The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test

[Chris S]

Any story with a 3-dimesnional trans character (who doesn't get killed off) ought to pass the test by default, given how rare they are.

Mrs Doubtfire.

Tootsie.

[Kim]

Were either of those actually trans?


The only film I can think of is Boys Don't Cry, which I think fails the Bechdel test, and is only semi-fictional.

No doubt such things exist in books, but as I only seem able to read non-fiction, I haven't encountered any.

[HTFB]

Scene: interior, bar.

WOMAN1: "What do you think of that Bechdel Test, then?"
WOMAN2: "I'd date him"

[Steph]

Any story with a 3-dimesnional trans character (who doesn't get killed off) ought to pass the test by default, given how rare they are.

[crosses fingers  ]
Seriously, there is some good trans writing, without a killing-off. What there mostly is, however, is shite. There are certain tropes that are followed endlessly, some of which are:
All transwomen are necessarily small, slight, pretty. As soon as they slip into a frock they are the best-looking girl around.
As soon as a boy is forced into a dress, he feels an instant attraction to men.
All women of all sorts are obsessed with shopping, jewellery, hair, heels... the latter is more a reflection on male prejudices.

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

There are cross-dressers in the Marian Keyes book This Charming Man, but they're not trans.

[Steph]

There are actually several trans films, but I will say that crossdressers do form part of what is considered transgendered in the broad sense, because they do step outside conventional gender boundaries.

The film "Second Serve" with Vanessa Redgrave is a bio-pic of Renee Richards, a tennis player and former naval doctor. The main character is played by a woman (cheating)
"I Want What I Want" is a film based very loosely on a British novel, and once again cheats, starring Anne Heywood.
"Different for Girls" is one of my favourites, and is available on youtube. Another Brit film, the last to feature Ian Dury, and the main character Kim is actually played rather well by a man.

[Notsototalnewbie]

I quite liked Transamerica (though there was also cheating in that case as Felicity Huffman played the lead; she did a good job though).

[jsabine]

The Wasp Factory? Not trans as such, I grant you, but not exactly gender-normative.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I quite liked Transamerica (though there was also cheating in that case as Felicity Huffman played the lead; she did a good job though).

ditto

Tootsie and MrsDoubtfire aren't trans, they are about men cross-dressing.

[Jacomus]

What this piques in me is different. It makes me ask 'why do women have to be either a single, gritty and badass... or a doting/black widow wife?'

Gotcha!

What makes you think they are single?

Ripley is a mother. In sequels she has romantic/sexual attractions to other characters. Vasquez flirts with fellow marines.

These interactions are *secondary* to the character. That's why the films pass boab's test.

I meant it in general, though it counts for Alien too. Also, I am not denying that the film passes the fboab test.

I thought Ripley ended up on the first mission as punishment for getting pregnant and not having an abortion, no mention of her having a partner?

You don't need to be in a relationship to have sex/flirt etc.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I don't think so - she was 2nd-in-command and the run was to make money so she could spend time with her daughter.


Daughters think that the Harry Potter books pass the fboab test. Hermione, Professor McGonagil and Mrs Weasley are not defined by their relationship to men (Molly being defined by being a mother, but she is very definitely her own woman).

[Julian]

I quite liked Transamerica (though there was also cheating in that case as Felicity Huffman played the lead; she did a good job though).

ditto

Tootsie and MrsDoubtfire aren't trans, they are about men cross-dressing.

Transvestism is / can be included on the trans* spectrum.

Mrs Doubtfire was an excellent book.  What a pity that the film turned so heavily on the "but I'm a laaaaady" school of hilarity.

[clarion]

But neither Michael Dorsey/Dorothy Michaels nor Daniel Hillard/Mrs Doubtfire are actually transvestites by inclination, which is partly what leads to the 'ooh-err' hilarity.

[Kim]

Transvestism is / can be included on the trans* spectrum.

I'd suggest not when the motivation is to further one's acting career or violate a court-mandated custody agreement (eew?) or any other tenuous set-up for the sake of farce. Unless you're counting any gender-role-transgressive behaviour, in which case I'd suggest half forum probably qualifies.


(Correct me if I'm wrong.  I haven't seen Tootsie since I was small, and avoid Robin Williams films in general.)

[clarion]

I'd claim a TMN in another forum

[mcshroom]

Strangely, the more recent Bond Films might just pass this test, with characters such as M and quite a few of the (especially more modern) foreign agents.

Does 'The Queen' count? (or any of the many other films about Elizabeth I and Elizabeth II)?

There was a recent film about a certain british PM as well.

To Kill a Mockingbird also springs to mind.

[Kim]

The thing about the Bechdel test isn't the films that pass it - even in genres that are typically lacking in female characters - so much as the ones that fail it.  Alien was invoked purely as a punch-line for the comic, it isn't assigning any special merit to the film (though I'd argue that Ripley was a valuable 80s role model to people of all genders).

I'd suggest that exceptions can reasonably made for films that are set in an exclusively male environment (army, prisons, schools and the like), or are generally lacking in dialogue, have limitingly small (eg. two or less) numbers of characters or are predominantly about non-humans *who actually do gender differently*^[1].  But other than that, it's shocking how many 'normal' films manage to fail, purely because the female characters are 2-dimensional or are only seen talking to each other about men.


_{[1] Star Trek need not apply.}

[Steph]

Strangely, the more recent Bond Films might just pass this test, with characters such as M and quite a few of the (especially more modern) foreign agents.

Does 'The Queen' count? (or any of the many other films about Elizabeth I and Elizabeth II)?

There was a recent film about a certain british PM as well.

To Kill a Mockingbird also springs to mind.

ER I raises an interesting question on this, as one of the main issues of her life was her unmarried status. That issue, however, produced an awful lot of politicking and intrigue, so while it was originally about her relationships with men, it could be argued that it was actually all about her assertion of self.

[Exit Stage Left]

Surely the YACF Bechdel test would centre on how many of the cycling characters talk to each other about things other than cycling. Off hand I can think of 2012, with one of the main characters wrestling with a Brompton.
My own personal Bechdel test revolves around self-employed manual workers.

[Bledlow]

Lord of the Rings: FAIL.

Why? Doesn't Galadriel count?

No. She's Celaborn's wife.

I know, but her character is not defined by being his wife. She's badass in her own right and therefore passes your test.

I'm with Chris on this one; Celaborn is defined by being Galadriel's consort not the other way round.

Agreed. She's the one with the ring.

[mattc]

Surely the YACF Bechdel test would centre on how many of the cycling characters talk to each other about things other than cycling. Off hand I can think of 2012, with one of the main characters wrestling with a Brompton.

Hmmm, I like this ... Better still might be cyclists whose role isn't simply to be figures of fun. (The guy in 2012 certainly fails this!)

Flashdance passes.

[Bledlow]

Galadriel's ok. She's far more than Celeborn's wife, she's a ring-bearer. Arwen is nothing other than Aragorn's woman though. Eowyn at least gets some fighting in before she gets married.

That's it. That's all the female characters from Lord of the Rings, except for the giant murderous spider. Cheers, Tolkien. 

Not true. There's a serious lack of female characters, but those three are not the only ones.

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

Who are the other ones? Oh, the person Sam marries at the end of the end of the end of the last book. And Frodo's nasty relatives contain some women.

[andygates]

Middle Earth isn't entirely Sausagelandia, only when doing Things of Import.  The female Elves get their mythick on, but JRR's very much in a "war is man's work" mode. 

Mind you, you never can tell with Dwarves.  Does that mean they fail because of the "being a man with boobs" character stereotype though..?

As for sausageland films, Pacific Rim is a funny one - the female lead is a really solid character, the fandom are already squee'ing over her, Del Toro specifically wanted to avoid the Transformers sex-kitten or genderless-with-boobs types.  She keeps her (not stupid) clothes on! There's even a deliberate subversion/poke at male gaze so I humbly submit that the Bechdel test is like BMI: it indicates that this is worth looking, but isn't a sign of gender-wise quality on its own.

[Cudzoziemiec]

There are probably more children's books that pass this test. The Railway Children and the Swallows & Amazons series spring to mind.