Author Topic: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?  (Read 65142 times)

Euan Uzami

Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
« Reply #150 on: 25 January, 2013, 10:39:22 pm »
right, the reason it doesn't load is because bikeroutetoaster downloads it with an old schema specification
so if you change the first lines of the file from

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<gpx xmlns="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/0"

to

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<gpx xmlns="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1"

then it loads. (bikeroutetoaster's fault, basically  ;) )

I can probably do something about that.

Panoramix, the create route works by specifying 8 via points per segment. So if there's only one segment in the whole route, then there's only 8 via points in the whole route. If there's 10 segments, that's 80 via points in the whole route - much more accurate.

I just tried it and with it all as one segment the created route goes out of Rennes on the N12, but if I split at Montfort-sur-meu, then click create route, the created route goes out on the D125, I presume that's the route you're more likely to follow. (This is on car mode.)

To split into multiple segments, Right click -> Edit -> Split here. A good starting point is to split at your controls, or every 50k or so. The route will be more likely to follow the track exactly the shorter each segment is.

I'll think about doing it automatically as it does seem a bit of a stumbling block.

Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
« Reply #151 on: 26 January, 2013, 10:17:19 am »
Not that it really matters to me (because the site works how I want it to for the most part), but I'm confused  ??? by the "8 points per segment" explanation.

When I load the track I previously filtered down to 500 on bikehike.. it seems to be a single segment.   Without splitting it before route creation:
If I leave in car mode it creates 75 via points (and leaves Rennes on the N12)
If I change to walk it creates 215 via points (and leaves Rennes on the D125

Euan Uzami

Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
« Reply #152 on: 26 January, 2013, 11:08:23 am »
Not that it really matters to me (because the site works how I want it to for the most part), but I'm confused  ??? by the "8 points per segment" explanation.

When I load the track I previously filtered down to 500 on bikehike.. it seems to be a single segment.   Without splitting it before route creation:
If I leave in car mode it creates 75 via points (and leaves Rennes on the N12)
If I change to walk it creates 215 via points (and leaves Rennes on the D125

Yep, there is still only one segment. The reason it's generating more points is not because there are more segments.

When you use walking mode as opposed to car mode, the set of points that it's asking google for a route through is exactly the same set of 8 points. The difference is that in walking mode, google needs to send back more route points to specify the route correctly, than it does in car mode.

Don't forget I'm not sending google the whole track - I'm only sending it the track reduced to 8 points. This is because it has a limit of 8 via points for a route request.

What it's doing there is saying "give me the route from Rennes back to Rennes, via these 8 points in between - in a car." In other words, if you were driving the audax and the controls were the 8 points that the track reduces to, then that's the way you'd go.
But by splitting it, what you're doing is saying "give me the route from Rennes to Montfort-sur-meu via these 8 points that are between Rennes and Montfort-sur-meu (rather than spread out between Rennes and Rennes) and then, do the same from Montfort-sur-meu and ... (the next place you split it).
If you split it into 5 segments, it's making google do 5 times more work than it is if you leave it as 1.

Why walking gives more points:
To give an analogy: if I drew a track from nottinghamshire to penzance (that just happens to, for the sake of argument, reduce to newark, leicester, coventry, birmingham, gloucester, bristol, exeter) then if you asked me to describe the shortest route there via those 8 places I would say, right - A46, M69, M6, M42, M5, A30. There you go - only 6 route points. But if you asked me to describe the way walking via those *same* 8 places, then it would contain a lot more than those 6 points as you wouldn't go on motorways but would take a much more laney route.
Now, if instead you first asked me to route to leicester, via 8 little villages between here and leicester, then even in car mode it wouldn't just go straight down the A46 because it would have to go through all the little villages.
That is how I intended the create route function to work. And I am hoping users get into the habit of keeping tracks logically grouped into segments as they make sense for other purposes (rerouting, elevation, etc) as well.
However, it's often unclear that (especially with tracks created elsewhere) the splitting process is necessary for the route to be vaguely accurate to the track - so I will look to making it more automatic; it's only a first stab so I can certainly adapt it to make it easier for users.

Using walking mode is sort of "cheating" - it's the wrong way of achieving the end of getting it to generate the increased amount of points that you want. The only reason it's bad is that it could route you down a footpath that is uncycleable (albeit legal in france iirc.) But it's understandable, it's not your fault - I should make it less cumbersome to do it using car mode (which imho it should be), as it is it's a bit of a burden on the user to have to split it down into separate segments in order to get the route to be accurate.

What I will probably do is instead of simply using 8 via points per each segment, use 8 via points per 50km or so - no matter how many segments there are. I suppose it would be good for me to keep my eye on the fact that while the user may want to split tracks into segments, they shouldn't have to understand segments in order to use it.


Toady

Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
« Reply #153 on: 26 January, 2013, 10:08:55 pm »
This is great, I've been doing my summer tour route planning on it.  A few comments.

  • You don't save the elevation in the gpx file, so if I save it to file then reload it, you've lost the elevation plot. :(
  • The elevation box often hides the "xkm seg y of z" box, and sometimes you want to see both (eg trying to figure out where the summit of a hill is)*
  • When you place a waypoint initially, sometimes it is dropped in a really crazy location and you have to drag it a long way to it's ultimate destination.
  • The "Rename" button on the waypoint dialogue would be better named just "OK" because when you first place a waypoint you're not really renaming it.

*Locating the positions of hills on the route is something I really want to do.  I do it by guessing the number of km (from the elevation plot) then finding that position usig the "x km" box.  Is there an easier way?

Euan Uzami

Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
« Reply #154 on: 26 January, 2013, 10:34:40 pm »
    This is great, I've been doing my summer tour route planning on it.  A few comments.

    • You don't save the elevation in the gpx file, so if I save it to file then reload it, you've lost the elevation plot. :(
    It doesn't save it in the file, no.
    Saving it in the file is slightly harder because for reasons that are possibly a bit technical and are best known to google it doesn't have exactly one point on the graph per point on the track.

    However, if you reload it, it should just recalculate it again.


    Quote
    The elevation box often hides the "xkm seg y of z" box, and sometimes you want to see both (eg trying to figure out where the summit of a hill is)*[/li][li]
    yes, I've noticed that, I will look into putting it at the bottom right instead of bottom middle/left.


    Quote
    When you place a waypoint initially, sometimes it is dropped in a really crazy location and you have to drag it a long way to it's ultimate destination.[/li][li]
    When you right-click to get the menu up, the position at which you right clicked, that's where the waypoint goes.  :)

    Quote
    The "Rename" button on the waypoint dialogue would be better named just "OK" because when you first place a waypoint you're not really renaming it.[/li][/list]
    OK good point i'll think about that

    Quote
    *Locating the positions of hills on the route is something I really want to do.  I do it by guessing the number of km (from the elevation plot) then finding that position usig the "x km" box.  Is there an easier way?
    Soon I am hoping to have it so that when you click on the graph it will put a marker at the point on the track that that corresponds to.


    Thanks for the comments!
    [/list]

    Toady

    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #155 on: 26 January, 2013, 11:40:23 pm »
    You don't save the elevation in the gpx file, so if I save it to file then reload it, you've lost the elevation plot. :(

    It doesn't save it in the file, no.
    Saving it in the file is slightly harder because for reasons that are possibly a bit technical and are best known to google it doesn't have exactly one point on the graph per point on the track.

    However, if you reload it, it should just recalculate it again.
    Doesn't seem to.  Just shows a blank white empty elevation box.  Do I need to do something else?
    This is quite important to me because I want to send the routes with elevations to my touring buddies, and I want to keep opening them, fiddling with them, then saving them.

    Thanks for the advice on how to create waypoints.

    Looking forward to the "find a hilltop" clicky marker feature.

    Oh and ctrl-Z as a shortcut for undo last would be good, as it's hardwired in my brain.

    frankly frankie

    • I kid you not
      • Fuchsiaphile
    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #156 on: 27 January, 2013, 10:11:41 am »
    Ben's developing a really fantastic project here, so the following is in no way dissing what he's done ...

    *Locating the positions of hills on the route is something I really want to do.  I do it by guessing the number of km (from the elevation plot) then finding that position usig the "x km" box.  Is there an easier way?

    You can save out a Track and then run it through BikeRouteToaster (upload/download) and that will add elevations.  On some GPSs (the Etrex30 is one) you can use 'Where To' to 'navigate' that Track, and if you have the 'Waypoint at Next' and 'Distance to Next' data fields showing, it will automatically mark the next 'high point' and the distance to it.  (Likewise with 'low points'.)
    It would look like this except in the box under 'next point' it would say 'high point'.

    The same models can also do this:
    when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

    Panoramix

    • .--. .- -. --- .-. .- -- .. -..-
    • Suus cuique crepitus bene olet
      • Some routes
    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #157 on: 27 January, 2013, 02:01:22 pm »

    Panoramix, the create route works by specifying 8 via points per segment. So if there's only one segment in the whole route, then there's only 8 via points in the whole route. If there's 10 segments, that's 80 via points in the whole route - much more accurate.

    I just tried it and with it all as one segment the created route goes out of Rennes on the N12, but if I split at Montfort-sur-meu, then click create route, the created route goes out on the D125, I presume that's the route you're more likely to follow. (This is on car mode.)

    To split into multiple segments, Right click -> Edit -> Split here. A good starting point is to split at your controls, or every 50k or so. The route will be more likely to follow the track exactly the shorter each segment is.

    I'll think about doing it automatically as it does seem a bit of a stumbling block.

    Thank you, I was unlikely to find the fix on my own but it makes sense now.

    Not having the bike mode in France, I ended up amending some bits with Qlandkarte which is why there is just one segment in my track.

    If I do the translating bit (you give me a list of word and I translate them), would you consider making it available in French and English?
    Chief cat entertainer.

    Euan Uzami

    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #158 on: 27 January, 2013, 03:47:47 pm »
    Doesn't seem to.  Just shows a blank white empty elevation box.  Do I need to do something else?
    maybe hover over it - but if that doesn't do it then it's probably google's elevation service coming back with UNKNOWN_ERROR, fairly helpfully, which it does on fairly large tracks. I'm going to have a play with it to see if there's a limit as it's ok with a lower amount of points.

    If you're touring you've probably gone over the size which causes it to baulk.

    I can probably fix it by sending the track to google in smaller portions.




    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #159 on: 28 January, 2013, 01:50:59 pm »
    I find Microsoft Autoroute 2011 fine for creating and editing GPXs.
    ( As a ‘wish list’ item, I’ll have to see about Autoroute 2013 ).

    I create an .AXE on AR11, and the DIY Administrator checks it on AR05.
    I export as a .GPX with minimal points for the Garmin to not get confused.

    Getting clever, I have a .AXE which is a template for every DIY. On it, I put a marker on really steep hills I don’t like. If the suggested route goes across a marker, I pick and drag the route to another road.

    Euan Uzami

    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #160 on: 28 January, 2013, 02:00:18 pm »
    I find Microsoft Autoroute 2011 fine for creating and editing GPXs.
    ( As a ‘wish list’ item, I’ll have to see about Autoroute 2013 ).

    I create an .AXE on AR11, and the DIY Administrator checks it on AR05.
    I export as a .GPX with minimal points for the Garmin to not get confused.

    Getting clever, I have a .AXE which is a template for every DIY. On it, I put a marker on really steep hills I don’t like. If the suggested route goes across a marker, I pick and drag the route to another road.

    ON gpxeditor I have a 'reroute' option. (Right click on a track, Edit -> Reroute)
    When you reroute and you have the elevation graph showing, it shows the elevation of the proposed path against that of the original path. You can see whether it's higher, and/or longer.

    I think it's only in test at the moment, but I'll promote it to live when i've tested it more thoroughly and fixed a couple of bugs that I know it's got.
    The elevation graph also displays the maximum percentage gradient for a segment. (this is currently in the middle of the graph, but i'm  thinking of moving it to the side with the rest of the stats)


    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #161 on: 28 January, 2013, 03:30:55 pm »
    The 'really steep hills' I don't like are the REALLY steep hills. The ones over 20%.
    Other hills are not feared.
    I reckon I've covered all the really steep hills I'll be likely to encounter, so knowing elevation changes is secondary to my needs.

    Most really steep hills in GB are famous, or infamous, and if I do go somewhere I don't have any knowledge, I Google for 'Steep hills in Norfolk', or wherever.
     ;D

    Bianchi Boy

    • Cycling is my doctor
    • Is it possible for a ride to be too long?
      • Reading Cycling Club
    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #162 on: 28 January, 2013, 07:32:18 pm »
    Hi,

    I have been using the test editor and like the elevation graph. I would like to see the total climbing and a way to re-sample the climbing statistics.

    Also is there any plans to save the tracks to a Garmin unit?

    Steve
    Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

    Euan Uzami

    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #163 on: 28 January, 2013, 10:05:04 pm »
    I've been working on having stats showing to the left of the graph but haven't published that yet as I've not quite finished it yet.

    When you say resampling, do you mean just ask google for the data again? It would come back with the same result.
    If you mean get the data for an existing track that you load, then it should do it when you hover over it but might not work currently as google's elevation service seems to baulk if you give it too much data at once, which would be likely to happen if you loaded a track from a file rather than drawing it bit by bit. I can fix this.

    The garmin communicator plugin, yes, it probably can be done.

    Toady

    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #164 on: 29 January, 2013, 09:09:34 am »
    Doesn't seem to. [show elevation graph on reloading from gpx file] Just shows a blank white empty elevation box.  Do I need to do something else?
    maybe hover over it - but if that doesn't do it then it's probably google's elevation service coming back with UNKNOWN_ERROR, fairly helpfully, which it does on fairly large tracks. I'm going to have a play with it to see if there's a limit as it's ok with a lower amount of points.

    If you're touring you've probably gone over the size which causes it to baulk.

    I can probably fix it by sending the track to google in smaller portions.

    I've done a minor bit of playing with it and I find that (a) it's not a file size thing - the elevation profile always seems blank when you reload a track from gpx, even a teeny little one and (b) the elevation profile fills itself in if you edit the track (eg add a little bit on the end).

    Euan Uzami

    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #165 on: 29 January, 2013, 10:58:37 am »
    It won't be file size, it will be , if anything, maximum number of trackpoints in a segment.

    Sorry if dev's a bit slower now, the weather's improved! But will definitely get these things tidied up.

    Bianchi Boy

    • Cycling is my doctor
    • Is it possible for a ride to be too long?
      • Reading Cycling Club
    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #166 on: 01 February, 2013, 08:20:47 am »
    I've been working on having stats showing to the left of the graph but haven't published that yet as I've not quite finished it yet.

    When you say resampling, do you mean just ask google for the data again? It would come back with the same result.
    If you mean get the data for an existing track that you load, then it should do it when you hover over it but might not work currently as google's elevation service seems to baulk if you give it too much data at once, which would be likely to happen if you loaded a track from a file rather than drawing it bit by bit. I can fix this.

    The garmin communicator plugin, yes, it probably can be done.

    1. I use bike hike and this reads the elevation data as you add points. Sometimes it does not read the elevation data and you need to resample to get this data. Maybe it is a server load thing.

    2. The Garmin plug in would make this very complete. I  like the full use of the screen for editing and have to save the track, open bikehike and then save it to my trusty old eTrex.

    BB
    Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

    Bianchi Boy

    • Cycling is my doctor
    • Is it possible for a ride to be too long?
      • Reading Cycling Club
    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #167 on: 01 February, 2013, 08:27:02 am »
    Just been planning a route for todays ride and there is a section where you do not follow the road. It is only about 100m. There is a feature in some editors that allow you to do a point to point line and not follow the road. Is that possible with GPX Editor?

    BB
    Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #168 on: 01 February, 2013, 09:14:52 am »
    I've finally twigged what this thread is all about,,, horray. ;D

    Its a third party software package that allows the user to edit a GPX file...  :o

    Don't need it. I'll go away.

    B4igo, import a GPX onto BikeHike and then Export it as a different name.
    Import new named file into Microsoft Autoroute 2011 and all the data points are displayed as waypoints. Chop and change at will.

    Euan Uzami

    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #169 on: 01 February, 2013, 10:14:32 am »
    Just been planning a route for todays ride and there is a section where you do not follow the road. It is only about 100m. There is a feature in some editors that allow you to do a point to point line and not follow the road. Is that possible with GPX Editor?

    BB

    Yes - either right click, Route to here -> as crow flies (or walking, etc - this changes the routing mode temporarily)

    OR, to change the routing mode permanently, click the option on the routing mode selector which is at the bottom right, a little bit in from the left.

    Bianchi Boy

    • Cycling is my doctor
    • Is it possible for a ride to be too long?
      • Reading Cycling Club
    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #170 on: 11 February, 2013, 10:01:46 am »
    I have been playing with the cycle, drive, walk options. I have for a while been wondering about the methods that it uses to choose routes between points.

    Is there any explanation of the rules? In cycling it appears to favor minor roads even if this is an extra 10% or so ans a lot hillier.

    Great editor - keep up the good work.

    BB
    Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

    Euan Uzami

    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #171 on: 11 February, 2013, 10:27:15 am »
    I have been playing with the cycle, drive, walk options. I have for a while been wondering about the methods that it uses to choose routes between points.

    Is there any explanation of the rules? In cycling it appears to favor minor roads even if this is an extra 10% or so ans a lot hillier.

    Great editor - keep up the good work.

    BB

    That's a question you'll need to ask google ;D I just call out to google's web service.
    So it's exactly the same as if you go on maps.google.com, click 'get directions', and enter a start and end point.
    The only difference is if you do it on cycling mode on maps.google.com then it turns the map into a green 'cycle' map, and I've told it not to do that on my site, just because I find it annoying.

    Did publish a few bug fixes yesterday, which you might not notice but:
    If you used streetview more than once it would throw an error which could knock the menu system out - that's fixed,
    The start and end markers were missing when loading a track from a file - that's also fixed,
    and certain old versions of gpx namespaces e.g. from bikeroutetoaster were not deserializing correctly - can handle those now and should be a lot more robust generally, so if any gpx has got weird namespaces it doesn't understand it will just strip all the namespaces out and try without them.

    Also promoted a couple of the improvements that were in test into main, namely the reorganized menus and the overlay when drawing so that the cursor stays as a crosshair which enables you to do a point on an existing track.

    Toady

    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #172 on: 03 March, 2013, 01:39:11 pm »
    A little bug for you.

    Create a track
    Save the track (say as fred.gpx)
    Now I want to upload a previously created track next to it.
    Select load, enter the file I want to load, say bill.gpx
    Instead of uploading bill, it prompts you if you want to download fred.

    This is easily worked around.  Just reload the site then load fred.gpx then load bill.gpx and you have the contents of both on display.

    Toady

    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #173 on: 04 March, 2013, 12:29:23 pm »
    PS - the question of whether it will show the elevation data for a loaded track:  I think my problem was that I was too impatient.  If you load a track or several tracks, then click on one of them, the elevation data should come up ... eventually.  Takes a while.  A nice to have would be to place the name of the track being displayed above the graph.  Then you can be sure which elevation profile is on display.  THere's a bit of latency while it decides what to do, so it can get confusing if you have multiple tracks open.

    PPS - the placement of waypoints CAN be bonkers. 
    When you right-click to get the menu up, the position at which you right clicked, that's where the waypoint goes.  :)
    Yesterday it placed a waypoint off my current screen, so it can't have been where I right clicked.  But I can't provide a reproducible error scenario.

    PPPS - a very minor irritation.  Sometimes I right click and bring up the menu by mistake.  Then I can't get rid of the darn thing without doing something.  Cancel option would be handy. Or is there a key to cancel that I'm not using?

    And to finish on a positive note:  I really like the reroute option!

    Euan Uzami

    Re: GPX editor / route planner wish lists?
    « Reply #174 on: 04 March, 2013, 01:13:40 pm »
    A little bug for you.

    Create a track
    Save the track (say as fred.gpx)
    Now I want to upload a previously created track next to it.
    Select load, enter the file I want to load, say bill.gpx
    Instead of uploading bill, it prompts you if you want to download fred.

    This is easily worked around.  Just reload the site then load fred.gpx then load bill.gpx and you have the contents of both on display.

    yes, funnily enough I discovered that one myself only the other day!

    I haven't had chance to do much on it lately as i've been trying to build an auto strava uploader ;)

    But I've refactored the elevation so it's a lot more reliable, it just uses a google chart which looks a bit nicer anyway.