Post by: yoav on 11 January, 2021, 01:26:28 pm
Anyway, it’s time to replace them so my question is, is it worth the hassle or should I stick with tubed tyres such as the Marathons? Supplementary question: I see that Shand now fit the Stoater with Schwalbe G-One Allround tubeless tyres, the tread on these looks very similar to the Conti Cyclocross I have now so would these be a good tyre dip into the world of tubeless?
Thanks for any help.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 11 January, 2021, 01:37:49 pm
If its a late april to october bike, then maybe no. If it is not used regularly (ie. at least fortnightly) then maybe no. If you are technically useless and not prepared to learn then definitely no.
Everything else, yes.
Advantages:
You can run them at lower pressures than you can tubed without risk of snake bite. Very useful if you need more grip or want a plush ride.
You still have to do maintenance on them (pumping tyres more regularly than tubed, topping up sealant) but this is generally done at a time and place of your choosing and not in the pissing rain at the side of a road, in the dark, in december, when it is freezing, and you are cold and tired and just want to get home.
The racier tubeless tyres are starting to give tubulars a run for their money in terms of ride feel.
Blowouts highly unlikely.
In 5.5 years of using them in all conditions I have only twice had to stop and put a tube in (ie. exactly what I would have had to do with EVERY puncture on a tubed tyre) They aren't infallible. You can still get sidewall cuts, gashes etc that would see off any tyre. You can get punctures that are too big for the sealant to deal with, but dynoplugs will, in most case, sort these. What you won't have to do is stop everytime you get a puncture, change the tube, pump it up, carefully examine the tyre for the perpetrator, and then stop a few miles up the road when it punctures again.
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 11 January, 2021, 01:39:04 pm
The G-one is what I use on my audax bike and they roll nicely.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 11 January, 2021, 01:49:55 pm
Anyway, it’s time to replace them so my question is, is it worth the hassle or should I stick with tubed tyres such as the Marathons? Supplementary question: I see that Shand now fit the Stoater with Schwalbe G-One Allround tubeless tyres, the tread on these looks very similar to the Conti Cyclocross I have now so would these be a good tyre dip into the world of tubeless?
I have a pair of G-One allround, but with tubes, I was really impressed with how fast they roll. I used them on an off road bike packing tour in Germany. I don't know how the tubeless version compares to the non tubeless version.
I'm still umming and ahring about tubeless. In many respects it feels like it could be a *LOT* of faff at 3am on a mountain side in the rain. On the other hand, it could prevent me from having to swap a tube on a mountain side at 3am in the rain... But my usecase is not that of a typical cyclist.
I think it may also depend a lot on where you cycle. I had 10 flats in 600km cycling through Northern Germany, Denmark and Sweden, yet average about 1 every 8000km or so cycling in .NL/.BE/.DE (Western)/.CH. And that's with the broken glass that is a substantial component of fietspad surfacing. This is using Conti GP5K tyres (GP4kii for the scandi trip).
I do use the conti's off road, but that's cos I'm an idiot...
J
Post by: sojournermike on 11 January, 2021, 09:42:20 pm
Post by: Ben T on 11 January, 2021, 11:04:01 pm
Post by: Bolt on 11 January, 2021, 11:08:02 pm
Post by: Frank9755 on 13 January, 2021, 06:27:54 am
I've used tubeless since 2015. I've needed to stop and put a tube in just twice in 30-40,000 km. Both would have been avoidable with a bit of thought and care.
Post by: aidan.f on 13 January, 2021, 07:03:14 am
Post by: sojournermike on 13 January, 2021, 08:02:26 am
Would anyone like to offer an opinion as to whether they may be a problem with tubeless tyres rolling off when subjected to severe lateral forces. I'm talking tricycles. Only reason to change would be the potential ride quality improvement of running lower pressure.
That’s a good question! I think with the right rims you’d probably be fine. However, they do present different failure modes to tubes in a tricycle I think - I presume a flat tubed tyre will roll off during a corner? A tubeless tyre on a decent rim would be more secure in that circumstance, though you’d still shift it eventually of course. The failure I’d think about is if the combination of rim allowed the tyre bead to move in the seat and hence unseal under high lateral load. This is more likely if the tyre is newly installed and the sealant hasn’t set n any micro gaps or if the sealant is allowed to run dry. On a bicycle if you let this happen it eventually goes flat slowly, but tends to be undramatic (I descended Greenhow Hill with a very flat rear as consequence of being lazy once and the tyre stayed on the rim, although it was quite squirmy!)
So, if it was me, I’d make sure I was using rims that have good retention (Kinlin 22t, 26t or 31t work well) and give myself a couple of days occasionally spinning the wheel after installation - or just ride easy for a couple of days.
I don’t know how much lateral force you actually build up on a trike either? Bike wheels are especially strong laterally, so if anyone knows I’d be interested to find out?
Mike
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 13 January, 2021, 09:24:48 am
Post by: sojournermike on 13 January, 2021, 09:33:35 am
I have been thinking about this possibility for a couple of years. I think tubeless would work well on a trike, given how tight most tubeless tyres are and the preference for wide rims. I would stick with beaded rims and slightly higher pressures (not cyclocross low) though.
I have a set of 28mm Conti GP5000 tubeless on a pair of 23mm internal rims (light bicycle AR56) that I think would meet this criteria.
Post by: Brucey on 13 January, 2021, 10:01:04 am
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0202/9884/files/Diagram_Tires_1024x1024.jpg?v=1499979714)
but then there is no guarantee that tyres and rims will work together as advertised. There never has been, and the required tolerances for tubeless are considerably higher than for other tyres. This was highlighted for me shortly after the announcement of the 'new tubeless tyre standard' (to widespread fanfares and jubilation): I helped someone fit a tubeless tyre to a tubeless rim, and basically it didn't ****in' work. The tyre was too loose on the rim, so wouldn't seat unless a booster bottle was used, and then wouldn't stay seated for long enough to get the valve core in. Now I am a pretty persistent kind of a chap but I do tend to lose patience with obvious rubbish and after about fifteen goes I was all for packing it in. However my chum (somehow) found the motivation to carry on and by some miracle attempt number twenty-something was successful.
Now you might put this down to being 'just one of those things' but it happened that both the tyre and the rim were from the same manufacturer and furthermore that manufacturer has taken a leading role in the development of the new standard. So if they can't make it work reliably with their own stuff then I'd say the chances of random combinations of various people's rubbish working consistently as advertised are not that good. Put it this way I'm not holding my breath any more than most tubeless tyres actually achieve their raison d'etre which is to hold air. Some folk with long memories may remember it being a PITA with some tubs because they had flimsy latex tubes inside them which leaked air and you had to pump them up every time you rode the bike; its deja vu all over again in C21 with tubeless tyres.... ::-)
IME tubeless tyres need to be a tight fit on the rim otherwise they are liable to be a problem when being fitted because they won't stay seated. However if they 'fit well' in this regard they are invariably more difficult to unseat too when this is required. Some folk have given up with tubeless rims because (regardless of the type of tyre fitted to them) they feel that they would be unable to get the tyre off at the roadside.
Above you will see a version of one of the choice phrases that is trotted out by tubeless advocates which is generally along the lines of "I've only had to put a tube a few times and it was no bother because it is exactly what I'd have done with a tubed tyre anyway".
Ladies and gentlemen, this is what we scientists call "a lie".
When you get to the point you need to put a tube in a tubeless tyre you have of course already exhausted the gamut of possibilities involving sealant, daft things you are meant to stick in the hole etc. Then you need to break the seal of the tyre bead, which shouldn't be easy because of the tight fit but is also hindered by any dried sealant there might be under the bead. When you finally get the tyre bead off the rim you may wish you hadn't, because the liquid sealant in the tyre will start puking out everywhere even if it hasn't done so already. Sealant is intended to stick to surfaces and unfortunately most forms of clothing represent an ideal substrate. Many type of clothing are instantly ruined by contact with sealant. Now the tubeless valve stem has to come out of the rim. You will need pliers for this since the cretins that design this rubbish have not thought it through far enough. A (hopefully brief) 'slime wrestling' bout will then ensue as you try and get the tube into the tyre, only the tyre and the rim are not designed to accommodate a tube, leave alone one which is now covered in slimy crap. And the tyre will be tight going on again too, even if you don't pinch the tube against those often pointlessly, er, pointy lips inside the rim.
The whole performance has then to be repeated when you get home and do a 'proper repair', assuming that the tyre isn't going straight in the bin.
Needless to say this does not in any way resemble what happens when a puncture occurs with tubed tyres on appropriate rims, (provided you have not accidentally ended up with a bad pairing of tyre and rim that is tighter than it should be).
FWIW there are benefits to tubeless eg
1) if you think you might have a high speed blowout, the tyre staying on the rim better (because it is tighter) is a bit safer and
2) if for some reason you are determined to use tyres (eg all year round) which have all the structural integrity of a lightly reinforced condom, then it is possible you may spend less time (net) by the roadside fixing punctures.
But you would need to have a lot of punctures to make the latter thing true, assuming that you are remotely competent at whacking a new tube in; this ought to take about a couple of minutes if you are in a hurry, and about twice as long if you check the tyre for sharps like you should do.
FWIW I may regret saying this but I have not had a puncture through the tread for about two years, during which time I have done enough miles across several bikes to have worn tyres out, suffered carcass failures and goodness knows what else. I use the lightest and fastest tyres you can buy when the situation merits it (which is not often), but guess I have done most miles on training tyres which are typically 50-100g heavier than really lightweight tyres. And I do check them for flints fairly regularly. So if you are happy to use tyres like that then tubeless is perhaps "a solution looking for a problem".
I am currently pondering a new wheelset and I might try tubeless again. My fallback plan is that if/when I get pissed off with it (again) I may just grind the extra lips off the inside of the rims. We shall see.
cheers
Post by: Hot Flatus on 13 January, 2021, 10:12:11 am
Talk about not holding air ;)
Post by: Brucey on 13 January, 2021, 10:28:50 am
I've got to the point now, 5.5 years in to using tubeless, employing 3 different wheelsets, and 6 different types/brands of tyre, that I just consider Brucey as a sort of gaslighting windbag
Talk about not holding air ;)
Kool-Aid tastes nice does it...?
Post by: Hot Flatus on 13 January, 2021, 10:43:18 am
God knows how we ever managed to install a tubeless tyre. Nor how all of the tyres we have installed have performed brilliantly. Nor how we even managed to remove a tubeless tyre because oh my god sealant.
I think your difficulties carrying out what are very simple mechanical procedures probably tell us something about the esteem in which we should hold you.
Post by: Feanor on 13 January, 2021, 10:45:19 am
It's organised by an outfit called tda global:
https://tdaglobalcycling.com/
The route contains a mix of reasonable roads and rougher unsurfaced roads.
We have bought Shand Stoaters which are all-purpose bikes, gravel bikes as they are called these days.
These are tubeless.
They send out a bulletin every few weeks on various topics.
On the subject of tyres, somewhat surprisingly advised going with tubes, because they they found that people didnt have the capability to reliably re-seat tubeless on-the-road.
I expect I will go with the existing tubeless setup, but carry tubes for the rare case where I can't get things to seal.
Post by: rafletcher on 13 January, 2021, 10:45:53 am
Regarding one of Brucey's many points, seating initially can indeed be a pain. I've never managed it without at least a booster pump. Usually I bung a tube in, pump it up to 120-140psi and get the bead seated that way, and leave it for a couple of days in the warm. I'll then pop one bead off - the other stays locked - and remove the tube before (again, probably using a booster) reseating the popped bead. After that the beads stay locked, so putting in sealant and valve core is no problem.
In use, where I've removed a tyre at a later date, I've sometimes ('cos I'm a wuss( had to resort to mechanical means to get the bead to unseat.
Like ANY tyre and rim combination, some work better than others.
Post by: rafletcher on 13 January, 2021, 10:49:34 am
On the subject of tyres, somewhat surprisingly advised going with tubes, because they they found that people didnt have the capability to reliably re-seat tubeless on-the-road.
I expect I will go with the existing tubeless setup, but carry tubes for the rare case where I can't get things to seal.
I'd need to use a CO2 shot to reseat a tubeless roadside I think, and that's often contra-indicated with sealant - the sharp drop in temperature can apparently "set" it. No idea how true that is of course as I've never experimented to find out. Perhaps other hear can comment more authoratively.
Post by: Pedal Castro on 13 January, 2021, 10:50:26 am
My last puncture was a 12mm sidewall gash 80k into a 200. A plastic fiver boot and new tube was a lot easier than it would have been if the tyre had been full of sealant surely?
Post by: JonBuoy on 13 January, 2021, 10:50:56 am
Post by: L CC on 13 January, 2021, 10:54:47 am
Very happy with the tubeless as arrived on my latest bike. If/when it needs maintenance, the LBS will get some business out of me. This is true for pretty much every aspect of it, from Tyres to Tape.
Post by: Feanor on 13 January, 2021, 10:56:07 am
It can't be exposure to air: the tyre is full of air!
Post by: Hot Flatus on 13 January, 2021, 10:56:56 am
We are signed up for a supported long-distance bike ride down the length of South America.
It's organised by an outfit called tda global:
https://tdaglobalcycling.com/
The route contains a mix of reasonable roads and rougher unsurfaced roads.
We have bought Shand Stoaters which are all-purpose bikes, gravel bikes as they are called these days.
These are tubeless.
They send out a bulletin every few weeks on various topics.
On the subject of tyres, somewhat surprisingly advised going with tubes, because they they found that people didnt have the capability to reliably re-seat tubeless on-the-road.
I expect I will go with the existing tubeless setup, but carry tubes for the rare case where I can't get things to seal.
I'm not sure in which circumstance, on the roadside, you would try to reseat a tubeless tyre. If I needed to reseat one it would imply total deflation, which would call for a tube to go in. That tube could stay in forever, without a problem. I just always carry a tube, just as I would with a clincher. The maintenance work can then take place at a time and place of my choosing when I have the requisite tools. Equally, I don't carry sealant with me.
A good combination (IME) has been Hutchinson "tubeless ready" and both Velocity and Pacenti tubeless rims. The bead seating is very positive.
Regarding one of Brucey's many points, seating initially can indeed be a pain. I've never managed it without at least a booster pump. Usually I bung a tube in, pump it up to 120-140psi and get the bead seated that way, and leave it for a couple of days in the warm. I'll then pop one bead off - the other stays locked - and remove the tube before (again, probably using a booster) reseating the popped bead. After that the beads stay locked, so putting in sealant and valve core is no problem.
In use, where I've removed a tyre at a later date, I've sometimes ('cos I'm a wuss( had to resort to mechanical means to get the bead to unseat.
Like ANY tyre and rim combination, some work better than others.
I've installed countlesss tubeless tyres for myself and friends, and I think I have perfected my routiine. I have a booster, which I always use now, even though I have many times installed with just a track pump. Difficulties have arisen only when I have missed out a step...and usually the step is wiping the beads with soapy water. I have never needed to mount the tyre with a tube overnight, although once I had some narrow hutchinsons on a really narrow non-tubeless rim, that were a bugger to fit in around the valve grommit. I don't know about wider tyres as I max out at 32mm, but my erstwhile riding partner also seems to manage to mount his 45mm tyres with no issues.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 13 January, 2021, 11:01:40 am
I agree with Brucey, tubeless not worth the risk for my riding. I got as far a mounting Schwalbe Pro Ones on my tubeless rims and thought this is not worth the effort so didn't bother even putting the gunk in just removed the valves and put in some proper tubes.
My last puncture was a 12mm sidewall gash 80k into a 200. A plastic fiver boot and new tube was a lot easier than it would have been if the tyre had been full of sealant surely?
Not really...the sealant would come out. There might be a little left, but it isn't a huge problem.
See my first post for benefits. There are reasons not to use tubeless. I don't use them for either of my may-october bikes. I could, but the likehood of punctures is slim, and the likelihood of punctures in unfavorable conditions is even slimmer. The downside of using them on these bikes would be the months of non-use. The tyre would deflate, and there is a likelihood of the sealant dripping out. As I said earlier I think tubeless is not ideal for bikes that are not used much, as regular inflation is part of the maintenance needs.
Post by: DuncanM on 13 January, 2021, 11:12:11 am
When you're talking trikes, I assume you're talking upright ones? I don't think there are any tubeless solutions in 20" rims for recumbents are there?
Post by: Brucey on 13 January, 2021, 12:03:38 pm
there is a whole discussion about tubeless tyre retention on the rim when tyres are built light. We've had this discussion before and as usual it contained plenty of stupid insults combined with a lack of actual facts or understanding of what was happening from the usual shouty morons (who are fortunately few in number). The bottom line is that bead hooks on rims don't (can't) reliably help to retain tubeless tyres on rims, because (depending on where the tyre actually seals) the air pressure in the tyre isn't definitely pushing the tyre bead into the rim hook, in contrast to when a tube is used, when it definitely is. Tubeless rim standards currently include only the smallest rim hooks and some tubeless rims have no hooks at all. Which may be fine if you are using tubeless tyres at low pressures, but it also means that you can't safely run tubed tyres at high pressures on such rims either; the abbreviated or non-existent hooks do not provide secure tyre retention.
For example DT-Swiss recommendations are on the first two pages here
https://www.dtswiss.com/pmt/00/00/00/00/00/00/00/10/00/00/00/85/8/MAN_WXWXXXXXX1610S_WEB_ZZ_001.pdf (https://www.dtswiss.com/pmt/00/00/00/00/00/00/00/10/00/00/00/85/8/MAN_WXWXXXXXX1610S_WEB_ZZ_001.pdf)
and for their hookless rims they don't recommend more than 73psi regardless of tyre type or width. Which I for one would find a problem.
Their recommendation is that higher pressures can be used with their hooked rims and that with tubeless the maximum pressure ought to be at least 20psi less than is possible with tubed tyres. I suspect they are being a bit ambitious in that they are saying considerably higher tubeless pressures are possible with hooked rims than hookless rims; both theory and practice says this is asking for trouble, and probably contributed to the incident pictured above.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 13 January, 2021, 12:37:48 pm
Is that photo of a tyre you installed, Brucey? Looks like it ;D ;D
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 01:09:49 pm
Top tip. Follow the manufacturers instructions ;) :thumbsup: :thumbsup:Some manufacturers are erring so far on the side of caution it is almost at the “only inflate by mouth” stage.
Is that photo of a tyre you installed, Brucey? Looks like it ;D ;D
Post by: Hot Flatus on 13 January, 2021, 01:26:27 pm
Seems about right.
Post by: sojournermike on 13 January, 2021, 01:32:01 pm
Top tip. Follow the manufacturers instructions ;) :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Is that photo of a tyre you installed, Brucey? Looks like it ;D ;D
The image comes from a Jan Hein article. Being admitted that the image wasn’t one of an actual tyre blowing off a rim and it’s probably stayed as an exemplar of what could happen.
I understand Brucey’s points and, when I first responded, had considered whether to get into discussion of hookless rims etc but left it.
I’m going to take a week out now because there is too much insult being thrown around here and elsewhere and life is too short. Brucey, you chose to take part in that so call I g it out is a bit pointless. However, I know I can insulted as much anyone like possibly want by arguing with Covid deniers on Twitter - we should treat each other excellently here.
Lecture over. See you in a week.
Post by: Davef on 13 January, 2021, 01:39:53 pm
77psi max for a 32mm tyre?My 32mm tyre has a manufactures max of 85psi.
Seems about right.
My wheel manufacture is suggesting at below 50psi.
I will double check in case I have made this up.
Post by: yoav on 13 January, 2021, 03:14:14 pm
I’ve decided to bite the bullet and dip a toe in the shark infested waters of tubeless tyres, and have ordered the kit.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 13 January, 2021, 03:25:12 pm
They don't work, they are impossible to install because they are simulataneously too tight but also too loose, and even if you do manage to install them (which you won't because they are impossible to install) the tyre will roll off and you will die, but not only that you will die covered in a fishy white splatter that your next of kin will have to explain away as a freak accident.
Post by: yoav on 13 January, 2021, 03:57:09 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 13 January, 2021, 04:00:16 pm
Do that and most of the issues dont arise.
What tyre/sealant combo have you gone for?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 13 January, 2021, 06:59:37 pm
Post by: yoav on 13 January, 2021, 08:16:43 pm
Post by: mzjo on 14 January, 2021, 12:16:26 am
(https://www.renehersecycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/concours_07.jpg?w=640)
there is a whole discussion about tubeless tyre retention on the rim when tyres are built light. We've had this discussion before and as usual it contained plenty of stupid insults combined with a lack of actual facts or understanding of what was happening from the usual shouty morons (who are fortunately few in number). The bottom line is that bead hooks on rims don't (can't) reliably help to retain tubeless tyres on rims, because (depending on where the tyre actually seals) the air pressure in the tyre isn't definitely pushing the tyre bead into the rim hook, in contrast to when a tube is used, when it definitely is. Tubeless rim standards currently include only the smallest rim hooks and some tubeless rims have no hooks at all. Which may be fine if you are using tubeless tyres at low pressures, but it also means that you can't safely run tubed tyres at high pressures on such rims either; the abbreviated or non-existent hooks do not provide secure tyre retention.
For example DT-Swiss recommendations are on the first two pages here
https://www.dtswiss.com/pmt/00/00/00/00/00/00/00/10/00/00/00/85/8/MAN_WXWXXXXXX1610S_WEB_ZZ_001.pdf (https://www.dtswiss.com/pmt/00/00/00/00/00/00/00/10/00/00/00/85/8/MAN_WXWXXXXXX1610S_WEB_ZZ_001.pdf)
and for their hookless rims they don't recommend more than 73psi regardless of tyre type or width. Which I for one would find a problem.
Their recommendation is that higher pressures can be used with their hooked rims and that with tubeless the maximum pressure ought to be at least 20psi less than is possible with tubed tyres. I suspect they are being a bit ambitious in that they are saying considerably higher tubeless pressures are possible with hooked rims than hookless rims; both theory and practice says this is asking for trouble, and probably contributed to the incident pictured above.
I have seen this photo already somewhere. Wasn't there a certain amount of debate about whether the rim and the tyre were actually meant to be tubeless in the first place???
Post by: LMT on 14 January, 2021, 12:05:50 pm
Post by: drossall on 14 January, 2021, 01:06:02 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 January, 2021, 01:17:46 pm
I just don't feel I have a reason to change. I don't really get punctures much, mostly because I use Marathons on various bikes. And I don't see a need to replace wheels or rims for the sake of it. I'm not sure when/if I'll ever buy a new bike now. If I did, would it having tubeless tyres dissuade me? Not sure, possibly not. What worries me, of course, is wanting a new tyre or rim and finding choice limited because everyone else has made the switch.
If you see no advantage for you then there is no reason to use them, at all. I don't use them on all my bikes.
I'll give you an example of why I might/might not use them: I have an astonishingly fun fixie, I built from a carbon race frame and an ENO eccentric hub. The hub is a minor ballache to readjust on the fly (for chain tension) because to do a good job you need a spanner to rotate it. I could dremel one out of a piece of plastic, but haven't got round to it yet, instead I carry a cone spanner. It's still a bit of a ballache and I'd rather not have to remove the rear wheel in the case of a puncture, get everything including chain tension set properly and then torque up the bolts, especially if it is dark and I'm in a hurry to get to work, because there is a safety issue. So I'm considering replacing the rear rim with tubeless when the current one wears out. For the time being its got a Schwalbe Durano Plus. No puncture, but it is a bit lumpy and leaden to ride. Some people (well, one person ::-) ) might start having kittens at the prospect of a mismatch of tyre, with one tubed, and the other tubeless..but it makes no difference. The requisite kit is the same...I just wouldn't bother taking the spanner anymore.
Makes sense on that bike. Doesn't make sense if you rarely puncture because you use bombproof tyres, unless you fancy using lighter more supple tyres and want to avoid the puncture hassles.
Post by: Brucey on 14 January, 2021, 02:43:19 pm
I have seen this photo already somewhere. Wasn't there a certain amount of debate about whether the rim and the tyre were actually meant to be tubeless in the first place???
well yes. At the time I think those tyres were (perhaps wrongly) being sold as tubeless compatible, and it seemingly wasn't understood that the hooked bead would do anything useful in the way of tyre retention; not consistently, anyway.
In fact I am still not sure that it is widely understood; there are still folk suggesting that if you overpressure a tyre to test it, and it doesn't blow off the rim, that it is 'safe', and DT's recommendations (which I linked to upthread) appear to give tubeless tyres considerable benefit (in terms of pressure rating) when fitted to hook bead rims.
Now if the tyre always seals between the tyre lip and the rim well, maybe this is OK, and maybe this is what usually happens when you mount a new tyre on a new rim etc. But there is no evidence to suggest that this always happens in a real-world situation: All it needs is for the leak rate between the tyre lip and the rim well to be in excess of the leak rate between the rim lip and the tyre higher up, and the tyre bead isn't being pushed into the rim hook any more and the 'benefit' of a hook bead will be about zero.
This comparatively simple observation probably explains some of the 'mysterious' tubeless blowouts, even when the tyre initially 'passed' an overpressure test. In the meantime I take advice from all quarters (including from many manufacturers) concerning tubeless tyre pressures with a king-sized pinch of salt. If you default to the tyre pressures specified for hookless rims (whether your rims are hookless or not) and given a whole list of other 'ifs' concerning the quality of tyre/rim fit etc, then you may be reasonably safe. Otherwise... do you feel lucky...?
BTW to clear up a misunderstanding; when I helped my chum with a problematic tubeless fitment a while back, I only did so because I could see he was struggling and he was grateful for any help, even if it was just pumping the bottle up again (and again). I still don't know quite how he found it within him to persist in trying to fit a tyre to a rim when the fit was clearly looser than it should have been (I'd probably have thrown the lot back in the face of the supplier, along with some terse angle-saxon phraseology), but I do know why; he is a professional bike mechanic and he had a customer due in before too much longer. To my surprise he prevailed and the customer wasn't disappointed. He was (quite rightly) completely pissed off with the quality of the parts and lost money on that job; it should take a few minutes, not over an hour even two-handed. I don't know exactly how commonplace such occurrences are but there were dark mutterings of the kind that usually precede refusal to work on similar equipment subsequently (eg "if they are daft enough to want to use that crap then they can ****in' well do it themselves"). We shall see.
BTW this may fall into the 'very obvious' category but I didn't mention it previously: When you fit a tube into a failed tubeless tyre there is another significant difference from a tubed puncture. With a tubed puncture when you find something poking through the tyre you can be reasonably sure that you have just found the culprit. With a tubeless puncture this isn't the case: If the sealant has been working as promised, there may be numerous pointy things stuck through the tread, any one of which can instantly puncture the tube you just struggled to fit. So you must inspect the tyre very carefully if you don't want to have an immediate repeat performance (assuming that you even have another tube, that is...). Obviously the inside of a tubeless tyre is covered in sticky crap and it is easy to miss something. In the workshop, if I want to be reasonably sure of a tyre, I need to clean all the sealant off the tyre, and then spend quite a long time inspecting it. [ I have known some of my MTBing chums throw tubed tyres away (eg having gone through a thorn bush) simply because they were not confident about finding every thorn (which can be entirely hidden within the tread thickness of course) no matter how long they spent.] Obviously any inspection carried out by the roadside is unlikely to be very good by comparison.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 January, 2021, 03:16:38 pm
I’m going to take a week out now because there is too much insult being thrown around here and elsewhere and life is too short. Brucey, you chose to take part in that so call I g it out is a bit pointless. However, I know I can insulted as much anyone like possibly want by arguing with Covid deniers on Twitter - we should treat each other excellently here.Perhaps some misread the title: To go lubeless or stay lubed.
Lecture over. See you in a week.
;D
Post by: andrew_s on 14 January, 2021, 07:56:31 pm
1. Tubeless would mean new wheels
2. I would lose the flexibility of being able to change tyres easily. That may mean putting the spikes on if there's been a sharp frost after wet weather, a knobblier tyre for a roughstuff trip etc. Tubed, swapping tyres takes about 15 minutes for both wheels.
3. I've a stash of tubed tyres that would get abandoned (I usually buy at special offer prices).
4. Changing the occasional tube isn't much of a problem anyway, registering about 1 or 2 on the 0 to 10 annoyance scale. People (as above) always quote changing a tube in the wet and cold, but that's like car commuters giving getting wet as a reason not to use a bike, and is pretty rare.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 January, 2021, 08:16:38 pm
Your other reasons are all perfectly valid, and were I in your position I would be making the same decisions. I'm not sure why people are now justifying their choice of remaining with tubed tyres. They are a tried and tested technology with advantages and disadvantages. The cost/benefit balance depends on your specific usage, as well as your attitude towards them. It's all cool.
What isn't cool is shrill hyperbolic panic-mongering disinformation from people who have no experience of using tubeless tyres. People can do what they want, but they need to know whether opinions are based on experience or not.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 14 January, 2021, 08:33:12 pm
Post by: mzjo on 14 January, 2021, 08:55:20 pm
With tubeless, it's never. :thumbsup:
Your other reasons are all perfectly valid, and were I in your position I would be making the same decisions. I'm not sure why people are now justifying their choice of remaining with tubed tyres. They are a tried and tested technology with advantages and disadvantages. The cost/benefit balance depends on your specific usage, as well as your attitude towards them. It's all cool.
What isn't cool is shrill hyperbolic panic-mongering disinformation from people who have no experience of using tubeless tyres. People can do what they want, but they need to know whether opinions are based on experience or not.
I for one am very grateful for the tubeless users explaining the advantages (and occasional inconveniences). I t does at least inform me enough to know that it is not an appropriate technology for my cycling activity
Post by: TimC on 14 January, 2021, 10:30:42 pm
It's quite possible that there's no way I could have made any worthwhile temporary repair to that tyre, even if I'd had a full Audax-style workshop with me, so I can't really lay that one down to any inadequacy of tubeless. However, it does mean I now carry two tubes and a decent boot with me on every ride, whether on a tubed or tubeless bike.
Post by: zigzag on 14 January, 2021, 11:59:00 pm
Post by: halhorner on 15 January, 2021, 07:23:16 am
Post by: Hot Flatus on 15 January, 2021, 07:40:18 am
OP asks whether it is worth using changing to tubeless
Number of people who have used tubeless and report positive experiences= 12
Number of people who have used tubeless and regret it=0
Number of people who have never used tubeless but repeatedly warn against it, in the direst terms=1
Post by: Davef on 15 January, 2021, 11:45:17 am
I have had two occasions where I have had to put a tube in about 18000km of riding, (including a fair bit on unsuitable surfaces tile grabbing). One of these was due to my own foolishness. I carry a small superglue and used this to mend a slice that was too large too seal. This was meant as a temporary repair to get me home. Several weeks later the temporary repair failed and I had a very messy tube insertion (I had just topped up the gizz). It was also more difficult as I discovered I only had one tyre lever! then I had a nervous “I no longer have a spare tube” ride.
I have had none of the other difficulties and with my roval/gp5000 combo, I have had no difficulty getting tyres on by hand or off with normal levers and have just used a normal track pump to inflate.
Post by: Brucey on 15 January, 2021, 06:19:09 pm
All the negative points about tubeless are completely correct but are outweighed by the positives.
that may be the case for many users, ( although I hardly need mention that one -or even a hundred- swallows do not a summer make). However some folk argue their case by completely ignoring or denying any such shortcomings, and by using a mixture of half-truths and downright lies.
When they are called on it they immediately resort to a mixture of more lies and various inexcusable (not to mention ridiculous) forms of abuse.
I don't think they realise that this demeans them, devalues anything they have to say on any subject, demeans us all and makes what should be a useful forum for intelligent discussion of ideas and experiences into little more than (yet another) rather unpleasant little corner of the internet, apparently populated by a mixture of inexcusably rude idiots, folk who don't care, and moderators that don't, er, moderate.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 15 January, 2021, 06:28:36 pm
Quick thread recap:
OP asks whether it is worth using changing to tubeless
Number of people who have used tubeless and report positive experiences=1213 Edited with updated figures
Number of people who have used tubeless and regret it=0
Number of people who have never used tubeless but repeatedly warn against it, in the direst terms=1
Post by: Brucey on 15 January, 2021, 06:59:02 pm
Post by: Davef on 15 January, 2021, 07:00:14 pm
In that same 18000 km I had bent derailleur hanger and a di2 failure, both of which I could have avoided by always riding fixed, however on balance having gears would be my choice and and I would recommend to most.All the negative points about tubeless are completely correct but are outweighed by the positives.
that may be the case for many users, ( although I hardly need mention that one -or even a hundred- swallows do not a summer make). However some folk argue their case by completely ignoring or denying any such shortcomings, and by using a mixture of half-truths and downright lies.
When they are called on it they immediately resort to a mixture of more lies and various inexcusable (not to mention ridiculous) forms of abuse.
I don't think they realise that this demeans them, devalues anything they have to say on any subject, demeans us all and makes what should be a useful forum for intelligent discussion of ideas and experiences into little more than (yet another) rather unpleasant little corner of the internet, apparently populated by a mixture of inexcusably rude idiots, folk who don't care, and moderators that don't, er, moderate.
I will not abandon tubes completely, I will keep them on my vintage bikes for nostalgic reasons.
Post by: citoyen on 15 January, 2021, 07:09:29 pm
Anyway, I’m currently running with tubes on my audax bike because I had a nightmare trying to set it up tubeless and eventually just gave up.
The problem was that the valve switch on my airstore pump broke and it has proved impossible to get the tyre fully seated without it (this was a refitting - it was easy enough first time round with the airstore pump).
I don’t know if it’s down to the tyre/rim combination* or ineptitude on my part, but CBA so just sticking with tubes for now.
Still a confirmed fan of tubeless though, and intend to get the bike back into a tubeless state at some point.
*Stans Grail + Maxxis Padrone
Post by: IanDG on 15 January, 2021, 07:31:50 pm
Quick thread recap:
OP asks whether it is worth using changing to tubeless
Number of people who have used tubeless and report positive experiences= 12
Number of people who have used tubeless and regret it=0
Number of people who have never used tubeless but repeatedly warn against it, in the direst terms=1
OK I went tubeless but after 3 punctures in 4 months that ripped big holes in the sidewalls that needed a boot and tube to get home I went back to tubes ;)
Post by: Brucey on 15 January, 2021, 07:42:55 pm
In that same 18000 km I had bent derailleur hanger and a di2 failure, both of which I could have avoided by always riding fixed, however on balance having gears would be my choice and and I would recommend to most.
I will not abandon tubes completely, I will keep them on my vintage bikes for nostalgic reasons.
fair enough. I guess in a nutshell my contentions are twofold;
1) that there are shortcomings (with any system) which folk ought to at least be aware of before they take the plunge and
2) that whilst they are certainly not commonplace, there are more 'unexplained incidents' than I'd like to see.
The photo I posted upthread I think shows what happens if you use too much pressure in a tubeless tyre, in an attempt to blow it off the rim. However this experiment was only carried out because a professional cycling journalist had just had this happen for real, on the road, on a new bike under test, as supplied by the manufacturer, at tyre pressures where it shouldn't.
So if this happens (say) to one in a hundred or even one in a thousand users, you might have ninety-nine or even nine hundred and ninety-nine folk reporting (or pointlessly, endlessly, shouting...) positive experiences but there may be a real problem for the remaining unlucky ones. Now if the consequences are slight, it isn't a very great concern. But if the consequences are not slight, then it is (or ruddy well should be) of more concern.
The fit of bicycle tyres on rims has long been inconsistent. For tubeless to work well, it needs to be better than it often has been to date, and there is evidence to suggest that it isn't yet consistent enough. In addition to this there is widespread misunderstanding about what really keeps tyres on rims, even amongst folk who should know better. I believe it is possible (for example) for the benefit of hooked rim beads to be lost entirely in some tubeless setups, yet even manufacturer's data suggests otherwise; they may be correct (on the basis of their testing) but then again they may just have not yet carried out the right kind of tests.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 15 January, 2021, 07:56:38 pm
Quick thread recap:
OP asks whether it is worth using changing to tubeless
Number of people who have used tubeless and report positive experiences= 12
Number of people who have used tubeless and regret it=0
Number of people who have never used tubeless but repeatedly warn against it, in the direst terms=1
OK I went tubeless but after 3 punctures in 4 months that ripped big holes in the sidewalls that needed a boot and tube to get home I went back to tubes ;)
Now look what you've done ::-)
;D ;D ;D ;D
Post by: IanDG on 15 January, 2021, 08:13:11 pm
Quick thread recap:
OP asks whether it is worth using changing to tubeless
Number of people who have used tubeless and report positive experiences= 12
Number of people who have used tubeless and regret it=0
Number of people who have never used tubeless but repeatedly warn against it, in the direst terms=1
OK I went tubeless but after 3 punctures in 4 months that ripped big holes in the sidewalls that needed a boot and tube to get home I went back to tubes ;)
Now look what you've done ::-)
;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D
May have been Lewisian Gneiss - haven't tried tubeless since moving south :D
Post by: Hot Flatus on 15 January, 2021, 08:19:31 pm
Post by: IanDG on 15 January, 2021, 08:20:26 pm
Don't do it. You'll die at the side of the road in something resembling a bukkake scene in s hardcore porn movie
;D ;D ;D
Post by: mzjo on 16 January, 2021, 10:40:13 am
Don't do it. You'll die at the side of the road in something resembling a bukkake scene in s hardcore porn movie
;D ;D ;D
Latex and outdoors!! ;D HF I hope you have got the copyright sorted on that one, the royalties will pay for the Di2 on your next bike!
On a more serious note I have realised that I am actually wasting a certain amount of time reading this since the bikes most likely to benefit from a tubeless conversion in my garage are 650b with relatively narrow rims and rim brakes. Finding any reasonably priced rims in Europe is not easy (I have never seen Kinlin rims over here for example) - even though when I next need to buy tyres, which won't be for a while, they will probably be tubeless ready.
The bike in the garage that most fits the tubeless logic (I don't usually carry tools on it since it usually does short rides) is the folder. Now 406 rim brake rims, 36h tubeless with a price cap of 150€ for the conversion (need 47-406 tyres as well but I could always wear out the old ones first) would definitely interest me.
Post by: Davef on 16 January, 2021, 10:48:30 am
You would have to balance that with the danger of getting more frequent punctures with tubed tyres and the rapid deflation of a pinch puncture. I would need to see proper statistics on serious injury caused by punctures both tubed and tubeless before deciding on safety grounds, and then probably decide on jogging instead.
In that same 18000 km I had bent derailleur hanger and a di2 failure, both of which I could have avoided by always riding fixed, however on balance having gears would be my choice and and I would recommend to most.
I will not abandon tubes completely, I will keep them on my vintage bikes for nostalgic reasons.
fair enough. I guess in a nutshell my contentions are twofold;
1) that there are shortcomings (with any system) which folk ought to at least be aware of before they take the plunge and
2) that whilst they are certainly not commonplace, there are more 'unexplained incidents' than I'd like to see.
The photo I posted upthread I think shows what happens if you use too much pressure in a tubeless tyre, in an attempt to blow it off the rim. However this experiment was only carried out because a professional cycling journalist had just had this happen for real, on the road, on a new bike under test, as supplied by the manufacturer, at tyre pressures where it shouldn't.
So if this happens (say) to one in a hundred or even one in a thousand users, you might have ninety-nine or even nine hundred and ninety-nine folk reporting (or pointlessly, endlessly, shouting...) positive experiences but there may be a real problem for the remaining unlucky ones. Now if the consequences are slight, it isn't a very great concern. But if the consequences are not slight, then it is (or ruddy well should be) of more concern.
The fit of bicycle tyres on rims has long been inconsistent. For tubeless to work well, it needs to be better than it often has been to date, and there is evidence to suggest that it isn't yet consistent enough. In addition to this there is widespread misunderstanding about what really keeps tyres on rims, even amongst folk who should know better. I believe it is possible (for example) for the benefit of hooked rim beads to be lost entirely in some tubeless setups, yet even manufacturer's data suggests otherwise; they may be correct (on the basis of their testing) but then again they may just have not yet carried out the right kind of tests.
Post by: fd3 on 16 January, 2021, 11:07:05 am
As you have the wheel setup you could buy the g-ones and fit tubeless (this will cost you some valves and liquid) whose case scenario you won’t like it and get a bit messy. If it doesn’t appeal, you can stick in tubes and revert with little issue.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 16 January, 2021, 01:34:20 pm
You would have to balance that with the danger of getting more frequent punctures with tubed tyres and the rapid deflation of a pinch puncture. I would need to see proper statistics on serious injury caused by punctures both tubed and tubeless before deciding on safety grounds, and then probably decide on jogging instead.
In that same 18000 km I had bent derailleur hanger and a di2 failure, both of which I could have avoided by always riding fixed, however on balance having gears would be my choice and and I would recommend to most.
I will not abandon tubes completely, I will keep them on my vintage bikes for nostalgic reasons.
Tedious windbag guff
.
The most serious crash I ever had (10 years ago) was due to a front tyre blowout. Got concussion. Tubed tyre.
3 years ago I got a slow puncture in Snowdonia, changed the tube, rode home. The next day I pumped up the tyre a bit with my track pump. Got down the road, tube exploded. Just managed to stop before tyre rolled off. Tubed tyre.
Glad it didn't happen on the 50mph descent to Dinas Mawddy the day before.
Still waiting for my tubeless tyres to roll off ;)
Post by: Brucey on 16 January, 2021, 04:33:55 pm
You would have to balance that with the danger of getting more frequent punctures with tubed tyres and the rapid deflation of a pinch puncture. I would need to see proper statistics on serious injury caused by punctures both tubed and tubeless before deciding on safety grounds, and then probably decide on jogging instead.
needless to say the intention is to arm oneself with enough knowledge that you are less likely to become a statistic, regardless of what kind of tyres you use, by understanding what makes a difference and how to identify it ahead of time. Burying your head in the sand and ignoring possible problems has one effect on this, trying to dig in and work out what really makes a difference has another. For example the information in the diagram I posted upthread ought really to be more widely known and understood; you can certainly come unstuck (literally) this way.
I have had tyres come off rims myself and I've seen it happen to others; there has usually been a reason it has happened; (not always one which would give you much comfort when using random pairings of rims and tyres....) . I would hope that I've learned enough that I'd make the chances of the same thing happening again a lot less.
Post by: Davef on 17 January, 2021, 05:01:14 pm
Post by: Brucey on 17 January, 2021, 05:20:03 pm
My view is that as long as there are shouty abusive f-wits on this forum, you will likely only hear one side of most discussions, because believe it or not most people prefer not to be abused and insulted for no good reason. You know how there are pubs you prefer not to go in, because there are idiots inside who just want a fight? A bit like that.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 17 January, 2021, 05:38:15 pm
shouty abusive f-wits
a mixture of half-truths and downright lies.
When they are called on it they immediately resort to a mixture of more lies and various inexcusable (not to mention ridiculous) forms of abuse.
I don't think they realise that this demeans them, devalues anything they have to say on any subject, demeans us all and makes what should be a useful forum for intelligent discussion of ideas and experiences into little more than (yet another) rather unpleasant little corner of the internet, apparently populated by a mixture of inexcusably rude idiots, folk who don't care, and moderators that don't, er, moderate.
the usual shouty morons
Ladies and gentlemen, this is what we scientists call "a lie".
Sorry, what was it you were saying about shouty abusive f-wits? ;D ;D ;D ;D
You need to go and have a chat with yourself, son.
Post by: Davef on 17 January, 2021, 06:15:49 pm
you and some others may perceive my posts as 'negative' but there is more than one viewpoint regarding the benefits (which, if you bother looking, I have described reasonably accurately just before being inexcusably insulted and abused). If my comments result in just one person who avoids a nasty accident or a problem on the road I would say that is a very good thing. 'Putting people off cycling?.. that is some weak ale indeed, isn't it? Forearmed is forewarned; it surely has to be better than folk believing a load of tripe about putting a tube in being 'exactly the same' with tubeless and so forth; anyone who has done it knows just how misleading that really is.Have you uncovered some stats for your tubeless is more dangerous theory?. I have had more rapid deflation’s with tubed tyres (probably dozens over the years), luckily none have resulted in injury. I have not had a single rapid deflation with tubeless. My two incidents that required inner tubes being fitted would I am sure have been instant deflation events with tubed. There were deep cuts right through that would have sliced the inner tube too. With tubeless the deflation was rapid but not instant. I would say it took probably 30 seconds or more to eject a large amount of gack all over my bike. There was no way it was going to seal but it did appear to slow things down. However I would be very reluctant to say tubeless is safer (or more dangerous for that matter) based on such a small sample size. I would want proper statistical evidence before I would proclaim either way.
My view is that as long as there are shouty abusive f-wits on this forum, you will likely only hear one side of most discussions, because believe it or not most people prefer not to be abused and insulted for no good reason. You know how there are pubs you prefer not to go in, because there are idiots inside who just want a fight? A bit like that.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 January, 2021, 06:23:46 pm
Quote
I suppose the issue is that [Brucey's] posts might put people off trying tubeless and the vast majority of people once they have tried, prefer them. Not everyone, but the vast majority.Actually, the person who's convinced me that tubeless isn't for me is... Flatus! Because his experience matches that of others I know who've tried tubeless: that you have to use it regularly (at least once a fortnight was the minimum frequency Flatus gave) to keep the sealant liquid and circulating. At the moment, due to lockdown, weather and, I'm afraid, laziness, that is barely happening. Once the weather gets warmer, hopefully the pandemic situation eases, and given the right physical and mental tuits, I'll be reappraising this decision, when the decisive factors will probably technical ones (compressor, sealant, etc).
Post by: Hot Flatus on 17 January, 2021, 06:35:08 pm
The person who convinced me to give them a go was Bikey Mikey in 2014 IIRC, you know him? He won the audax points championship 6 years in a row, including one year with a record breaking 33,000 of audax miles. He wasn't out to convince me, just stated his experiences. Still, what would he know, eh.
Post by: Davef on 17 January, 2021, 06:41:39 pm
I had not heard that one before. My “spare” bike is tubeless now too and I only ride that once every few weeks. Maybe it depends on the brand of gizz.QuoteI suppose the issue is that [Brucey's] posts might put people off trying tubeless and the vast majority of people once they have tried, prefer them. Not everyone, but the vast majority.Actually, the person who's convinced me that tubeless isn't for me is... Flatus! Because his experience matches that of others I know who've tried tubeless: that you have to use it regularly (at least once a fortnight was the minimum frequency Flatus gave) to keep the sealant liquid and circulating. At the moment, due to lockdown, weather and, I'm afraid, laziness, that is barely happening. Once the weather gets warmer, hopefully the pandemic situation eases, and given the right physical and mental tuits, I'll be reappraising this decision, when the decisive factors will probably technical ones (compressor, sealant, etc).
Edit: I would also add I have never used a compressor. I have always just used a track pump (joe blow) and pumped quite frantically. I do have an air bottle thing I used to use on my disk wheel on my TT bike but I have never needed to use it for tubeless but it would be a cheaper option than a compressor. The reason I use it on the disk wheel is that you need to hold the inflator on with one hand leaving only one hand to pump and I had a shoulder injury for a year or so. Then last summer I was shown the technique of using a wood working clamp and so now I have two hands free for the pump. I might just be fortunate in my rim/tyre selection.
Edit: I should add my disk wheel is tubed and unfortunately not tubeless compatible and it is too damned expensive to replace.
Post by: Brucey on 17 January, 2021, 08:14:04 pm
Have you uncovered some stats for your tubeless is more dangerous theory?.... I would want proper statistical evidence before I would proclaim either way.
hang on which theory is that? I have pointed out that there have been a variety of known issues with tubeless and more 'unexplained incidents' than I'd like to see. 'Unexplained incidents' are exactly that. Unexplained.
Until someone digs in and does some tests which represent the true range of possible conditions of use, I think such incidents will remain unexplained. Some at least will be down to errors in installation. But when (for example) folk who ought to know how to ride a bike and pump a tyre up have a problem with the manufacturer's test bike (for example) and there is no adequate explanation, this does concern me. Probably there is an explanation, but we just don't know what it is yet, and until we do some folk will have problems.
It is a self-selecting set of responses of course but IIRC there are 130-odd responses to the Jan Heine blog posting and there are several reports of similar unexplained problems. Or problems that were mysteriously fixed by using slightly thinner rim tape, (which hardly inspires confidence in the way the tyre is retained, if this makes a difference).
I do have a theory which relates to the retention of tyres (esp on hook beaded rims) varying with the exact location of the seal, because that affects how the bead is pushed into the rim hook. But to assume that this automatically means 'I think tubeless is more dangerous' is putting words into my mouth. As I have mentioned upthread tubeless tyres are normally more likely to stay on the rim in the event of sudden deflation, and this (in that event) is better.
Better understanding of what might cause the other thing to happen would be of use to everyone and sensible discussion is a route towards it. It doesn't always need to be complicated, comparatively simple observations are often enough to improve your safety; for example I would certainly have rejected the badly fitting tyre that my chum prevailed with, because being slack enough not to hold its seat properly would also decrease the chances of the tyre staying on the rim in service.
cheers
Post by: Hot Flatus on 17 January, 2021, 08:25:50 pm
I had not heard that one before. My “spare” bike is tubeless now too and I only ride that once every few weeks. Maybe it depends on the brand of gizz.QuoteI suppose the issue is that [Brucey's] posts might put people off trying tubeless and the vast majority of people once they have tried, prefer them. Not everyone, but the vast majority.Actually, the person who's convinced me that tubeless isn't for me is... Flatus! Because his experience matches that of others I know who've tried tubeless: that you have to use it regularly (at least once a fortnight was the minimum frequency Flatus gave) to keep the sealant liquid and circulating. At the moment, due to lockdown, weather and, I'm afraid, laziness, that is barely happening. Once the weather gets warmer, hopefully the pandemic situation eases, and given the right physical and mental tuits, I'll be reappraising this decision, when the decisive factors will probably technical ones (compressor, sealant, etc).
I wasn't thinking so much in terms of your jizz drying up, but tyre deflation. If you stick the bike in a shed for a month and forget about it, theres a chance you may return to find jizz dribbling out. Brands do vary I've found. Stans is a sorts of baseline OK, Orangeseal seems to seal larger holes and takes a bit longer to dry out. I got some motorbike stuff from Planet X (Oke) and its been surprisingly good. The worst is Finish Line. You might as well put water in your tyres.
Quote
Edit: I would also add I have never used a compressor. I have always just used a track pump (joe blow) and pumped quite frantically.
I can generally get them on with a track pump, but I bought an Airshot after struggling on one occasion, and I tend to use it now because it makes life simple.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 January, 2021, 09:23:24 pm
You are welcome :thumbsup: Glad you were able to filter out the noise on this thread ;)I do know Bikey Mikey (of course!). Is he still using the 1x? (best find another thread for that, we don't want to mix up multiple Controversial New Technologies in one thread!)
The person who convinced me to give them a go was Bikey Mikey in 2014 IIRC, you know him? He won the audax points championship 6 years in a row, including one year with a record breaking 33,000 of audax miles. He wasn't out to convince me, just stated his experiences. Still, what would he know, eh.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 17 January, 2021, 09:34:22 pm
1x....now that is one thing I have no need for outside of offroad.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 January, 2021, 11:11:12 pm
I keep trying to decide on Tubeless or not, or rather specifically if I should choose tubeless for a certain ride from the sea side to another seaside in July. Part of me is very much liking the idea of not having to keep swapping and/or repairing tubes. Part of me is "oh fuck, how messy is this going to be if I do need to tube the tyre"
My current thought is to use the tubeless version of the GP5k, but with tubes. As the TL version has stronger side walls.
Has anyone used GP5K TL with H+Son Archetype rims?
J
Post by: hatler on 18 January, 2021, 12:32:50 am
I have a stack of spare rims, and enough tyres in stock to last me out.
I can't be bothered with the expense of replacing a whole bunch of kit, nor the faff involved in learning new tricks. Plus, I'm crap at motivating myself to schedule regular tasks. Call me a pervert but I'd far rather be forced into fixing a puncture in the cold and wet by the side of the road than schedule a goo replacement session.
My one meeting with tubeless was a friend's son's MTB. I couldn't get the tyre off the rim. It appeared to have been welded on. This is the only time I have ever been defeated in this task.
At peak-commuting mileage (sadly almost certainly a thing of the past now) I would average four punctures a year. I'm more than happy taking those on the chin.
Post by: Andy W on 18 January, 2021, 05:47:53 am
Post by: Davef on 18 January, 2021, 06:40:24 am
I would try it for a couple thousand k in training to see if they work for you and your rims. I have had one messy tube insertion and one that was not messy at all. The messy one was the first ride after an overgenerous fluid top up. I have added a to my spares kit a j cloth (well more accurately half a j cloth because every gram counts!). The mess was on my hands and the rims. I was also next time take more care emptying it out. For your longer ride I would recommend taking a spare tyre which you might do anyway if tubed.
I keep trying to decide on Tubeless or not, or rather specifically if I should choose tubeless for a certain ride from the sea side to another seaside in July. Part of me is very much liking the idea of not having to keep swapping and/or repairing tubes. Part of me is "oh fuck, how messy is this going to be if I do need to tube the tyre"
My current thought is to use the tubeless version of the GP5k, but with tubes. As the TL version has stronger side walls.
Has anyone used GP5K TL with H+Son Archetype rims?
J
Post by: Hot Flatus on 18 January, 2021, 07:17:17 am
How often do tubeless tyres need their pressure checking?
When you first install them, generally, you need to give them a pump everyday for the first few days. The one thing I should say is it is best to go out and ride them pretty soon after installing them. Then air retention improves rapidly. In general , if being used regularly I'll top it with air up every few days. If not then every two to three weeks.
Part of me is "oh fuck, how messy is this going to be if I do need to tube the tyre"
If you need to put a tube in, it will be because a puncture wont seal. This might be because you've neglected to top the sealant up, or the hole is too big. If all the air has come out of your tyre then it is likely that most of the sealant will have too, because you will have rolled the tyre round so that the puncture is at the bottom where the sealant resides. Once you pop the bead off the rim, you can let any residual sealant drip out. The air pressure has gone...it isn't going to explode all over you despite what our non-tubeless tyre using friend will try and have you believe.
As with anything in life, if there are many longtime users decribing their experiences as positive, and one non-user claiming to have encountered difficulties at every turn, then that one user is probably just describing their incompetence.
Here is an typical example:
I helped someone fit a tubeless tyre to a tubeless rim, and basically it didn't ****in' work. The tyre was too loose on the rim, so wouldn't seat unless a booster bottle was used, and then wouldn't stay seated for long enough to get the valve core in.
Those of us that know what we are doing would see the problem with this straight away. ;D ;D
Post by: Frank9755 on 18 January, 2021, 08:27:40 am
In September I did a hard, hilly 400km DIY. At 11pm I still had 80km to go. I was going up a steep hill, in the dark as it was starting to get cold. I felt a puncture in my rear wheel. I really did not want to stop. Two seconds later, it resealed.
I've used tubeless since 2015. I've needed to stop and put a tube in just twice in 30-40,000 km. Both would have been avoidable with a bit of thought and care.
I had to use a tube for the third time yesterday!
Again it was my fault and could / should have been avoided. I'd not checked the sealant in my tyre - which I should have done as I hadn't refilled since I set these wheels up at the start of September - and the sealant had dried up.
Post by: Frank9755 on 18 January, 2021, 08:32:55 am
I keep trying to decide on Tubeless or not, or rather specifically if I should choose tubeless for a certain ride from the sea side to another seaside in July. Part of me is very much liking the idea of not having to keep swapping and/or repairing tubes. Part of me is "oh fuck, how messy is this going to be if I do need to tube the tyre"
My current thought is to use the tubeless version of the GP5k, but with tubes. As the TL version has stronger side walls.
Has anyone used GP5K TL with H+Son Archetype rims?
J
Don't do it! Tubeless tyres are harder to get on and off than non-tubeless. Conti are harder to get off than most ther brands.
But don't take my word for it. Get one and try it yourself. You can always sell it on as 'new, fitted to a rim but not ridden' and it will only cost you a small margin for the learning.
Post by: Frank9755 on 18 January, 2021, 08:40:53 am
You are welcome :thumbsup: Glad you were able to filter out the noise on this thread ;)
The person who convinced me to give them a go was Bikey Mikey in 2014 IIRC, you know him? He won the audax points championship 6 years in a row, including one year with a record breaking 33,000 of audax miles. He wasn't out to convince me, just stated his experiences. Still, what would he know, eh.
I was convinced to try Tubeless by Teethgrinder, when he was gearing up for his 'Year'. He described them and his experience with them, and it sounded like a good idea. I think he did a few miles on them too!
Post by: jiberjaber on 18 January, 2021, 01:09:17 pm
I keep trying to decide on Tubeless or not, or rather specifically if I should choose tubeless for a certain ride from the sea side to another seaside in July. Part of me is very much liking the idea of not having to keep swapping and/or repairing tubes. Part of me is "oh fuck, how messy is this going to be if I do need to tube the tyre"
My current thought is to use the tubeless version of the GP5k, but with tubes. As the TL version has stronger side walls.
Has anyone used GP5K TL with H+Son Archetype rims?
J
Don't do it! Tubeless tyres are harder to get on and off than non-tubeless. Conti are harder to get off than most ther brands.
But don't take my word for it. Get one and try it yourself. You can always sell it on as 'new, fitted to a rim but not ridden' and it will only cost you a small margin for the learning.
Whilst I have the GP5k I've not had them on my tubeless hson arch+ wheels - I have however had lots of Schwalbe on the hson+, G-one and pro-one. The 5k take a bit to fit but seal better
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 18 January, 2021, 02:17:20 pm
Archetypes are not tubeless compatible. Unless I'm misremembering what I was told by a wheelbuilder.
I keep trying to decide on Tubeless or not, or rather specifically if I should choose tubeless for a certain ride from the sea side to another seaside in July. Part of me is very much liking the idea of not having to keep swapping and/or repairing tubes. Part of me is "oh fuck, how messy is this going to be if I do need to tube the tyre"
My current thought is to use the tubeless version of the GP5k, but with tubes. As the TL version has stronger side walls.
Has anyone used GP5K TL with H+Son Archetype rims?
J
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 18 January, 2021, 03:55:30 pm
Post by: citoyen on 18 January, 2021, 04:41:51 pm
Part of me is "oh fuck, how messy is this going to be if I do need to tube the tyre"
Very messy. BTDTGTTS. (Hit a stone that caused a gash in the sidewall that wouldn’t seal. Even after tipping out as much of the residual sealant as possible, the inside of the tyre was very sticky. You will get sealant on your hands - but that’s what latex gloves are for - and probably on the wheel rim too.)
Also bear in mind that if you have trouble getting normal clinchers off the rim, tubeless are significantly harder. (Or should be, if they’re a good fit.)
Otoh, the trade off is that you should be carrying out roadside repairs a lot less often. I had two punctures within the first 12km of my ride today, small pinprick punctures of exactly the kind that tubeless sealant is designed to deal with.
Post by: citoyen on 18 January, 2021, 04:45:00 pm
When you first install them, generally, you need to give them a pump everyday for the first few days. The one thing I should say is it is best to go out and ride them pretty soon after installing them.
I concur with this. I usually try to get out and do a ride of decent length as soon as I can after fitting. It seems to make a difference.
Post by: De Sisti on 21 January, 2021, 03:04:42 pm
(https://forum.cyclinguk.org/download/file.php?id=79479&mode=view)
Post by: Lightning Phil on 21 January, 2021, 04:06:34 pm
Shamelessly stolen from Cycling UK:
(https://forum.cyclinguk.org/download/file.php?id=79479&mode=view)
I suppose the last thing you’d want is a puncture under enemy fire. Plus I see they had an early frame bag...
Post by: hatler on 21 January, 2021, 05:40:12 pm
Post by: Lightning Phil on 21 January, 2021, 08:21:03 pm
(https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/1920s-Pony-Byke-05.jpg)
Post by: mzjo on 22 January, 2021, 11:18:21 pm
Plus of course for the Calvary
(https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/1920s-Pony-Byke-05.jpg)
Too COOOOOOL 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) A delta recumbent trike on fixed with tubeless tyres (forgot the fwd bit)!!
Post by: morbihan on 23 January, 2021, 12:34:42 pm
Shamelessly stolen from Cycling UK:
(https://forum.cyclinguk.org/download/file.php?id=79479&mode=view)
excellent way to make sure you spring into action.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 January, 2021, 12:43:36 pm
Post by: morbihan on 23 January, 2021, 12:59:59 pm
Primarily tubeless on the wider stuff. Thats a combination of 650b and 700cc wheel sets that are generally 44 and 48mm tires.
I also have a set of tubeless 30mm on a set of carbon rims.
The race bikes and round town hacks are all tubed.
The tubeless set ups are so much more comfortable. But then a good deal of that is the tire width and the fact that they are very supple casings and at lower pressure. TBH I pull a bit of a face (on the inside) when I ride the tubeless carbon wheels that have less supple casings after a few days on the really wide tires.
I top up the sealant from time to time and very rarely have any issues. Some sets have ridden 1000's of km with nothing more than a top up and the odd pump.... but heres the thing. Deep down inside there is a little voice nagging away
"What if something goes wrong! You won't be able to fix it"
And confession time.... Ive never had to put a tube in any of the tubeless set ups and all of the tubeless wheel sets were set up by my LBS.
I have fixed a couple of glass cuts with plugs from the outside. (we live in the heineken bottle throwing capital of the World and the road edges are littered with glass)
I'd had the odd mysterious random deflation that sealant and/or pumping has resolved. Recently on the carbon rims that are tubeless the valve started acting up and I was stumped. The LBS sorted it. If I was on an ultra race or out in the boonies I'd have been in a fix. That particular wheel/tire combination are a nightmare to unseat.
In conclusion. For the type of riding we do, the comfort of tubeless is too good to ignore but I will continue to live in fear of a tubeless failure that I can't sort somewhere remote.
Post by: Dominic on 23 January, 2021, 01:15:03 pm
Been out again probably 3rd time since above and another puncture again towards the side wall and again sealed at a low pressure and managed to get home. I am in the process of fixing tyre again but would not give up on them as ultimately I think they are a good idea and I can always put a tube in with tubeless, but when you run out of tubes on a ride with tubed, as I have, you are a bit stuffed.
Just a thought really and I am wondering if it is a tyre issue rather than anything else.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 23 January, 2021, 02:52:19 pm
*sound like I'm saying you are fat and can't ride ;D I'm 11st give or take 7lbs, and I ride like a God.** #bemoreflatus
**I'm very very careful and observant
Post by: Hot Flatus on 23 January, 2021, 02:53:45 pm
I will continue to live in fear of a tubeless failure that I can't sort somewhere remote.
That failure mode will be same regardless of tyre type. Just dont screw the valve on ridiculously tight, and dont keep retightening it...or carry mini pliers
Post by: Dominic on 23 January, 2021, 03:28:30 pm
*sound like I'm saying you are fat and can't ride ;D #bemoreflatus
**I'm very very careful and observant
That’s okay I do feel particularly fat at the moment and the way I went through those potholes, after 40 years riding myself, I did wonder if I had any cycling skills at all:)
Post by: De Sisti on 23 January, 2021, 03:30:30 pm
I am in the process of fixing tyre again but would not give up on them as ultimately I think they are a good idea and I can always put a tube in with tubeless, but when you run out of tubes on a ride with tubed, as I have, you are a bit stuffed.You could try using a puncture repair kit (https://www.wiggle.co.uk/puncture-repair)?
Post by: Dominic on 23 January, 2021, 04:14:33 pm
Post by: yoav on 24 January, 2021, 11:06:37 am
Post by: Hot Flatus on 24 January, 2021, 11:35:13 am
Post by: citoyen on 24 January, 2021, 11:36:51 am
The tyres made a very satisfying ping with the Airshot as the tyres seated on the rims.
Good to know. I'm thinking about getting one of these or similar to replace my busted Truflo Airstore pump.
Quote
I didn't find one leak, I found lots of leaks. Both tyres had tiny trails of bubbles coming from the sidewalls of the tyres, in multiple places around the tyres - these bubbles were much smaller than ones that you would see from a punctured tube. Not fast enough to deflate whilst riding but enough to flatten overnight. Now, is this normal? Are these tyres faulty? And why isn't the sealant sealing these holes which wouldn't have been caused by punctures. Examining the tyres and rims, and I couldn't see any sealant leaking out anywhere. So what is going on? Thanks for any advice.
Doesn't sound quite right to me. My experience of tubeless tyres is that the sidewalls shouldn't be porous. They might cure themselves sooner or later... Or they might not! HF's suggestion of upping the pressure sounds worth trying - it might help force the sealant into the holes.
What tyres are they? I know some tyres come in both tubeless and non-tubeless versions, so did you check carefully which version you were buying?
Post by: rafletcher on 24 January, 2021, 11:52:46 am
Were it me I'd take the wheels off, inflate to 90psi, and shake the wheels around (usually holding wheel level with the ground) to get the sealant all over methodically working my round the wheel. Then I'd leave them inflated at that pressure and monitor tomorrow.
Yep, that’s what I do too, plus “bounce” the over-inflated tyre on the ground whilst rotating it. And if they keep deflating, add more sealant.
Having said that, if I’ve had that sort of deflation issue it’s usually been at the bead. Initial over inflation is key IMO.
Post by: yoav on 24 January, 2021, 12:14:50 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 24 January, 2021, 01:49:37 pm
Its coming out of the sidewall, not the bead, in which case faulty tyre send back!!!
My friend had an identical issue with the same tyre a month or two back
Post by: hatler on 24 January, 2021, 01:53:22 pm
Sounds like their QA team needs a bit of a boot.
Post by: jiberjaber on 24 January, 2021, 03:20:39 pm
I've gone through a lot of Schwalbe g-one's and never had the issue, sounds like a defective tyre, though odd for both to suffer.
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 January, 2021, 03:36:29 pm
I had some IRC tyres which were a bit like that. Used to need pumping up for every ride. I retired them prematurely. When I took them off I could see a grid pattern in the sealant inside the tyre which I assumed corresponded to where it was most porous.
Post by: morbihan on 24 January, 2021, 05:45:45 pm
They are a bit of a mare to initially seal up and its imperative to use a gummy sealant (orange endurance)
Lots of semaphore and wavy stuff with your newly seated tire helps to really slosh the sealant around.
One particularly tricky tire I left on its side overnight, leaky sidewall down.
Once set up correctly though, its floaty heaven so worth the initial faff.
Are the G ones thin walled.
I imagine that the tires are made in batches and vary somewhat too.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 January, 2021, 06:11:09 pm
After ages with no flats, I got another one on todays training ride. That's two in about 700km. Which is very high for me.
I guess that's what I get for running summer tyres in January...
J
Post by: Lightning Phil on 24 January, 2021, 06:19:28 pm
“Tubeless Easy tires are not completely airtight tubeless tires. You need the sealant to guarantee they are airtight. A sealant can do this more effectively than an impermeable butyl liner.
Real tubeless tires, like you may have had in the past, did, in theory, work without sealant. But they were much heavier and in practice most riders still utilized a sealant. In the end, it was only the sealant that made the system reliable enough for regular riding.
In addition, the combination of Tubeless Easy tires and Doc Blue ensures superior protection against punctures and the sealant has no negative effects on rolling resistant.”
If you have mtn bike UST that is fully airtight and can run without sealant. But the way tubeless has got lighter (and faster rolling) is to make them non airtight like tubeless easy, which necessitates putting enough sealant in to seal them.
G one all round are tubeless easy
Post by: Zed43 on 24 January, 2021, 07:09:44 pm
After ages with no flats, I got another one on todays training ride. That's two in about 700km. Which is very high for me.How old is that tyre (in kilometers, not months) I very rarely have flats, when they happen it's often near the expected end-of-life (~ 7000km for Compass / RH extra light).
And I concur (sample size = 1) with Morbihan regarding Compass / RH extra light "tubeless ready": they're a pain in the ass to seal.
Anyway, it's no longer in my hands: bike A has classic box rims that are not TL compatible and bike B rides best with 38mm but those (from RH at least) are not available as tubeless ready.
Post by: Bolt on 24 January, 2021, 10:38:18 pm
"Is tubeless for everyone?
The advantages are most interesting for avid riders, looking for the maximum performance. The system is technically demanding and the standard for the optimum wheels is still developing. If you are just looking for a tire, that works trouble-free every day, Marathon Plus is the best choice. If you want the fastest tire with the best performance, there is no alternative to tubeless."
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 January, 2021, 10:55:43 pm
How old is that tyre (in kilometers, not months) I very rarely have flats, when they happen it's often near the expected end-of-life (~ 7000km for Compass / RH extra light).
And I concur (sample size = 1) with Morbihan regarding Compass / RH extra light "tubeless ready": they're a pain in the ass to seal.
Anyway, it's no longer in my hands: bike A has classic box rims that are not TL compatible and bike B rides best with 38mm but those (from RH at least) are not available as tubeless ready.
Um. That's a good question. I got two sets which got swapped about a bit cos of winter tyres going on for the 2019/2020 winter. So it could be as little as a 3000km, could be closer to 5000km... The TWI markers haven't disappeared yet maybe 0.5mm of depth?
The flat on xmas eve was the front tyre, today's was the rear.
J
Post by: yoav on 25 January, 2021, 02:15:08 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 25 January, 2021, 02:21:31 pm
Post by: TimC on 25 January, 2021, 03:13:31 pm
Post by: Morat on 29 January, 2021, 07:48:26 pm
Thanks, I'll give a try. The tyres are Schwalbe G-One Allround 700c x 35. Definitely tubeless tyres. Rating on the tyre is 45-70 psi. Will go for over-inflation and shake first. I'll have to go out and buy some more sealant tomorrow if that doesn't work and perhaps call the shop I bought them from. Porous side walls is new one on me too. I have video of the train of bubbles coming from the side walls. No sign of any sealant at the bead.
Not wishing to offend but do the tyres definitely have TL on the side and not P? Because they can be indistinguishable on the shop sites IME.
Post by: Davef on 29 January, 2021, 09:08:50 pm
Further update: after doing what was suggested above, blowing them up to 90 psi, then giving them a good sloshing about before leaving them overnight seems to have done the trick in that they have only lost a few psi overnight - 85psi. These are Schwalbe tubeless easy tyres with relatively flexible sidewalls - they came folded up - so I guess that the tiny leaks may be normal.I found this with schwalbe. They didn’t seem to keep pressure well so I got out a bowl of water to find the cause. They were loads of micro bubbles. Possibly the brand of sealant is more important. I am happier with conti 5000tl that air tight pre sealant.
Post by: yoav on 30 January, 2021, 01:44:09 pm
Davef: OK, obviously not just me then. Schwalbe do say that these tyres don't have a butyl liner and need sealant to be airtight. I guess that makes the tyres lighter and easier to mount (which they were) but I don't have experience with other TL tyres.
Went out today for first proper ride on these tyres with roads wet, slushy, mushy and muddy. With pressures at 45psi, felt very stable and no slides or other moments.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 30 January, 2021, 02:14:22 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 26 February, 2021, 03:22:13 pm
Pretty pricey for what it is but oh well, niche product and all that. Very small and light. Got a range of plugs and you can double them up for large holes.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 08 April, 2021, 04:07:25 pm
Milan San Remo was won on tubeless tyres this year and there is growing adoption of them for Spring Classics. Vittoria have released a run-flat foam insert for tubeless that prevents tyre from rolling off should it fully deflate, so that really is the final advantage of tubular tyres gone. Tubeless are considered to have lower rolling resistance than tubular so we are probably going to see the impending death of tubular tyres and wheels. Glad I just sold mine.
That isn't to say that tyres and tubes will also die, because they won't, but it could signal greater investment from manufacturers into developing tubeless technology that benefits those of us who do use it. As it stands it is still something that requires a bit of knowledge, technique and committment to make it work well, and it is most definitely not idiot proof.
I foresee it taking off over the next few years.
Post by: TimC on 08 April, 2021, 05:03:58 pm
https://cyclingtips.com/2021/04/the-tour-of-flanders-was-won-on-tubed-clinchers/
Post by: Hot Flatus on 08 April, 2021, 05:10:34 pm
The fight isn't over yet!
Might be for tubs, though. I sold mine recently thinking that their card was marked. For pro team logistics I would have thought that tubulars are a massive pain. Gluing takes fucking ages, and I don't suppose they mend their punctured tubs.
Post by: sojournermike on 08 April, 2021, 07:20:41 pm
It’s a fair point in that even wheels with very even and high tensions (1300N DS) can move slightly when a tubeless tyre is mounted, as a consequence of the spoke tension falling and (I suspect) rim non lines rotors at the joint for example. It’s not a problem, but is another thing to think about when building a set up. There again, I’m not building ultra light race wheels.
Overall, I’m sticking with tubeless. The safety and get you home benefits seem worthwhile to me, and they ride nicely. Appreciate my experience is good and I met a chap the other day who had really struggled, but when he described how he’d used sealant I understood - he hadn’t realised you can fill and top up the tyres through the valve core. He thought he needed to remove them to top up and, of course, that gets messy.
There is also a growing range of potentially lovely tyres to - I’ve a pair of Challenge Paris-Roubaix the waiting for the warm to arrive.
Post by: TimC on 08 April, 2021, 07:31:33 pm
I'm old enough to remember tubed car tyres. It's only taken, what, 50 years to come round to bikes?
Post by: sojournermike on 08 April, 2021, 07:34:09 pm
I have one set of Schwalbe tubs for my TT bike. They've done a total of 17 miles, and may never turn again as I doubt I'll ever do another TT. I am pretty much sold on tubeless, but I have a lot of bikes so the change is gradual! It was interesting to read about the Specialized/Roval preference for tubed, and I too clicked through to the explanation. I guess they're going about it a different way from others, but I think even they accept that tubeless is the future.
I'm old enough to remember tubed car tyres. It's only taken, what, 50 years to come round to bikes?
Indeed, a blowout was a constant fear for those of us that used to run old rusty tubed car tyres. I’ve had similar with latex tubed bike tyres. Hence my preference for tubeless.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 08 April, 2021, 07:40:11 pm
Appreciate my experience is good and I met a chap the other day who had really struggled, but when he described how he’d used sealant I understood - he hadn’t realised you can fill and top up the tyres through the valve core. He thought he needed to remove them to top up and, of course, that gets messy.
This is the thing, when you hear other people's negative experiences (of anything) you have to account for the possibility that they might not know what they are doing, and their lack of knowledge might be the actual problem rather than the product. I suppose with increased uptake you might get a better sharing of knowledge and perhaps development of products that are even friendlier to use. I wouldn't say that tubeless is a dark art, but as we have said before there is a learning curve and it doesn't end with the mounting of the tyre.
Post by: bobb on 10 April, 2021, 06:25:35 pm
Anyway, I think I'm closer than ever to biting the bullet, but I'm still confused.
I only have one bike with suitable wheels for tubeless (all the others would need new wheels, so I'm more inclined to wait until I feel I've got a decent life out them before replacing). The wheels in question have Pacenti SL25 rims. As I understand it these are "Tubeless ready".
So are all sealants, tape and valves made equal? Would the Stans No Tubes kit (https://www.wiggle.co.uk/stans-no-tubes-road-tubeless-tyre-kit) be the way to go or are there better alternatives?
I seem to remember reading that you can't use CO2 to inflate as the sealant doesn't like it, but some sealant is ok with it (latex free perhaps?). I don't mind buying an Airshot pump thing if that's what I need. Oh and a valve core remover if one is required?
As for tyres, well - I'd prefer a pair that aren't more expensive than 4 new tyres for my car as many seem to be!
Any suggestions?
Post by: Hot Flatus on 10 April, 2021, 06:58:03 pm
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tesa-Tape-4289-Tubes-Tubeless-Rim-Tape-19mm-and-25mm-wide-x-66-meters-long-/164039188126?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286
Valves: Cheap ones seem to work as well as expensive ones IME. I prefer the ones with rectangular blocks if the rim is narrow. But Stans valves are good.
Valve core remover. These cost nothing. Could make one even.
Sealant: DO NOT use Finish Line. It's shit. All the others work. Stans is fine and they make many of the other brands. I like OrangeSeal Endurance
Sealant Injector: Worth having for Topping up. Saves having to unhook tyre then reseat.
Trackpump: Might get away with just this if you use tight tyres like Hutchinson Fusion 5
Airshot: ^ if not using tight tyres.
Tyres: Depends entirely what you want, racy, durable etc... give us a clue.
And the most useful thing? A small bowl of water with a good squirt of Fairy liquid in it and foam washing up pad to wipe on beads before mounting. ESSENTIAL
HTH.
Soujournmike is a good source of info on TL. I'm sure he'll find his way here.
Puncture kit: Dynaplug Racer in case of unsealable hole (don't bother with anything else) spare tube in case it doesn't work, tiny pliers to get valve out in case of over-tightening
Post by: bobb on 10 April, 2021, 07:18:41 pm
I'd be happy with a tyre somewhere in the middle performance wise. This bike only really gets used from April to October. Although TBH, that's more down to previous tyre choices.
I quite like the idea of Hutchinson tyres as they seem reasonably priced.
Does it have to be Fairy Liquid or will Sainsbury's own brand do? :P
Post by: Hot Flatus on 10 April, 2021, 07:21:08 pm
Hutchinson Fusion 5 Storm seem good so far.
Hutchinson manufacture Pirelli and Mavic tyres.
Schwalbe One are great but fragile. You used to be able to pick them up cheap but those days are over.
Post by: jiberjaber on 10 April, 2021, 07:41:11 pm
Cheers!
I'd be happy with a tyre somewhere in the middle performance wise. This bike only really gets used from April to October. Although TBH, that's more down to previous tyre choices.
I quite like the idea of Hutchinson tyres as they seem reasonably priced.
Does it have to be Fairy Liquid or will Sainsbury's own brand do? :P
If you get stuck, I've got an airshot if you need to pop over - makes things a lot easier (esp when refitting tyres after swapping for something else). I think Sister Carlos has ran tubeless on his bacon rims.
I've quite liking the planetX sealant at the moment, seems to be hassle free so far and quite good value.
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/WSOKOMMHF/oko-magic-milk-hi-fibre-tyre-sealant
Post by: Feanor on 10 April, 2021, 07:43:54 pm
These have a second flapper valve deeper inside them, so you can remove the valve core and insert the syringe into the tyre without fully de-pressurising it.
You can leave say 10 psi in the tyre and sook out old sealant and add new without un-seating or re-seating the tyre or any such nonsense.
Milkit sealant too.
I also bought a joe blow pump with a built-in air reservoir which you pump up to 160 psi then dump into the tyre, to seat it.
This works well.
For the tyres on my gravel bike, it took several attempts to seat them.
Lube. Lots of lube. ( generic washing up liquid ).
This was on the advice of a local bike mechanic on a bike club webinar which was arranged over lockdown.
I've no experience of other systems.
Post by: bobb on 10 April, 2021, 07:46:56 pm
Cheers!
I'd be happy with a tyre somewhere in the middle performance wise. This bike only really gets used from April to October. Although TBH, that's more down to previous tyre choices.
I quite like the idea of Hutchinson tyres as they seem reasonably priced.
Does it have to be Fairy Liquid or will Sainsbury's own brand do? :P
If you get stuck, I've got an airshot if you need to pop over - makes things a lot easier (esp when refitting tyres after swapping for something else). I think Sister Carlos has ran tubeless on his bacon rims.
I've quite liking the planetX sealant at the moment, seems to be hassle free so far and quite good value.
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/WSOKOMMHF/oko-magic-milk-hi-fibre-tyre-sealant
Ta! If I go ahead, I may well have to drop by.
I remember Carlos saying something about his Pacenti rims being corroded by the sealant (or something), but there doesn't appear to be anyone else on the entire internet who has had that problem!
Seeing as you need to top up now and again, can you mix sealants, or should you always stick to the same brand/type?
Post by: bobb on 10 April, 2021, 07:48:32 pm
For valves, I have been using the Milkit system.
These have a second flapper valve deeper inside them, so you can remove the valve core and insert the syringe into the tyre without fully de-pressurising it.
You can leave say 10 psi in the tyre and sook out old sealant and add new without un-seating or re-seating the tyre or any such nonsense.
Milkit sealant too.
I also bought a joe blow pump with a built-in air reservoir which you pump up to 160 psi then dump into the tyre, to seat it.
This works well.
For the tyres on my gravel bike, it took several attempts to seat them.
Lube. Lots of lube. ( generic washing up liquid ).
This was on the advice of a local bike mechanic on a bike club webinar which was arranged over lockdown.
I've no experience of other systems.
Cheers, Milkit turned up in my Googling. Looks good...
Post by: Hot Flatus on 10 April, 2021, 08:12:30 pm
Seeing as you need to top up now and again, can you mix sealants, or should you always stick to the same brand/type?
I've never had issues mixing. Just top up every 3 months or if you've had a big jizzy puncture.
Post by: jiberjaber on 10 April, 2021, 08:54:33 pm
I've had no luck with Milkit valves and ditched them, you can fill through a normal valve with (mostly) no issues. My Milkit valves always fell apart internally, there's a stick on the end of the valve that opens the vale stem end, it never stayed on, I went through about 5 valves before giving it up as a bad thing.For valves, I have been using the Milkit system.
These have a second flapper valve deeper inside them, so you can remove the valve core and insert the syringe into the tyre without fully de-pressurising it.
You can leave say 10 psi in the tyre and sook out old sealant and add new without un-seating or re-seating the tyre or any such nonsense.
Milkit sealant too.
I also bought a joe blow pump with a built-in air reservoir which you pump up to 160 psi then dump into the tyre, to seat it.
This works well.
For the tyres on my gravel bike, it took several attempts to seat them.
Lube. Lots of lube. ( generic washing up liquid ).
This was on the advice of a local bike mechanic on a bike club webinar which was arranged over lockdown.
I've no experience of other systems.
Cheers, Milkit turned up in my Googling. Looks good...
Only thing I did keep from it all was the syringe.
The valve inserts are generally consumable and will eventually gum up and let less air through, you can keep cleaning them but eventually they don't let enough air through and need replacing. I think it was this gumming up that led to the stem detaching on mine.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 10 April, 2021, 08:58:43 pm
Post by: jiberjaber on 10 April, 2021, 09:17:22 pm
Post by: Davef on 10 April, 2021, 09:26:55 pm
Post by: Feanor on 10 April, 2021, 09:35:53 pm
One day I am going to harvest the valve cores from the mound of inner tubes that I never summoned up the enthusiasm to patch. One day.
I've done that for a while now.
Mostly because someone at this address is rather clumsy when removing the pump head from the valve after giving it a top-up.
Rather than carefully and briskly pulling the pump head off the valve in a straight line in the axis of the valve, they seem to just randomly yank at it in any which direction till it comes off.
This results in the little internal threaded bit becoming bent and snapping off in short order.
Again.
So I have a bag o' spare valve cores for this case.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 10 April, 2021, 09:38:56 pm
Now I have a mound of patched, de-cored tubes that just stare at me reminding me what an environmental horror show I am.
One day I'll remember building sites. Any building site. And just fuck them all into the bin without a single thought.
Post by: sojournermike on 10 April, 2021, 11:06:40 pm
Tyres - Hutchinson Fusion 5 11Storm All Season sound like your sort of thing and should go up with a track pump on SL25s. There are also lighter Performance and very light Galaktic versions. If you want a bit wider then WTB Exposure come up between 30 and 32mm wide on SL25s and ride nicely, but they are a bit harder to set up than the Hutchinson and mine went flat overnight a few times before settling down. Continue GP5000 are also good, but they are usually still expensive.
Buy a few spare presta valve cores and you’ll likely get given a couple of keys.
Orange Seal Endurance is probably still too dog. I’m currently using Oko High Fibre, but haven’t anything to say about it yet. Buy a litre so you can top up. Some sort of injector so you can fill/top up through the valve stem - I’ve got a Stans version, plus a couple of big syringes from other uses.
Don’t let the sealant dry out - it’s easy enough to check by taking out the valve core and poking a small Allen key down into the pool like a dipstick. If you do let it dry out and then go for a ride that includes a descent of Greenhow Hill it can be a tad unnerving.
If you’re near Harrogate I’ll happily tape your rims for you and help you get set up, or ask here of course.
Mike
Post by: bobb on 10 April, 2021, 11:11:26 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 10 April, 2021, 11:14:52 pm
d very light Galaktic versions.
They have an incredible feel but mine punctured beyond sealing on the second outing and I took them off. They do not have any sort of puncture protection in them at all.
Post by: sojournermike on 10 April, 2021, 11:41:23 pm
d very light Galaktic versions.
They have an incredible feel but mine punctured beyond sealing on the second outing and I took them off. They do not have any sort of puncture protection in them at all.
I’ve got a pair of Corsa Speed tale if you’d like to try them;)
Post by: zigzag on 11 April, 2021, 03:51:21 pm
* well, there is some additional faff with them, but benefits outweigh drawbacks
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 11 April, 2021, 04:43:21 pm
Post by: sojournermike on 11 April, 2021, 05:52:18 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 11 April, 2021, 05:55:25 pm
An alternative to cutting the valve hole with a craft knife is to poke a small hole with a needle or even the tip of the valve and then to push the valve through. Don’t use a knife to cut a slot or a cross as that is more likely to lead to splits and leaks.
+1 to this
I use a brawdle, then just push the valve through carefully. You really dont want to be making any sort of lateral cut as you then have the possibility of enlarging it if the valve wiggles a bit when pumping.
Also, despite what somebody says upthread you DO NOT want your tape running up the inside of the rim wall. You want it edge-to-edge, so measure the width of your rims and add 1-2mm to account for the well in the rim bed.*
* see tubeless manufacturers instructions, such as Stans https://www.notubes.com/support-center/faq
Post by: Lightning Phil on 11 April, 2021, 06:36:19 pm
Post by: Davef on 11 April, 2021, 07:17:22 pm
I would only add to warm up the tyre before using. Unfold it and sit it in the airing cupboard or over a radiators for a couple of hours. Makes mounting a lot easier.I tried this and got very hot and claustrophobic in the airing cupboard. Ok makes more sense now without skipping the “it”
Post by: TimC on 11 April, 2021, 08:25:35 pm
Post by: yoav on 12 April, 2021, 09:50:22 am
Post by: Hot Flatus on 12 April, 2021, 10:07:13 am
But on the other side I can't really see a purpose for this product other than pro racing as the rest of us tend to stop and deal with tubeless punctures that dont seal.
Post by: TimC on 12 April, 2021, 10:25:07 am
Post by: Hot Flatus on 12 April, 2021, 10:36:15 am
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 12 April, 2021, 10:37:12 am
Post by: TimC on 12 April, 2021, 10:40:20 am
Yes I get that, but you'd still end up with a really soft tyred ride home. Most of the time I don't stop because the tyre sorts itself out quickly, but if it doesn't then I do stop preciisely because I don't want a soft tyred ride home. Anyway, we'll see what happens with take up. Just saying that I don't think I will be an early adopter of these. I'll let you buy some and report back :P
No, I won't be buying any. Touch wood, I've suffered only one puncture in the last 5 years. I own 9 bikes, and regularly use most of them (even if I don't actually go very far) so the investment would be a significant proportion of N+1!
Post by: MartinC on 12 April, 2021, 11:29:44 am
There's a long discussion possible about the cultural aspects of bike technology but at the moment it brings to mind the old Burl Ives song about the woman who swallowed a fly.
Verschlimmbessern.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 12 April, 2021, 11:57:32 am
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 April, 2021, 12:54:15 pm
Post by: TimC on 12 April, 2021, 12:58:14 pm
Post by: MartinC on 12 April, 2021, 01:07:04 pm
It has long been this way. Think about how and why the quick-release and the parallegram derailleur were invented; technology which I'm sure you use. Ditto STI levers. Tubeless tyres are an example where this isn't the case.
I disagree. It's become a far more marked phenomenon since the demise of utility cycling in USA/UK. There's also a distinction between beneficial technology that trickles down from racing and that which is given to racing largely for the purpose of marketing to the general public. Slant Parallelogram mechs became useful with indexed gearing and wide ratio cassettes - there were many drivers for this, and they've been uninvented now that it's "necessary" to shift the market to 1x transmissions. STI's (and the necessary indexing) have created such a mish mash of conflicting transmission and braking standards that if you're not in the business of changing your bike every 2 years you need to be an expert to keep it running.
It's interesting to watch (and maybe for you to think about) the way companies like Microshift, Sunrace and Dia Compe are generating a market in more down to earth componentry as Shimano and SRAM more heavily invest themselves in the fashionable end and vacate the more prosaic market (as Campag did years ago). Electric bikes are the biggest growing market and it cuts right across race led marketing.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 12 April, 2021, 01:40:43 pm
I can't remember when utility cycling was a thing, certainly not since the 70s and I suggest car ownership has largely killed it outside of a resurgence in a few cities. Equally when you look at the market share of companies like Suntour, Microshift etc it is microscopic in relation to Shimano. So if you are thinking in terms of 40 years, then yes I agree.
In my time cycling (40 years) I'm struggling to think of a mainstream technology that didn't come via racing (clip less, pedals, STI, electronic gears) Ht2 and aheadset came from MTB.
I'm sure you are quite correct to talk about electric bikes as the future, and with environmental factors starting to bite these will only accelerate.
Post by: Davef on 12 April, 2021, 01:51:08 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 12 April, 2021, 01:58:13 pm
There are a large number of people that race that aren’t professionals. Triathlon is hugely popular as are sportives. Just for general riding I can see a get me home run flat would be a winner. I will be doing some investigating.
Thinking about it, yes, you have a point, particularly in the light of discussions upthread about superlight tubeless tyres that have no inbuilt puncture protection. Still very niche, but then so are tubulars.
Post by: Davef on 12 April, 2021, 02:22:10 pm
Well they seem to have sold out.There are a large number of people that race that aren’t professionals. Triathlon is hugely popular as are sportives. Just for general riding I can see a get me home run flat would be a winner. I will be doing some investigating.
Thinking about it, yes, you have a point, particularly in the light of discussions upthread about superlight tubeless tyres that have no inbuilt puncture protection. Still very niche, but then so are tubulars.
Post by: MartinC on 12 April, 2021, 03:41:38 pm
x1 Road is dead, because pro racing (Team Aqua) so I'm not sure where that leaves either of us. ;D
I can't remember when utility cycling was a thing, certainly not since the 70s and I suggest car ownership has largely killed it outside of a resurgence in a few cities. Equally when you look at the market share of companies like Suntour, Microshift etc it is microscopic in relation to Shimano. So if you are thinking in terms of 40 years, then yes I agree.
In my time cycling (40 years) I'm struggling to think of a mainstream technology that didn't come via racing (clip less, pedals, STI, electronic gears) Ht2 and aheadset came from MTB.
I'm sure you are quite correct to talk about electric bikes as the future, and with environmental factors starting to bite these will only accelerate.
We're in danger of causing too much thread drift.
To go back to airliners, what struck me was that it was iterative elaboration to try and fix a shortcoming of a previous elaboration - tubeless is less likely to fail in service but when it does it's harder to fix and the initial installation is more complex, more expensive and creates another incompatibility problem. This manifests itself differently in the different genres of cycling but is another marketing opportunity for for those marketing the previous shortcomings. To go back even further to the OP (TL or not?) it's an example of the people who sold you the original product selling you the fix to it.
There are many parallels with other markets. Software is a classic. So too is the car industry - manufacturers are desperate to go electric now 'cos the ICE has reached the peak of over elaboration and going back to an old technology (electric motors with better batteries) makes economic (as well as environmental) sense. I'm not sure how this pans out in the bike business but Shimano and SRAM seem intent on doing the equivalent of refining ICE's ad infinitum.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 12 April, 2021, 04:33:37 pm
To go back to airliners, what struck me was that it was iterative elaboration to try and fix a shortcoming of a previous elaboration - tubeless is less likely to fail in service but when it does it's harder to fix and the initial installation is more complex, more expensive and creates another incompatibility problem. This manifests itself differently in the different genres of cycling but is another marketing opportunity for for those marketing the previous shortcomings. To go back even further to the OP (TL or not?) it's an example of the people who sold you the original product selling you the fix to it.
Initial installation (if you include valve and tape) is definitely more complex, subsequent tyre installation is marginally more complex, to an experienced pair of hands it is a 15 minute job all told...but by and large you only have to do it once, and not every time you puncture. Is it more expensive? Marginally. You are saving £5 on an inner tube and using maybe £5 of sealant a year. Valves are pretty cheap. Where you don't save is actual tyres because limited demand dictates a narrow choice and most of them are premium products.
When tubeless sealant fails to fill a hole you plug it. It is much easier than dealing with a clincher puncture. Usually, if you are quick on your feet, you don't even lose full inflation.
So, in answer to your post the problem that Airliner solves is only a problem for those that ride without plugs, a pump, or a spare inner tube. That isn't me, so I still can't really see a use for me. Maybe it'll mean I can dispense with that kit at some point but I'll need more convincing.
Post by: Davef on 12 April, 2021, 04:37:15 pm
I am seeing them differently. I see tubeless as a means of avoiding puncture repairs and they achieve this 95% of the time or more where a traditional set up would require removing the wheel and tyre. In that 5% it is a case of taking out the valve and topping up with fluid. This does not require taking wheel off but it takes a few minutes. Once every 15,000km (in my experience) you have to spend 20 minutes doing a traditional but slightly messier inner tube insertion.x1 Road is dead, because pro racing (Team Aqua) so I'm not sure where that leaves either of us. ;D
I can't remember when utility cycling was a thing, certainly not since the 70s and I suggest car ownership has largely killed it outside of a resurgence in a few cities. Equally when you look at the market share of companies like Suntour, Microshift etc it is microscopic in relation to Shimano. So if you are thinking in terms of 40 years, then yes I agree.
In my time cycling (40 years) I'm struggling to think of a mainstream technology that didn't come via racing (clip less, pedals, STI, electronic gears) Ht2 and aheadset came from MTB.
I'm sure you are quite correct to talk about electric bikes as the future, and with environmental factors starting to bite these will only accelerate.
We're in danger of causing too much thread drift.
To go back to airliners, what struck me was that it was iterative elaboration to try and fix a shortcoming of a previous elaboration - tubeless is less likely to fail in service but when it does it's harder to fix and the initial installation is more complex, more expensive and creates another incompatibility problem. This manifests itself differently in the different genres of cycling but is another marketing opportunity for for those marketing the previous shortcomings. To go back even further to the OP (TL or not?) it's an example of the people who sold you the original product selling you the fix to it.
There are many parallels with other markets. Software is a classic. So too is the car industry - manufacturers are desperate to go electric now 'cos the ICE has reached the peak of over elaboration and going back to an old technology (electric motors with better batteries) makes economic (as well as environmental) sense. I'm not sure how this pans out in the bike business but Shimano and SRAM seem intent on doing the equivalent of refining ICE's ad infinitum.
Partly I see this a a convenience but partly as not loosing too much time in an event where it is important.
I see this new addition as reducing that 5% even further. You would then have the decision to make whether to spend a couple of minutes topping up and inflating or complete what you are doing more slowly.
Post by: MartinC on 12 April, 2021, 05:48:04 pm
I am seeing them differently........
I don't think we see it differently. It's all about use cases. Depends what's important to you.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 April, 2021, 09:15:58 pm
Post by: bobb on 13 April, 2021, 07:00:05 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 13 April, 2021, 07:19:52 pm
Post by: Zed43 on 13 April, 2021, 09:39:23 pm
Post by: sib on 13 April, 2021, 10:03:55 pm
Post by: bobb on 13 April, 2021, 10:37:16 pm
Post by: sojournermike on 14 April, 2021, 07:04:18 am
28 at 70-75 rear and 65-70 front
30(32) at 50-60 rear and 45-55 front
I’m around 80kgs. Can go higher, but I don’t see the need. These are 10-15 psi lower than the last tuned tyres I ran. I’d be inclined to experiment a bit and see what works for you, but comfort helps speed by and large.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 April, 2021, 07:11:54 am
(moral of the story is you do need to check pressure more often. I don't know if I imagine this but they feel harder than tubed tyres when quite deflated)
Post by: Sea of vapours on 14 April, 2021, 10:02:24 am
28mm at 70 psi rear and 60 psi front.
Post by: Peat on 21 April, 2021, 08:37:24 am
If you have seasonal tyres, what have you found to be the best course of action for removing the old sealant? Scrape it off while still moist or let it dry out?
I am in the process of mounting my summer MTB tyres and It looks like I had cleaned the carcass a bit but the beads were covered in crud. I tried to mount them, but no chance. The air just whistles out.
Anyway, I tried picking some off but it was very crumbly. So, I soaked the tyres in a bucket of water overnight, refilled it with hot water this morning and was able to pull quite long sections off at a time. There are a few bits left, but i'm hoping they will come off with some vigorous rubbing later when they have dried out again.
The moral of the story here, I think, is to get as much of the old sealant off when you remove the tyre. I have done that with the mud tyre I have just removed and it all came off like soft cheese. A fair bit easier than the process of removing the baked on crap.
I've had tubeless road tyres for a few years now, I like them. My maintenance schedule at 4 month intervals. 2x top ups followed by a full service them (remove all sealant) as the build up becomes substantial. For a new tyre, I think the first interval should be <2mths. I had an experience recently where a puncture failed to seal due to the tyre being almost dry inside, the initial 60ml seems to have all been used up in coating the tyre/rim bed leaving not enough loose. I did find a few thorns in it (when tubing it.....always the backup) so maybe I lost a bit with those punctures.
Anyway, to someone thinking about making the switch, this may all sound overwhelmingly complicated and adding in an unnecessary layer of faff into your cycling world. But all in all, I think the annual faff time is roughly equivalent with tubes. The boon is that 99% of tubeless faff can be done at your convenience in your garage/garden and not at the side of the road.
Post by: mcshroom on 21 April, 2021, 09:52:09 am
- What do you actually carry out on the road? Do I need something like a CO2 inflater or am I going to be ok with a mini pump normally?
- Does anyone have any recommendations for 32mm road tyres for audax? (Preferably some that don't cost the earth? ;D)
Post by: Peat on 21 April, 2021, 02:07:03 pm
Stage 1 - Small puncture that the sealant repairs.
This might leave you with a slightly soft tyre. Hence a pump is good to top it back up.
Stage 2 - Full deflation.
You will likely need to repair the tyre. I've used 'Stans Darts' & 'Dynaplugs' and have had more success with the latter. If you're unlucky, the tyre might become unseated from the bead. In which case a CO2 pump can provide enough grunt to pop it back on - however there is a risk of spoiling the remaining sealant via freezing.
Stage 3 - Split sidewall/puncture that won't seal
Last resort - boot and tube. Just make sure you thoroughly inspect the carcass for thorns etc before inserting the tube. I found 4 last time. You can get some fancy tiny lightweight tubes (Tubulito), only needed to use it once in a few years.
- I have a 32mm pair of Specialized Roubaix Pro's. Originally bought them as a cheapish winter tyre. Left them on ever since. They are really quite good.
Post by: Davef on 21 April, 2021, 03:52:06 pm
In which case a CO2 pump can provide enough grunt to pop it back on - however there is a risk of spoiling the remaining sealant via freezing.I don’t think this is the case. When you open the canister the co2 boils off leaving the remaining liquid co2 (and the canister containing it ) to drop rapidly in temperature. The gas that has gone into the tyre I would expect to be above ambient temperature (much like the back of my fridge)
Post by: rafletcher on 21 April, 2021, 04:04:05 pm
In which case a CO2 pump can provide enough grunt to pop it back on - however there is a risk of spoiling the remaining sealant via freezing.I don’t think this is the case. When you open the canister the co2 boils off leaving the remaining liquid co2 (and the canister containing it ) to drop rapidly in temperature. The gas that has gone into the tyre I would expect to be above ambient temperature (much like the back of my fridge)
Except a tyre inflated with CO2 is definitely colder to the touch than ambient, so I guess it's still some expansion going on in the tyre with consequent temperature drop.
Post by: Peat on 21 April, 2021, 04:18:52 pm
This is what the Caffelatex people say: https://www.effettomariposa.eu/en/caffelatex-co2/
Re: the back of the fridge hypothesis - Whenever I have used a CO2 cartridge, the valve stem and lockring turn white with frost, indicating that the air going in is frigid.
Post by: sojournermike on 21 April, 2021, 05:38:53 pm
I like the idea of tubeless, particularly the puncture sealing. I am usually at the back end of an audax field and could do without losing the extra time to a puncture. Changing is a commitment to replacing a lot of stuff I already have though, so I want to get it right before jumping in. I'm slowly working up to going tubeless as I've upgraded my kit. I now have a pump with an air chamber, some tubeless gravel tyres, TLR wheels and even a conversion kit. A couple of things I've not sorted yet though are: -
- What do you actually carry out on the road? Do I need something like a CO2 inflater or am I going to be ok with a mini pump normally?
- Does anyone have any recommendations for 32mm road tyres for audax? (Preferably some that don't cost the earth? ;D)
I’m currently using WTB Exposure 30mm on 20mm internal rims. They seem to come up between 30 and 32 wide. Ride nicely and, after a few overnight deflation’s, have settled down nicely. Easy to mount and inflate first time too.
A more expensive option might be Continental GP5000 in 32mm. I’ve not tried them, but I’ve got the 28s on another bike and they are nice and easy to ride. Quite right on the rim, but easy to inflate.
I only have a track pump. No fancy chamber.
I carry a phone locally and worms on a long ride. I don’t carry CO2. I might take a tube on a really long ride, but I’ve not done one for ages and ages.
Post by: Davef on 21 April, 2021, 06:01:00 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 21 April, 2021, 06:33:04 pm
Post by: L CC on 16 May, 2021, 09:32:35 am
I had a hole that wouldn't seal. Glass-strewn cycle path in Gateshead. Plugged it. Didn't have the right glasses on, couldn't see properly. Re-plugged at home. Seemed OK. Didn't hold pressure overnight - time to GAMI. Shop topped up sealant, all good, but recommended a service (hmm, income generation, surely not) and said if I was planning on 'events' rather than just riding, perhaps changing the tyres would be prudent. Recommended Spesh Roubaix.
Service duly booked, bike not ready to collect 24 hours later.. Tyres not holding air. "we've had this before with these tyres" WTF, why did you recommend them then...!
Anyway, they don't want to send it home till it spends a night without a massive pressure drop. I guess if I was DIY I'd do as recommended upthread and take it for a ride to settle the sealant in, and they're not likely to do that given that the grease monkeys are big 6 foot blokes and the bike is XS.
Post by: TimC on 16 May, 2021, 01:00:14 pm
Post by: zigzag on 16 May, 2021, 01:02:34 pm
Post by: jiberjaber on 16 May, 2021, 04:56:54 pm
i would ask how much sealant they've put in and if they sloshed it around properly. if the whole internal surface is covered with sealant, air leaking should stop. (there are some "tubeless" tyres that leak no matter what, but afaik roubaix are not one of them)This
Horizontal wobbly rotation both sides should get a decent coating all around. Shouldn't take a ride to sort. If it's not working after that then either needs more sealant or more likely the tape might be insufficient.
Post by: Davef on 16 May, 2021, 07:42:23 pm
Post by: jiberjaber on 16 May, 2021, 08:43:42 pm
My gut feeling is that the sealant does not stay distributed over the inner surface and runs down collecting at the bottom when the bike is not in use. Only when you are riding is it distributed. Of course that might be completely wrong, but like whether the light actually goes off when the fridge door closes, I will never know for sure.Depends on the sealant. Caffé latex foams in movement for example whereas Stans doesn't. Some sealant needs shaking before putting in the tyre so the bits that help plug are distributed, try that with Cafe latex and it will be a bubbly mess when you try to decant :)
Most sealant will however pool when the bike has been stood for a while.
Post by: yoav on 20 May, 2021, 07:28:41 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 20 May, 2021, 07:56:12 pm
https://www.westbrookcycles.co.uk/dynaplug-racer-tubeless-tyre-repair-kit-p342562/s632813?cid=GBP&gclid=Cj0KCQjwkZiFBhD9ARIsAGxFX8BVtSgaqGY-FvzRPf1d8elOMTim-YaQR36KFE_DRPUMJ1sKt97ZMzQaAmoFEALw_wcB
Post by: yoav on 21 May, 2021, 08:42:24 am
Post by: L CC on 21 May, 2021, 11:25:04 am
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1320/6923/products/Web_20300_bar_end_puncture_plug_tool_purple_8_2020_1000x1000.jpg?v=1616049225)
Post by: neilrj on 21 May, 2021, 04:31:52 pm
I got this one- lives in the bar ends, lovely purple.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1320/6923/products/Web_20300_bar_end_puncture_plug_tool_purple_8_2020_1000x1000.jpg?v=1616049225)
Want, link please!
Post by: L CC on 21 May, 2021, 04:52:09 pm
Post by: L CC on 21 May, 2021, 06:37:09 pm
Sticking some anecdata in here..
I had a hole that wouldn't seal. Glass-strewn cycle path in Gateshead. Plugged it. Didn't have the right glasses on, couldn't see properly. Re-plugged at home. Seemed OK. Didn't hold pressure overnight - time to GAMI. Shop topped up sealant, all good, but recommended a service (hmm, income generation, surely not) and said if I was planning on 'events' rather than just riding, perhaps changing the tyres would be prudent. Recommended Spesh Roubaix.
Service duly booked, bike not ready to collect 24 hours later.. Tyres not holding air. "we've had this before with these tyres" WTF, why did you recommend them then...!
Anyway, they don't want to send it home till it spends a night without a massive pressure drop. I guess if I was DIY I'd do as recommended upthread and take it for a ride to settle the sealant in, and they're not likely to do that given that the grease monkeys are big 6 foot blokes and the bike is XS.
After another few days they phoned and said they reckon the tyres are faulty. They've put the old ones back on, no problem at all. Claim in to Specialized.
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 21 May, 2021, 06:46:07 pm
I got this one- lives in the bar ends, lovely purple.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1320/6923/products/Web_20300_bar_end_puncture_plug_tool_purple_8_2020_1000x1000.jpg?v=1616049225)
Want, link please!
Damn. Now I'm going to have to go tubeless! :facepalm:
Post by: neilrj on 21 May, 2021, 08:52:33 pm
Bling (https://muc-off.com/collections/tubeless-kit-range/products/stealth-tubeless-puncture-plug?variant=32043474485346)
Shiny, oh and lots of other colours too, damn it's pretty, hell it might even work!
Why do I keep hearing "precious my precious"
Ordered, got 15% off through MO website to bring it down in price to just below others and with a (no doubt) tacky free gift, I just need tubeless on MY bike now though... No seriously I don't have tubeless! My SO does though so that's OK isn't it ;-)
Post by: Peat on 27 May, 2021, 08:34:08 am
1x Sidewall cut (slate) and 1x flint gash in the tread. Neither were sealed by Stans Darts (though, i use Caffelatex sealant. Perhaps not quite the same properties as Stans?). Sidewall cut was fixed with one of my partners Dynaplugs and a goodly amount of vulcanising rubber cement. The tread gash was about 10mm long and was 'fixed' with the old fashioned worm type repair (doubled over for the width, again used rubber cement).
In both instances, the repairs took a few hours to eventually seal meaning many stops to top up the air.
I have lost confidence in the WTB Nano's i was using and have switched to a set of Panaracer GravelkingSK's that I have run before (tubed). A googling of WTB tyres gives ample evidence that the sidewalls are pretty weak. I found a similar trend with Schwalbe tyres on my MTB and have moved away from the brand as a result.
I won't be replacing my Stans Dart. Instead I now carry Dynaplugs.
In other news, I have bought a 24L compressor for the workshop. Makes mounting even the most stubborn rim/tyre combo an absolute breeze. I also think think that it seats them so firmly that when you do get a flat, the bead is less likely to pop off on it's own.
That's the post.
Post by: MartinC on 27 May, 2021, 11:02:53 am
Post by: Hot Flatus on 27 May, 2021, 11:06:49 am
Have I been exceptionally lucky, or are there other factors at play?
Post by: MartinC on 27 May, 2021, 11:37:41 am
........Have I been exceptionally lucky, or are there other factors at play?
I think where and how you cycle and the tyres you use are the determinants. The last one I can remember was (a long time ago) when I was commuting on Pasela's and went over a broken bottle in an underpass. Now I don't use skinwall tyres on utility bikes, have better lights and keep an eye out for broken glass now so it hasn't happened again so far. But I'm certainly aware of the possibility.
Post by: L CC on 27 May, 2021, 11:43:02 am
Post by: bobb on 27 May, 2021, 12:15:54 pm
In 40 years of riding I've never had a sidewall gash.
Have I been exceptionally lucky, or are there other factors at play?
I've only had one on a road bike. No idea what caused it. I was on a 100 mile club run, but fortunately it happened after about 99 miles so I only had a short walk home!
I've had a few on MTB though, the worst being after I hit something very metal and very rusty buried in the woods. That was a walking job too - tyre was shredded...
Post by: Peat on 27 May, 2021, 12:24:54 pm
Before my tubeless days, I would use GP4000s. They were bad for it. They used the soft compound 'black-chili' well over the shoulder and down the side. I feel like if the sidewall material is soft or textured (Schwalbe/WTB), it will be more likely to hold onto a passing foreign object instead of pinging it away.
I'm hopeful with the Gravelkings. They have a smooth & shiny sidewall. When i ran them tubed before, I did have a few flats from the odd thorn or tiny slither of flint, but it was always in the tread.
Post by: Andy W on 31 May, 2021, 07:29:08 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 31 May, 2021, 08:23:52 pm
Post by: Andy W on 31 May, 2021, 08:38:13 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 31 May, 2021, 08:45:49 pm
My train of thought was that it was a lot of incidents almost immediately and I was about to suggest a change of tyre brand....but I've conflated you in my head with someone else.
Yeah...one puncture, no biggie. Several options if touring, but always take a few inner tubes as you would with normal tyres. Also, a Dynaplug Racer is well worth having for unsealable holes. And take a decent pump.
Post by: Andy W on 31 May, 2021, 09:14:46 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 31 May, 2021, 09:21:21 pm
Post by: Andy W on 31 May, 2021, 09:57:50 pm
Post by: Hot Flatus on 31 May, 2021, 10:11:53 pm
Post by: yoav on 29 June, 2021, 09:15:42 pm
23:50, Tweed Valley, it’s midge central and I get a front wheel puncture. It takes me 10 minutes to change the tube in the pitch blackness. As I’m fighting off the little blighters, I keep thinking this wouldn’t have happened if I had tubeless tyres.
Later at home, I see that the inner tube has a tiny puncture in it. Guess what kind of tyres I’m going to buy for this bike.
Post by: BrianI on 29 June, 2021, 09:47:58 pm
It’s June 26th. I’m on the Ride to the Sun (Carlisle to Edinburgh night ride for those unfamiliar with it), I’m riding my carbon road bike which has tubeless ready wheels but came with tubed tyres which I have left as they are (because I’m too lazy).Durano plus?
23:50, Tweed Valley, it’s midge central and I get a front wheel puncture. It takes me 10 minutes to change the tube in the pitch blackness. As I’m fighting off the little blighters, I keep thinking this wouldn’t have happened if I had tubeless tyres.
Later at home, I see that the inner tube has a tiny puncture in it. Guess what kind of tyres I’m going to buy for this bike.
Post by: yoav on 30 June, 2021, 09:13:25 am
Post by: Hot Flatus on 30 June, 2021, 11:39:46 am
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 30 June, 2021, 01:07:28 pm
Hutchinson Fusion 5 all seasons, or if you want bombproof (but a bit skiddy at high pressures) Hutchinson SectorAgreed. The schwalbe tubeless have also not been a problem for me and are a bit more supple but the Hutchison sector are bombproof
Post by: bobb on 01 August, 2021, 11:52:33 am
Right. Today is T day!
Rims were obviously cleaned (isopropyl alcohol) and left to dry.
I used Schwalbe 23mm rim tape as per instructions. Fits perfectly.
I'm using Muc-Off valves (after reading good reviews)
Tyres went on nicely (Hutchinson Fusion 5 all seasons). They even went up with just a track pump with the appropriate noises as the bead seats.
Got them up to 80 psi. First one fine, so moved onto second wheel.
Had trouble getting that past about 40 psi before I could hear leaking air from the valve. The valves come with various rubber thingies for different rim well shapes, so I tried a different one. And then another one. Eventually got it to go up to 80psi without mad hissing from the valve.
So.... If I pump them both up to 80psi, after about 15 minutes, wheel one is down to about 60psi and wheel two (the problematic one) is right down to about 30. There is no audible leak. I'm assuming it's just slowly coming out at the valve/rim interface.
What to do? I haven't put any sealant in yet, as I thought the idea was that they should stay up without it? Or should I bung some sealant in?
I knew it was going too smoothly!
Post by: zigzag on 01 August, 2021, 12:08:00 pm
fwiw, i cut the valve hole in the tape using craft knife, hole being slightly smaller than the valve stem. if it is much smaller the tape will split and leak air, if it is larger it can leak too.
Post by: bobb on 01 August, 2021, 12:13:11 pm
I used a sharp bradawl to make the holes. I'll double check the tape hasn't split.
I guess I could also try the inner tubes overnight trick to make sure the tape is properly stuck down....
Post by: bobb on 01 August, 2021, 04:03:56 pm
The other tyre is fine. It's been up for several hours now with no pressure loss at all. I suppose I shouldn't complain at a 50% success rate...
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 01 August, 2021, 05:15:47 pm
Post by: TimC on 01 August, 2021, 05:37:53 pm
Post by: bobb on 01 August, 2021, 06:00:12 pm
If it is coming out of spoke holes then the tape has not stuck down. Did it have bubbles in it? Hi hess tens to make a pathway for air to escape. Also did it really adhere into the rebate at each side where the tyre sits. Again if it has a raised edge air will work it’s way out.
I was aware that there should be no bubbles, so I really went town on making sure there wasn't. So much so, my fingers are now in agony! As you say, I suspect it wasn't stuck down properly, so hopefully the tube that's now in place might help that. I'll try again in the morning.
Weird that the other wheel is fine - I used exactly the same technique on that one...
Post by: Hot Flatus on 01 August, 2021, 08:46:52 pm
Check pressure in morning, adjust to desired pressure(25mm 90-100psi) then ride. As per TimC riding improves seal
Post by: bobb on 01 August, 2021, 09:00:19 pm
Tyre off. Wipe sidewalls with water and fairy liquid solution (doesn't need to be strong). Mount tyres. Rotate valves to 3 o clock. Add sealant through valve. Inflate to 110psi. Rotate wheel in all directions to splash sealant all around. Leave for a bit then Rotate again.
Check pressure in morning, adjust to desired pressure(25mm 90-100psi) then ride. As per TimC riding improves seal
Cheers, will try that tomorrow.
Just checked the first wheel and it's still not lost any pressure, so that's all good. Can't be bothered to do any more on the one not playing ball tonight - my fingers are too sore!
Post by: bobb on 02 August, 2021, 09:57:56 am
Will bung in sealant later and go for a spin.
Cheers for all the advice on here - without it, I think I may have given up! :)
Post by: bobb on 02 August, 2021, 05:37:11 pm
Right.... I'll stop wittering on now...
Post by: Hot Flatus on 02 August, 2021, 07:27:25 pm
Post by: Christophe on 03 August, 2021, 11:09:10 am
I've been riding a set of tyres for a few months with tubes in. They were close to the max size for my mudguards but no problems.
Decided to set them up tubeless and now they are rubbing on the mudguards, especially when out of the saddle and swaying side to side.
Any toughts? Cheers
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 03 August, 2021, 11:20:31 am
Post by: giropaul on 08 August, 2021, 10:18:33 pm
The most common issue - tubeless tyres by far.
An interesting observation.
Post by: bobb on 08 August, 2021, 10:27:29 pm
I’ve just been exchanging messages with a friend who provides neutral service at big triathlon events across Europe and beyond.
The most common issue - tubeless tyres by far.
An interesting observation.
Surely the most common problem any cyclist faces whilst out on the road is tyre related?
Post by: giropaul on 09 August, 2021, 07:47:34 am
I’ve just been exchanging messages with a friend who provides neutral service at big triathlon events across Europe and beyond.
The most common issue - tubeless tyres by far.
An interesting observation.
Surely the most common problem any cyclist faces whilst out on the road is tyre related?
True, but he’s specifically commenting on issues about, typically, tubeless seating, or leaking.
A lot are pre-event, competitors getting their bike ready to “ rack” and discovering problems. Most issues, to be fair, are user error.
Post by: perpetual dan on 09 August, 2021, 08:35:17 am
Post by: Hot Flatus on 09 August, 2021, 09:06:01 am
That is fine for many things but not tubeless. I think they save time and effort overall, but there is a learning curve, and they probably should be avoided if you aren't prepared to learn to manage their pecadilloes.
Post by: zigzag on 09 August, 2021, 09:37:34 am
Post by: De Sisti on 09 August, 2021, 10:17:14 am
i know an olympic cyclist who cannot fix flat tyre.Without naming names this cannot be true. :P
Post by: fd3 on 09 August, 2021, 10:40:38 am
Without wanting to show the usual prejudice, triathletes not knowing how to cycle/sort their bike out. I am immensely surprised.
Post by: bobb on 09 August, 2021, 11:12:37 am
bobb, did you fit a tube first?
On the first wheel I didn't - it went up and stayed up straight away. The second wheel (you would have thought I would have the knack after the first!) didn't and was pissing air out around the spokes. So I put a tube in and left it overnight. After tube removal, it went up and stayed up.
It's been a week now and I've ridden it most days (including a 200 in the pissing rain on Saturday) and have had no problems. They don't seem to lose any pressure overnight (maybe the odd psi or two) and I'm very happy so far. *touches lots of wooden things*
Post by: grams on 09 August, 2021, 11:17:39 am
That seems weird to me - if you’ve got as far as race day presumably you’ve had a chance to iron out most of the user error in training. Are people fitting something fresh and special (different) for race day?
A lot of triathletes come from the running and/or swimming world and the bike is an afterthought that receives zero care or maintenance. It'll often be borrowed or barely have been ridden.
Which is one of the reasons they're thought of so poorly by bike shops / "proper" cyclists.
Post by: perpetual dan on 09 August, 2021, 07:08:33 pm
Post by: fd3 on 13 August, 2021, 12:08:15 am
Post by: bobb on 27 August, 2021, 06:16:09 pm
(https://zaribor.co.uk/raz/pics/tubeless/hole_s.jpg) (https://zaribor.co.uk/raz/pics/tubeless/hole_l.jpg)
So I pumped it up but it wouldn't hold full pressure, so I left it for an hour or so. I came back to it and pumped it up again and it would seem to be holding full pressure now. Result!
I'll see how it is tomorrow. I'm a bit nervous about it though and wonder if I should repair it? I bought the Dynaplug racer thingy, but that seems a bit extreme for such a small hole. What about the repair patches you can use on the inside of the tyre such as the Hutchinson Rep'air (https://cycling.hutchinson.com/accessories/others/repair/repair-road-tubeless/)? There are others (and they mostly all get mixed reviews) so are they worth it?
Post by: Hot Flatus on 27 August, 2021, 06:25:37 pm
Post by: bobb on 27 August, 2021, 06:28:27 pm
Just carry the dynaplug with you. Don't use it unless you need to. The internal patches are good as long as inner surface of tyre isn't shiny...but its a faff and the whole point of TL is to avoid faff. If it were me, I'd see how it was, and if it didn't hold pressure I'd plug it
OK, cheers! I'll give it a go tomorrow...
Post by: bobb on 29 August, 2021, 12:09:09 pm
I guess now the emergency tube option is out as I've now got a plug with a pointy bit of metal in the tyre. I suppose if I did have to put a tube in, I could get a blade in there and cut off the tip first. Anyway, hopefully normal service will be resumed now....
..... and the whole point of TL is to avoid faff.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! :P
I know I'm still working my way along the learning curve, but the whole thing has been nothing but faff so far! But I'll persevere :)
Post by: zigzag on 30 August, 2021, 10:06:57 am
Post by: bobb on 03 October, 2021, 09:01:17 pm
I had started to notice evidence of p*nctures that had sealed themselves. The other week for example I did a 100 mile square bashing ride taking in all sorts of shitty farm tracks, fields and other places I wasn't meant to be. The next day there was a lot of sealant splurged inside both mudguards, so it was obviously doing its job.
Then yesterday, in appaling conditions they did their job admirably again. At the half way stop, when I remounted, I noticed two little pools of sealant that had dripped off the ends of both mudguards. Obvioulsy made to look much worse by all the zillions of gallons of water dropping out of the sky. But the tyres were still up to pressure.
After about 100 miles or so, in the now biblical rain, there was a sudden staccato psssht.... psssht.... psssht.... from the front tyre. Each time the wheel turned I could see a jet of sealant jizzing straight out of the tyre. I was just thinking "Oooooh shiiiiit!" when it suddenly stopped! Sealed up so fast I only got to about "Ooooh shi". That was a life safer as I think I would have rather topped myself than have to try and fix a flat in that weather with hands that weren't really workng properly.
When I got home, I checked the pressures. Both tyres started the day at 80 psi. After 158 miles of awful weather on often shitty lanes the front was at 75 and the rear 70. When cleaning the bike this morning, I noticed the rear tyre in particular is a bit of a state (1000+ miles on them now) with cuts and holes all over the place. But still it stays up!
Now as we near winter and the fixer comes out, it's time to get some new tubeless wheels built up for that...
Post by: Hot Flatus on 04 October, 2021, 07:40:33 am
Post by: BFC on 04 October, 2021, 12:38:17 pm
Now as we near winter and the fixer comes out, it's time to get some new tubeless wheels built up for that...
Spa have a decent range of tubeless rims again (in stock), and other stuff that's been unavailable for a while - looks like a long awaited container from the far east has been unloaded.
Post by: sojournermike on 04 October, 2021, 11:47:02 pm
Post by: IanDG on 07 October, 2021, 06:15:46 pm
i know an olympic cyclist who cannot fix flat tyre.Without naming names this cannot be true. :P
I can believe it. When helping a friend who provided bikes to a professional team in the 1980s I was amazed at the poor standard of maintenance from some top class riders. I had to do the repairs and sort out the problems before the race because the riders didn't have a clue.
There's also a few riders in my current club who will phone for a lift home if they puncture - I assume because they're not confident changing a tube.
Post by: sojournermike on 07 October, 2021, 07:09:10 pm
i know an olympic cyclist who cannot fix flat tyre.Without naming names this cannot be true. :P
I can believe it. When helping a friend who provided bikes to a professional team in the 1980s I was amazed at the poor standard of maintenance from some top class riders. I had to do the repairs and sort out the problems before the race because the riders didn't have a clue.
There's also a few riders in my current club who will phone for a lift home if they puncture - I assume because they're not confident changing a tube.
Ignoring Olympic/professional riders, I think this is part of a trend toward using services rather than diy. Those of us ‘of a certain age’ grew up being expected to learn and do stuff - plus it was often simpler. Now we have been educated to be afraid and carbon does need a torque wrench…
Post by: Lightning Phil on 09 October, 2021, 09:38:21 am
Post by: ElyDave on 09 October, 2021, 01:16:08 pm
Fixing punctures is as simple as it was when we were all kids. In fact if tubeless it can be simpler if you can find the puncture and plug it. No need to remove wheel from bike.
Which is actuallly a very good point on a recumbent, which tend to become unwieldy lumps when stationary.
Is there an easy way to tell if a set of rims are tubeless compatible?
Post by: BFC on 09 October, 2021, 05:57:17 pm
Tubeless ready have the extra micro ridges in the bed of the rim that retain the bead once it has been popped into place, and help stop the tyre bead dislodging during minor deflations. The general profile may help with getting the tyre to form an initial seal - this bit is highly debateable!Fixing punctures is as simple as it was when we were all kids. In fact if tubeless it can be simpler if you can find the puncture and plug it. No need to remove wheel from bike.
Which is actuallly a very good point on a recumbent, which tend to become unwieldy lumps when stationary.
Is there an easy way to tell if a set of rims are tubeless compatible?
These ridges are not the best friends of traditional (bulky) cloth rim tapes on non tubeless builds! Mainly a problem on assymetric rims, but some tyres could be a real problem.
Ghetto tubeless is another option for tubeless set ups on non tubeless rims, but does lack the bead retention feature during a deflation.
Thin polyester rim tapes tend to be used for full tubeless set up (best to seat the rim tape using a tube to pressure cure the low tack adhesive before injecting the sealant though, and a temperature cycle also helps in my experience - solar or 50yr old oil boiler shed powered depending on season).
Post by: sojournermike on 09 October, 2021, 06:11:55 pm
Tubeless ready have the extra micro ridges in the bed of the rim that retain the bead once it has been popped into place, and help stop the tyre bead dislodging during minor deflations. The general profile may help with getting the tyre to form an initial seal - this bit is highly debateable!Fixing punctures is as simple as it was when we were all kids. In fact if tubeless it can be simpler if you can find the puncture and plug it. No need to remove wheel from bike.
Which is actuallly a very good point on a recumbent, which tend to become unwieldy lumps when stationary.
Is there an easy way to tell if a set of rims are tubeless compatible?
These ridges are not the best friends of traditional (bulky) cloth rim tapes on non tubeless builds! Mainly a problem on assymetric rims, but some tyres could be a real problem.
Ghetto tubeless is another option for tubeless set ups on non tubeless rims, but does lack the bead retention feature during a deflation.
Thin polyester rim tapes tend to be used for full tubeless set up (best to seat the rim tape using a tube to pressure cure the low tack adhesive before injecting the sealant though, and a temperature cycle also helps in my experience - solar or 50yr old oil boiler shed powered depending on season).
I’ve done ghetto tubeless. I would avoid using non-tubeless rims because of the risk of not having suitable bead retention. The other way around I wouldn’t do it with a tyre that needs more than about 50psi - probably 32 or even 35mm. I have had a 32mm tyre leave a rim under pressure - fortunately before sealant as I was in the kitchen - and it’s pretty scary. The tyre was a Vittoria Hyper at 80psi and the beads were probably still wet from mounting. However, a salutary lesson!
Mike
Post by: ElyDave on 09 October, 2021, 07:51:53 pm
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 09 October, 2021, 07:53:18 pm