my Mum).
I have tried every possible combination of gloves/mitts, to no useful result.
Gloves are no use at all as they isolate your fingers.
The only solution I've found is to use pogies (bar mitts). They create a warm microclimate without restricting what little circulation I have. I wear very floppy thin mitts as well so I can put my disposable hand warmers actually on my fingers inside them. The best pogies are made in Nottingham from the sort of material Carradice use for saddlebags, called Hotpogs! https://www.hotpog.co.uk
I regard them as suitable only for flat bars. I purchased some of another brand that are designed for drop bars, but because they sit vertically they make the bike uncontrollable in even the lightest wind. I need flat bars anyway because I now find it difficult to use drop bar shifters and brakes.
Mine are bright red - it aids visibility! And there's actually room to stash flapjack etc in them. The mid range £60 version - a mere fraction of what I have spent on gloves over the years.
Yes, they do look "distinctive", yes they are a bit clumsy. But it does mean I can trundle round the North Pennines all year round, and that is worth the trade-off.
Avoid neoprene - it does not work for me - or anyone else I know who has Reynaulds.
I also avoid waterproof gloves, which tend to make my hands sweaty, then very cold.
Other advice as above - keep your whole body warm, especially wrists and ankles and neck, where your blood is close to the surface.
Put on warm clothes immediately you stop - I really can't do mid-ride stops in winter any more.
Your GP can prescribe meds, which some folks find very effective, but I want to avoid that route as long as possible
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My post crossed with Franks....
One reason I'm resisting meds for Reynaulds is that the GP said it works by lowering blood pressure. Which ties in with Frank's experience.
My BP is already pretty low, and I really don't want to mess around with it.
The trick is to not let your hands ever even start to get cold, as it is so difficult to get them back again, and can be v. painful
Off the bike, these HotRox are great. Charge up like a mobile phone, switch on and off as required. I will use these to walk to the village shop, help at events etc - cheaper than starting a pack of disposables every time.
I keep them by the back door and use them every day.
https://www.thehotrox.co.uk
I take it we all know about Reynaulds UK? https://www.sruk.co.uk
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I couldn't take drugs to lower my BP. It is already low, I have micro-faints anyway (sight goes purple, pass out for second or two). Omron BP machine confirms my resting BP is mid90s/low60s
thanks for the info, Flite and Frank. I use paddling pogies now and they make a huge difference.
Vibration is a notorious trigger and cause - chainsaw 'white finger' can kill a forester's career.
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A few more tips for anyone new to this problem:
Hands: Try to start out with warm hands.
If you are not at home, hand dryers in the toilets can be useful (but put an elbow under first to warm it up) You can fill your gloves/mitts with warm air too.
Never, never, ever put your gloves/mitts down on the ground - stick them up your jacket.
If possible, bring your bike into a warm room to avoid the shock of cold bars/grips.
Don't wait to see if your hands will warm up - accept that they won't, so get some external heat source on them first.
Feet: I have to use winter cycling boots most of the year.
If I'm not starting from home, I put them in the footwell of the car with the heater on.
Sometimes I put my handwarmers in the boots to warm them up before I put them on.
You can get disposable foot warmers, but they are difficult to control in boots.
Buy a pair of boots at least one or perhaps two sizes larger than normal to allow for one or two pairs of good woollen socks. Currently my favourite socks are Defeet wooly boolies. It is not well advertised, but they come in two cuff lengths - get the longer 6inch cuff, it makes a big difference.
Avoid gaps between your tights and the top of your boots or overshoes, and keep your ankles warm.
Body: Layers, so you can adjust to changing weather. Try to get that magic balance of not getting too hot or too cold.
Food and drink - take a flask with a warm drink, just water will do. I got a posh (expensive) new Coloral bike flask for winter, but an ordinary small SS flask jammed into a cut down standard plastic bike bottle will go in the bottlecage OK.
Eat plenty - if I'm hungry I get cold more easily. But eat on the move or a quick stop, or you will get cold.
If you plan to stop, take extra layers.
It really is a case of lots of little things add up to make a difference.
Any one got any more tips?
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Thank you for this. Very helpful.
Hot hands from Halfords got me through November RRTY. Only the hand version though. They were a dream in my gloves. The foot version was rubbish.
I did a 300km on Saturday and really suffered in 0 degrees for the first three hours. I'm going to buy some better winter tights and a merino base layer to see if that helps. I was heavily layered with winter boots, woolie boolie socks, double gloves, snood, hat, helmet, winter tights, four layers around my body. Still suffered like a dog. Had tea and a sausage sandwich at the first control and was fine after that.
Has anyone any recommendations on merino base layers and rapha winter tights? Women or men version, I don't care as long as they keep me warm(er).
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If you got cold, it's not a question of better clothes, just more of them!
Merino is warm so would be good, especially when you do warm up and start to sweat. But other fabrics would do.
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I was toying with putting another set of tights without a pad over my tights with a pad but I thought it would be too uncomfortable and not something I've done before so doing it on my first 300 would be a bit stupid. Do you do that?
I'm not sure I can physically wear more clothes otherwise!
I've just been avoiding riding in the cold but this was unavoidable.
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Reducing windchill to hands seems to be very very important. I used to have no problems when cycling, but always carried big (water and windproof) overmitts in my jersey pockets. If my hands got chilly, these went on over gloves.
Same when kayaking; I might have arms bare up to the elbows and a sweating body, but my fingers will turn to white blocks of ice. Unless I use pogies. These are just nylon and reflective 'bags' over the paddle shaft. Even if water gets in, they stop windchill, and seem to prevent the temperature shock that triggers the shutdown of capillaries.
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I think reducing windchill on both arms and legs might help and getting wind stopping leggings is another suggestion.
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Thanks, guys. Windstopper leggings are my next move.
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Silk is probably the best in terms of warmth retention, even better than merino. Jasmine silk do very thin silk gloves but these make a tremendous difference to temperature maintenance. they also do "beanie" type silk hats and socks.
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If you get cross country ski leggings they are windproof at the front and breath at the back and have nice stretch. Designed for aerobic activity in cold conditions. You can buy padded undershorts to go under them. I have a pair from Salomon used for cross country skiing but equally good to use them for cycling when its cold.
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Chainsaws are all rated for vibration, and the less vibration they produce, then the longer you can use them within the EU Vibration Directive. Professional saws allow the longest exposure. That's why pros don't use cheap saws.
That has implications for long-distance cycling. Padded bars help, but the forgotten factor is the effect of vibration on feet, which are more directly connected to road vibration. Tyre pressures have the most bearing on vibration, and that leads to using bigger tyres.
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Padded bars help, but the forgotten factor is the effect of vibration on feet, which are more directly connected to road vibration.
Are you sure? I'd say your hands are much more directly connected.
Your feet have the length of a down-tube (or chain-stays) plus the cranks acting as suspension. Your hands just have the stem and some/most of the handlebar.
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It's possible to pad the bars, and wear padded gloves, but there's rarely enough space in cycling shoes to put much padding in. The effects of vibration are related to length of exposure, and numb/tingling feet are one of the symptoms people report after PBP/LEL.
More compliant tyres and wheels are the main safeguard against that.
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I also read somewhere that in fact warm ears make a difference. I've yet to conduct a properly controlled set of trials as to whether warm ears helps reduce the appearance of Reynauds.
(Mine is fairly random, but I think damp may be more of a factor than absolute (lack of) temperature)
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Vibration White Finger is a definite medical Thing.
I'm not sure how much vibration feet get while cycling; there must be some damping but hours awheel add up.
My solid-tyred wheelchair transmits everything to the armrests, which makes outdoor journeys very tiring.
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I also read somewhere that in fact warm ears make a difference. I've yet to conduct a properly controlled set of trials as to whether warm ears helps reduce the appearance of Reynauds.
(Mine is fairly random, but I think damp may be more of a factor than absolute (lack of) temperature)
I can report that I have had a head sodden in sweat and boiling hot (I was wearing a buff, covering my ears) and fingers that were so numb that I could not tell if I were holding a paddle or not.
Cold is not the sole determining factor. It is temperature shock that brings on an 'attack' for me. Come in to the warmth from somewhere cold and circulation to my fingers is as likely to shut down as if I plunged them into ice water.
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It's possible to pad the bars, and wear padded gloves, but there's rarely enough space in cycling shoes to put much padding in. The effects of vibration are related to length of exposure, and numb/tingling feet are one of the symptoms people report after PBP/LEL.
More compliant tyres and wheels are the main safeguard against that.
How about L-shaped cranks?
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Chainsaws are all rated for vibration, and the less vibration they produce, then the longer you can use them within the EU Vibration Directive. Professional saws allow the longest exposure. That's why pros don't use cheap saws.
That has implications for long-distance cycling. Padded bars help, but the forgotten factor is the effect of vibration on feet, which are more directly connected to road vibration. Tyre pressures have the most bearing on vibration, and that leads to using bigger tyres.
Sorry but this is irrelevant unless you can show me that the vibration from the road is of the same frequency and amplitude as that from a chainsaw. In addition you need to look at a triaxial weighted average over a number of years. Just because it is vibration does not mean it is dangerous.
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Going back to clothes:
In really cold weather, I wear two merino base layers. One close fitting with a snug neck (Endura are reasonable price) and over that a tatty old Aldi one. Topped off with a windproof or waterproof jacket with sleeves long enough not to leave gaps.
Tights - bib tights really are warmer than non-bibs - reduces draughts. I stick with the Gore women's bib tights because they have pit zips so I don't have to strip off to go to the loo. The Gore ones work better for pit stops than the Endura women's bib-tights in my experience. Too much information if you are male! I have seen folks wear bib tights with waterproof or windproof MTB type shorts on top for a bit of extra protection - which looked quite comfortable
As someone else has commented, keep your ears warm. I wear a buff in balaclava style to keep the draughts out of my neck and my head. But that is not tight enough to keep my ears warm, so I wear a headband on top to keep my ears close to my head.
I suspect I look like a bag lady who has put on all the clothes I own....
But there aren't too many people to see me in the North Pennines
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I don't wear tights but I expect two pairs might be a bit uncomfortable. I just wear tracksuit bottoms, Ron hill or similar, with an old pair of shorts underneath. When its been really cold I've worn leg warmers underneath, which has worked ok
I mainly focus on having enough layers on my top half.
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Going back to clothes:
The Gore ones work better for pit stops than the Endura women's bib-tights in my experience.
This is great info and just what I need. I've been looking at the Gore ones.
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Gore have put a lot of effort into their women's clothes.
I seem to fit into their ideas of size and shape, but it is a personal thing.
Most irritating thing about a lot of women's kit is fiddly little zips, and shortage of pockets, things worth checking.
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Chainsaws are all rated for vibration, and the less vibration they produce, then the longer you can use them within the EU Vibration Directive. Professional saws allow the longest exposure. That's why pros don't use cheap saws.
That has implications for long-distance cycling. Padded bars help, but the forgotten factor is the effect of vibration on feet, which are more directly connected to road vibration. Tyre pressures have the most bearing on vibration, and that leads to using bigger tyres.
Sorry but this is irrelevant unless you can show me that the vibration from the road is of the same frequency and amplitude as that from a chainsaw. In addition you need to look at a triaxial weighted average over a number of years. Just because it is vibration does not mean it is dangerous.
It would be hard to disentangle the cumulative effects of chainsaw use, motorcycling and cycling in my case. I'm self-employed, so I've only got myself to blame for my Raynaud's/VFW.
One common feature between the chainsaw use and the cycling is being contracted to meet deadlines regardless of weather. That's within the context of PBP qualification, where you can end up riding in poor weather conditions. That's when all the factors discussed upthread come into play; clothing management being one of the most important. The other main factors are the amount of vibration coming through the bars, the length of exposure to that vibration, and the influence of fatigue on posture.
Employers have a duty of care to consider these sort of factors, to provide PPE, and to inform their employees about the risks. As someone who's Googled VFW, I get ambulance-chasing ads to get me to claim against my employer, but that's me. So all I can do is assess the effects of various bits of kit, and prioritise my various activities. The upshot is that I'm unlikely to commit myself to riding in poor weather, as that's likely to cause unpaid pain.
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Vibration white finger and Raynaud's phenomenon are part of my special interest. Whilst I have some disagreements with the industrial injuries advisory Council about the level of proof which I think is generally on the low side, I fully agree with them that there is no evidence that vibration white finger can be caused by motorcycling and the sort of vibration that comes from motorcycling.
Similarly there is no evidence at all that cycling will cause vibration white finger. The most likely event with cycling would be hypothenar hammer syndrome which is damage to the ulnar artery at the base of the wrist.
Relatively poorly recognised factor is that the age of onset of Raynaud's syndrome in men has two peaks, the first as in women in the late teens and early 20s and then another peak in the late 40s/early 50s.
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I'd agree with this statement.
35. A vibration specialist from the Institute of Sound and Vibration Research commented that “the scientific literature is rather patchy, but shows that the vibration on the handlebars of bikes can be of sufficient magnitude to anticipate a risk meriting control measures”...and also that “the potential for vibration on the handlebars of motorbikes to cause the condition is sufficiently well recognised for it to be a matter that is commonly considered as an alternative explanation for symptoms in civil claims for compensation”. In other words, the hazard is well recognised and cases of HAVS can sometimes arise given the right combination of circumstances.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/613918/hand-arm-vibration-syndrome-and-risk-from-motorcycle-handlebars-iiac-information-note.pdf
Chainsaw use, cycling and motorcycling all cause the onset of Raynaud's symptoms in my case. So I adopt control measures. Padding at contact points, amelioration of vibration transmission where possible, and clothing management. I'll never be in a position to put in a claim, which does clear some of the mud from the waters, as I've been technically at work in all three activities, as well as recreationally.
If people want to ride PBP and the qualifiers on stiff frames and wheels, with 23mm tyres pumped up to 100psi+, with a single layer of bar-tape, and insufficient carrying capacity for clothing management, that's entirely their concern.
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<pedant> Raynaud's Phenomenon is not Raynaud's Syndrome/Disease, though it is a feature thereof...
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Pedant avoidance: Which is why I usually just refer to "Reynaulds" :)
I did hear, but don't know if it is true, that every incidence of capillary shut down causes more tissue damage and makes you even more susceptible in future.
Now that is scary. Has anyone else heard this?
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Pedant avoidance: Which is why I usually just refer to "Reynaulds" :)
I did hear, but don't know if it is true, that every incidence of capillary shut down causes more tissue damage and makes you even more susceptible in future.
Now that is scary. Has anyone else heard this?
Not true. Raynaud's results in loss of skin blood flow not whole finger blood flow.
Helly, I agree but as most so called raynaud's Syndrome is prodromal for something else there are probably very few true cases of Syndrome and loads of phenomenon.
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Flite, I suspect short-term capillary shut-down does little long-term damage.
Anecdata: my grandfather's fingers went white for decades but he died at 94 with all his digits in situ. My digits also go white when cold but are usually in good condition, with no signs of gangrene or permanent damage.
Limbs withstand poor or no blood flow for MUCH longer than vital organs like heart or brain. There are limits though.
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Thank you Helly and Chris.
That has cheered me up!
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Can I throw into the mix that numbness and discoloured fingers/nails can be caused by a clot in an artery? It hurts too, which in general Raynaud's doesn't.
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Clot in an artery is a surgical emergency:
DO NOT PASS GO!
GO DIRECTLY TO HOSPITAL!
Consider asking someone to give you small amounts of cash for inevitable incidentals in the fullness of time...
An extremity with a blocked artery is
Pale
Painful (agonising, unbearable)
Pulseless
Perishingly cold
Numb (Paraesthesia)
Delay can cause loss of limb so act PDQ!
Arterial disease is one of the awful underpublicised problems caused by smoking.
A clot from a heart with atrial fibrillation can migrate.
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<pedant> Raynaud's Phenomenon is not Raynaud's Syndrome/Disease, though it is a feature thereof...
The whole area is usually referred to as 'Hand Arm Vibration Syndrome'.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/vibration/hav/index.htm
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To demonstrate how 'stupid' raynaud's, this morning I rode in with fingerless mitts. 9C, don't need gloves. Hands were fine, got to work with them slightly cool. Pop into work shower. Hot water hits them, circulation immediately shuts down. Then a minute later pins and needles as they wake up "Oh, warmth, circulation can be restored.".
FFS
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Is it possible to have Raynaud's in the feet?
Anyone else have similar symptoms?
If so what do you do about it?
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What are you currently wearing? Properly winter ❄️ day today.
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I get white toes most of the year.
Mine are not painful.
I ignore.
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1) mine are effin' painful in the shower
b) today, in my unheated office, warm socks, shorts and a merino top, later in the gym on the turbo (unheated) same socks, shorts and a t-shirt until warm
It's the only bit of me I have trouble keeping warm on winter rides
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Me too. Full winter fig today, including Northwave Arctic boots. Lasted an hour before the usual numbness set in, cold when I got home half an hour later. Soon warmed in the shower, but now, sitting watching the TV, they’re getting cold again. Just poor circulation I think. I get cold numb toes on the shed turbo too.
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Raynaud’s geek here. Do they actually go white circumferentially or just pale and blotchy? Full Raynauds is usually numb when white and painful on rewarding.
Cold painful digits is more likely to be some form of chilblains or perniosis.
You can certainly get it in the feet. More common in cold humid conditions.
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Toes go what I would describe as waxy, then go plum or grape purple on rewarming in the shower.
Numb when white is a good description, I didn't notice it until showering this evening. In my case normally followed by increased sensitivity afterwards, just sitting here my feet are buzzing/burning/stinging
I'm also wondering any T1D link to raise with the consultant next month?
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I was going to say do diabetic peeps not really need to look after their feets due to neuropathy?
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My toes go dead, waxy white.
My fingers seldom do this but it has been known.
I had chilblains as a kid and again in my 40s. My fatty bits go purplish.
I refuse to worry about this as it affected my grandfather, who lived to a ripe old age without this being a problem. He had vascular dementia towards the end though. (Something has to go when you're widowed and in your mid 90s.)
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Ely Dave, yes one can get Reynauds in the feet as well as the hands. SRUK Is as excellent uk based mine of information regarding this often painful condition.
I get identical symptoms as yourself. With regard to cycling, I bought a pair of Northwave Celcius Arctic boots five years ago. I place them in the airing cupboard (in a bin liner) overnight. Good for about 90 minutes in near freezing conditions.
I wonder if diabetes plays a part. Are you T1? I have some pre diabetes symptoms.
Grandmother and Mum and her 5 siblings all type 2 from 50 years. 3 uncles had heart bypasses at around 60 none particularly overweight. I'm 60 in January 2021. I run and cycle to keep fit and healthy. Diabetes can lead to peripheral neuropathy, so I conclude the two are linked. I used to enjoy long winter rides but getting numb hands and feet precludes this.
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Primary Raynauds can present for the first time in the 50s especially in men. The nerve fibres controlling temperature and blood flow are really small and may well be the first to be damaged even in well controlled diabetic neuropathy.
I have a sort of inkling that there is a variant of diabetic neuropathy which presents like this but I will need to look up some off my more esoteric Endnote library files
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I am T1, from age 39, now 46. These symtoms predate my diagnosis by a couple of years, but do seem worse these days.
Yes- winter boots - Louis Garneau in my case
Socks - either mid-calf length thick toe-socks, or silk liner socks and thin merino socks on top.
No general loss of sensation or other diabetic foot-related issues, and I've always passed the filament test every year, but I am conscious of the risk.
Could extensive running be a contributor, in a similar fashion to VWF?
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Didn't want to derail the other thread (which is specifically about feet) but it reminded me that I'm fairly sure I've developed Raynaud's. Fingers go white and numb, then warming them up once inside is really painful. I've basically given up cycling in the winter because I just can't keep any feeling in my fingers and toes.
I think it's got worse over time - I certainly don't remember it being anywhere near as bad before the past few years. Is this something that can just develop? I'm wondering whether it might be caused by something, and if so, whether there's anything I can do to help!
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https://sci-hub.se/10.2174/157339912800564034 (https://sci-hub.se/10.2174/157339912800564034)
Will access a good review article but I can find others
NO extensive running would not be similar to VWF.
However NFCI or Non-Freezing Cold Injury is a real possibility. I see a number of cases of this.
http://militaryhealth.bmj.com/content/157/1/79.abstract (http://militaryhealth.bmj.com/content/157/1/79.abstract) paper herehttps://sci-hub.se/10.1136/jramc-157-01-14 (https://sci-hub.se/10.1136/jramc-157-01-14)
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Raynauds does develop at different times although the commonest age is in the second/third decade. That is known as primary raynaud's. Secondary raynaud's can be associated with about a hundred different conditions which are beyond the capability of the internet to diagnose.
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As I've got older and developed quite severe arthritis in my hands, the Reynaulds has also got worse.
I suppose having twisted and distorted fingers doesn't help the blood flow. Each problem makes the other worse.
Don't give up!
Get a flat bar bike and fit pogies/barmitts. I strongly recommend Hot Pogs, made in Nottingham in the sort of material used for Carradice saddlebags. I've never worked out why it works so much better than gloves/mitts, but it really does! Inside you create a little microclimate and can wear extra mitts, use disposable handwarmers, grow bananas...
So far this autumn I've managed without hotpogs - just Buffalo mitts which are also amazing.
But lower than minus 5 last night, so it's pogie time.
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To add in here, but not attempting derail, it's only my feet.
Winter gear for me for real low temps (down to about -2 to -3), I don't tend to go out when it's lower than that due to the ice risk
top down
- fleece-lined skullcap under helmet, covers ears
- fleece lined snood around neck/mouth
- merino baselayer, softshell with fleecy inside, waterproof if required
- silk liner gloves and either thermal gloves or lobster mitts
- roubaix lined tights, one pair does have winstopper on the knees/lower legs
- silk liner socks, merino socks, winter boots
The rest of my body is absolutely toasty, and in particular my hands, to the point of sweatiness.
It's only ever been my feet that suffer, whether on upright or recumbent
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Didn't want to derail the other thread (which is specifically about feet) but it reminded me that I'm fairly sure I've developed Raynaud's. Fingers go white and numb, then warming them up once inside is really painful. I've basically given up cycling in the winter because I just can't keep any feeling in my fingers and toes.
I think it's got worse over time - I certainly don't remember it being anywhere near as bad before the past few years. Is this something that can just develop? I'm wondering whether it might be caused by something, and if so, whether there's anything I can do to help!
If it is Raynaud's, you need to avoid sudden temperature changes. Going from cold to hot can trigger complete shutdown of circulation.
I could be paddling or cycling, out in the cold. Fingers ok.
Come inside to a warm room, or take a hot shower; circulation shuts down, fingers are dead white (usually just up to the first knuckle, sometimes up to my palms). Takes ages to get circulation back.
So:
Avoid sudden temperature changes (which can mean always using gloves).
Swing arms around to help re-open blood vessels.
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I strongly recommend Hot Pogs, made in Nottingham in the sort of material used for Carradice saddlebags. I've never worked out why it works so much better than gloves/mitts, but it really does!
Air is a poor thermal conductor. It’s why down works so well. It’s not the down per say that’s keeping you warm, but the loft which is trapping air. So with pogies you are creating quite a large area of still air round your hands which significantly reduces convention and conduction heat loses. Gloves or mitts don’t have a chance in comparison.
It’s also why shoes with thin socks and plenty of toe wriggle room are warmer than putting thicker socks on.
Same with why mitts are better than gloves. All that trapped still air.
Same reason string vests are so warm.
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In he last week I have developed white fingers when going outside, but only on two occasions (and not when it was snowing/sledding weather). In the past I have cycled in all weathers with no issues, so this seems "sudden onset" - possibly covid stress. Fingers white but not painful.
Being lightweight I already was wearing coat, jumper, two hats and three wool buffs. Do I really need to be working on layering the core or can I just focus on gloves/socks?
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If it's not painful and you don't feel too cold in general, I wouldn't be too bothered.
It's unlikely your fingers will drop off or that you'll get frostbite.
Ignore, keep comfortable, don't fret!
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Thank you helly, I have been worrying about the possible implications, so your post is a real relief.
...
though I will use this as justification to buy new gloves, warmer socks and I'm sure a front fairing for the trike will help ...
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I think it justifies a velomobile to be honest;)
More seriously, I’ve had white finger on and off for years (30+). Usually when I stop exercising in winter. They can be impressively white by the time I shower, but go pink again with a a bit of movement and warming up. Still attached and working.
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OK nerd alert
You have not given us anywhere near enough information to make any suggestions really. what do you mean by white fingers? solid white, blotchy
Raynaud's is episodic, cold induces, circumferential blanching extending from the fingertips proximally. attacks usually last 20minutes. this is followed by progressive rewarming, intense red/purple colour and hot aches.
Non-Freezing cold injury can have colour change, without raynauds, along with sensory loss in the cold and burning pain. Seen in people who were born and/or lived their lives abroad then spend time in the cold and wet. Real problem in the military but we also see it in outdoor workers and possibly in people doing water sports in the winter
perniosis or chilblains is another possibility where the red accentuates the pallor of the other skin.
blotchy blanching lasting a few minutes and associated with tingling is pretty normal and may increase with age. I have noticed it myself for the first time this winter quite a few times after long walks even when not truly frosty.
if it happens again grab some photos. if it resolves too fast to get photos it is not raynauds and almost certainly not something to worry about.
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Thank you helly, I have been worrying about the possible implications, so your post is a real relief.
...
though I will use this as justification to buy new gloves, warmer socks and I'm sure a front fairing for the trike will help ...
Sounds fair!
I think my late grandfather had white fingers; he lived past 94...
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This is from wikipedia(!) for comparison
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Raynaud_syndrome_on_female_airman%27s_hand.jpg)
Chris is right of course - he’s a man who knows hands.
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Now that picture would really make me consider hypo the ar hammer syndrome and ulnar artery thrombosis!
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It’s not mine!!
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Thankfully 😀
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So, like mike's photo but index and half of ring finger on both hands. Not bike related, just pushing daughter on the swing at the park. Today's was much milder, some persistent whiteness of the fingers, but I was in the garden in the sleet for maybe 20 mins and had glove liners and lobster gloves.
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How long were your fingers white and how long did the whiteness persist once you were indoors?
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Gloves and mittens with battery powered electric heating elements are available, but they're not cheap.
https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_GB/product/solano-heated-mitts/
https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_GB/product/solano-heated-gloves/
Ski shops sell chemical hand warmers to go inside gloves. Have you tried these?
AIUI, the body responds to overall chilling by reducing blood flow to the extremities. Raynaud's would appear to be an extreme example of this behavior. So keeping the core warm certainly won't hurt, and might be helping a tiny bit.
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I think battery-powered clothing would EAT batteries and provide scant heat for only a short while; I briefly investigated this for D's astronomy use.
Wheat bags you can warm in the microwave might be a more economical heat source.
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If they were truly like mikes photo then Raynauds is probable. Classified into 2 types, primary and secondary. If it happens again get a photo and see your GP.
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How long were your fingers white and how long did the whiteness persist once you were indoors?
dunno, I didn't notice while outside. Got in, gloves off ... hmmm fingers are white! Ran them under the tap for a minute or so and they were back to normal.