Author Topic: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator  (Read 3456 times)

andytheflyer

  • Andytheex-flyer.....
Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« on: 23 May, 2017, 12:03:27 pm »
Hi,

May I ask for some advice?  The wife has a recent and not-much used Trek Navigator (700c x 35 wheels), and would cycle more if we didn't live on top of a hill - so a ride always ends with a bit of a slog.  She's just been talking to someone in the village who does her shopping on an e-bike, and asked me if she should buy one. 

I'd have thought that adding e-assist to the Trek would be better given that it's a good bike and in perfect nick and has panniers, basket etc.  I can build a bike from a frameset so have the tools and skills.

I'm aware of this https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=84928.25 but suspect that technology etc. may have moved on since 2014.

And Polar Bear's thread https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=102212.0

Are there any new aspects I need to consider, and any real do-nots?  She's never going to go more than maybe 10 or 15 miles a day, really to the shops or a pub.  Any recommendations on sourcing the kit (other than avoid cheapo stuff on eBay!).

Budget not really an issue - you get what you pay for.

Thx

Thx

Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #1 on: 23 May, 2017, 12:27:14 pm »
Electric bike conversions have been extremely helpful to me in spite of the fact that the kit we acquired was secondhand.   

I would recommend a front wheel conversion.   With the full kit you get a 700c wheel with motor, battery, controller, screen, etc.   The reason that I'd recommend a front wheel kit is because it's the easiest to install not interfering with existing gears.   Our kit came with a bottle cage mount battery but I'd prefer a rack variant myself.   We've adapted our kit to be mounted on a rack.   The legal 250w motor should be more than sufficient.

Such a kit will more than meet her needs.

As an aside and after much wrangling and hair pulling, we're hoping that our conversion makes it's debut on Bank Holiday Monday.   

Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #2 on: 23 May, 2017, 12:46:23 pm »
I have just ordered one from this company
http://www.electric-bike-conversions.co.uk/

Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #3 on: 23 May, 2017, 02:48:19 pm »
Before you take the plunge, go to www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum and lurk there a while. There are many 'what's the best option?' threads there.

Oxydrive provide perhaps the simplest kits to fit, but they aren't cheap. I have had crank drive, front wheel drive & rear wheel drive bikes; some converted some off the shelf. The most accomplished was an Oxygen, which was an off the shelf, rear hub drive bike with a frame-mounted battery. I was very happy with it until recently when the electrics started playing up big time.

And thereby hangs the tale of electric bikes at the moment, IME, the motors are good, the batteries are good, but the box of tricks in the middle that binds the system together is the weak link.

Rear hub drives are my preferred option, but only if you can get one that takes a cassette. The cheaper ones (including Electric Bike Conversions') are freewheel usually. Oxydrive's fit a cassette, IIRC.

Incidentally, cable brakes are far easier to accommodate than hydraulics, so Avid BB7s are OK, Juicys take a little more faffage.

Feel free to PM if you have any specific questions about a particular kit.

Haggerty F, Haggerty R, Tomkins, Noble, Carrick, Robson, Crapper, Dewhurst, Macintyre, Treadmore, Davitt.

Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #4 on: 23 May, 2017, 05:06:48 pm »

Rear hub drives are my preferred option, but only if you can get one that takes a cassette. The cheaper ones (including Electric Bike Conversions') are freewheel usually. OK, Juicys take a little more faffage.

I've been told mines going to be cassette.

Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #5 on: 23 May, 2017, 06:59:35 pm »
http://www.electricbikeconversions.co.uk/product/250w-rear-wheel-electric-bike-conversion-kit/

'The 250w rear wheel electric bike conversion kit will come complete with a 7 speed freewheel.'

Mind you, there are several companies with similar names, so maybe yours is another company.

Not despatching until June, this lot...
Haggerty F, Haggerty R, Tomkins, Noble, Carrick, Robson, Crapper, Dewhurst, Macintyre, Treadmore, Davitt.

andytheflyer

  • Andytheex-flyer.....
Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #6 on: 23 May, 2017, 09:58:28 pm »
http://www.electricbikeconversions.co.uk/product/250w-rear-wheel-electric-bike-conversion-kit/

'The 250w rear wheel electric bike conversion kit will come complete with a 7 speed freewheel.'

Mind you, there are several companies with similar names, so maybe yours is another company.

Not despatching until June, this lot...

I've found 2 companies with almost identical names - but they seem to sell similar kit. PB's advice about a front wheel conversion looks to be the best for the wife, given that she needs something simple.  I don't want to be responsible for regular maintenance of a rear hub system, I have enough maintenance of my own bikes.

I suspect battery management will be the main issue - I know from model flying that rechargeables prefer to be worked hard, not charged, partially discharged and then left to sit for extended periods.

Going to see the people that Numbnuts is buying from (in Stoke), they are <1hr from me and they have a demonstrator bike for her to try.

Don't think I'll be converting my recumbents - don't think Audax UK will like that.

Thx for the advice to date, much appreciated.  The wife has a dodgy pelvis (and so do I) and my personal experience is that I get no trouble from it if I cycle regularly - if I can get the wife to cycle regularly, maybe the physio's bills will decrease........

Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #7 on: 24 May, 2017, 11:03:28 am »
The principal advice I've read about front hubs is to ensure that the power cable enters the housing underneath and to allow a loop to form (if cable length permits) so that water drips away from the motor.
Haggerty F, Haggerty R, Tomkins, Noble, Carrick, Robson, Crapper, Dewhurst, Macintyre, Treadmore, Davitt.

andytheflyer

  • Andytheex-flyer.....
Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #8 on: 27 May, 2017, 08:29:06 am »
I have just ordered one from this company
http://www.electric-bike-conversions.co.uk/

Went to see these people yesterday (I think it's one man in an industrial estate unit - but organised, clean and tidy) with a good few bikes for sale and a lot of converted bikes ready for collection.

Wife tried an electric bike with a 250W hub and was very impressed.  There's a bit of a hill on the estate roads near his unit and she sailed up it on only the second lowest assist level (out of 5).  She was all for buying that bike there and then, but since she's already got a good bike to convert I resisted and the proprietor said it's an ideal bike to convert.

Bought a 250W front hub kit with the pedal assist system, throttle and controller, with a rack battery pack.  Delivery next Wednesday.  Hope it's as good as the demo bike (same motor etc.) or I'll never hear the last of it......

Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #9 on: 27 May, 2017, 08:41:51 am »
I have just ordered one from this company
http://www.electric-bike-conversions.co.uk/

Went to see these people yesterday (I think it's one man in an industrial estate unit - but organised, clean and tidy) with a good few bikes for sale and a lot of converted bikes ready for collection.

Wife tried an electric bike with a 250W hub and was very impressed.  There's a bit of a hill on the estate roads near his unit and she sailed up it on only the second lowest assist level (out of 5).  She was all for buying that bike there and then, but since she's already got a good bike to convert I resisted and the proprietor said it's an ideal bike to convert.

Bought a 250W front hub kit with the pedal assist system, throttle and controller, with a rack battery pack.  Delivery next Wednesday.  Hope it's as good as the demo bike (same motor etc.) or I'll never hear the last of it......
Well done I hope mine will be the same, my wheel is being built today 24 inch so should have the kit sometime next week.

robgul

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  • cyclist, Cytech accredited mechanic & woodworker
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Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #10 on: 27 May, 2017, 08:46:19 am »
I'm still hovering about putting a front hub motor in my old Galaxy .... be interested in feedback from recent converts.

A couple of Qs.

1   Apart from the obvious mathematical answer what is the difference between a 250 and 500 motor?
2   Has anyone used these people  http://www.electricbikeconversions.co.uk   (that's the company near Stevenage)?

Rob

Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #11 on: 27 May, 2017, 09:22:57 am »
I'm still hovering about putting a front hub motor in my old Galaxy .... be interested in feedback from recent converts.

A couple of Qs.

1   Apart from the obvious mathematical answer what is the difference between a 250 and 500 motor?
2   Has anyone used these people  http://www.electricbikeconversions.co.uk   (that's the company near Stevenage)?

Rob
Difference between a 250 and 500 motor, one can be used on the road the other can't, 250 watt motor is the largest size that can be used legally, that should give you a max speed of 15.5mph

Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #12 on: 27 May, 2017, 09:34:27 am »
Electric Bike Conversions have been very supportive in my attempts to get a secondhand kit with what turned out to be a bodge between controller and components working.  The bike has a 250w front wheel and it propels a bear along on the throttle with ease.  It is going out for a 15 mile ride with the owner on Monday as it's maiden outing.

250w is more than sufficient imo as an assist.  If you need to be propelled as oppose to propelling with assistance then you might look at a bigger motor but above 250w is illegal on British roads.

Incidentally, the bike, a black Btwin Elops 100? came from your bike charity shop and I had to rebuild the front wheel at great pain being an odd size.   We'll be making another trip out soon to bring a few donor items. 

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #13 on: 27 May, 2017, 10:33:06 am »
Just for comparison, the average pro puts out about 250W (average output) during a Tour de France stage.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

robgul

  • Cycle:End-to-End webmaster
  • cyclist, Cytech accredited mechanic & woodworker
    • Cycle:End-to-End
Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #14 on: 27 May, 2017, 12:52:08 pm »
I'm still hovering about putting a front hub motor in my old Galaxy .... be interested in feedback from recent converts.

A couple of Qs.

1   Apart from the obvious mathematical answer what is the difference between a 250 and 500 motor?
2   Has anyone used these people  http://www.electricbikeconversions.co.uk   (that's the company near Stevenage)?

Rob
Difference between a 250 and 500 motor, one can be used on the road the other can't, 250 watt motor is the largest size that can be used legally, that should give you a max speed of 15.5mph

Ah - thanks.   I wonder what sort of speed a 500 watt would do?

Rob

Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #15 on: 27 May, 2017, 12:56:05 pm »
I'm still hovering about putting a front hub motor in my old Galaxy .... be interested in feedback from recent converts.

A couple of Qs.

1   Apart from the obvious mathematical answer what is the difference between a 250 and 500 motor?
2   Has anyone used these people  http://www.electricbikeconversions.co.uk   (that's the company near Stevenage)?

Rob
Difference between a 250 and 500 motor, one can be used on the road the other can't, 250 watt motor is the largest size that can be used legally, that should give you a max speed of 15.5mph

Ah - thanks.   I wonder what sort of speed a 500 watt would do?

Rob
By all accounts 20-25 mph

Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #16 on: 27 May, 2017, 01:07:57 pm »
I have a Stevenage 500W front hub sitting around doing nothing. It was massively heavy and a very large presence in the middle of the wheel. Having said that, I could do 27-30MPH on the flat without too much input myself. Battery life was severely curtailed at such speeds though.

I took it out of my Orbit pronto, as it needed a much heavier bike to be able to handle its sheer size.

My rear hub, 250w Oxygen can do 23+ MPH on the flat on the throttle and could do more if the limiter didn't cut in then. I think a Galaxy would suit a 250w front hub, but nothing heavier.
Haggerty F, Haggerty R, Tomkins, Noble, Carrick, Robson, Crapper, Dewhurst, Macintyre, Treadmore, Davitt.

Kim

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Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #17 on: 27 May, 2017, 01:36:50 pm »
Difference between a 250 and 500 motor, one can be used on the road the other can't, 250 watt motor is the largest size that can be used legally, that should give you a max speed of 15.5mph

To clarify, the speed limit and power limit are unrelated.  A 250W motor would be able to propel a decent bicycle at more than 25kph on the flat, but the legal requirement is for it to cut the power above that speed, even if the motor isn't running flat out.  It's not like a ICE motorcycle, where speed limiting is achieved by restricting the performance of the engine.

Also note that the difference between a legal 250W/25kph restricted motor and a 500W 'off-road' one can simply be a matter of software (and excess weight).

In practical terms, I reckon 250W is the sweet spot for electric assistance of a pedal cycle anyway.  Higher speed means more power, which means you need much bigger batteries to achieve a decent amount of range, and that rapidly becomes unwieldy unless it's a cargo cycle.  If you want an electric motorbike, get an electric motorbike.

Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #18 on: 27 May, 2017, 02:45:35 pm »
On the continent, maybe only Germany, ICBA to check; there is a category of ebike called an S-Pedelec that is unrestricted. It needs registering and the rider is required to wear a helmet & presumably tax and insure it. They are only 250W.

I was easily able to remove the limiter on my converted bikes simply by pressing a few buttons and changing the setting on a display screen.  Bosch & Yamaha Crank drive bikes need an expensive dongle to bypass the settings. Some trick the controller into thinking it's only doing half the actual speed. These invalidate the warranty if discovered.
Haggerty F, Haggerty R, Tomkins, Noble, Carrick, Robson, Crapper, Dewhurst, Macintyre, Treadmore, Davitt.

andytheflyer

  • Andytheex-flyer.....
Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #19 on: 27 May, 2017, 07:25:42 pm »
I have just ordered one from this company
http://www.electric-bike-conversions.co.uk/

Went to see these people yesterday (I think it's one man in an industrial estate unit - but organised, clean and tidy) with a good few bikes for sale and a lot of converted bikes ready for collection.

Wife tried an electric bike with a 250W hub and was very impressed.  There's a bit of a hill on the estate roads near his unit and she sailed up it on only the second lowest assist level (out of 5).  She was all for buying that bike there and then, but since she's already got a good bike to convert I resisted and the proprietor said it's an ideal bike to convert.

Bought a 250W front hub kit with the pedal assist system, throttle and controller, with a rack battery pack.  Delivery next Wednesday.  Hope it's as good as the demo bike (same motor etc.) or I'll never hear the last of it......
Well done I hope mine will be the same, my wheel is being built today 24 inch so should have the kit sometime next week.

Hi Numbnuts, think I might have seen your wheel bits - mostly he seems to buy in wheels with hub motors already fitted - from Cyclotricity - at least that's what the boxes being delivered when I was there said. But there was a bundle of shiny new spokes in the workshop - clearly awaiting lacing into a new rim - that may have been yours!

The proprietor (Andy) was very knowledgeable about the kit and bikes he's selling, and he's certainly busy - I felt a bit sorry for him, we were not the only people arriving on his doorstep, the phone was ringing and deliveries arriving - and he was probably trying to get conversions done too.  Looked to me as though he needed another pair of hands - but it was all well organised and tidy, and he was very courteous and helpful in providing advice on what would suit my wife best. 

The conversion all looks very plug and play and I don't anticipate any problems in fitting the kit next week.

Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #20 on: 27 May, 2017, 07:48:28 pm »
Many thanks for that, I was a bit worried doing a purchases from so far away not knowing too much about him, Cyclotricity are in Southampton are about 4 miles away from me, but I had to go through one of their agents if I wanted a kit which seems strange.

andytheflyer

  • Andytheex-flyer.....
Re: Adding electric assist to a Trek Navigator
« Reply #21 on: 02 June, 2017, 11:05:49 am »
Kit arrived yesterday in 2 boxes.  Put the bike in my work stand and dropped out the front wheel - which has a 700c tyre.  Wheel supplied was said to be 28".  Spoke to the supplier and he said it was OK, and so it proved to be - new 700c rim tape was a perfect fit and so was the tyre.

Fitted the new rack - which has the battery.  Didn't appreciate until later that the battery is removable so struggled to fit the heavy rack and had to call in a second pair of hands.  If I'd taken the battery out would have been a doddle.

Grappled off the Revoshifts and fitted 2 new brake levers, an LCD display/controller and a throttle.  Have told the wife that if I catch her riding around on motor only, it'll be divorce, as the bike has pedal assist.  There's a disc with magnets that fits around the BB spindle and a Hall sensor that picks up the pedalling motion. Turn the pedals and the motor kicks in.

The Hall sensor is generic but the bracket supplied would not work for me, so junked that and glued the pickup to the frame with silicone (and sealed the housing at the same time as it's right where it's going to get wet) and secured with a cable tie. 

No instructions supplied but the cables are all colour coded so difficult to get it wrong.  Tidied all the cables up and secured with grey cable ties to match the frame. Looks very tidy now.  Cables all have multi-pin moulded plugs and sockets with alignment arrows - so hard to get wrong.

Wheel fitting was a bit of a challenge as it's designed for 100m dropouts - which is what the bike has, but the forks are fairly bulbous in section just above the dropout and slightly fouled the hub motor on the lh side.  Had to shuffle the axle plain washers about to get 2-3mm clearance between fork leg and motor casing and make a new washer to allow the axle nut to clear the lawyer lips.  There are also tabbed washers on each side to lock the hub to the fork - otherwise the motor could spin, with disastrous results.  Had to relieve the (aluminium) dropouts with a file by about a mm to get the new axle in.

Had to ring the supplier to find out which way the wheel goes into the forks (cable on the rh side as it happens) there's a slight resistance if you spin the wheel backwards, and none if you spin it forwards - knowing that would have saved me the call.

Switched it on and apart from a brief flicker of the screen, nothing.  Put it on charge for 3-4 hours, still nothing - then I found the on-off switch on the battery, then we were in business. 

The Chinglish instruction on setting up the lcd/controller didn't quite work for me but the supplier was very prompt in getting back to me with an email and that problem was solved.

So that was that.  Throttle and pedal assist both worked on the stand and the wife is now waiting for the rain to stop before trying it.

I think the big challenge will be in not touching the throttle until you are on the bike and ready to go - otherwise the thing will set off without you...

Wouldn't fancy trying to change a front tube on a cold, wet, windy dark night, so maybe a pair of M+'s may be a good idea instead of the cheapo Bontrager tyres the bike came with.  Still need to carry a 19mm spanner around though to get the wheel out.

The whole job took me about 5 hours, if I did it again I could halve that. 

So, all in all, very pleased with the outcome.  Electric Bike Conversions in Stoke (Cyclotricity agents) were very helpful and quick at getting the kit to me.  The support over the phone was very prompt and helpful.  Let's hope that the wife's physio bills will now be a bit less!

EDIT: The wife has been out for about 6 miles and pronounced it fine - sailed up the hill back into the village on only assistance level 3(of 5) - but she did complain that she couldn't pedal fast enough to keep up with the motor - had to explain that she needed to change up a gear or 2 then - not sure she understands 3x7 gears.....