Yet Another Cycling Forum

Random Musings => Miscellany => Where The Wild Things Are => Topic started by: citoyen on 05 July, 2017, 03:50:45 pm

Title: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: citoyen on 05 July, 2017, 03:50:45 pm
We've been discussing recently whether or not to have the dog neutered/castrated/call it what you will. He's now nearly eight months old and starting to show signs of sexual maturity, with an occasional inclination to humping but not totally out of control... yet.

I've never owned a dog before so I'm not at all knowledgeable about the pros and cons of having it done. I'd rather not have him go through any medical procedure that isn't entirely necessary, and I'm also wary that it's not necessarily going to cure any behavioural problems and the onus is very much on us as owners to ensure he learns how to behave through proper training (much like children, really). My wife, on the other hand, just assumed it was something you do (unless you intend to show the dog, or breed, of course) and was surprised that I questioned it.

So, dog owners, is it something you have done as a matter of routine? Any reasons for or against?

We'll ask the vet's advice as well, of course. They have previously said that they don't always consider it necessary, so I'm reassured that they won't just do it without good reason.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: L CC on 05 July, 2017, 05:14:10 pm
I wouldn't bother with a dog. Assuming you'll keep him under control.

I would with a bitch. They're vulnerable to other peoples' dogs' misbehaviour.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: numbnuts on 05 July, 2017, 05:17:18 pm
A question with a question “would you like it done”
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Aunt Maud on 05 July, 2017, 05:24:27 pm
^ This......


Mr Yellowman gets to keep his balls, as I wouldn't want mine lopped off, thank you.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 05 July, 2017, 05:35:24 pm
If you do cut a dog's balls off, does it get to sing in the cathedral or guard the sultan's harem?
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Auntie Helen on 05 July, 2017, 05:43:45 pm
A definite yes from me, makes him less distressed when a bitch is on heat and less inclined to hump things.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: bobb on 05 July, 2017, 06:09:40 pm
^ This......


Mr Yellowman gets to keep his balls, as I wouldn't want mine lopped off, thank you.

A bit of Anthropomorphism going on there. There is quite a difference between how a dog and a human would react to having their balls lopped off....
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Kim on 05 July, 2017, 06:15:08 pm
I'm pleased that http://www.neuticles.com/ still exists.  I could never work out if that site was real or not.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Eccentrica Gallumbits on 05 July, 2017, 07:09:10 pm
I would, but then I'm believed to be the kind of feminist who would advocate for the removal of all testicles.

http://pets.webmd.com/reasons-spay-neuter-pet
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Ruthie on 05 July, 2017, 07:20:09 pm
Save yourself a lot of trouble and lop 'em off.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: numbnuts on 05 July, 2017, 07:37:01 pm
Save yourself a lot of trouble and lop 'em off.
Yes, but what about the dog  ;D
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 05 July, 2017, 08:30:01 pm
I think all pets should be neutered. Hormones are a very powerful thing, so what Auntie Helen says, plus probably more examples.
It's not just about sex: http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/neuteringmaledogs
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Aunt Maud on 05 July, 2017, 08:32:26 pm
^ This......


Mr Yellowman gets to keep his balls, as I wouldn't want mine lopped off, thank you.

A bit of Anthropomorphism going on there. There is quite a difference between how a dog and a human would react to having their balls lopped off....

Really, you have direct access to the thoughts of a dog or are you just guessing?
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: L CC on 05 July, 2017, 08:46:57 pm
I've never had a dog that indulged in the behaviours that neutering is supposed to 'cure'. But then I've not been afraid to be a strict owner, choke chains, smacks, and punishing bad behaviour which seems out of fashion in these days of fur babies.
Cats are different. I'd neuter both genders of cat as soon as they're old enough.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Pingu on 05 July, 2017, 08:57:46 pm
Just do it.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Ruthie on 05 July, 2017, 09:01:44 pm
Our dog when I was a kid got to keep his balls, my dad being sentimental about these things. And if there was a bitch on heat in the neighbourhood he'd be off.

This was in the days of smacking slapping spanking and hitting with a dog lead - for dogs as well.

Just do it.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Hot Flatus on 05 July, 2017, 09:18:04 pm
It's only ever acceptable if you are prepared to eat his balls after the castration.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Wowbagger on 05 July, 2017, 09:20:07 pm
We didn't for Morphy. He's still got his 13-year-old bollocks. He has been no trouble at all with humping legs etc. and hardly any when out and about. He occasionally follows another dog, but that could be a bitch on heat/speyed bitch/ bollocked male/castrated male. He seems to have unpredictable tastes.

The only problem we had was one occasion when we wanted him looked after and the couple who were going to had a castrated male. For some reason, castrated males like to hump uncastrated males (or so I have been led to believe). This other dog wouldn't leave poor old Morph alone and in the end he didn't stay with them.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: citoyen on 05 July, 2017, 11:56:39 pm
A bit of Anthropomorphism going on there.

Quite.

I saw an episode of 'It's Me Or The Dog' where the owner refused to have his dog castrated because he felt it was emasculating him personally. Mental. Fortunately, I can safely say that I'm not so weak-minded as to regard the dog as a proxy for my own sexuality/masculinity. I have a great deal of affection for him, but he remains very much a dog, not a child.

My only concern is that I don't want him to undergo any medical procedure that isn't necessary/justifiable. It's clearly not medically necessary, so the question is whether the difference it would make to his behaviour is enough of a justification. And from what I've read, it's by no means guaranteed to 'cure' any behavioural problems, so the responsibility remains with me to ensure he is well trained and kept under control whether he is neutered or not.

I'm mostly inclined towards fboab's way of thinking, although Auntie Helen and Mrs Pingu make some good points. Some useful food for thought, thanks. Will also discuss it with the vet, obviously.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Jaded on 06 July, 2017, 07:32:25 am
You won't be able to sing 'Rocket Man' with your dog.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: JennyB on 06 July, 2017, 07:35:14 am
I'm pleased that http://www.neuticles.com/ still exists.  I could never work out if that site was real or not.

Neuticles - not the dog's bollocks.  ;D
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: citoyen on 06 July, 2017, 09:22:17 am
I'm pleased that http://www.neuticles.com/ still exists.  I could never work out if that site was real or not.

That's amazing.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Aunt Maud on 06 July, 2017, 12:32:40 pm
If you really have affection for your dog, you won't have his bollocks cut off in the vague hope that it will somehow make it behave as you want. If you can't train a dog properly without subjecting it to violence, then you shouldn't be the owner of a dog.

Perhaps a goldfish would be a better choice.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Basil on 06 July, 2017, 12:36:22 pm
Neutering a goldfgoldfish would be quite tricky, or at least fiddly,  I would imagine..
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: hellymedic on 06 July, 2017, 01:24:59 pm
I think fish testes are internal BICBW.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: citoyen on 06 July, 2017, 03:44:46 pm
If you really have affection for your dog, you won't have his bollocks cut off in the vague hope that it will somehow make it behave as you want.

That ought to be true even if you don't have affection for the animal. As already stated, I don't believe in carrying out unnecessary medical procedures - not on humans, nor on animals. That's an ethical stance.

However, I also think you shouldn't let sentimentality cloud the decision. If there are sound reasons for carrying out the operation, I won't have any qualms about having it done.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: citoyen on 06 July, 2017, 04:14:04 pm
I think all pets should be neutered. Hormones are a very powerful thing, so what Auntie Helen says, plus probably more examples.
It's not just about sex: http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/neuteringmaledogs

That's very useful, thanks. Interestingly, the sole reason they advocate for neutering is population control. They seem to regard all the other popular reasons for neutering as at best unproven/inadequately researched.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Kim on 06 July, 2017, 04:30:01 pm
If you really have affection for your dog, you won't have his bollocks cut off in the vague hope that it will somehow make it behave as you want.

That ought to be true even if you don't have affection for the animal. As already stated, I don't believe in carrying out unnecessary medical procedures - not on humans, nor on animals. That's an ethical stance.

However, I also think you shouldn't let sentimentality cloud the decision. If there are sound reasons for carrying out the operation, I won't have any qualms about having it done.

I'm inclined to agree with that, but 'sound reasons' is where the weaselling happens (see for example all the medical procedures performed on perfectly healthy humans "so they won't be bullied at school").

I reckon neutering cats is perfectly reasonable on the basis of population control alone.  You really can't control a cat, other than by keeping it indoors (and the practicality of that will vary massively), and cat sexual behaviour isn't conducive to being good pets.  Dogs are much more controllable, so with a sufficiently competent owner maybe it isn't necessary?  I can understand why those with experience of rescue animals would be strongly in favour of neutering, as there's ample evidence that many owners are insufficiently competent.

Semi-rhetorical question: If neutering doesn't really affect behaviour, why aren't they doing vasectomies instead?
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: L CC on 06 July, 2017, 04:32:15 pm
Semi-rhetorical question: If neutering doesn't really affect behaviour, why aren't they doing vasectomies instead?
Because it's quicker and easier to take the lot off.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Kim on 06 July, 2017, 04:38:22 pm
Semi-rhetorical question: If neutering doesn't really affect behaviour, why aren't they doing vasectomies instead?
Because it's quicker and easier to take the lot off.

Suspected as much.  That you can tell it's been done with a Mk 1 eyeball is obviously desirable, too (by the vets and rescue people, if not the owners).
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: T42 on 06 July, 2017, 04:59:58 pm
We had our labs done for fear of prostate cancer: one of them had recurrent piddling problems and the vet advised it.  Doing just one would have put him at a disadvantage wrt the other, so both lost their goolies.  Main behavioural difference is that they squat to pee and there are a lot fewer domination incidents.

I was very much against it beforehand and felt I'd betrayed them afterwards, but we have lost three dogs to cancer at ages ranging from 5 to 7 and we didn't want to go through it again.   It's a few years on now and really, they're perfectly happy, playful and healthy. No regrets.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Eccentrica Gallumbits on 06 July, 2017, 07:41:25 pm
Local vets seem to think neutering is better.

http://www.abercornvets.co.uk/pethealth.htm#neut

http://www.braidvet.co.uk/pet-advice/our-services/neutering/dog-neutering/

http://www.oaktreevet.co.uk/routine-procedures/castrating-your-dog/

ETA: I would suggest finding a vet you trust and discussing it.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: L CC on 06 July, 2017, 07:54:03 pm
I can't help feeling that people who earn from operations are more likely to think they're necessary. There's quite a lot of evidence that pay-per-op dentists put in more fillings, for example.
It's a bit like ER docs thinking helmets are worthwhile and policemen thinking there's crimes everywhere- if you only see dogs with behavioural issues / cyclists after accidents / victims reporting crimes, you may think those things are more common than they really are?

The other thing is, there's no rush. You can lop 'em at any time- if it turns out he is a runner (the only escapee I've had was my grandma's Border Terrier bitch who would leave for hours down rabbit warrens), or a humper, you can deal with that as and when it arises.

Anyway, where's feline? She's the pro on this.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 06 July, 2017, 08:10:28 pm
If you want some evidence based vet reviews:
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2016/11/evidence-update-neutering-and-cancer-risk-in-dogs/
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/04/benefits-and-risks-of-neutering-an-evidence-based-approach/
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Chris S on 06 July, 2017, 08:10:37 pm
... a humper, you can deal with that as and when it arises.

Hehe... I see what you did there :D
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Wowbagger on 07 July, 2017, 10:29:12 am
... a humper, you can deal with that as and when it arises.

Hehe... I see what you did there :D

Careful, Chris. Don't hold your manhood cheap...













just hold your manhood.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Eccentrica Gallumbits on 07 July, 2017, 12:51:28 pm
I can't help feeling that people who earn from operations are more likely to think they're necessary.
Maybe, but surely there are ethics about recommending unnecessary surgery.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: ian on 07 July, 2017, 09:35:21 pm
My childhood dentist performed unnecessary procedures to fund her enthusiasm for off-label pharmaceutical usage. I have enough mercury in my head that I could probably sell it as scrap metal. Whoever is charged with ensuring dentists behave too a dim view of her hobbies and funding mechanism. I've never trusted dentists ever since.

But she didn't, for the record, remove my testicles. I checked, they're still there. Unless she slipped a couple of mercury filled neuticles in there. Clacking those around would be cool. Newton balls would have nothing on mine.

I have no idea why I am in this thread. Lop them off, there's enough bollocks in the world. It's not like you can have a man-to-man talk with a dog. Or can you? I don't know. I've tried to explain enantiomers to my cats. All I can say is that they'd make shit chemists.

Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 07 July, 2017, 11:08:56 pm
<wonders how long it's been since she heard the word enantiomers, boggles, goes back to the gin>
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: ian on 08 July, 2017, 12:00:21 pm
Chirality, unavoidable if you're a biochemist. It was actually a very bad joke about cats failing to recognise their own reflection.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: nicknack on 08 July, 2017, 06:35:33 pm
If you keep a dog as a pet you've already accepted that it's fine to interfere with the biology of a formerly wild animal.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: bobb on 08 July, 2017, 06:46:36 pm
Domestic dogs aren't wild animals.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: TimO on 11 August, 2017, 09:18:50 pm
I only know about cats, but Kai didn't change his tendency to roam, when he was neutered.

It did either stop him spraying in the house, or he managed to do it without being noticed, and once neutered it's a lot less smelly, so wasn't obvious.  He did spray in the house twice before he was done, and it was hard work to remove the smell from the carpet.

As others have said, with cats, it's probably far more about population control, and I think it is likely Kai disappeared off to try and get his paw over with the local female cat population.  Whenever he's around the house, he'll have a good sniff at Zev's rear, which may just be a general "hello" sniff, or may be him checking out whether she's ready for his attention!

Aside from their general abilities to escape and wander around the local area, I think cats are also somewhat more profligate breeders than dogs, so neutering/spaying is a far more necessary requirement.

I'm afraid that if I had a male dog, I suspect that I likely would have him neutered.  Ultimately a pet dog isn't going to listen to us telling him he doesn't want to be a daddy, and even an accidental escape could result in some female dog finding herself pregnant, that would not otherwise happen.  We do massively impact upon the life that a dog lives, it's hard to consider that this particular behaviour by us is worse than other things that we'll do.  Allowed to roam the country, outside of our control, a dog may have a freer life, but it would also probably be much shorter, without access to modern veterinary care.  Swings and roundabouts.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Jakob on 24 August, 2017, 11:20:43 pm
Depends on a lot of things:
-Is he likely to get in contact with bitches in heat?
- Is he around other dogs? Dog parks?
- Does he hump stuff and/or mark a lot?

Yes to any of the above and I would chop'm off.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: citoyen on 13 June, 2018, 11:06:17 am
Well, he's gone in for the op today.

Lately, we've had a few incidents of aggression towards other dogs. I know that most behavioural problems can/should be resolved with training, and I am concerned that some of his occasionally unruly behaviour may be a reflection on our shortcomings as dog owners (he's generally very good but not always the most obedient). However, I'm also aware that some behaviours are purely hormonal and can't be trained out, and after discussing it with the vet, we've come to the decision that this is the best option.

We didn't feel any pressure from the vet to have it done and they did warn us that it isn't guaranteed to cure behavioural problems, so I didn't feel there was any element of salesmanship behind their advice.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: pcolbeck on 13 June, 2018, 12:14:16 pm
Not sure neutering will cure that one.

Our Tilly is nice as pie to 99% of dogs she meets but there is the occasional one that she just flies at teeth bared and snarling  (including two in our village unfortunately).  There are another two that elicit the same reaction only if she and they are on the lead but are best of friends off the lead. I can't work it out at all.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: LEE on 13 June, 2018, 12:28:23 pm
Domestic dogs aren't wild animals.

They are when you're trying to hack their balls off

"Wild?  I was absolutely furious"
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: citoyen on 13 June, 2018, 12:48:59 pm
Not sure neutering will cure that one.

True, it might not, but having discussed it at length with the vet, we decided it was worth doing and I'm happy that we're not doing it for the wrong reasons.

A lot of the advice given in this thread did help with the thought process, so thanks all for your input (and sorry if you don't agree with our decision).
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: pcolbeck on 13 June, 2018, 01:04:43 pm
Not sure neutering will cure that one.

True, it might not, but having discussed it at length with the vet, we decided it was worth doing and I'm happy that we're not doing it for the wrong reasons.

A lot of the advice given in this thread did help with the thought process, so thanks all for your input (and sorry if you don't agree with our decision).

Definitely the right thing to do for lots of reasons.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Eccentrica Gallumbits on 13 June, 2018, 01:07:34 pm
I can't help feeling that people who earn from operations are more likely to think they're necessary.
Maybe, but surely there are ethics about recommending unnecessary surgery.
Plus, I think most UK vets had no problem with declawing being made illegal.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Basil on 13 June, 2018, 05:58:11 pm
Not sure neutering will cure that one.

Our Tilly is nice as pie to 99% of dogs she meets but there is the occasional one that she just flies at teeth bared and snarling  (including two in our village unfortunately).  There are another two that elicit the same reaction only if she and they are on the lead but are best of friends off the lead. I can't work it out at all.

Megan, our Border Terrier, is the same.  Can be quite shouty at other dogs bitches when she's on the lead.  I wonder if it is because she feels more vulnerable when restricted thus.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: nobby on 13 June, 2018, 07:46:05 pm
I've had a couple of dogs neutered and left a couple over the years.
The only thing I have noticed with neutering is that the vet gets a little wealthier. Unless there is a health issue I'd leave them.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: rogerzilla on 13 June, 2018, 09:40:47 pm
Dogs smell better if they're neutered.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Jakob on 14 June, 2018, 01:14:16 am
Having seen male dogs *freak out* when there's a bitch in heat nearby, I wouldn't hesitate to do it.
We only went through one heat cycle with Hana and having to be paranoid with regards to intact males was not fun.
Ok, so our neighbours French bulldog, who was Hana's best friend, was fun, as he clearly had no idea how to react to his hormones.
Also saw one lady getting dragged half across the street by her rather large pitbull before she managed to get it under a resemblance of control.
Title: Re: Neutering a dog - yes or no?
Post by: Si S on 14 June, 2018, 08:57:20 am
I've had a couple of dogs neutered and left a couple over the years.
The only thing I have noticed with neutering is that the vet gets a little wealthier. Unless there is a health issue I'd leave them.

Hmm..the thing is speying can prevent health issues, Pip was recently off her food a bit after being in heat, then there was bit of lethargy followed by a discharge, rang vet suspecting pyometra, 6 hours later after an emergency full hysterectomy I was four figures poorer and she felt very sorry for herself

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/963/42121061941_b742a83fc8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27b6seT)



The only dog she tolerated when she was in season was an elderly Rottweiler called Mason who was too arthritic to get it on, you could see the frustration in the air.

She's fully recovered now, apart from the big bald bit.