Member survey

[Zed43]

  It's bad enough that we don't have enough BRM rides, without stepping even further away from how it works elsewhere.

Why do rides need to be BRM?

Well, they don't need to of course.

But I do wonder how many national audax organisations have their own variant of a brevet besides the BRM (I think Audax Australia has?) It does give a message of "we're so very special, what the rest of the world does doesn't apply to us". Maybe it's time for AUxit? 

Me, I prefer that the (long) rides I do count for the (Dutch) RRtY, SR and other awards. And wouldn't bother with substantial travel for "just" a BR. But that is just a personal peculiarity 

[Cudzoziemiec]

Mine has arrived. If I remember, I'll probably complete it at the weekend.

[Cudzoziemiec]

2.6b is a bit urrgh! "If you didn't complete any rides, why?" From context of previous question, that means "If you started any ride and didn't finish it" but if you paused the survey there and restarted next day, it would be easy to misinterpret.

[bhoot]

but if you paused the survey there and restarted next day...

With the tool we have used (it's free!) you can't stop part way through and then pick it up again. Sorry about that but we did check out other options and it wasn't worth paying for something in order to get marginal gains like that!

[Cudzoziemiec]

Okay! I guess I was just making assumptions from similar surveys I might have done before. Fully agree it's not worth paying for (in this survey).

[quixoticgeek]

Why do rides need to be BRM?

Well, they don't need to of course.

But I do wonder how many national audax organisations have their own variant of a brevet besides the BRM (I think Audax Australia has?) It does give a message of "we're so very special, what the rest of the world does doesn't apply to us". Maybe it's time for AUxit? 

Me, I prefer that the (long) rides I do count for the (Dutch) RRtY, SR and other awards. And wouldn't bother with substantial travel for "just" a BR. But that is just a personal peculiarity 

What zed43 said. One of the great things about Audax is being part of something bigger. I've done rides in Denmark, Netherlands, and Belgium. Those rides have taken me to Germany, and France as well. All of those rides are done as BRM, they are recognised as equal by the Audax associations in those countries, and around the world. They all count towards ACP awards, they all count towards the ISR award.

I know there are hysterical raisins for why AUK has BR as an option, but those reasons are largely non applicable now that it's all done electronically. The British exceptionalism that AUK seems to feel is annoying.

J

[bhoot]

Back on topic (!) we have now sent out all the mails with links to the survey for those members with an email address registered. So if you haven't had yours please first of all check your spam/junk mail - it's from membership@audax.uk. However it seems (from the out of office replies) that quite a few of you have a work email address registered and I guess some of you may not be able to access that right now. If so then you can either wait until you are reunited with a full inbox, or you can contact me to give an alternative email address - if you do this please quote your registered email address (for security reasons) and your membership number if possible (to make it easier for me to find your record) and indicate whether you want any switch to be permanent or just for this communication.

We have nearly 1500 replies so far - so many thanks to everyone for taking part.

[lmm]

I guess everyone will have their own views on everything, which makes the survey a very good idea. Personally I'm a huge fan of GPX routing but I do like the tactile brevet cards as a tangible souvenir, plus I like the self-reliance ethos of being able to pick your own route.

Would appreciate more BRM (didn't think to put that in the survey) mainly for consistency but also to work towards ACP awards. I'm pretty sure I saw a non-BRM Audax Japan event that I now can't find, and of course permanents are non-BRM (I assume AUK would cross-validate an AJ permanent?)

[bhoot]

Bit late now I know but someone said that they needed an "n/a" option for the various AUK services... there is a "Not used" option but it might be that if you were completing it on a phone you may not have seen that without scrolling (depending on screen size). Anyway for anyone yet to do it, that's the one to choose if you haven't used/needed that service.

[S2L]

plus I like the self-reliance ethos of being able to pick your own route.

In my world, the route you choose doesn't have to match 100% the supplied one, as long as you do the bits you are supposed to do (being those climbs or "control points") and you do the distance required, then it's all good.
It's actually better
I am not advocating for the removal of control points as a reference, it's just the way you prove you have gone through them that changes... so you can have more of them (maybe even up to 15-20 for very convoluted routes) and in places where you wouldn't be able to collect traditional POP.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Most larger national organisations have non-BRMs. AUK, RUSA and Audax Oz have the highest non-BRM percentage in their calendars but Audax Italia Randonneurs is another.

Don’t forget that all BPs and all SR600s are non-BRMs. ACP itself recognises non-BRMs in their awards. Apart from SR600s, some of ACP’s cumulative awards recognise Fleche de France perms. By definition, perms are not BRMs.

There are significant advantages for organisations and riders resulting from including non-BRMs in their mix of events, including non-BRM calendar brevets. The major advantages are probably allowing for significant over-distance routes without time penalties and flexibility in adding to the calendar at comparatively short notice.

[Cudzoziemiec]

And all DIYs are non-BRM. At least in the UK – do BRM DIYs even exist anywhere?

[quixoticgeek]

And all DIYs are non-BRM. At least in the UK – do BRM DIYs even exist anywhere?

Nope.

J

[S2L]

I understand some riders might like cards in events when they get to controls and cards are stamped and these remain as memories... but let's face it, if I look at my pile of 40 cards or so, there are maybe 5 or 6 which are stamped (National, BCM, LWL and a couple of others)... the others have been validated by receipts... so the card was just a piece of paper to carry in the back pocket for no particular reason other than reading what the bloody question was at the info control and write down the answer... I have no particular attachment to such cards and I only keep them because they don't take too much space

[quixoticgeek]

I understand some riders might like cards in events when they get to controls and cards are stamped and these remain as memories... but let's face it, if I look at my pile of 40 cards or so, there are maybe 5 or 6 which are stamped (National, BCM, LWL and a couple of others)... the others have been validated by receipts... so the card was just a piece of paper to carry in the back pocket for no particular reason other than reading what the bloody question was at the info control and write down the answer... I have no particular attachment to such cards and I only keep them because they don't take too much space

Round these parts when you get to the finish, they look at your receipts, then stamp the spots on the card for those controls.

Not every org does, but the majority do.

J

[bludger]

I left some feedback that it would be good to have some more events in the 'off season' of the year to decrease reliance on perms for RRTY. Obviously events are put on by voluntary organisers, not the central committee, but perhaps there are nudges the committee could do to support 'off season' calendar events (even if just x rated / barebones) such as subsidising costs to an extent or a special award to organisers making events in the 'dark months'. Or maybe permitting an organiser to run a perm route as a calendar event in a more streamlined way without needing to get it approved with so many hoops to jump through.

What does everyone else think?

[quixoticgeek]

Most larger national organisations have non-BRMs. AUK, RUSA and Audax Oz have the highest non-BRM percentage in their calendars but Audax Italia Randonneurs is another.

Don’t forget that all BPs and all SR600s are non-BRMs. ACP itself recognises non-BRMs in their awards. Apart from SR600s, some of ACP’s cumulative awards recognise Fleche de France perms. By definition, perms are not BRMs.

SR600's count towards ACP awards.

Some of the Fleche's count towards ACP awards.

There are significant advantages for organisations and riders resulting from including non-BRMs in their mix of events, including non-BRM calendar brevets. The major advantages are probably allowing for significant over-distance routes without time penalties and flexibility in adding to the calendar at comparatively short notice.

There are significant advantages to riders with BRM's too. We can plan ahead as we have the whole year calendar available for the whole world, we know they are going to be reasonably close to the set distance, and they are recognised everywhere.

Does AUK recognise an aussie non BRM ride?

J

[S2L]

I left some feedback that it would be good to have some more events in the 'off season' of the year to decrease reliance on perms for RRTY. Obviously events are put on by voluntary organisers, not the central committee, but perhaps there are nudges the committee could do to support 'off season' calendar events (even if just x rated / barebones) such as subsidising costs to an extent or a special award to organisers making events in the 'dark months'. Or maybe permitting an organiser to run a perm route as a calendar event in a more streamlined way without needing to get it approved with so many hoops to jump through.

What does everyone else think?

I have thought about organising a winter BP or maybe an early BR, but, while the demand is there, I can't be bothered to deal with the high chances of having to cancel or shorten or re-route a ride because of ice, storms, snow and whatever the winter weather throws... it's stressful enough having to cancel a summer event because of a pandemic... 

[Phil W]

This BRM thing seems to be centred on awards. If you just enjoy the rides and events for what they are and are not bothered about collecting awards, then BRM is mostly neither here nor there. The only time I ensure I’m riding a BRM is when I want to pre qualify and qualify for PBP.

[De Sisti]

I like riding audax events, but have no interest in collecting points.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

QG, all perms (DIY or not) are locally homologated, as are all calendar BPs and BRs (or local equivalents). Obviously they aren’t internationally recognised for awards. ACP recognises international SR600s but that is an exception (for the pedants).

I’ve ridden brevets in plenty of countries and personally like the ‘one world’ aspect of BRMs (and LRMs) but locally homologated brevets offer more flexibility. You can’t argue that there aren’t advantages to riders from having them. As long as there are ‘sufficient’ BRMs, I don’t see a problem with the rest of the calendar being BP/ BRs. There have been cases where LRM organisers of early season 1200s require qualifier SRs before longer BRMs are run in some countries. There usually isn’t a problem with substituting BR perms or calendar brevets. So lack of international recognition isn’t an absolute.

[S2L]

I like riding audax events, but have no interest in collecting points.

And that's the majority of riders who enter such events... don't care about points, don't care about validation or being within a 15 km/h rather than 14.3 km/h minimum speed... they just want to have a good day out on their bike with other like minded people.

Call it Audax, call it reliability ride, it doesn't really matter to most. Audax UK is a useful umbrella, that provides insurance and online entry facility to organisers at a very low cost, most of whom (and I include myself) really don't give a monkey about points or even validations... We try to do things right to stay under the umbrella, but that's it...

[telstarbox]

I left some feedback that it would be good to have some more events in the 'off season' of the year to decrease reliance on perms for RRTY. Obviously events are put on by voluntary organisers, not the central committee, but perhaps there are nudges the committee could do to support 'off season' calendar events (even if just x rated / barebones) such as subsidising costs to an extent or a special award to organisers making events in the 'dark months'. Or maybe permitting an organiser to run a perm route as a calendar event in a more streamlined way without needing to get it approved with so many hoops to jump through.

What does everyone else think?

Some of my cycling friends don't ride at all from about October to April (more fool them as winter riding is great!). I know Audaxers are made of harder stuff but you'd still be chasing a smaller pool of potential riders across the country. 

Looking at the current (suspended) season, there were 14 calendar events in December and 13 in January (of which about half were 200s) which seems a reasonable level of provision?

[quixoticgeek]

Some of my cycling friends don't ride at all from about October to April (more fool them as winter riding is great!). I know Audaxers are made of harder stuff but you'd still be chasing a smaller pool of potential riders across the country. 

Looking at the current (suspended) season, there were 14 calendar events in December and 13 in January (of which about half were 200s) which seems a reasonable level of provision?

I mentioned to a non audaxer that I was organising a 200k in March (now cancelled ), and their reaction was that it was a bit too early in the season for such distance. I don't understand that mentality.

I cycle through the winter, it just a question of having the right kit (see latest Arriveé for more info).

The Dutch organise a 200 on the last week of January. We had over 110 people ride it this year. Randonneurs Nederland has approximately 200 members.

J

[bludger]

Some of my cycling friends don't ride at all from about October to April (more fool them as winter riding is great!). I know Audaxers are made of harder stuff but you'd still be chasing a smaller pool of potential riders across the country. 

Counterpoint: could it be that people don't ride so much because there are fewer events?

"Winter" is pretty mild these days.

Looking at the current (suspended) season, there were 14 calendar events in December and 13 in January (of which about half were 200s) which seems a reasonable level of provision?

I found it pretty hard to do RRTY with calendar events. It's definitely better than nothing but it is still pretty difficult.