Entries on the line

[Martin]

Charlotte; presumably you didn't read Chris Rutter's letter in Arrivee recently having a general winge about not just EOL's but also late entries (and riposted vigurously in the next edition by El Supremo) so you probably inadvertantly touched a raw nerve.


I'd agree with most of the hassles of EOL's mentioned upthread but I for one cannot afford to turn away money on the day and usually have spare cards route sheets etc; I'd still much prefer everyone to enter in advance (and online if less than a week before) but things don't always work that way. I retain the right to invoke Regulation 5.4 if I get loads of riders turning up on spec and clearly state this on the website.

Re brevet cards; it's fantastic to get the correct number of pre-printed cards already done for you.

If they arrive in time

I've taken to printing mine in house using a Word template; it's a right pain but means you can get another job out of the way in the few days enfore the event

ps as Chris did not put a closing date number or anything about EOL's on his calendar page fair game I suppose. Looking into the 23rd century we may one day see a mobile broadband connected laptop type doofer at events so people can not just enter on the line but enter online on the day.

pps have you entered a TT recently ? that's still back in the days of A and B buttons on public telephones for two seemingly good reasons;

1. So the orgnaiser can lay out a field to ensure that the noobs don't shame themselves whilst wearing a number ending in 1 or 6; instead getting a sympathetic chuckle "well of course he's crap he's a 9"
2. To ensure everyone still has to fork out seven guineas for the Book of Runes which exists as the only portal of entry into the parallel dimension of the TT

[JohnHamilton]

Part of the issue seems to me that we've got a regulation which is unenforceable by AUK, so all orgs do things however it seems best to them. The exact approach isn't widely publicised unless the individual org decides to put a note against their event on the calendar.

And it's far too easy to ignore the deadline and still send an entry. If AUK is serious about entries two weeks in advance the website should have a big countdown 'X days left to enter' and then on Day0 - 14 disable the ability to print an entry form / enter online.

Would be better if the standard event template included the information on the cut off date, whether late/EOL entries are accepted and any surcharge so at least the info is visible to the entrant.

[Grandad]

Quite a few years ago I talked a clubmate into trying an audax and with over 2 weeks to go phoned the organiser to see if there was still room. "Plenty of room - don't bother posting an entry, just enter on the line"

He did, and paid an extra £2 for the privilege! 

[JJ]

Oh My!  This is doing my confidence no good for my forthcoming ride.

Shall I update the ride information to say that EOLs will be made to jolly well wait?
Shall I order lots of blanks and print up stickers with the controls on them?
Shall I just hide under a tea urn and hope they all go away?

I think I need to know!

 

[pizzicatooff]

I'd love to be enter on line but if we did that, the organisers would not know how many to cater for and whether to hire a hall. Chris Crossland and Don Black who organise splendid rides always lay on food (Chris particularly does a gargantuan feast with the aid of his wife and staff). Imagine if they had only 5 entries beforehand then 50 people turn up at 10 mins to start time.

It's very gratifying to read something like about the work that members of Halifax CTC do at our events. Maybe it's not the best illustration though of a need to avoid entries on the line.

Our attitude to people entering our events is that we put on the events because we want people to ride them. Hence:-
1. We welcome riders who submit their entries by two weeks before the day.
2. We welcome riders who submit their entries later than that.
3. We welcome riders who enter on the line.

Our view is that they all contribute to the success of the day and make the event a bigger and better occasion for everybody. Of course it helps if we have a number of pre-entries as we can use the event entry predictor to guess at the number we'll actually get. That works well for events up to 100km but less well as event distances increase. An eye on the weather is also useful.

In the case of our Spring Audax Events (9am and 10am on 19 April from Hebden Bridge - PLUG!), our entries on the line are usually similar in number to the pre-entries, i.e. usually well in excess of 50. With a total of 150+ riders between the two events, we've developed a system that involves some food being prepared on the two days beforehand and the rest obtained in a dash around the nearest Tesco after the 10am starters have set out and before the fastest of them returns. Yes, it does rely on a reasonable mixture of entries.

It seems to work for us; I'm not suggesting it would for others.

Jennifer would like it to be known that it's she who puts on a gargantuan feast with the aid of her Halifax CTC staff and that my contribution is purely incidental in providing the excuse for the party.

Regards
(and see you on April 19)

Chris

[simonp]

Shall I order lots of blanks and print up stickers with the controls on them?

I would just order a bit more than you think you need of the normal card and if you have a lot left over, recycle them with printed inserts.

[Jaded]

Some blank cards and some printable sticky labels with the details of the ride.

A surcharge for EOLs.

Sorted.

[MattH]

I wonder how many EOLs are new to Audax? I know I did my first ride that way, but I did phone the organiser a few days beforehand to check it was OK, and find out how things ran (I didn't have a mentor to initiate me into the AUK rituals, I turned up on my own and had no idea what I was letting myself in for).

For this reason alone I think EOLs with smile are a good thing for AUK on at least the shorter rides - whilst realising that they can be a PITA for organisers. (And I really do appreciate the effort organisers go to already, without having extra stress of unorganised people).

[phil d]

Like most organisers, I recognise that there are people who genuinely cannot commit to a ride until the last minute.  And I will always do all I can to accommodate these riders - the last thing I want to do is turn anyone away (which I have never done yet).  But given that the half hour before the start is the very busiest time for the organiser, and it is often difficult to get enough assistance at that time of a Saturday or Sunday morning, it would be really nice if EOLs turned up properly prepared -

* Early, so as to avoid the organiser being tied up with such matters in the last few minutes before the off
* With entry form ready filled in (including AUK or CTC number)
* With the correct money (for me, preferably by cheque, other organisers may differ)
* With a stamped sae (hardly any EOLs bring one)

And be prepared to pay a premium, maybe to have to start late, and possibly not get a brevet card.  Priority will always be given to those who have followed the proper entry procedure.

If you can email the organiser, even as late as the night before, that can be a great help.  To be honest, phone calls the night before are not a help at all - there are plenty of things to be done, without the interruption of phone calls.

[frankly frankie]

A surcharge for EOLs.

Paper money only (to save weight obviously), and no change given.

The thing is that a lot of Orgs are pretty much 1-man bands, and sometimes especially so at the start.  An EOL is going to require 10x the time/attention/tlc that a pre-entered rider will need.
Of course Orgs shouldn't be so strapped for helpers - if they can't get support then they shouldn't really be organising - but that's how it is.

[JJ]

I'm lucky.  I have some excellent help lined up
 

[LEE]

You could have some pre-prepared EOL packs for sale.

Let's say normal price was £5.  You can make it clear that EOL is, say, £8.

They give you £8, you give them a pack (Brevet Card, a C5 envelope, a pen, an entry form and some instructions telling them to complete form and fill in name/address on envelope) and you point them to a distant table so they can complete the task away from the main queue.

£8 covers the event, food, stamps and effort of putting a few packs together.

If all the packs were the same at all Audaxes then people would get efficient at using them and wouldn't hold up proceedings borrowing pens and so on.

[Ivo]

If you can email the organiser, even as late as the night before, that can be a great help.  To be honest, phone calls the night before are not a help at all - there are plenty of things to be done, without the interruption of phone calls.

I usually try to be at the start café for 1-2 hours the night before the ride. I announce this to the riders so that those who stay in town can drop by and get their cards, routesheets etc. handed over at a quiet moment. Saves time in the morning. Phoncalls during this part of the night before are no problem at all.

[LiamFitz]

I'm not trying to drum up trade for my business... but we sell courses and use this site:

Change in a Day - a Masterclass for internal communicat... - Eventbrite

It works very well for us as a business.  Potential customers read the promotional bumpf and then sign up on line.  We get a print out of who has signed up with all their contact details and pay a small admin fee for the privilage.  We also don't have issues about chasing payment because it's all dealt with.

Liam

[Greenbank]

Have you used the online entry via Paypal for any Audaxes?

I did for the Willy Warmer and it was very easy to do. I wonder if Manotea will share his thoughts on how it helped him out on the admin front.

Doesn't solve many of the EOL problems though.

[Chris S]

I quite like LEE's idea.

1. Hand pack to n00b.
2. Point to seasoned leathery skinned randonneur drinking tea
3. "He'll help you with the paperwork, sonny...¹"

Problem solved.

--
¹ Don't say this to Charlotte when she's got her "f*cking trains" face on...

[simonp]

¹ Don't say this to Charlotte when she's got her "f*cking trains" face on...

I see a whole new art genre forming.

IGMC

[Marmitegeoff]

I do put a closing date in the calander, but do recognise that in other lives things can get a bit busy, and so I am happy to take EOL so long as it is not to many.  I do get packs prepared but even then things go wrong, or help needed to fill in the forms, etc.  just at the busyist time of the day,  I have car park starts so there is no where to fill in the forms except the camping table that i use to issue the cards from.  It can get very cosy.

Geoff

The worst thing is to recieve a phone call late the previous evening and then for the caller not to turn up 

[Fixedwheelnut]

 My Kent Invicta Grimpeur event is this Sunday and has proved popular with local clubs who use it as training for sportive rides.
 I have eighty entries so far and usually get sixty plus on the day, I have always stated that people should get there at least half an hour early if they want to start on time.
 I also incresed the entry fee for on the day entry ;
a/ to encourage people to enter early
b/ to cover postage and envelopes that nobody brings
c/ to cover temporary insurance regardless because people say they are covered but have no membership numbers with them  

 I usually cater for 160 people as some will not eat and some will eat more and left overs can go on to the 200 next week.
 the most I have had was 180 riders with both events

 All I ask for riders on the day is to be patient, write legibly on the entry form and include the contact number, bring the correct money [eighty riders trying to pay with twenty pound notes is a pain in the proverbial] but I still smile.
 If they don't like any of that they should enter early  

Polythene bags...?

If only riders could be trusted to use them. You wouldn't believe the horribly unhygienic state of some cards handed to me at the finish. I must have built up considerable immunity to all kinds of nasty bugs over the years (either that or I'm incubating something really nasty).

[PatC]

The problem is that some organisers will actively welcome EOLs while others refuse to entertain the concept. Some organisers expect EOLs and can cater for large amounts while others are put in the position of having to accept them to try to balance the books.  

Maybe it would be an idea to educate riders to enter in good time rather than to try and find ways of making the process of EOL easier.  

[StanThomas]

There seems to be a mood here that EOL is a pain 'cos riders are messing around completing forms in the car park.
May I suggest that anyone who wants to enter on the day download the entry form from the AUK website and fill it in the night before - you must know you intend to ride before you get in your car in the morning. And bring the correct change. Or better still, enter online - I'll take your entry up to 8pm the night before ( I want to go to bed too).

I'm pleased to say that my late entries do exactly this, thank you one and all.

[Martin]

EOL's would be easy if it was just a case of "hand me £6 and here's your rider pack, off you go" but when the form has to be filled in with the usual questions to the organiser; and then the rider's name has to go (manually) onto 3 rider lists to be taken to the various controls it starts to eat into the (non existant) spare time the org has before the start.

And it's all very well saying "EOL's please form a queue I'll deal with you once the main field has gone" but the organiser's work is only just beginning as the main field leaves; I for one have to account for all the DNS and late starters who are on the phone at the time and get to the first checkpoint (along narrow lanes) in my car before all the racing snakes' and that's before I even think about getting the lunch stop ready....

It's a dirty job but someone has to do it; and I'm so glad all the other orgs do or else we would be looking at £20 a head 

[Manotea]

Have you used the online entry via Paypal for any Audaxes?

I did for the Willy Warmer and it was very easy to do. I wonder if Manotea will share his thoughts on how it helped him out on the admin front.

I was using the standard AUK website/paypal mechanism with no supporting event website.

I'd credit being online with an small increase in the number of entries, a small increase in the number of DNS and fewer EOLs. What you would expect, really.

Just over half entered online. Having to reconcile paypal entries with the online entry list and also process manual entries significantly increased my admin effort. However, distributing routesheets by email to all entrants for whom I had an email address (including the postal entry) significantly decreased my admin effort so I broke even overall. I only had a couple of requests for hardcopies.

Lessons learnt/next steps.
1) There is definately a demand for online entry.
2) Events need a larger online presence than that offered by the current calendar page. It would be useful if the AUK website could provide an org admined 'event webpage' and storage space for the routesheet. This would encourage orgs to provide more information aboute AUK events on the AUK website and with a common layout.
3) A mechanism is required to allow online entrants to provide contact and next of kin info which is normally found on the application form. My solution for the Willy Warmer was to require all entrants to signon and record provide contact/next of kin info, which worked but required a fully manned registration desk. 
3) A mechanism is required to send out an automatic online entry response/acknowledgement with instruction on how to download the routesheet and so complete automation of the entry process (from the riders perspective).
4) I will use online entry for my next event (Anfractuous/Nyctophobic) supported by some form of 'event website', and will instruct all (postal) entrants NOT to send me any SAEs unless they specifically require a hardcopy routesheet.

[Ivo]

What really helps in increasing the amount of pre-entries is reminding people by e-mail. Usually I mail all former riders of my events (luckily I managed to get nearly everyones e-mail adress), attaching the pre-registration form. In my particular case of a ride with riders from various language areas I simply don't guarantee for any entrants on the line that they'll get a routesheet in their language of choice. Those who pre-entered get all the info in their language of choice (provided that to be a language I speak ).

[Wowbagger]

Late entries can be a problem in chess tournaments too. What happens then is that, depending on the length of game,  a second set of pairings is done for the late entrants maybe 30 minutes after everyone else. The difficulty arises when you have an odd number. If the arbiter accepts an entry but cannot provide an opponent for someone, he is awarded a 1-point bye, which in effect is a win.

Once, at the Ilford Congress, we had one chap turn up late, pay £25 entry fee plus £5 for entering on the day. He was the odd player and was so cross with being given a bye that he didn't turn up for any of the subsequent rounds!