Start time for a 200

[citoyen]

Discussing this with adamski yesterday got me to thinking some more…

Is there anything in the rules to say you must have one set start time? I’ve had a look through the orgs handbook (last updated 2017) and can’t see anything to that effect. (Can’t see any advice in start time at all, but I did only scan through - will have a proper look later at my desk.)

In current circumstances, riders are necessarily starting in waves, but would there be any reason not to stick with that if/when things ever return to normal?

I’m thinking about either multiple start times, with riders free to choose which suits them, or a free start time within a certain period (eg between 7am-9am). The rider’s start time would be logged as the time they collect their brevet card (or when they check in at the start on the e-brevet). (Don’t they do it this way in France already?)

How does that sound? I’ll make enquiries with my organising delegate, but would be interested in what people generally think of the idea.

One thing that occurs to me is that timings for intermediate controls on the brevet card would have to be given as elapsed time rather than time of day. Anything else of a practical nature to consider here? I expect I’d be making work for myself as organiser but I’m ok with that.

[citoyen]

Obviously big events with large fields already have wave starts, so it’s clearly within the rules, but is there any reason why smaller events can’t do the same?

[quixoticgeek]

Don't BRM events have a fixed time? Cos they have the rule that you can start upto 1 hour late, tho lose upto the hour off the time limit in doing so?

J

[perpetual dan]

As a rider with little commitment to group starts it sounds fine.
I imagine the logistics of giving last minute advice, route changes, and recording brevet time accurately for each rider during the bulge in start times will need some rehearsal. E.g. It may be better suited to a hall start than a car park in the rain.

[citoyen]

I’ve always assumed late starts were at organiser’s discretion. I may be wrong!

[quixoticgeek]

I’ve always assumed late starts were at organiser’s discretion. I may be wrong!

For BRM's it's in the rules. For AUK special magic BR, I think it is as you say.

J

[grams]

For BRM's it's in the rules. For AUK special magic BR, I think it is as you say.

"BRM"s in the UK don't use the standard ACP BRM rules, they use BR with a few tweaks, which don't include the start time rule.

If you turn up at 8:55 the chance of finding anything but a locked village hall are quite slim. Not sure how it is in the rest of the world.

[quixoticgeek]

For BRM's it's in the rules. For AUK special magic BR, I think it is as you say.

"BRM"s in the UK don't use the standard ACP BRM rules, they use BR with a few tweaks, which don't include the start time rule.

If you turn up at 8:55 the chance of finding anything but a locked village hall are quite slim. Not sure how it is in the rest of the world.

Erm, aren't the BRM rules supposed to be the same everywhere?

Why does AUK have to be special?!?

J

[citoyen]

As a rider with little commitment to group starts it sounds fine.
I imagine the logistics of giving last minute advice, route changes, and recording brevet time accurately for each rider during the bulge in start times will need some rehearsal. E.g. It may be better suited to a hall start than a car park in the rain.

Yes, would probably have to do that via notices (or emails sent out ahead)

I’m envisaging the free start model working on a first come first served basis, and if lots of people want to start at the same time they would have to queue.

[grams]

Erm, aren't the BRM rules supposed to be the same everywhere?

No, they only need to be similar enough for ACP to accept them as an equal achievement. I think that's what "homologation" means.

We've had a thread before about how audax practices differ around the world.

As a rider with little commitment to group starts it sounds fine.
I imagine the logistics of giving last minute advice, route changes, and recording brevet time accurately for each rider during the bulge in start times will need some rehearsal. E.g. It may be better suited to a hall start than a car park in the rain.

I've definitely been to events where people are called forward in groups of 10-20 to be briefed before setting off. Never seemed a problem. The hard part is recording start times (it was the bottleneck at the last PBP), but hopefully the spread is small enough not to matter.

tbh if your spiel is longer than a minute the chance of it being listened to or remembered are quite slim.

[quixoticgeek]

No, they only need to be similar enough for ACP to accept them as an equal achievement. I think that's what "homologation" means.

We've had a thread before about how audax practices differ around the world.

Fnnngh, the one hour rule makes a lot of sense if there are issues with traffic or trains etc...


J

[grams]

Fnnngh, the one hour rule makes a lot of sense if there are issues with traffic or trains etc...

Thanks to the wonders of technology you can phone ahead and any decent organiser will either hang around for you or leave it under a rock or whatever.

[citoyen]

I've been on events where the organiser has been required to vacate the start by a certain time (eg because of other activities using the same venue during the day). If you impose a one hour rule on them, they'd just have to move the official start time one hour earlier.

[L CC]

I think the only reasons for a fixed start time are a) control opening & closing times as printed in the brevet card b) organiser hanging around at the start and c) convention.

Doesn't the Dartmoor Devil have an 8 and a 9am version in normal times?

Also did a Start of Summertime with a fixed start wave (inevitably, despite my telling them, at a different time than the time they gave Mr Smith on the front of the tandem).

ETA: when I've done BRM in That France I've had to write in my own control time. They don't always have event specific printed cards like we do.

[Lightning Phil]

Yes pre pandemic Stevenage Start of Summertime audaxes had about 5 waves , 5 mins apart.

[citoyen]

I think the only reasons for a fixed start time are a) control opening & closing times as printed in the brevet card

Yes, this is a tricky one. Details on the brevet card are set up automatically by the system based on the start time and control distances. There's no option to give the start time as a range, or to manually alter the timings on the brevet card (at least, I don't think there is - unless you list them all as info controls and put extra details in the info question field)

b) organiser hanging around at the start

For me, this isn't an issue - I have other shorter events running on the same day with later start times, so could in theory allow a rider on the 200 to start up to three hours late. (In reality, I'd far rather they didn't.)

and c) convention.

Which seems to be the reason for most AUK practices.

Also did a Start of Summertime with a fixed start wave (inevitably, despite my telling them, at a different time than the time they gave Mr Smith on the front of the tandem).

 

[citoyen]

I've definitely been to events where people are called forward in groups of 10-20 to be briefed before setting off. Never seemed a problem. The hard part is recording start times (it was the bottleneck at the last PBP), but hopefully the spread is small enough not to matter.

Yeah, I think in those circumstances you just give a blanket start time and riders have to accept that their actual start time may be a few minutes later. In the unlikely event that they end up finishing OTL as a result, the organiser can apply common sense and reflect this in the recorded finish time.

[Lightning Phil]

I've definitely been to events where people are called forward in groups of 10-20 to be briefed before setting off. Never seemed a problem. The hard part is recording start times (it was the bottleneck at the last PBP), but hopefully the spread is small enough not to matter.

Yeah, I think in those circumstances you just give a blanket start time and riders have to accept that their actual start time may be a few minutes later. In the unlikely event that they end up finishing OTL as a result, the organiser can apply common sense and reflect this in the recorded finish time.

Last September for two of my 200s I made the finish an info. After the last waves had gone I stuck a sticker on back of sign with the answers.  I returned to removed it at the time limit of the last waves. In theory someone in first wave , 30 mins over time, would have seen answer. But I could judge likelihood of that by looking at penultimate control where a receipt was required.

I’d put the above measure in my Covid risk assessments and it had been accepted.  The above beat sitting for a few hours in a car park, in a park at night, during a pandemic. I also accepted GPS track logs as agreed with my calendar event rep as part of risk assessment.

This September I’m hoping to be back to the pub finish.

[drossall]

As a full value rider I’d rather finish in the dark than get up earlier. Outside mid summer I’ll be finishing in the dark whatever happens.

I broadly agree. I rarely get to an event starting earlier than 8am, and even that's a challenge for those further from home. Getting up early is disruptive for my wife, for a start, and I'm not that keen myself. And yes, I also go for Saturday events in preference for Sunday.

[Lightning Phil]

For LLEL this Wed you can start between 10pm and 11pm with time recorded you pick up brevet. So pick up brevet when ready to go. The card will no doubt have the nominal 10pm start time in it for control times.  But no different to the PBP brevet really.

I think it’s really down to how much work you want to create for yourself and any volunteers. If something is mostly x rated it makes things easier, just ensure later commercial controls will be open for the last starters assuming they are full value. Also check route still works well if later start and full value.

[citoyen]

For LLEL this Wed you can start between 10pm and 11pm with time recorded you pick up brevet. So pick up brevet when ready to go. The card will no doubt have the nominal 10pm start time in it for control times.  But no different to the PBP brevet really.

That's good to know - I wouldn't be setting a precedent!

[grams]

To emulate PBP you'd have to print the closing times for the last group.

[Lightning Phil]

To emulate PBP you'd have to print the closing times for the last group.

Unless it’s the 2015 PBP brevet card which just had closing time of first wave of your start.

[Croft]

I've certainly started a few 200s upward of an hour late (with agreement from the organiser) simply because earliest train prevents anything earlier. Makes it a bit of mad dash to the first control, but generally, as typically a first quarter to mid-position rider, this has been doable. Having a formal late option start would certainly make that start more enjoyable. As a non car person, I am reliant on trains, budget hotels or rides to the start from home.

Kent may be too much of a public transport desert, but perhaps worth checking if there are any other train options to more distant, earlier, stations with a slightly longer ride to the start?

[frankly frankie]

Yes, this is a tricky one. Details on the brevet card are set up automatically by the system based on the start time and control distances. There's no option to give the start time as a range, or to manually alter the timings on the brevet card (at least, I don't think there is - unless you list them all as info controls and put extra details in the info question field)

Just as a point of information on the practicalities - as Organiser you can alter the intermediate (and finish) times as printed in the brevet card.  Each pair of times is editable, or to be more accurate can be overridden with any text of your choosing, in the dialog where you set up the controls.  It's not very obvious - it's not meant to be.**
So for example if your first control is a cafe at 57km the computed times would be 09:54 - 11:48 but if you know the cafe won't open until 10 o'clock you can (should) substitute the text 10:00 - 11:48.
If you wanted to allow a 1h start window you could even replace that with 10:00 - 11:48/12:48, and similarly for the other controls.  Although unless a control is staffed by a volunteer I don't see any point in being anal about intermediate passing times (IMHO).

** there's no option to edit the Start Time (as displayed on the card) to indicate a 'start window' but if theres a demand for it (because of the 'new normal') I would be very happy after discussion with Ian H to add this.  There's not really a lot of point as long as cards are handed out at the start anyway - there's already a box to write the actual time into.  If you want to indicate in the Calendar that there is a range of start times, that can only currently be done in your event description texts (ie there's no data field for 'Start Closing Time' - and even if there was, the new website wouldn't know what to do with it).