Steel Frame choices

[quixoticgeek]

Looks like I'm going to need a new bike for commuting, 20-30k, mostly flat, with an omni directional headwind is just too much for the Brompton. I'm thinking of building something round a steel frame, the idea to build a rugged yet light commuter that can do the odd Audax on a weekend, and maybe the occasional light tour. The main thing is that it should be comfortable and light/fast. I'm not a fan of ali for frames, so steel it is. Oh, and I want disk brakes.

Basic googling brings me 3 potentials:

* Genesis Vagabond
* Genesis Croix De Fir
* Surly Straggler

I'm 1.7m tall, but I've struggled in recent years to get bikes that fit me, it's either the right length for my legs, and then too long in the body, or I can get the body length just right, and can't then get the saddle high enough to pedal properly. I'm thinking with the right stem, and a compact drop bar, I should be able to make one of the small size frames of the above work. The stack and reach for the 3 frames are:

Vagabond,S   589     355
CDF, S   572     375
Straggler, S   534.0   390.8

In terms of reach, 35mm covers the the 3, with 55mm on the stack. With the reach, is the difference close enough that I can use a 80mm, 100, or 115mm, and have the handle bars be in effectively the same position? How does the difference in stack effect this? What's the shortest stem I should consider before it dramatically effects the handling? Is it possible to make any judgements on which of the three will have the most relaxed/comfy riding position just from the geometry numbers? help! This is all really confusing.

Any other steel frames in the 350-500 ukp, that take wide tyres, disk brakes, and might suit me, that I should also consider (because I'm not indecisive enough as it is... )

Help!

Thanks

J

[Gattopardo]

Looked in to a custom frame?

[quixoticgeek]

Looked in to a custom frame?

Yes, beyond my budget at this point.

J

[Brucey]

if you want a budget option, the P-X kaffenback frameset is dirt cheap right now.   Not sure it will take especially wide tyres and mudguards, though.

Still, it might help to refine your ideas and perhaps avoid making an expensive mistake with another frameset?

cheers

[quixoticgeek]

if you want a budget option, the P-X kaffenback frameset is dirt cheap right now.   Not sure it will take especially wide tyres and mudguards, though.

Still, it might help to refine your ideas and perhaps avoid making an expensive mistake with another frameset?

That looks very plausible. Tho it says only rated to 32C. Do you recon I could get a 35c on there if I didn't have the mudguards? That's very very tempting...

J

[Morat]

If you can stretch your budget... a bit (well, quite a bit)..
one of these would be absolutely terrific:
https://www.tritoncycles.co.uk/frames-forks-c6/road-touring-frames-c47/roadhouse-frameset-2016-p17494

[quixoticgeek]

If you can stretch your budget... a bit (well, quite a bit)..
one of these would be absolutely terrific:
https://www.tritoncycles.co.uk/frames-forks-c6/road-touring-frames-c47/roadhouse-frameset-2016-p17494

That does look very pretty, but it would rather blow the budget.

J

[Gattopardo]

Some of the bike polo frame builders come under that price for a frame.

[Brucey]

if you want a budget option, the P-X kaffenback frameset is dirt cheap right now.   Not sure it will take especially wide tyres and mudguards, though.

Still, it might help to refine your ideas and perhaps avoid making an expensive mistake with another frameset?

That looks very plausible. Tho it says only rated to 32C. Do you recon I could get a 35c on there if I didn't have the mudguards? That's very very tempting...

J

I don't know about the tyre sizing exactly. It might be a case of seeing for yourself.    However I don't know if you noticed but the bargain price applies only to the small size, and they presently list just one in stock....

cheers

[Torslanda]

Being a shameless opportunist it just happens that I have a used Croix de Fer frame. 60cm, Genesis branded seatpost & 100mm stem. Along with a new Ultra Galaxy fork with 270mm steerer. Can also supply a cartridge bearing headset or build a complete bike if you wish...

Would that be too big for you?

The Kaffenback is probably on the limit at 35mm and the only guards you could use with that width of tyre would be the race blade type.

[rogerzilla]

Surlys are very well finished.  On-One less so and I had the LBS face various bits of my Inbred when it was new.  On-One geometry is also extremely odd - I needed a 450mm seatpost and a 30mm stem!  Despite all that, it rides very well and was unbelievably cheap.

Discs aren't as low maintenance as you might hope on a commuting bike and drum or coaster brakes can be less trouble, apart from wheel removal.

[quixoticgeek]

Discs aren't as low maintenance as you might hope on a commuting bike and drum or coaster brakes can be less trouble, apart from wheel removal.

Drum and coaster brakes are not an option. Largely cos I already have the wheels (left over from another project).

J

[sojournermike]

The Planet X 'Holdsworth' Elan Disc is 199.99 at present - I know nothing about it, but they have all sizes in stock

The Straggler is quite long, although I've got a bike with an 80mm stem and 35mm tyres and it's fine. Geometry is probably a bit quicker than the Straggler though - 73 head angle and 48mm offset

[Torslanda]

Historically (and anecdotally) the Holdsworth paint is CARP. Yer pays yer money . . .

ETA 'Max tyre clearance - 28mm'

[dim]

Surly Disk Trucker frame

heres one for £325 that will fit you (it's a 52cm) .... just get a stem that fits:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Surly-Disk-Trucker-frameset-/302295178602?hash=item4662325d6a:g:-b8AAOSw3ZRY~1AP

ride it for a while then sell it complete (with wheels etc) for £750 and get something 2nd hand that is better

[Bledlow]

Being a shameless opportunist it just happens that I have a used Croix de Fer frame. 60cm,

60 cm is very big indeed for someone 170 cm tall.

52cm, like that Surly, should be better, with the right length stem & seat post.

[Torslanda]

Oops. Missed that bit . . .

[TheShipwright]

fairly new here, dont post much but what about Cotic Escapade or Roadrat?

[zigzag]

if you want steel, light, fast, with disc brakes and cheap - that's quite a lot to ask . for flat(ish) terrain commuting i'd only consider single speed - more efficient, lighter, less maintenance/cleaning (that's what i ride by choice).

[quixoticgeek]

if you want steel, light, fast, with disc brakes and cheap - that's quite a lot to ask . for flat(ish) terrain commuting i'd only consider single speed - more efficient, lighter, less maintenance/cleaning (that's what i ride by choice).

Depends where you're starting from. Coming from a brompton, in a land of the oma fiets, most things are light. And fast.

The cdf and vagabond come in around the 11-12kg mark when built up. Sure it's heavier than the 6.8kg UCI limit, but it's certainly no heavy weight.

As for single speed. No chance. Slogging into a strong headwind for 20k with no lower gear option is a rather close to my dread scenario.

J

[rogerzilla]

Singlespeed has all the disadvantages of fixed and none of the advantages...can't remember whi said that, but it's largely true.

[mrcharly-YHT]

You are the same height as me and I ride a CDF very comfortably, in the smallest size they do and the stock stem. However I have an inside leg length of a dwarf, only just making it to 30inches.
You might be ok with a shorter stem, but be aware that they are quite long frames.

They aren't 'quick' feeling bikes and are fairly heavy. I find mine versatile, capable of rolling comfortably at reasonable speeds, carrying luggage; it is a workhorse. Can take 35mm tyres under guards. Voyager Hyper tyres in 35mm are wonderful on this bike, glide over potholes, accelerate fast and grip well.

Evans let you do test rides with no commitment.

[edit] the stock gearing is ludicrously high with a stupid bottom gear. I've replaced my big ring with a 46, still trying to get the lower gear down.

[Chris N]

if you want a budget option, the P-X kaffenback frameset is dirt cheap right now.   Not sure it will take especially wide tyres and mudguards, though.

Still, it might help to refine your ideas and perhaps avoid making an expensive mistake with another frameset?

That looks very plausible. Tho it says only rated to 32C. Do you recon I could get a 35c on there if I didn't have the mudguards? That's very very tempting...

J

Kaffenback 2 will take 32mm + guards, just.  You should get 35mm tyres on there - I had to snip the side knobs off some 35mm CX tyres to clear the chainstays, but I expect a slick would fit.

[DuncanM]

Vagabond,S   589     355
CDF, S   572     375
Straggler, S   534.0   390.8

In terms of reach, 35mm covers the the 3, with 55mm on the stack. With the reach, is the difference close enough that I can use a 80mm, 100, or 115mm, and have the handle bars be in effectively the same position? How does the difference in stack effect this? What's the shortest stem I should consider before it dramatically effects the handling? Is it possible to make any judgements on which of the three will have the most relaxed/comfy riding position just from the geometry numbers? help! This is all really confusing.

You can adjust reach with the stem - between 80-120mm seems like a reasonable range. The difference between them will speed up or slow down the handling a little, but shouldn't make too much difference.
The stack is a bit different.  It depends on the fork, but on my current bike I have about 30mm difference between completely slammed with no spacers, and with all the spacers you can put on. So I don't think that the Vagabond with all the spacers possible would be as high as the Surly would be with no spacers. You might be able to get there by having a riser stem as well, but at that point maybe you've got the wrong frame?
Also, this is assuming the frame angles are basically the same - the CDF is a cross bike so might be a bit different.
It's worth checking this out: http://fitwerx.com/stack-and-reach/
Cheers
Duncan

[Ben T]

Looks like I'm going to need a new bike for commuting, 20-30k, mostly flat, with an omni directional headwind is just too much for the Brompton. I'm thinking of building something round a steel frame, the idea to build a rugged yet light commuter that can do the odd Audax on a weekend, and maybe the occasional light tour. The main thing is that it should be comfortable and light/fast. I'm not a fan of ali for frames, so steel it is. Oh, and I want disk brakes.

Basic googling brings me 3 potentials:

* Genesis Vagabond
* Genesis Croix De Fir
* Surly Straggler

I'm 1.7m tall, but I've struggled in recent years to get bikes that fit me, it's either the right length for my legs, and then too long in the body, or I can get the body length just right, and can't then get the saddle high enough to pedal properly. I'm thinking with the right stem, and a compact drop bar, I should be able to make one of the small size frames of the above work. The stack and reach for the 3 frames are:

Vagabond,S   589     355
CDF, S   572     375
Straggler, S   534.0   390.8

In terms of reach, 35mm covers the the 3, with 55mm on the stack. With the reach, is the difference close enough that I can use a 80mm, 100, or 115mm, and have the handle bars be in effectively the same position? How does the difference in stack effect this? What's the shortest stem I should consider before it dramatically effects the handling? Is it possible to make any judgements on which of the three will have the most relaxed/comfy riding position just from the geometry numbers? help! This is all really confusing.

Any other steel frames in the 350-500 ukp, that take wide tyres, disk brakes, and might suit me, that I should also consider (because I'm not indecisive enough as it is... )

Help!

Thanks

J

I've actually got a perfectly good thorn steel frame I don't use that I'd sell you but unfortunately it's designed for with flat bars so it's quite long  - it would be too long for anybody with drops.

What you could do however if most frames are too long for you is simply use flat bars with an averagely proportioned frame which would bring the reach in so your hand position is nearer, for a given standover height/seat tube position. So you wouldn't have to have a broomstick for a seatpost to get comfortable. Don't necessarily think of flat bars as being like a mountain bike - road flat bars are narrower than mtb bars so your hands are in a similar position relative to your shoulders as they would be on the hoods of drops, just rotated slightly differently, and with bar ends there are various different positions. You just sacrifice the drops position, but a lot of people don't use it anyway.

I don't use mine any more because I simply don't trust steel not to cold weld the seat post or any other metallic part to itself. However it has been professionally treated with cavity wax since then - and you're welcome to it if you think it's suitable, what I would want would be well within your budget.

p.s. I've actually also got a raleigh richmond steel frame from the 80s which you can have for free - it is fine apart from the fact when i last rode it, despite tightening the (threaded) headset before the ride it was loose by the end, so I think the headtube might need facing/reaming.