Help me build my dream bike.

[nightrider]

I have a dream,where I own a handsome steel framed bike.
I have a dream,that I own a bike that stands out from modern conformity.
I have a dream that whenever I park this bike,I can't resist a crafty look back.
I have a dream that my bike has modern reliable components but still looks classy.
My dream started in the Giant cafe near Lincoln. In the cafe,where it's adorned with classic bikes hanging of the walls. To me modern bikes as nice as they are just don't stir the same emotions within me.
Call me a nostalgic fool but I'm now hankering after good quality steel bike.
I've seen some nice ones at Windmill Wheels,which is a bike shop next to a windmill in Wymondham. They do Condor bikes.Dave Yates is near me.Mercian are close in Derby and then there's Bob Jackson's.
Any advice on building a bike would be gratefully received.

[ACyclingRooster]

Hi nightrider. What about this genuine Italian Columbus tubing (NO MEXICAN ***T) 52cm Benotto frame only and with Benotto Pantograph Chromed Forks.
The frame has a Colnago Heart cut into the BB. It comes complete with Italian Bottom Bracket and a Stronglight A9 headset (both new when built0 and less than 250 miles of riding.

The complete bike is shown for illustration purposes only.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302393063059?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2648

[yoav]

You need to ask yourself a few questions;

The first 2 are universal;
1. How much do you want to spend
2. What do you want this bike for

Now to specifics:
3. Retro or modern bike
4. Classic horizontal top tube or sloping
5. Lugged, fillet brazed or TIG welded
6. Custom built or off the peg
7. Well known brand or small builder
8. Complete bike or frame only

Have a think about which way you'd like to go and tell us.

[nightrider]

First of all I am 5ft 11 -58cm or 23inches with horizontal top tube my modern carbon Ribble with sloping tube is 55cm.For this bike I would prefer a traditional horizontal frame or a slight slope.
Money wise I would like to keep it to around £2000.
I would use the bike for club rides and short Audax type rides.No racing for me!
For this bike I'm thinking Retro.
I'm not bothered about lugs or no lugs but I'm after a pretty bike.
I should be Ok with a of the peg bike;Windmill Wheels offer a free bike fit.
I'm open minded to big brands however I do like the idea of it being made by a man in a back yard.
A complete bike would be cheaper. Ribble do a 525 steel bike for about £1200 has anybody on here any experience of that bike?
The frame only option appeals the most,because if I bought a decent frame. I would then have the satisfaction of choosing the other components and making it feel special. Also I could spread the cost over several months.

[Torslanda]

Strikes me you need either a split mint classic steel frame, Tomassini, Fondriest, Gazelle, Merkcx etc. or a nice Roberts or similar with long drop brakes and clearance for guards and 28mm tyres.

Scan the classifieds on here, someone in Hebden Bridge/Brighouse area was selling a large english frame recently.

Alternatively you need a new, English frame from Rourke or Argos or {insert builder of choice}.

Not really helpful, just chewing things over.

[dim]

Buy a Koga Miyata Full pro frame:



add an 11 speed Shimano Ultegra Groupset

get some decent carbon wheels (50-60mm deep)

all the extras such as peddles and saddle etc (and if you are going to use it for Audax, add some dynamo lighting)  and you will have a pretty decent bike for a decent price .... that's what I'm doing

I recently bought a Koga Miyata Gran Winner for cheap, but I used to own a Koga Miyata Road Champ that weighed slightly under 8kg but it was too big for me ... Miyata used to make their own steel for the bikes and some of their stuff is/was better that Reynolds or Columbus

Big Cult following of Koga Miyata in the USA and not many people in the UK know of these, hence bargains to be grabbed

log into ebay germany or Holland for many bikes listed

[Blodwyn Pig]

First of all I am 5ft 11 -58cm or 23inches with horizontal top tube my modern carbon Ribble with sloping tube is 55cm.For this bike I would prefer a traditional horizontal frame or a slight slope.
Money wise I would like to keep it to around £2000.
I would use the bike for club rides and short Audax type rides.No racing for me!
For this bike I'm thinking Retro.
I'm not bothered about lugs or no lugs but I'm after a pretty bike.
I should be Ok with a of the peg bike;Windmill Wheels offer a free bike fit.
I'm open minded to big brands however I do like the idea of it being made by a man in a back yard.
A complete bike would be cheaper. Ribble do a 525 steel bike for about £1200 has anybody on here any experience of that bike?
The frame only option appeals the most,because if I bought a decent frame. I would then have the satisfaction of choosing the other components and making it feel special. Also I could spread the cost over several months.

 I was here 3 years ago, bought my self a BJ World Tour,  frame, and built it up myself, it was verry pretty, Amber Flam, cream mudguards, leather, carradice, shiny Nitto stuff, it was  a peach. But a bit too precious, then I got whacked on a roundabout, and that bent the frame, so I got something 'less' precious.   I know exactly where you are coming from, I read the book ' its all about the bike'  and was inspired in my own way, sourcing bits from here and there. I still have the (repairable) frame. It is an exciting journey you are on, and I wish you all the best.  Mine was a journey,I picked the frame up personally, making a pilgrimage to Leeds with a weekend stopover, meeting the welder, and the paint sprayer made me a cuppa, make more of it than just buying a commodity, make it a memory. good luck.

[nightrider]

Thanks for all the replies. That Koga Miyata is a thing of beauty indeed and is just the sort of I've envisioned.
I like the idea of restoring a good quality old frame.Like Mr Blodwyn Pig I read It's all about the bike-and was indeed inspired by it.
At least you have given me some names to go on. I'm returning to cycling after a couple of years in hiatus.

[Brucey]

you may not be fussed about lugs but IMHO you should be; they are the things that make all the difference.

Not that I wish to put daft ideas into your head but take a look at these;

http://hilarystone.com/frameset7.html

If I were  you, from those I would choose the Witcomb or the Emperor sport.

Then buy a complete bike (any size!) with a load of retro bits on it, swap them over where possible, buy the odd bits that don't fit,   and sell the left-over frame etc on on.  Job done!

This way you will soon get to the point where you have 'a lovely bike' without the faff and expense of buying all the parts separately. You can upgrade the components as time goes on.

cheers

[Jakob W]

Interesting, Brucey: for a given geometry and tubing, are there differences (durability? ride quality?) between lugged, fillet brazed, and welded frames?

[Brucey]

I don't think you would very often be considering using the same gauge tubes with all three processes, because the strength (both static and fatigue) of each joint will vary, and the reason for selecting each process would be different too.

In a nutshell you can use slightly thinner gauge tubes with lugs (because they offer some reinforcement at the most stressed part of the joint), you can use lugless where no lugs exist in the right angles, and you can use TIG because it also allows flexibility in geometry, and it is cheaper/quicker than lugless work.

I happen to think that lugs look pretty on a vintage/classic machine, and how the lugs are finished can differentiate between a frame that is built to a cost, and one that has been more of a labour of love.

  If you ever see a lugged frame with no paint on it, you can usually see very clearly how neatly it was brazed, and how much work was put into the lugs beforehand.

Lugless is less pleasing (to me) and TIG welded steel frames may work very well, but they don't look the part alongside vintage lugged machines. 

There are pros and cons to each process, and often good reasons for using one process over another. I own examples of all three types;  I just happen like the look of nicely finished lugs on a vintage machine....

cheers

[Jakob W]

Thanks - I wondered whether it was because the lugs provided extra butting; presumably bilaminate construction offers the benefits of both lugless and lugs? I agree on the aesthetics of a nice lugged frame; though with modern OS tubing and compact geometry nicely finished fillet brazing is  IMO perhaps most appropriate.

[mzjo]

Something that occurs to me but may be less important to you is how long you plan to keep the bike and how much you intend to use it. If you are planning to keep it as a useable bike for a long time (rather than a collection or café bike) you should perhaps consider future proofing it. This would affect hub widths, rim choices, bottom bracket and chainset type and most importantly fork and stem design and dimension. Put bluntly, what will be the availability of square bbs and chainsets and 1" headsets and quill stems 5 or 10 years down the line? Others may think this trivial but, as one who has a garage full of classic style bikes, it is something that worries me.

[Brucey]

ST BBs of some sort will continue to be made as long as they are still fitted on new bikes; and they are, in vastly greater numbers than any of the supposedly 'newer and better' styles. Eventually the quality may become iffy in those parts, but then there is always Phil Wood and other niche makers.

The same goes for quill stems and to a lesser extent 1" headsets. However these parts show no signs of 'going away' in medium quality stuff because (amongst other reasons) they are still de rigeur amongst Japanese rinko and Keirin enthusiasts.

FWIW I think that if you fit a decent headset (eg Tange, but with loose balls) and look after it, you won't need another one as long as the frame lasts.

cheers

[mzjo]

ST BBs of some sort will continue to be made as long as they are still fitted on new bikes; and they are, in vastly greater numbers than any of the supposedly 'newer and better' styles. Eventually the quality may become iffy in those parts, but then there is always Phil Wood and other niche makers.

The same goes for quill stems and to a lesser extent 1" headsets. However these parts show no signs of 'going away' in medium quality stuff because (amongst other reasons) they are still de rigeur amongst Japanese rinko and Keirin enthusiasts.

FWIW I think that if you fit a decent headset (eg Tange, but with loose balls) and look after it, you won't need another one as long as the frame lasts.

cheers

I would like to believe you but there are too many times already that I have found the opposite to be true,  with all forms of transport not just bikes. I now wonder where I am going to find a replacement headset for my 992 for example. What good ST chainsets are going to be available in 10 years time? Nobody really knows (it's a bit like finding that all your data is stored archivally but nothing can read the file type in 20 years time!)

[Brucey]

if it really worries you just lay in stocks of the things you might need.

But these parts are both commoditised and have been available for decades. Comparisons with Vitus 992 headsets are hardly fair; I think you would struggle to find a more 'niche' headset, wouldn't you...?

BTW does that headset not use the same roller bearings as Miche and stronglight A9 headsets?

cheers

[mzjo]

if it really worries you just lay in stocks of the things you might need.

But these parts are both commoditised and have been available for decades. Comparisons with Vitus 992 headsets are hardly fair; I think you would struggle to find a more 'niche' headset, wouldn't you...?

BTW does that headset not use the same roller bearings as Miche and stronglight A9 headsets?

cheers

Probably the same bearings, yes, I don't suppose there were many variations - probably only one maker for that part. I have a roller bearing Stronglight in the Gitane, I must check it and see sometime soon. Still not sure what the supply situation will be in 10 years time though (the 992 has done about 53000kms according to its previous owner so if I change it now it shouldn't be an issue).

[Brucey]

Thanks - I wondered whether it was because the lugs provided extra butting; presumably bilaminate construction offers the benefits of both lugless and lugs?

great claims have been made for bilaminate construction ever since it was first done. However cynics will point out that the true reason for its use was probably expediency;  just after WWII lugs of any kind were in short supply and those in the correct (i.e. fashionable) angles were not to be had.  Bilaminated construction allowed the builder to make something pretty (with available but unfashionably angled NOS lugs) but in 'the latest geometry'. All dished up to the punters with a 'look it is stronger (and more expensive obviously...)' garnish....

  I agree on the aesthetics of a nice lugged frame; though with modern OS tubing and compact geometry nicely finished fillet brazing is  IMO perhaps most appropriate.

Yes, if you want that style.  I can see the attraction of it for MTBs and maybe it is OK for race bikes too.  However the real reason why the manufacturers like it is that you can buy  a bike based on the reach alone (more or less) because the saddle height can be adjusted through a huge range.

 Obviously you don't need this on a custom made frame, so why (on a bike that actually fits you properly....) would you want a sloping top tube on a road/audax/touring bike?  Folk witter on about standover height, but if it were a real problem then previous generations of cyclists would all have castrated themselves, which (as far as I can tell) didn't happen. Folk also witter on about frame weight but that is BS too; seat pins are (in comparable materials) much, much heavier and longer in compact frames and the compact frame sees much higher bending loads around the seat lug too.

   AFAICT (esp in small and medium-sized frames) the use of compact geometry has several major effects only, which are to

a) make it difficult to use lugs in the frame build
b) make it difficult to fit a rear rack without the use of flimsy stays about 8" long...
c) make it difficult to fit certain cantis because the rider's heels will hit them
d) the bike rather uncomfortable and plank-like to ride

In small frames even those that are built in the thinnest possible gauge tubes with standard (near- horizontal TT) geometry are ridiculously  stiff. Building them to compact geometry just makes this worse in most cases.

However in a much larger frame size you have a different difficulty which is to get a steel frame stiff enough by any means and in that case maybe a more compact geometry is a good idea for a race bike. But is there any such thing as too whippy/comfy in a (not heavily loaded) touring bike?  I'm not sure.

cheers

[Chinaski]

Google found this
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=423409&d=1501074159
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057767932&page=2

That bike is in Dublin I think,

[nightrider]

This is my new/old bike.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/157380864@N02/36203100642/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/157380864@N02/35563084593/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/157380864@N02/36234747491/in/dateposted-public/
A Moser from the 1980s made from Columbus steel. I'm thinking hand built wheels and Campagnolo group set. The headset size is 1 inch and the seatpost size is 27.2mm. Any comments or advice appreciated.

[fd3]

Nightrider, why not have a google at what Argos, Dave and Mercian have on offer.  Then talk to a decent lbs, they might know a decent local builder or might be able to build up a frame to your exact spec.  You may prefer building it yourself of course.  In my experience a bike shop can source parts for a bike build for cheaper than you can do it yourself.
Not sure if a builder will charge less for off the peg than they will custom, maybe some of the bigger places like Mercian, but I think smaller builders don't keep much stock anyway, so custom is just as good.
Or you could go much cheaper and buy a complete steel bike from the shops and spend some of the £££s you saved on a custom paint job.

[hubner]

I have a dream,where I own a handsome steel framed bike.
I have a dream,that I own a bike that stands out from modern conformity.
I have a dream that whenever I park this bike,I can't resist a crafty look back.
I have a dream that my bike has modern reliable components but still looks classy.

When people say they have a dream something, surely it means they've got a firm idea of what that something is, eg someone might say their dream bike is a Colnago C40 carbon frame with Campagnolo Record parts etc.

Are you looking for advice on what components to put on that Moser frame? Or do you need help on actually how to fit the parts to the frame?

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

My favourite bike is the Roberts Compact Audax they made me in 2003.  It's been amazing.  The requirement was for a good long distance hill climber as my previous 531 bike (stolen) had a fault in being a bit too flexible at the bottom bracket when climbing - it was a 60cm frame.  They used some kind of Columbus tubing which makes sure all the effort goes into the cranks.  The geometry also makes it easy to keep the line when climbing out of the saddle.  Being compact it is lugless and beautifully finished.   Sadly Roberts has paused his production for the moment but may come back one day.



Another bike I have is an OTP from Ellis Briggs in 631.  I bought it in 2008 and it's also very nicely made with a conventional lugged frame.  EB have done a few frame repairs for me, including a replacement top tube and their workmanship is first rate.

[nightrider]

I have a dream,where I own a handsome steel framed bike.
I have a dream,that I own a bike that stands out from modern conformity.
I have a dream that whenever I park this bike,I can't resist a crafty look back.
I have a dream that my bike has modern reliable components but still looks classy.

When people say they have a dream something, surely it means they've got a firm idea of what that something is, eg someone might say their dream bike is a Colnago C40 carbon frame with Campagnolo Record parts etc.

Are you looking for advice on what components to put on that Moser frame? Or do you need help on actually how to fit the parts to the frame?

It's choosing what parts to put on the bike. It doesn't matter if the parts aren't completely authentic,although I would like them to to look nice. I don't fancy going back to non index gearing for example.
So how should I start ? Headset and seat post?

[Brucey]

This is my new/old bike.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/157380864@N02/36203100642/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/157380864@N02/35563084593/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/157380864@N02/36234747491/in/dateposted-public/
A Moser from the 1980s made from Columbus steel. I'm thinking hand built wheels and Campagnolo group set. The headset size is 1 inch and the seatpost size is 27.2mm. Any comments or advice appreciated.

measure up carefully but expect  steep angles, short chainstays, 126mm rear spacing (if it is early 1980s), chrome that is 100% unresistant to our weather, room for 23mm tyres and no mudguards.  It'll make a pretty bike but I expect not one that is very useful for anything other than the odd blast on a sunny day.

If the frame is 126mm and you want to go to 130mm rear wheels then the frame will need to be cold set; this is not without risk on chrome plated frames (and nor is springing it either BTW). If you stick with 126mm then you can have seven speed but not standard eight.  You can fit 8 sprockets from a 9s cassette onto a 7s freehub BTW.  Then again if you are just using it on the odd sunny day a screw-on freewheel will be OK.

FWIW I think you could build it up with almost any groupset from the 1980s and it would work OK. Often when building up older framesets there is a conflict between practicality and reliability on the one hand and period correctness etc on the other. IMHO this particular frameset will (if it is as I expect it to be) never be especially practical per se (the chrome, the skinny tyres, the lack of mudguard clearances) so that is arguably one less thing to worry about.

BTW on a practical note, it is very likely that the BB is threaded Italian.  When choosing parts it might make sense to get a BB and crankset you like the look of first, then to get everything else to match that.

BTW a left field choice that is certainly different, might match this particular frame well, and will have nods to modernity such as indexed gearing and aero brake levers etc would be a Shimano 'Sante' groupset.



BITD this was pitched between Ultegra and Dura-Ace, whilst being mechanically based on the former. Not my cup of tea (then or now), but these days something of a collector's item.

cheers