Bike packing trends

[morbihan]

You're not really pushing or pulling, is what I'm saying. If the Freight 8 was a pig, it was because of weight distribution or some other factor. Your propulsive input is made in the same way whether the load is in front of or behind you, or under or even on top of you.

Not so sure about that.  I'd push a wheelbarrow up a hill rather than pull it

[Karla]

Pushing and pulling?

Not all the energy you transmit to the pedals is transmitted instantly to the road.  Some of it is stored in the resonant system that is you plus bike plus load
  How it's stored, how it's then used or wasted, and how stored energy being brought back into play interferes constructively or destructively with energy you're inputting right now, and how that varies with your frequency of pedalling, your frequency of swaying the bike, how you naturally resist bike swau and how much the bike is loaded and how this all feeds into the steering, is a complex problem that contains now differentials than I want to tackle at this time of night.  Save to say, you aren't 'just' moving a mass uphill, and the bike design can very much altar how much work you have to do.

[Cudzoziemiec]

You're not really pushing or pulling, is what I'm saying. If the Freight 8 was a pig, it was because of weight distribution or some other factor. Your propulsive input is made in the same way whether the load is in front of or behind you, or under or even on top of you.

Not so sure about that.  I'd push a wheelbarrow up a hill rather than pull it

But if it was a suitcase on wheels, you'd pull it. And in both those cases you are transmitting force to the object through your hands, rather than to wheels. Plus a bike is a rigid structure from end to end, regardless of where the load is (unless Wobbly John's made it  ).

[morbihan]

You're not really pushing or pulling, is what I'm saying. If the Freight 8 was a pig, it was because of weight distribution or some other factor. Your propulsive input is made in the same way whether the load is in front of or behind you, or under or even on top of you.

Not so sure about that.  I'd push a wheelbarrow up a hill rather than pull it

But if it was a suitcase on wheels, you'd pull it. And in both those cases you are transmitting force to the object through your hands, rather than to wheels. Plus a bike is a rigid structure from end to end, regardless of where the load is (unless Wobbly John's made it  ).

Fair point.
While appreciating that differing  geometry on various bikes will give a different feel for a predetermined luggage load.
Personal experience for me has been that my bikes has become more unstable when heavily back loaded.
What springs to mind was a Van Nic Yukon with a lot of weight on the back where the wheel would tend to lift off the ground up steep hills, it would wallow around behind as I climbed  and shimmy when going down hill.
The first Firefly would do the same when heavily back loaded but to a much lesser degree.
The new Rando bike is incredibly stable with the front load. Far beyond what I would dare test on the downs. I was riding in The Baronnies a couple of weeks ago. Foothills of then Pyrenees with insanely steep ramps. (I got low gears!) The wheel was "almost" coming off the road at certain points and I think would have been unrideable with the weight behind.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Yeah, keeping the front wheel down isn't usually a problem but when it is, it is! Anyway, I think we are reaching the point where "someone on the internet is right in the wrong way!"

[salar55]

Yeah, keeping the front wheel down isn't usually a problem but when it is, it is! Anyway, I think we are reaching the point where "someone on the internet is right in the wrong way!"

For some of us its a problem for half of the ride😂

[Cudzoziemiec]

He also mentions how there was a move to using only rear panniers, I think he said this happened in the 1970s. But we can see that at some point after that (I'm not sure of the chronology, maybe in the 90s or maybe later?*) there was a move from generally rear-only to generally four-pannier loading. This might have been beneficial for weight distribution but not so good for total weight and stuff carried. First rule of stuffing your stuff into your stuff, stuff less stuff!

*It will vary from place to place of course.

[Kim]

Shirley the bigger issue with using four panniers is that (on a typical DF bike) it means loading the steering, which can result in stress, ulcers and even DETH funny handling on bikes not specifically designed with that in mind.

At some point front luggage racks switched from the traditional over-the-wheel design to low-riders, which presumably improves the stability of the bike (certainly when being wheeled, which is useful for loaded touring).

I have two bikes where front luggage is attached to the frame, and that's an entirely different proposition.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Yebbut loading on the steering using those front racks (which Usanians like to call decaleurs or rando racks) are trendy again.

[Kim]

Yebbut loading on the steering using those front racks (which Usanians like to call decaleurs or rando racks) are trendy again.

Ah, but those are the *bikepacking* version

[Cudzoziemiec]

Notably though, most of the few basketpackers I've seen – and I'm not sure they'd recognize the term – have been using baskets attached to a rear rack. Front "Waldo-rando-basketpacking" doesn't seem to have taken off here as it has in the USA. Perhaps because our supermarkets tend to use flimsy plastic baskets rather than wire ones?

[Frank9755]

He also mentions how there was a move to using only rear panniers, I think he said this happened in the 1970s. But we can see that at some point after that (I'm not sure of the chronology, maybe in the 90s or maybe later?*) there was a move from generally rear-only to generally four-pannier loading. This might have been beneficial for weight distribution but not so good for total weight and stuff carried. First rule of stuffing your stuff into your stuff, stuff less stuff!

*It will vary from place to place of course.

I always thought there was a big national fashion divide.  I associate 4-panniers with Germans and Dutch - from the flatlands where weight is less of an issue.  Two massive panniers at the back is more British.  My Galaxy handles fine with that setup. 

Nowadays I often use front panniers + child seat on the same bike.  That also handles fine but I don't like not being able to lift the bars to bump up a kerb or similar.  The steering and handling are still otherwise fine though.

Not a criticism but an observation: @Morbihan's setup looks very American in the Rivendell / Bicycle Quarterly style.  Not something I'd expect to see in the UK

[Cudzoziemiec]

1976. Rear panniers are the thing.


1983. Four panniers are the new way.


2014. Front panniers are the way forwards.


2021. Put a bit of everything a bit of everywhere.


All photos American (from trendy hip dudes the Radavist and links therein). Tardis required.

[Kim]

basketpackers

 

[Cudzoziemiec]

Not my term. I like it but I picked it up from one of the hipdude American websites. Probably something like this: https://bikepacking.com/gear/swift-sugarloaf-review/

BASKETPACKING 101
If the growing number of manufacturers making basket-specific bags is anything to go by, basketpacking is a style of bike touring that’s becoming increasingly popular. But let’s be clear. Given a basket’s position and its extra weight, it’s not a setup we’d recommend for anyone choosing technical singletrack as the mainstay of their bikepacking explorations. Rather, it’s a very practical option for those who consider dirt road touring to be more their style, especially when combined with the likes of lightweight framebags and seatpacks. Another side perk of basketpacking is that it plays nicely with brake and cable housing, which isn’t always the case when running a handlebar roll. And you can lash all kinds of things to a basket – both on top or underneath – should the need arise.

For those new to the concept of baskets, a popular model like the US-made Wald 137 typically costs $25, weighs 550g, and be attached to a small, minimal rack using zip ties, like Rivendell’s stout 335g Mark’s Rack M1, as pictured (tip: once tightened down, cut the ends with nail clippers to get a nice and flush fit). #Basketpacking #Basketlife

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Jim Blackburn introduced their lowrider front racks around 1982. I think French framebuilders were building lowrider front racks a decade or so earlier and produced lowrider rear racks too, which didn’t work so well as on the front.

Lowrider front racks were better than high-mount front racks because the front panniers were closer to the steering axis. Mounting rear panniers low shifts the panniers behind the rear axle on most bikes (heel clearance), so tending to wag the tail.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Is it the steering axis that counts or the wheel hub? A friend who built his own low-trail bike and toured in Scotland with this summer said he found the steering slightly too quick with fork bags and much better with lowriders, because they put the weight more over the hub rather than the fork. I can't remember what he had at the back.

[Tommyp27]

Jim Blackburn introduced their lowrider front racks around 1982. I think French framebuilders were building lowrider front racks a decade or so earlier and produced lowrider rear racks too, which didn’t work so well as one the front.

Lowrider front racks were better than high-mount front racks because the front panniers were closer to the steering axis. Mounting rear panniers low shifts the panniers behind the rear axle on most bikes (heel clearance), so tending to wag the tail.

I think the French had them from the 1930s, I'll check

[mzjo]

Jim Blackburn introduced their lowrider front racks around 1982. I think French framebuilders were building lowrider front racks a decade or so earlier and produced lowrider rear racks too, which didn’t work so well as one the front.

Lowrider front racks were better than high-mount front racks because the front panniers were closer to the steering axis. Mounting rear panniers low shifts the panniers behind the rear axle on most bikes (heel clearance), so tending to wag the tail.

I think the French had them from the 1930s, I'll check

I have just  looked through the period photos in Raymond Henry's  Histoire du Cyclotourisme vol 1 (1865-1939) and I can't see a single bike with any sort of front carrier. No front paniers might be expected but there are quite a lot with rear paniers. Barbags strapped onto the bars but no carriers. Both Jacques Oudart's Concours winningUldry from 1935 and Lily Sergueiew's Caminargent for her voyage (which ended in Syria due to war!) in 1938 had rear paniers and nothing on the forks or over the front wheel. The machine for cyclotouristes in the Automoto catalogue has its "porte-bagages" welded to the seat-stays (welded or brazed, the french tend to use "soudage" for both techniques) The Lutecia in the 1935 Concours d'Auvergne has the same. It seems likely that front-loading (and 650B tyres) were probably a post-war trend.
It should be noted that in an earlier decade Vélocio's preferred equipment was a very large front bag (and, until he stopped finding decent tyres, 500 tyres in 50 section - think of a Big Apple and you're there). A little warning somewhere in there for the Confrérie des 650 who regard him as the great prophet!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Is it the steering axis that counts or the wheel hub?

The closer the panniers are to the centreline of the headset (= steering axis), the lower the radius of gyration and so reduces the effect the pannier weight has on steering. It makes little difference whether the panniers are at the front hub or the top of the fork as long as they are close to the steering axis.

A high-mount rack puts the panniers in front of the fork = further away from the steering axis = more effort to start turning the handlebars and more steering overcorrection.

It is the same sort of thing as having a big handlebar bag tucked up close to the fork crown or cantilevered a long way ahead of the handlebars. Closer to the steering axis is better.

[quixoticgeek]

I always thought there was a big national fashion divide.  I associate 4-panniers with Germans and Dutch - from the flatlands where weight is less of an issue.  Two massive panniers at the back is more British.  My Galaxy handles fine with that setup. 

Yep, the classic 5 bag bike tourists. You can tell the difference between the Dutch and the Germans so equipped by either the brand of their bike, or if they are wearing a Helmet. Helmet == Guten Tag. No Helmet == Goede Morgen. Carradice == Good morning!

Based on those I've met cycling around in .NL... and .DE... and .FI...

J

[bobb]

I always thought there was a big national fashion divide.  I associate 4-panniers with Germans and Dutch - from the flatlands where weight is less of an issue.  Two massive panniers at the back is more British.  My Galaxy handles fine with that setup. 

Yep, the classic 5 bag bike tourists. You can tell the difference between the Dutch and the Germans so equipped by either the brand of their bike, or if they are wearing a Helmet. Helmet == Guten Tag. No Helmet == Goede Morgen. Carradice == Good morning!

Based on those I've met cycling around in .NL... and .DE... and .FI...

J

Whenever I'm touring in Europe with the classic 5 bag setup, people futher west (Spain, France, Belgium etc) always assume I'm German. In Germany, Switzerland etc. they always assume I'm Dutch. I've even been mistaken for a German by other British cycle tourists.  The Dutch on the other hand just seem to know I'm British.

I'm 1/8^th German, so maybe that's it. Or maybe it's just the all bags 

[salar55]

1976. Rear panniers are the thing.


1983. Four panniers are the new way.


2014. Front panniers are the way forwards.


 
2021. Put a bit of everything a bit of everywhere.


All photos American (from trendy hip dudes the Radavist and links therein). Tardis required.

The French were way ahead of the game a pic of a 1950 Longoni Campeur

[Frank9755]

The French used to cycle tour but they don't seem to now. I struggle to remember ever having met a French rider while touring. Even in France, other tourists always seem to be British, German or Dutch.

Why and when did they stop?

[salar55]

I always thought there was a big national fashion divide.  I associate 4-panniers with Germans and Dutch - from the flatlands where weight is less of an issue.  Two massive panniers at the back is more British.  My Galaxy handles fine with that setup. 

Yep, the classic 5 bag bike tourists. You can tell the difference between the Dutch and the Germans so equipped by either the brand of their bike, or if they are wearing a Helmet. Helmet == Guten Tag. No Helmet == Goede Morgen. Carradice == Good morning!

Based on those I've met cycling around in .NL... and .DE... and .FI...

J

Whenever I'm touring in Europe with the classic 5 bag setup, people futher west (Spain, France, Belgium etc) always assume I'm German. In Germany, Switzerland etc. they always assume I'm Dutch. I've even been mistalen for a German by other British cycle tourists.  The Dutch on the other hand just seem to know I'm British.

I'm 1/8^th German, so maybe that's it. Or maybe it's just the all bags 

Do the Dutch know because you only have 5 bags , no rackpack over the rear panniers?