The S word

[StanThomas]

There are actual laws about signage though. It is usually illegal to put signs up wherever you want without permission or a permit.

Since this is such a widespread practice, not just cycling events but car rallies and so on, it seems that if you put them up the day before and take them down the day after, the powers that be have other things to keep them busy.

But, do any of our legal experts know where you'd stand painting arrows on the road? Utility companies do it, councils do it. Use water-based paint and it'll be pretty much gone in a few weeks.

[dehomag]

Painting on the road is also illegal without permission. The AA and CTC are permitted to put signs up by the way. The person putting the sign up is breaking the law, not the organisation or event that the sign refers to.

[Ian H]

The AA and CTC are permitted to put signs up by the way.

Even that's not simple. They still have to approach the local authority, which can, if it wishes, be awkward, for instance by insisting on putting the signs themselves and charging for the work.

[frankly frankie]

There are actual laws about signage though. It is usually illegal to put signs up wherever you want without permission or a permit.

Since this is such a widespread practice, not just cycling events but car rallies and so on, it seems that if you put them up the day before and take them down the day after, the powers that be have other things to keep them busy.

Still illegal - if you do it without permission.
I'd be interested to know if organisers of Sportifs do get the requisite permission - and if so, what other steps do they have to take to keep the authorities onside??  How much of the entry fee is spent on this?

[Martin]

Having had my rant upthread, I can sympathise with Martin's plight. Having put so much time and effort into developing his events and the Grimpeur Du Sud series it must be galling to have a sportive on his turf. It really comes down to his motivation as an organiser and aspirations for his events.

I'm not bothered about competition as it's months away from my own event; plus if it hadn't been for the dry spell recently the roads this time of year would be really horrible. What dismays me more is that having plugged my ride constantly for years (much like the original organiser) and also the GdS to fora magazines local clubs etc etc to keep the numbers up some complete unknown can come up with a slick website and he has the cycling press at his beck and call and 300 willing riders instantly.

And although £20 sounds ridiculous I've read that a lot of this could come down to the cost of those silly little chips (which if anybody was really bothered about "winning" they'd just short cut anyway)

The times have just been published online; that makes it a race, Mr Plodd?

(also my brother noted that you could not move for cars near the start village so bang goes that theory of getting people out of their cars)

There are actual laws about signage though. It is usually illegal to put signs up wherever you want without permission or a permit.

How do sportives handle this? I'm guessing that the majority just put the signs up illegally for the day, and then take them down at the end.

They were discreet orange arrows with no identifying source (backed up with a few bits of orange tape dangling from trees; it was possible confusion with the TT signs that alerted my club to the ride) I suppose all the polis could do is take them down and they have better things to do.

[annie]

I'm loving the route sheet tips, laminating seems a really good idea.

Sounds like you Audaxers have demolished another one of my excuses   

I laminate my route sheets and attach them with a to the bar and cables with a couple of bits of that stuff with holes in from race blades.  Weighs next to nothing.  Really easy.

[StanThomas]

...
The times have just been published online; that makes it a race, Mr Plodd?

The accepted procedure for 'challenge' rides is to publish a list of finishers and their times, sorted alphabetically by name. No positions, so it's not a race. Of course, there's nothing to stop you downloading the results into your favourite spreadsheet and sorting them any which way you choose.

[Martin]

...
The times have just been published online; that makes it a race, Mr Plodd?

The accepted procedure for 'challenge' rides is to publish a list of finishers and their times, sorted alphabetically by name. No positions, so it's not a race. Of course, there's nothing to stop you downloading the results into your favourite spreadsheet and sorting them any which way you choose.

indeed; don't they do the same on PBP?

As someone who hasn't done an Audax yet it is the routesheet aspect which I find the biggest disincentive. 

What happens if you don't have a bar bag with a transparent map pocket?  I have visions of feverishly trying to memorise chunks of the routesheet like an actor learning lines.

I often go around chanting mantras to myself to remeber the next 3 or 4 directions

along the lines of "Lat Rat Sox Larab"

[damerell]

The long and short of this is that IMO Audax is failing dismally to attract this very eager market at this sort of distance and we need to do something to prevent AUK events like this vanishing completely

All else aside, and I sympathise with the situation, are AUK events like this vanishing? We seem pretty steady, the 4-year PBP tide aside.

[gordon taylor]

There's something similar in this argument to the conflict between little shops and supermarkets - or even the LBS and (say) Wiggle.

The big organisations provide the required experience at the click of a mouse, whereas the independents need some face-to-face interaction and produce a wide range of experiences and effectiveness.

It's just modern times. As long as lots of people are on bikes, who cares?

[GruB]

After I started commuting, I was introduced to my first sportive, by a friend.  It was very enjoyable although rather busy and somewhat daunting at first.  What really got me though was the price to enter, just to ride on the local roads 
A year later and ( I think via AcF ) I found out about audaxing.  What really struck me was the price to enter - or lack thereof. 
Audaxing is a much smaller community. Many know each other but as it is on a much smaller scale it could appear slightly more elitist ( cliquey ) to the unitiated.
What appeals to me about audaxing is the self sufficiency side.  I was sort of doing that on the sportive anyway, but most were not. 
The thought of having to stop because my chain had broken etc and not carrying any tools goes against my commuting brain - so in that respect, my thoughts are closer to audax than sportives.

I would be very saddened if audax was turned into sportive styles.  It would loose me as a participant if that became the norm.

[Rich753]

The long and short of this is that IMO Audax is failing dismally to attract this very eager market at this sort of distance and we need to do something to prevent AUK events like this vanishing completely

All else aside, and I sympathise with the situation, are AUK events like this vanishing? We seem pretty steady, the 4-year PBP tide aside.

In a previous thread (Promoting AUDAX events) Frankly Frankie answered a similar question with the observation that both membership and riding seemed to be relatively stable over a long period of time (20-25 years). Audax riders seem to be a sustainable breed!

He also made the eminently sensible suggestion that Audax and Sportives events are complementary, not competitive, and by (my) extension could probably do more to learn from/work with the other.

FWIW my sense is that the two populations (sportive & audax riders) have a significant overlap, that audax tends to a higher age profile but sportives are much better at attracting (and sustaining?) the newcomer.

[Gandalf]

Speaking as a newcomer I'd have to agree.  To a neophyte, who, like me may have never entered a cycling event, but has done a couple of running events, Audax seems so quaint, old fashioned and slightly impenetrable.

The AUK website, whilst  functional does look like it was knocked up by Mrs Beeton on an early manual typewriter and the amount of information about each event is perhaps a bit too concise.  Then there's the diverting busines of snail mail and envelopes which is so redolent of John Major's  cycling spinsters.

I'm not sure that in this day and age potential punters feel entirely able to respond positively to that sort of thing.

[Tiger]

Gandalf - The snail mail and stuff is part of the thing itself. It is indeed a genuinely different type of experience that is being offered, to those who can see its attraction.

Your last sentence talks of 'potentioal punters' and I think that is the issue. I don't think Audax is part of  'punter' culture at all - the world of created and packaged experiences that can be bought. Sportives are exactly that though - you buy a packaged experience. 'The hell of the XXX' or 'The Dragon' or suchlike. It is a sort of 'readymeal' ride in a box with a lovely picture of the end result on the outside. These can be really good.

Audax on the other hand is like real cooking, with recipe and ingredients. more complex, demanding, timeconsuming and satisfying in a different way. But it is not for punters - was never intended to be so and would suffer if lots of punters entered because its fragile infrastructure could not cope.
 

[Gandalf]

I see what you mean Tiger, a beautifully crafted analogy.

[Aidan]

Gandalf - The snail mail and stuff is part of the thing itself. It is indeed a genuinely different type of experience that is being offered, to those who can see its attraction.

Your last sentence talks of 'potentioal punters' and I think that is the issue. I don't think Audax is part of  'punter' culture at all - the world of created and packaged experiences that can be bought. Sportives are exactly that though - you buy a packaged experience. 'The hell of the XXX' or 'The Dragon' or suchlike. It is a sort of 'readymeal' ride in a box with a lovely picture of the end result on the outside. These can be really good.

Audax on the other hand is like real cooking, with recipe and ingredients. more complex, demanding, timeconsuming and satisfying in a different way. But it is not for punters - was never intended to be so and would suffer if lots of punters entered because its fragile infrastructure could not cope.
 

Thats a lovely way of putting it.

I always think of sportives as something you do, and Audax as something you're involved in.

The idiosyncracies, the posting of entries, the volunteers and the crap website  ,  are all involving.

Paying £25 online to turn up and ride, whilst enjoyable in its own way , isn't.

[Greenbank]

the crap website

A little bit harsh...

To me, who likes to think he gets the Audax ethos, it's nigh on perfect. It's simple, tells me all I need to know (I'm happy to go wherever a ride takes me, I don't need to have every single detail listed), and free of advertising and gobs of irritating Flash animations and other web rubbish.

[GrahamG]

I'm under 30 (just!) and have only been cycling for 'recreation' for the last 12-18 months. Completed (just!...) my first audax a few weeks back and thoroughly enjoyed it - I'd say it has even motivated me to get out on the bike more to be able to enjoy more events and longer events with a little less suffering.  Whilst I'm probably more the sportive demographic, I'm not really competitive (although I do have my own personal goals) and have no interest in what strikes me a pseudo races. Furthermore the thought of paying £20+ really galls me in comparison to Audax costs - although I should add that work colleagues seem to think nothing of it and even described the Hampshire hilly 100 as 'cheap'.

I'd argue that they're separate markets - I want a laid back ride with people who don't care what type of bike I'm on, or how many chainrings I have or what my average speed is. I strongly suspect from colleagues anecdotes that sportives just ain't my bag.

[Aidan]

the crap website

A little bit harsh...

To me, who likes to think he gets the Audax ethos, it's nigh on perfect. It's simple, tells me all I need to know (I'm happy to go wherever a ride takes me, I don't need to have every single detail listed), and free of advertising and gobs of irritating Flash animations and other web rubbish.

Sorry ,yes a bit harsh and I should have put a smiley in their, that bit was a little tongue in cheek. Its certainly functional,  not initially user friendly, and quite hard to navigate, it takes a bit of work, as I said , involving.

[chillmoister]

It certainly seems that the world of Audax is very much under the radar ...last summer I was talking to a local club cyclist (and not some newbie) explaining with enthusiasm that I had just started 'audaxing' that year ...he was most insistent that I was mistaken and that I had actually been riding Sportive events as that is what Audax is now called!!

I've no experience of Sportive events ...however I have really enjoyed the Audaxing I have done so far.  I like the understated, egalirtarian, friendly and 'hand crafted' feel I get from Audax .....a bit of an antidote to many of todays in your face,  Hyper marketed, Super Brands we're bombarded with.  Maybe it's just because I'm a country boy and it's just the nostalgia of village halls and tea from some ancient enamelled tea pot!!

[cc93]

Paying £25 online to turn up and ride, whilst enjoyable in its own way , isn't.

Paying £25 for a couple of energy bars and an ASBO ankle bracelet is enjoyable exactly how?
 

[Martin]

Just looking through the T / C's of the sportive in question (I'm not going to reveal it; I have no quarrel with the organiser and FWIW think he put on an excellent event which I would probably have supported had I not been a stationary car target on a mini-roundabout at the time)

Helmets were compulsory (the only event I was aware of which has this stipulation apart from a few TT's where it's a district rule) are road races so not sure where a non-competitive event like this stands

A rescue service was offered (for 300 riders?)

I think in this respect Audax has got the whole side of this very well sewn up ; you are riding your bike from a to b via c d e and f and we just provide a suggested way of getting there; cake and a rubber stamp and that's the way it should be IMO

and +1 for the AUK website; since when did UK sportives take you up the Tour climbs you often see depicted in their blurb?

[nic]

Paying £25 online to turn up and ride, whilst enjoyable in its own way , isn't.

Paying £25 for a couple of energy bars and an ASBO ankle bracelet is enjoyable exactly how?
 

Come on... Sportives are fun in pretty much the same way that Audax rides are. You're on your bike getting some fresh air. With regards to the costs, it's all pretty similar too when you factor travelling costs, food etc...

Having ridden both types of events, the notable difference is once the distance goes beyond 200k.

[simonp]

Fred Whitton Challenge requires helmets.  It's not waymarked though iirc.

I thoroughly enjoyed that, and am in again this year. 

[StanThomas]

Helmets were compulsory (the only event I was aware of which has this stipulation apart from a few TT's where it's a district rule) are road races so not sure where a non-competitive event like this stands

A rescue service was offered (for 300 riders?)

...

Helmets are required in most UK cyclosport events. It's a condition of their insurance. I also find it presents a positive image to communities and authorities when I speak to them.

One hopes that the numbers requiring recovery will be less than 100%, well 0% in truth.