Author Topic: LED room lighting (again)  (Read 70611 times)

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #250 on: 28 January, 2018, 12:24:44 am »
Sainsbury's now stock the R63 7w (60w equivalent) E27 fitting, lamps that adorn my kitchen for £5.

I've just fitted one of these to replace yet another from the long-life lamp company.
We will see...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #251 on: 19 September, 2018, 02:19:18 pm »
I've just replaced one of our last halucinogens, which had succumbed to accidental damage, with a 6500K "daylight" LED. It's visibly bluer and brighter than the other bulbs, which are all LEDs of various sorts, in the same room. I wouldn't say it looks like daylight; in daylight it reminds me of the light from my IQ-X. We'll see this evening what it's like in the dark, which is obviously what counts. It claims a life "up to 25 years" but as per the first sentence, accidental impact seems to be the demise of a lot of bulbs of whatever technology. Best of all though, it was only £1 for a two-pack in Wilko's! (I think the cashier might have made a mistake – I'm sure the shelf price was £6 – I queried it and she was adamant, so... )
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

andytheflyer

  • Andytheex-flyer.....
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #252 on: 19 September, 2018, 02:42:16 pm »
It claims a life "up to 25 years"

Good luck with that. I've taken to writing the date I fitted an led bulb on the bulb itself so that I can go back to our local leccy bits wholesaler and shout at them when they fail. Usually by flickering, then dying altogether.  Pathetic lifespans. Don't think I've had more than a couple of years at maybe 25% duty max, and in some cases a lot less.  I've had some leds that have failed at maybe <1000 hours and have been replaced at no cost by the local supplier (an electrical contractor).

With the precious metals that must be in the electronics, don't tell me that they are good for the environment.  And don't start me off on anthropogenic causes of climate change.......

Time someone sued these charlatans for fraud.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #253 on: 19 September, 2018, 02:49:03 pm »
Sainsbury's now stock the R63 7w (60w equivalent) E27 fitting, lamps that adorn my kitchen for £5.

I've just fitted one of these to replace yet another from the long-life lamp company.
We will see...

Shhh...

No failures since January according to my records!

Maybe the Sainsbury's lamps are better.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #254 on: 19 September, 2018, 07:54:33 pm »
I don't think I like the "daylight" bulbs. They're cold and flat. Like fluorescent tubes rather than daylight.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

arabella

  • عربللا
  • onwendeð wyrda gesceaft weoruld under heofonum
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #255 on: 19 September, 2018, 09:43:21 pm »
the most recent IET magazine is about lighting.
They are trying to say that LED flicker isn't really a problem.
I should probably write to them with suitable references, I will use anything useful in the thread above, and elsewhere.
Please
(i) encourage me
(ii) remind me of that ref istr about LED flicker, and is it 'official' research or opinion?
Any fool can admire a mountain.  It takes real discernment to appreciate the fens.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #256 on: 19 September, 2018, 09:52:07 pm »
This? https://theconversation.com/leds-could-be-harmful-to-health-the-eu-halogen-ban-will-make-it-worse-102589
Research by "Arnold J Wilkins
Professor of Psychology, University of Essex

Disclosure statement
Arnold J Wilkins contributed to the IEEE1789 standard on LED lighting, but receives no funding from government or industry."
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

ian

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #257 on: 19 September, 2018, 09:57:18 pm »
I will say that after five years, our first LED in the kitchen (from LEDHut) died a few weeks back. Our handyman got fed up with my persistent failure to replace it (I was getting around to it, jeez, it had only been three weeks!) and put a new one in for me. He didn't charge me, so I have no idea how much it cost.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #258 on: 19 September, 2018, 10:31:19 pm »
This? https://theconversation.com/leds-could-be-harmful-to-health-the-eu-halogen-ban-will-make-it-worse-102589
Research by "Arnold J Wilkins
Professor of Psychology, University of Essex

Here, have some SCIENCE with that: https://www1.essex.ac.uk/psychology/overlays/2010-195.pdf

AIUI Wilkins's work on visual stress is considered somewhat controversial, not sure how much that extends to lighting.

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #259 on: 21 September, 2018, 09:27:11 am »
https://standards.ieee.org/standard/1789-2015.html

There's an IEEE standard ^^

There's research into effects on health.

Problem is many people can't see them, but those with autism, migraine, epilepsy and some kinds of visual stress linked to dyslexia are more likely to be able to see it, or get headaches from them. A lot of places with lighting I can't bear have staff approaching me to say "I get headaches that stop when I'm off work/weekends".... But not bad ones, so they just put up with it...

Also Philips Vue bulbs can get in the bin, their flicker pattern was peculiar!

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #260 on: 21 September, 2018, 09:34:01 am »
Do you know if that standard has any legal application?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #261 on: 21 September, 2018, 12:39:19 pm »
Probably not.

There's very limited legal application for 'buildings' beyond basic health and safety requirements.

Part M of the building regulations is like a minimum standard but good luck enforcing it. BS8300 has more guidance but is 'guidance' and barely covers lighting.

That's half the issue. There is lighting which is making people ill and no way of preventing organisations from installing it.

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #262 on: 21 September, 2018, 01:25:41 pm »
It may be that the standard has limited legal force however most clients will have in their standards for a design specification (their contractual terms) that it must be in accordance with the relevant standards. Therefore it sounds like the architects need to learn that the standard exists and should be applied.

fruitcake

  • some kind of fruitcake
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #263 on: 22 September, 2018, 04:47:07 pm »
I see flicker that others don't (and I get migraine). My superpower is telling people when one of their flourescent tubes has reached end of life and is about to go pop. I discovered this ability as a teenager, when I'd tell my Dad the light was flickering more than usual, he'd say it's fine, and within a fortnight it would die. I also see flicker on the LED indicators on old battery chargers.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #264 on: 24 September, 2018, 01:28:51 pm »
As both Mrs Cudzo and I dislike the "daylight" LEDs and our son likes them, I've moved them from the living room to his room. In doing so, I found his room was lit by a CFL and a 60W tungsten filament bulb. I found another CFL in the hall, but pass-the-bulb has meant all three of these are now sitting in a box as spares, replaced by (non-daylight) LEDs. As he's always leaving his light on, in this case we might even see an almost noticeable reduction in consumption.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #265 on: 24 September, 2018, 01:48:37 pm »
On a related note, what is it with rich people and light bulbs?  This weekend's FNRttC lead us through the Moor Park Estate - a private road of ludicrous mansions with extensive traffic calming.  While modern LED fixtures were occasionally in evidence, there was more hot tungsten in their driveway lighting than I've years.

Barakta's stepfather's the same.  An eclectic mix of halogen and - as if to prove that it isn't some fussiness about the quality of the light output - bottom-of-the-range flickery CFLs.  His central heating timer is permanently set to 'on', too.

As for 'daylight', I wonder if this is going to be a generational thing, with 2700K lighting dying out with those of us who were brought up with incandescent lighting.  I know I associate orange light with warmth, but if younger generations don't have that association, why have lighting in unnatural colours?

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #266 on: 24 September, 2018, 02:04:23 pm »
As for 'daylight', I wonder if this is going to be a generational thing, with 2700K lighting dying out with those of us who were brought up with incandescent lighting.  I know I associate orange light with warmth, but if younger generations don't have that association, why have lighting in unnatural colours?
I was wondering along the same lines. But Cdzzmc Jnr has grown up so far on tungsten, CFL, full size fluorescent tubes, and 2700K LED (not necessarily in that order). So I don't think he's quite that generation – maybe Nye is, but I expect it's the generation just being born. He prefers the 6500K because he reckons it's brighter, whereas we reckon it's harsh. It certainly doesn't look anything like daylight to me – as I think I said earlier (though possibly in another thread), it reminds me of my IQ-X more than anything else. But these are only cheapies from Wilko.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

ian

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #267 on: 24 September, 2018, 02:09:41 pm »
I think people, even rich ones, only change the outside lighting when the bulb dies. The security lights at the back of my house are still halogen but they're mostly off. I did replace the lights on the front of the house as they're on from dusk till about 1am (and in the mornings during winter). It's pitch black once the streetlight goes off at midnight.

In other news, I'm a mushy ambient light sort of person. Spare me the harsh, angry photons.

Kim

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    • Fediverse
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #268 on: 24 September, 2018, 02:15:44 pm »
As for 'daylight', I wonder if this is going to be a generational thing, with 2700K lighting dying out with those of us who were brought up with incandescent lighting.  I know I associate orange light with warmth, but if younger generations don't have that association, why have lighting in unnatural colours?
I was wondering along the same lines. But Cdzzmc Jnr has grown up so far on tungsten, CFL, full size fluorescent tubes, and 2700K LED (not necessarily in that order). So I don't think he's quite that generation – maybe Nye is, but I expect it's the generation just being born. He prefers the 6500K because he reckons it's brighter, whereas we reckon it's harsh. It certainly doesn't look anything like daylight to me – as I think I said earlier (though possibly in another thread), it reminds me of my IQ-X more than anything else. But these are only cheapies from Wilko.

Proper daylight lamps (of the sort an artist might use for jibbling paints) are quite daylighty, but you only notice if you compare them to actual daylight (which you tend not to do, because you don't need the lights on), or are white-balancing cameras.  Humans are brilliant at deluding themselves that any given colour is 'white', and they all look wrong out of context.

Cheap (or highly power efficient) 6500K cold white LED/fluorescents manage the blueness of daylight, without the colour rendering, and I agree that they can be distinctly odd.  I quite like that sort of light for things like cleaning and cooking, and it seems to work well enough for streetlighting and vehicle lights, but I prefer something warmer for general illumination.

Kim

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    • Fediverse
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #269 on: 24 September, 2018, 02:20:36 pm »
I think people, even rich ones, only change the outside lighting when the bulb dies. The security lights at the back of my house are still halogen but they're mostly off. I did replace the lights on the front of the house as they're on from dusk till about 1am (and in the mornings during winter). It's pitch black once the streetlight goes off at midnight.

Yeahbut these ones were all lit up at 2am, not on PIRs or anything.

Dr Biggles isn't big on turning lights off either, other than when going out or at bed time.  I expect he's got a bulk box of mains-voltage halogens he bought in 1994 or something, though, and the CFLs represent the times he jumped in the car and went to B&Q rather than rummaging in the garage.


Quote
In other news, I'm a mushy ambient light sort of person. Spare me the harsh, angry photons.

I like to have the option.  Subdued light for general living, but I want something obnoxiously bright I can turn on for cleaning, searching for pingfuckits, or doing something fiddly.  So either dimmers, or a really bright ceiling lamp that's normally ignored in favour of smaller lamps.

ian

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #270 on: 24 September, 2018, 02:48:10 pm »
Well, the lights on the front of our house are on all the time (which is why they now have LED bulbs) – our next door neighbour is the same, though I suspect she may still be on the tungsten). I'd imagine private estates probably have poor lighting. Ours are on so people can see the house name and preferably not crash into the fence. We do have one streetlight but we have several tall trees which block out the light. The original lights were PIR activated but we had that removed in favour of a timer. The lights around the side and back are all PIR activated, apart from the ones strung between the balcony and garage which have an on-off switch. They exist for BBQs, though I'm not sure why we bothered, as soon as I think of hosting a BBQ, the weather forecast occludes.

Hmm, yes, we have a lot of lights.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #271 on: 24 September, 2018, 04:01:29 pm »
If they're on a timer, why are they on all the time? My guess is the BEARS have eaten the clock.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

ian

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #272 on: 24 September, 2018, 04:40:51 pm »
Sorry, I meant they were always on when it's dark. There's a light/dark sensor and a timer. I use the timer (which has the most inaccurate clock ever). Obviously, the main reason for the lights is so that we can see the bears. They hate it when you walk into them.

I did once almost trip over a badger. But that was down the road.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #273 on: 24 September, 2018, 04:46:05 pm »
Our outside lamp is twenty years old. I’ve only changed it once and when I did that I put it on a proximity sensor. It is incandescent.
It is simpler than it looks.

PaulF

  • "World's Scariest Barman"
  • It's only impossible if you stop to think about it
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #274 on: 24 September, 2018, 04:49:35 pm »
Our outside lamp is twenty years old. I’ve only changed it once and when I did that I put it on a proximity sensor. It is incandescent.

Well I’d be pretty miffed if you only gave me any attention once every 20 years ;D