Author Topic: 1" headset/quill stem - bad idea or viable choice? (Read 5797 times)

Oxford_Guy · « **on:** 24 May, 2018, 02:11:28 pm »

I'm starting to plan a neo-retro steel-framed club/sportive/fast audax drop-bar bike (no loaded touring on this one, just a saddlebag at most), possibly a Mercian or Rourke, and one of the things I've been thinking about is the choice of headset/stem - mainly for aestehtic reasons I'm drawn towards putting on a 1" threaded headset (such as a Campagnolo Record one) and quill stem (e.g. Cinelli 1A), but is this still a reasonably sensible thing to do on this sort of bike? If it makes any difference I weigh about 11 1/2 stones (74Kg) and am about 5' 8" tall. I do remember when I had a quill stem on a (cheap) road bike in my teens that it could creak a bit, but hopefully this shouldn't be an issue with a decent headset and quill stem? Should a decent 1" threaded headset/quill stem still be stiff enough for the intended usage? Is there anything else I should be aware of or avoid if going this route? Thanks.

BTW I won't be doing any "racing", except in the sense of sportives.

tatanab · « **Reply #1 on:** 24 May, 2018, 02:58:06 pm »

Quote from: Oxford_Guy on 24 May, 2018, 02:11:28 pm

Should a decent 1" threaded headset/quill stem still be stiff enough for the intended usage?

Well it served millions of us very well for decades. In my stable of 8 machines all but one still has a quill stem. No creaking, no noticeable lack of stiffness.

This modern obsession with stiffness drives me nuts. Over size tubes, oversize stem and bars, deep section rims etc - then modern riders have to have gel in shorts, bar tape, mitts and saddle to counteract the vibrations. Perhaps the 1% difference in power transfer is noticable under extreme conditions, but how many people think it is better because the magazines and manufacturers tell them it must be?

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #2 on:** 24 May, 2018, 03:20:46 pm »

BTW I'm also planning on specifying non-oversize 28.6mm frame tubing, probably Reynokds 853 or maybe 853 Pro Team, it is the latter too fragile for Audax usage? Not sure whether to go lugged or not, but they are pretty...

Samuel D · « **Reply #3 on:** 24 May, 2018, 03:38:05 pm »

Any lack of stiffness will, first of all, likely not have a negative effect on performance. Energy does not disappear because you wind up a spring. The simplistic obsession with stiffness of the cycling press is unjustified.

Second, in all likelihood the smaller features of standard-gauge tubing and a quill stem improve performance by superior aerodynamics. Tom Anhalt reckons classic steel frames are more aerodynamic than fat-tubed carbon ones. It’s hard to imagine otherwise.

But all of these things are minor concerns. Your real question should be whether you want a threaded system with the associated risk of stem seizure in the fork. I’m not sure I would, although I like their visual elegance and many knowledgeable people still prefer the threaded-fork arrangement for a variety of practical reasons.

Standard-gauge tubing is more rugged than oversized in that it’s less likely to be dented in parking prangs, etc.

If you go for a steel frame and fork, there’s much to be said for using the classic dimensions that were not chosen accidentally but carefully optimised. It’s only recently that the need for change to justify higher pricing has spawned a great variety of dimensions with all sorts of claimed benefits.

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #4 on:** 24 May, 2018, 03:55:51 pm »

Quote from: Samuel D on 24 May, 2018, 03:38:05 pm

But all of these things are minor concerns. Your real question should be whether you want a threaded system with the associated risk of stem seizure in the fork. I’m not sure I would, although I like their visual elegance and many knowledgeable people still prefer the threaded-fork arrangement for a variety of practical reasons.

Any risk of seizure does worry me a little, especially as I recently discovered that on my steel-framed Hewitt Cheviot the aluminium seat post is stuck in the seat tube - entirely my fault, as in my ignorance I did not apply any anti-seize paste when I fitted the sear post after my last one was stolen 3 years ago... Surely there are ways to reduce the risk of seizure e.g.

a) using a good quality anti-seize compound on the threads/stem tube (e.g. Park Tool)
b) Unscrewing and removing the stem periodically (e.g. annually)

Would anything else help?

Or would there still be a risk of seizure? BTW this bike is mostly intended for spring/summer use, it's not going to be a winter commuter

Brucey · « **Reply #5 on:** 24 May, 2018, 04:12:00 pm »

risk of seizure is slight, with even a modicum of care and attention. On a bike that lives outdoors and is ridden daily, where I don't intend to take it out more than once every two years, I grease the stem and fit a snug plastic washer above the headset. This stops most of the water going anywhere, pretty much.

Another good trick is that if the stem is a slightly slack fit inside the steerer, you can put a few turns of PTFE tape round the stem, so that it becomes a tight fit when the stem is pushed down the last 1" or so. This helps to keep water out too.

IME A-head arrangements are much less resistant to the weather; most of them leak at the top and let water into the head tube/headset bearings rather badly.

Quill stems are not going anywhere; Nitto ones are very popular and Cinelli have started to make classic designs such as the 1A again.

I've owned very may different bikes with quill and A-head stems and on average the former have been nicer to ride, with less time spent faffing about with the headset; between leakage, crap design and a few other things A-head headsets are liable to be a consumable. The only clear win is when setting the bike for the first time; swapping A-head stems is a fair bit easier, but only because quill stems (quite rightly) eschew the ugliness of a removable face plate....

cheers

mrcharly-YHT · « **Reply #6 on:** 24 May, 2018, 04:36:57 pm »

You will die within 10 miles of mounting such a death trap. The stem will seize in place immediately, then snap and impale you.

It is an excellent idea. Quill stems offer height adjustability and elegance completely missing from modern systems. They don't seize when greased (which they should be). I've never had one seize. The flex is more comfortable. I've never had one break, either. Eddy Merckx didn't break his, so I doubt you will.
It is a pain in the proverbial to change the bars though and you will have to remove the tape to do so.

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 May, 2018, 04:39:01 pm »

Thanks Brucey, sounds like I should be okay, with some precautions when installing (which the bike shop will be doing, not me) and annual maintenance (i.e removing/re-greasing the stem).

BTW is the Campagnolo Record 1" threaded headset an okay choice? It has loose bearings, rather than the sealed cartridge type, but AFAIk does have a grease port, so maintenance should be relatively straightforward. Reviews I've read seem to imply the overall quality is good.

tatanab · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 May, 2018, 05:08:32 pm »

Recommendation for a quill stem - Nitto Pearl. They out shine Cinelli in finish and in pinch bolt arrangement, and they have a wedge for locking rather than an expander. I have found wedges less likely to seize, not that I've had more than a temporary nip up. In use I have Nitto, Cinelli and 3ttt stems.

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 May, 2018, 05:14:20 pm »

Quote from: tatanab on 24 May, 2018, 05:08:32 pm

Recommendation for a quill stem - Nitto Pearl. They out shine Cinelli in finish and in pinch bolt arrangement, and they have a wedge for locking rather than an expander. I have found wedges less likely to seize, not that I've had more than a temporary nip up. In use I have Nitto, Cinelli and 3ttt stems.

Thanks, useful to know! The bike will probably be getting a Nitto seatpost too, unless I can find a nice old Campagnolo one...

Though didn't the infamous Cinelli 1R use a wedge, and that creaked?

zigzag · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 May, 2018, 06:44:11 pm »

it's worth researching beforehand if the handlebar type/shape you prefer is manufactured in 26mm clamp diameter. the last time i looked there were none that suit me (only the old school ones that keep hitting forearms when riding out of saddle).

mattc · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 May, 2018, 06:53:14 pm »

Quote from: zigzag on 24 May, 2018, 06:44:11 pm

(only the old school ones that keep hitting forearms when riding out of saddle).

There's another thing that didn't seem to bother Merckx et al ... #retrogrouch

rogerzilla · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 May, 2018, 07:28:19 pm »

The market (proprietary stuff aside) has settled on quill stems for 1" and Aheadstems for 1 1/8". There are 1" Aheadsets but they never caught on and no-one makes 1" Aheadstems so you need to fit a 1 1/8" stem plus a shim. 1 1/8" threaded headsets and quills also exist but are now rare outside Bromptonland.

There is no futureproofing issue with 1" threaded. It is technically inferior (I have a 1" A-head bike and it's much more solid when honking uphill). An A-head only looks pretty on a vintage-style bike if you seek out a polished stem, though.

rogerzilla · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 May, 2018, 07:31:12 pm »

Quote from: Oxford_Guy on 24 May, 2018, 05:14:20 pm

Quote from: tatanab on 24 May, 2018, 05:08:32 pm
Recommendation for a quill stem - Nitto Pearl. They out shine Cinelli in finish and in pinch bolt arrangement, and they have a wedge for locking rather than an expander. I have found wedges less likely to seize, not that I've had more than a temporary nip up. In use I have Nitto, Cinelli and 3ttt stems.

Thanks, useful to know! The bike will probably be getting a Nitto seatpost too, unless I can find a nice old Campagnolo one...

Though didn't the infamous Cinelli 1R use a wedge, and that creaked?

I think the 1R was the one with an alloy expander bolt. I sold one last year. No way was I going to ride it!

zigzag · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 May, 2018, 07:34:27 pm »

Quote from: mattc on 24 May, 2018, 06:53:14 pm

Quote from: zigzag on 24 May, 2018, 06:44:11 pm
(only the old school ones that keep hitting forearms when riding out of saddle).

There's another thing that didn't seem to bother Merckx et al ... #retrogrouch

as great as he was why should i care or copy what he used? i make my choices based on what works for me!

i used to have a neo-retro bike about a decade ago (when i was a clueless grasshopper and was fooled by the whole "steel is real" idea, that was quite fresh back then), it had some nice features, but overall, ergonomically and performance wise, it was pants.

Brucey · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 May, 2018, 07:40:57 pm »

Quote from: Oxford_Guy on 24 May, 2018, 04:39:01 pm

Thanks Brucey, sounds like I should be okay, with some precautions when installing (which the bike shop will be doing, not me) and annual maintenance (i.e removing/re-greasing the stem).

BTW is the Campagnolo Record 1" threaded headset an okay choice? It has loose bearings, rather than the sealed cartridge type, but AFAIk does have a grease port, so maintenance should be relatively straightforward. Reviews I've read seem to imply the overall quality is good.

The campag headset is very good indeed, provided it is fitted, adjusted and lubricated correctly. You can easily kill any headset by simply adjusting it too tightly and the better the bearing quality the more likely it is to happen (you don't feel the excessive preload when the bearings are good quality). You get more, larger ball bearings in a traditional headset so they are (for any given size) almost invariably much stronger than ones with cartridge bearings. Because they have fewer places to rattle, they rattle less if the adjustment is set a bit slack, too.

IIRC the campag record headset use balls in a clip that is (unlike cheaper headsets) designed so that you have almost as many balls in the headset as you can fit. There are seals to keep the worst of the crud out and on bike with mudguards fitted they can last, well, indefinitely.

In many recent versions the lower race is populated with 3/16" balls and the upper with 5/32" ones. Older ones (eg NR) used 3/16" balls top and bottom, and have no seals.

If you are on a budget a Tange Levin steel headset is almost as good and is based on the design of the old NR 'pista' headset, thus having 5/32" balls top and bottom and (unlike the campag one) it has seals.

With any headset on a mudguardless bike you can protect the lower race by installing a tiny shield that covers the back of the lower race. This will keep the worst of the crud away from the bearings.

BTW I prefer a conical expander on a quill stem, but hey....

cheers

mattc · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 May, 2018, 07:42:29 pm »

Quote from: zigzag on 24 May, 2018, 07:34:27 pm

Quote from: mattc on 24 May, 2018, 06:53:14 pm
Quote from: zigzag on 24 May, 2018, 06:44:11 pm
(only the old school ones that keep hitting forearms when riding out of saddle).

There's another thing that didn't seem to bother Merckx et al ... #retrogrouch

as great as he was why should i care or copy what he used? i make my choices based on what works for me!

i used to have a neo-retro bike about a decade ago (when i was a clueless grasshopper and was fooled by the whole "steel is real" idea, that was quite fresh back then), it had some nice features, but overall, ergonomically and performance wise, it was pants.

rafletcher · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 May, 2018, 07:45:15 pm »

Quote from: Oxford_Guy on 24 May, 2018, 03:20:46 pm

BTW I'm also planning on specifying non-oversize 28.6mm frame tubing, probably Reynokds 853 or maybe 853 Pro Team, it is the latter too fragile for Audax usage? Not sure whether to go lugged or not, but they are pretty...

If pros can race on it (they certainly did on 753) it’ll do you, and feel great.

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #18 on:** 24 May, 2018, 08:10:40 pm »

Quote from: zigzag on 24 May, 2018, 06:44:11 pm

it's worth researching beforehand if the handlebar type/shape you prefer is manufactured in 26mm clamp diameter. the last time i looked there were none that suit me (only the old school ones that keep hitting forearms when riding out of saddle).

I also will need one which will have a suitable clamp angle for the 2006-era 10 speed Campagnolo Veloce shifters I want to use on the bike (which are currently having their innards replaced).... But aren't there more options now than there were a few years ago due to the rise in popularity of retro bike styles, with Eroica etc.?

Torslanda · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 May, 2018, 08:31:46 pm »

Quote

An A-head only looks pretty on a vintage-style bike if you seek out a polished stem, though.

Worth it if you seek out an internal wedge style aheadstem - Zoom were popular & IIRC 3T made on called 'Mutant'.

The very worst look is a 1" quill stem adapter with a 1 ¹/₈" ahead stem on it. Just don't . . .

Also. Avoid any stem that has an alloy wedge. Even if you've used plenty antsieze. DAHIKT.

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #20 on:** 24 May, 2018, 08:59:56 pm »

Quote from: Torslanda on 24 May, 2018, 08:31:46 pm

Quote
An A-head only looks pretty on a vintage-style bike if you seek out a polished stem, though.

Worth it if you seek out an internal wedge style aheadstem - Zoom were popular & IIRC 3T made on called 'Mutant'.

The very worst look is a 1" quill stem adapter with a 1 ¹/₈" ahead stem on it. Just don't . . .

Also. Avoid any stem that has an alloy wedge. Even if you've used plenty antsieze. DAHIKT.

I assume the wedge in the Bottom Pearl is not alloy then?

Torslanda · « **Reply #21 on:** 24 May, 2018, 09:10:21 pm »

Don't know, sorry. My nemesis was an ITM Status that cost £££LOTS to remove.

LittleWheelsandBig · « **Reply #22 on:** 24 May, 2018, 09:25:50 pm »

The wedge you are talking about with Cinelli 1R stems clamps the handlebars with a hidden bolt. It is a dodgy arrangement. Everybody else is talking about a wedge expander in the quill. I prefer wedges (Al or Fe) to cone expanders and haven't had too many problems with either, provided grease/ antiseize is used.

Brucey · « **Reply #23 on:** 24 May, 2018, 09:33:35 pm »

BITD yer weight weenie upgrade for a 1A stem was to use (in place of the steel parts) an ergal bolt and an alloy cone. Worked fine if not neglected.

I have made my own hollow steel bolts and alloy cones. Same outcome.

cheers

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #24 on:** 24 May, 2018, 09:51:30 pm »

Quote from: zigzag on 24 May, 2018, 06:44:11 pm

it's worth researching beforehand if the handlebar type/shape you prefer is manufactured in 26mm clamp diameter. the last time i looked there were none that suit me (only the old school ones that keep hitting forearms when riding out of saddle).

Actually this might be an issue, I'm not so keen on the Noodle bar shape that seems common on bikes with quill stems :-(