Talk to me about tubs

[rogerzilla]

I thought I ought to build a pair of tub track wheels before I die, and got some NOS FIR rims for £not much.  Will go the whole hog with cement.  I know cheap tubs have worse rolling resistance than wired-on tyres but Vredestein do good Fortezza tubs now with a very high thread count.

What's a good glue that stays tacky enough for a roadside fix, and how long do tyres last in storage (dark garage)?  It might take five years or more to wear them out.  I have wired-on tyres that old which are fine but does the glue do bad things to tubs?

[Hot Flatus]

You asked...

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=113&t=113082&start=75

[sojournermike]

Interesting. I look forward to hearing the answers.

I need to build some wheels for the Gillott later this year and quite fancy a set of Ghisallo wood rims and tubs for that. Listing with interest.

[giropaul]

As you mention using glue that allows changes I guess( hope) you aren’t actually going to use them on the track. There are very specific models of tyre allowed on velodromes, and they MUST be glued on very firmly ( I use a 3M product that grips very strongly).

For road use Continental glue,or Mariposa. I use thin layers of glue, and then Tufo tub tape on my road wheels. You need to get a layer of glue on the rim and the base tape first, and let that dry before finally sticking the tyre on.

In a cool, dry place, away from electric motors or any other ozone source tubs stored properly will be fine after several years. I have raced this year on team issue tubulars from the 1980s.

[mzjo]

The italian Tubasti tub glue that is the only one regularly in the shops around me is useless for changing tubs on the road, it is always so dry that changing a tub always means more glue.
Back in the 70's when I rode tubs all the time for training (and tting) I had some Dunlop tub cement that really did stay tacky; with that I could do two or three changes and the new tub still didn't move (as sometimes I had to when the hedges were trimmed around Aberystwyth).

[giropaul]

The italian Tubasti tub glue that is the only one regularly in the shops around me is useless for changing tubs on the road, it is always so dry that changing a tub always means more glue.
Back in the 70's when I rode tubs all the time for training (and tting) I had some Dunlop tub cement that really did stay tacky; with that I could do two or three changes and the new tub still didn't move (as sometimes I had to when the hedges were trimmed around Aberystwyth).

Which is why Dunlop cement was banned on the Continent- tubs rolled in hot weather or when the rims got hot on big descents. Clement red was the preferred option back then. I glued the tubs on for some of the top Kellogg’s riders back in the day, and never had one roll using Clement, despite some rides using very low pressures for wet circuits.

[Nick H.]

Does anyone use Tufo tape any more?

[Hot Flatus]

Yes they do but Effeto Mariposa Carogna tape is held in higher regard.

Very expensive way to attach tubs, mind you.

[giropaul]

Does anyone use Tufo tape any more?

Yes, but with a thin layer of Continental glue on the base tape and rim first.

[DuncanM]

I have a 7 or so used tub rims in the loft - mostly GP4, though some others. I bought them when my road bike was on tubs (10 years ago?), but I've moved to clinchers, so I'll never use them - if anyone on this thread is interested then I'll dig them out and stick them on the Free to a good home section.

[Torslanda]

Before you do that check out what NOS GP4 rims sell for on ebay.

Your next Audax bike might be self funding . . .

[rogerzilla]

Anyone tried Vredestein Fortezza Pro tubs?  I've done thousands of miles on the wired-on version over 12 years with only one puncture - and that was a snakebite caused by the mother of all potholes.  They are also very fast.

[resus1uk]

I ride trikes with Higgins/Rogers hubs. Not made now, so got two rear wheels with tubs as spares. I replaced the worn out tubs with a couple from Decathlon & stuck them on with tub tape after chiselling / scraping of the old glue.
Seem to work OK despite  a trikes corning stresses.

[DuncanM]

Before you do that check out what NOS GP4 rims sell for on ebay.

Your next Audax bike might be self funding . . .

They definitely aint NOS - still got (decades old) glue on them. I'll dig them out anyway - no use leaving them in the loft!

[Brucey]

for storage; the rules are cool, dry, dark.  BITD most of the better tubs had latex tubes and these limited the shelf life of the tyre even if the tread and carcass were OK.  Dunno if the Vredsteins you intend to buy have butyl or latex tubes...?

Wood rims are a lot of trouble, more than they are worth. For storage, a lot of riders de-tension the wheel over the winter, because the humidity usually increases and the rim can wreck itself in storage if it starts to swell.

BTW the Crr of tubs varies enormously depending on how well they are glued onto the rim and with what glue. I gave up using tubs for solo TTs in the 1980s when I worked out I was usually faster on (carefully chosen) HPs vs the tubs that I could afford to buy.....

cheers

[rogerzilla]

Weight saving compared to the wired-on tyres is about 150g per wheel (I'm assuming a Goldtec LF hub weighs about as much as a Miche hub - the spokes are the same in each wheel, 32 DT Revs).  A tub rim is much lighter than a wire-on rim.  The tyres are both Vredestein Fortezzas in 23mm but obviously of different construction.  The wired-on Fortezza has a Kevlar bead and is probably lighter than the tub.

2/3 lb is quite a lot; the difference between a 531 and 753 frameset, or between a superb and standard CF frameset.  Better, all the saving is at the rim.

Vittoria Mastik One seems to be the glue of choice these days.

[hubner]

I would say about 100g difference for the rim, and a racing tub (about 260g) is a bit lighter than a "open tubular" with a latex inner tube but not by that much, maybe 25g, mainly because the latex tube inside the tub is very thin.

A 400g sprint rim is heavy whereas the lightest clincher rim is about 420g. The lightest sprint rim is about 300g.

[hubner]

Does anyone use Tufo tape any more?

Yes, but with a thin layer of Continental glue on the base tape and rim first.

That seems to have the disadvantages of both; the tape makes a mess of the base tape, having to use glue at all.

[Samuel D]

The weight benefit is more than offset by the increased rolling resistance of road tubulars, although even that difference is small. Speaking of rolling resistance, Vredestein wouldn’t be my choice.

[rogerzilla]

I chose them based on many years' experience of the wired-on version.  They feel faster than Duranos or (shudder) Ultra HamsterSkins, the worst 700c tyres I have ever used but, more importantly, seem immune to visitations despite having no stiff Kevlar belt under the tread.  I know RR is slightly higher for tubs, all orher things beung equal, but I want to see how different they feel.

[DuncanM]

I got my tub rims out of the loft last night.
3 x Mavic GP4
1 x Mavic CX18
2 x Mavic hour record (gold anodised)
1 x Blue anodised no sticker
1 x Mavic Reflex (this one I bought new - is 14 years old).

There's also a GP4 rim on a front Shimano hub - at the very least it could do with a service.

All seem fairly solid but are covered in cement. What is the best way to remove the cement easily?

[sib]

You don't have to remove old cement - the solvent in any new cement will soften it when you fit a tub.
However there is this stuff if you do - Effetto Carogna Remover

[tatanab]

All seem fairly solid but are covered in cement. What is the best way to remove the cement easily?

I did this on a couple of rims where the glue was probably 20 years old.  It was very thick, hard and dry.  I found a quick way was using a sanding drum on  Dremel, the diameter of which is pretty close to the diameter of the well of the rim.  Very messy with dust and bits flying everywhere.  To finish off I removed the residue with acetone which is kept under the counter at Boots as "universal household solvent".