[LEL17] LEL Suggestions Box

[LittleWheelsandBig]

What, beer?

[Whitedown Man]

 

[hellymedic]

In a world where leftover yeast extract is a national dish ...

 
POTD!

[LMT]

Catering for vegans, even on a small scale is a minefield, as I found out when I help a party at home earlier this month.
I'm an obsessional ingredient reader and order from Sainsbury's online.
Chickpea patties were termed 'falafel' 'felafel' and 'falafels'; searching for 'felafel' would not give the 'falafel' they stocked.
One variety was gluten-free, vegan, Halal and Kosher.
The others were not...

Depends on the Vegan. I was happily happy with a mixture of jacket potatoes, beans, rice, pasta, dry cereal and bananas. Others may have more diverse tastes of course.

[Kim]

IME catering for vegans is best done by vegans.  Or at least someone with sufficient allergies/intolerances that they're used to paying proper attention to ingredients.

Failing that, providing at least some of the sort of food that doesn't have ingredients lists.

[phil d]

Wow.  There's so much useful input on this board that I'm almost sorry I won't be a controller in 2021!  Some of what I'm about to post is deliberately provocative (and, as I'm sure our provision at St Ives this year will testify to, not how I and Colin handled things this year).

Providing for vegetarians is relatively easy.  Veganism is greatly more difficult, and currently remains a significantly small minority (that's an observation, not a judgement).  While I am confident that all of the veggie food provided at St Ives was also suitable for vegans (and I know Colin put considerable effort into this), it is quite difficult to be absolutely certain, especially when it is not a vegan preparing the menu and thus familiar with the pitfalls.  So on an event like this I think that it is foolhardy for the Organisation to state that vegan food will be available throughout or for a vegan rider to rely on it.  To be honest, I find it difficult to believe that vegans think differently - there's too much at risk.

A similar argument could be made about other "extreme" dietary needs, such as gluten free and dairy free.  It seems slightly strange to call these extreme, but the fact is that to someone who is not susceptible to gluten, or dairy, it is quite difficult to be sufficiently on the ball to confidently cater for those that are.  I know that at St Ives the spread used on the bread was not dairy free (nor vegan), and we did not flag that up (it's only on reading this thread that I realised that).

While I have every sympathy with those who choose to, or even more so for those that have to, follow restricted diets, the responsibility has to rest with them, and at the end of the day they may have to eat somewhere other than the control.  As amateurs in the catering business it would be foolish to rely on volunteer caterers to provide such specialist diets.

Having said that, I sincerely hope that we did indeed manage to provide something suitable for every single rider through our doors at St Ives.  You may not have liked our selection, but hopefully it was edible!

[The French Tandem]

Some of what I'm about to post is deliberately provocative

I do not think that you are provocative. The main question, that nobody dares to ask, so I will do, is : does a volunteer-based event like LEL should cater for all specific dietary requirements?

My personal answer is no, but admittedly this is a highly controversial matter!

[LMT]

Wow.  There's so much useful input on this board that I'm almost sorry I won't be a controller in 2021!  Some of what I'm about to post is deliberately provocative (and, as I'm sure our provision at St Ives this year will testify to, not how I and Colin handled things this year).

Providing for vegetarians is relatively easy.  Veganism is greatly more difficult, and currently remains a significantly small minority (that's an observation, not a judgement).  While I am confident that all of the veggie food provided at St Ives was also suitable for vegans (and I know Colin put considerable effort into this), it is quite difficult to be absolutely certain, especially when it is not a vegan preparing the menu and thus familiar with the pitfalls.  So on an event like this I think that it is foolhardy for the Organisation to state that vegan food will be available throughout or for a vegan rider to rely on it.  To be honest, I find it difficult to believe that vegans think differently - there's too much at risk.

A similar argument could be made about other "extreme" dietary needs, such as gluten free and dairy free.  It seems slightly strange to call these extreme, but the fact is that to someone who is not susceptible to gluten, or dairy, it is quite difficult to be sufficiently on the ball to confidently cater for those that are.  I know that at St Ives the spread used on the bread was not dairy free (nor vegan), and we did not flag that up (it's only on reading this thread that I realised that).

While I have every sympathy with those who choose to, or even more so for those that have to, follow restricted diets, the responsibility has to rest with them, and at the end of the day they may have to eat somewhere other than the control.  As amateurs in the catering business it would be foolish to rely on volunteer caterers to provide such specialist diets.

Having said that, I sincerely hope that we did indeed manage to provide something suitable for every single rider through our doors at St Ives.  You may not have liked our selection, but hopefully it was edible!

''restricted'', ''extreme'', a bit ignorant/flippant imo.

With some insight it can be relatively easy to cater for vegans - you'd be surprised. What is taken to be good honest audax grub is vegan. Jacket potatoes with beans (no butter), rice, pasta, fruit, cereal, beans on toast (providing no butter on the toast which non dairy). My only gripe on the whole was lack of soy milk if I wanted some cereal if the control had it. I fully accept that I won't be able to eat everything at a control but to say that to cater for vegans is ''greatly more difficult'' as to supposedly not try is rubbish.

[CrinklyLion]

Pasta without a sauce is actually quite tricky to do on a catering scale, and pasta&tomato sauce starts getting thumbs downs from ppl a lot sooner than you might think.

I don't think it is difficult to provide _something_ vegan, but providing choices gets trickier.

I think there's a _lot_ to be said for easily identifiable food where the meat is clearly meat, gluten is glaringly obvious etc.  Like Kim says - food that doesn't need an ingredient list.

Trickiest person to feed the to encountered was dairy/gluten free, veggie, no soya, no beans. They got spuds (no marg) and fruit...

[jsabine]

''restricted'', ''extreme'', a bit ignorant/flippant imo.

With some insight it can be relatively easy to cater for vegans - you'd be surprised.
[ ... ]
to say that to cater for vegans is ''greatly more difficult'' as to supposedly not try is rubbish.

Did you actually read phil d's post? You're either replying to what you think he might have said, or you're deliberately setting up straw men.

He and the team at St Ives didn't "not try" to cater for vegans: he explicitly said he was confident that all the veggie food was also vegan, and has acknowledged the error made with the spread.

He says some diets are restricted because, er, they are.

He uses "extreme" in quotes, and then discusses the difficulty he sees in confidently identifying dairy or gluten content - 100% of the time - unless you're particularly attuned to it. (As someone whose brother is coeliac, so requires a gluten-free diet, and whose wife has a number of food allergies, some of which, while probably not life-threatening given prompt treatment, would quite likely put her in an ambulance under blue lights, I can confidently assert that many so-called food professionals don't have a clue about how to handle such dietary needs.)

I think he deserves an apology from you for calling him ignorant and flippant: his post seemed to me thoughtful and insightful about the difficulties of running a pop-up catering operation such as at a control.

[LMT]

''restricted'', ''extreme'', a bit ignorant/flippant imo.

With some insight it can be relatively easy to cater for vegans - you'd be surprised.
[ ... ]
to say that to cater for vegans is ''greatly more difficult'' as to supposedly not try is rubbish.

Did you actually read phil d's post? You're either replying to what you think he might have said, or you're deliberately setting up straw men.

He and the team at St Ives didn't "not try" to cater for vegans: he explicitly said he was confident that all the veggie food was also vegan, and has acknowledged the error made with the spread.

He says some diets are restricted because, er, they are.

He uses "extreme" in quotes, and then discusses the difficulty he sees in confidently identifying dairy or gluten content - 100% of the time - unless you're particularly attuned to it. (As someone whose brother is coeliac, so requires a gluten-free diet, and whose wife has a number of food allergies, some of which, while probably not life-threatening given prompt treatment, would quite likely put her in an ambulance under blue lights, I can confidently assert that many so-called food professionals don't have a clue about how to handle such dietary needs.)

I think he deserves an apology from you for calling him ignorant and flippant: his post seemed to me thoughtful and insightful about the difficulties of running a pop-up catering operation such as at a control.

A misconception that vegans are "...greatly more difficult" to cater for due to a "restrictive" and/or "extreme" diet. Basic plant based carbs that you would get at controls such as potatoes, beans, pasta, bread, fruit and dry cereal are all vegan.

[CrinklyLion]

Several people who actually worked at controls are telling you that it was more difficult to cater for vegan diets in the context of large scale pop-up catering on a 24/7 basis staffed largely by volunteers - who are largely not vegan. 

Perhaps you could accept that they experienced the other side of the serving spoons (and remember that all the controls aimed to have at least one vegan option available anyway) and are entitled to a view on the matter, and take more generalised arguments about veganism elsewhere?

[Exit Stage Left]

There could perhaps be an introduction to the various senses of humour to be encountered on LEL. I haven't lived in London over 25 years, so I wasn't up to speed with the biting sarcasm. I'm familiar with Yorkshire, so I get that, and Scotland too. I now live in a part of the world where Peter Kay would be a general guide, with added irony and understatement. The roots of a lot of that is Irish, so it's always a pleasure to share 'The Crack'.

Much of what British people say is the opposite of what they mean, and earnestness is the cardinal sin. God knows what some riders would have thought of some of the 'out of shot' comments. It's probably most confusing to those who have a good grasp of English, but have no awareness of the regional differences in the sense of humour.

[Kim]

A misconception that vegans are "...greatly more difficult" to cater for due to a "restrictive" and/or "extreme" diet. Basic plant based carbs that you would get at controls such as potatoes, beans, pasta, bread, fruit and dry cereal are all vegan.

Bread's a standard gotcha.  It's not uncommon for whey powder to sneak in there.  I'd want to check the ingredients on baked beans too (I know proper Heinz ones are fine, but cheaper brands might not be).

This is the sort of thing that doesn't occur to people without experience of what to check for.  Common sense only gets you so far.

[Lee Velo]

Surprisingly, the volunteer run catering had enough Vegan options, especially St Ives (I didn't even look for the spread)

Edinburgh with the cheese on pasta, Thirsk with no soya milk and quorn in the curry were 'professional caterers'.

As I said, I don't expect an abundance of choice and I was happy that I always had a choice, there were just a few incidents that let it down (mostly with the pro caterers). LEL isn't really a suitable route to say 'eat outside of the controls', especially if I've paid an entrance fee and been specifically asked if I'm vegan!

[Sio2111]

Hi Lee,

As the controller for Thirsk, I am sorry you were told that there was no soya milk. I suspect that this was a communication error (as I saw some myself in the fridge - however this was towards the end of the event so may have been bought after you had been through the control). It was certainly part of the catering brief.

 
 

[Lee Velo]

Hi Lee,

As the controller for Thirsk, I am sorry you were told that there was no soya milk. I suspect that this was a communication error (as I saw some myself in the fridge - however this was towards the end of the event so may have been bought after you had been through the control). It was certainly part of the catering brief.

 
 

In this lifestyle, I expect there to be none and am happy if there is. It was the chef at the servery who said there wasn't any and it was 0900ish on Monday, so no doubt it had been sorted later. I can live without corn flakes for a morning

[canaryboy]

I hope PhoenixJim is around to amplify this as he was controller at Spalding. We didn't have formal rotas, and it seemed to work exceptionally well. We seemed to fall into three loose teams - catering, beds, and everything else. We rotated tasks among ourselves and I didn't notice any obvious signs of stress or unhappiness.

I'd second this. I was at Spalding and as Mike says all was pretty much all sweetness and light among us volunteers. True, I was in the kitchen for the majority of my time there but on the occasions I did go for a wander onto something else my impression was that everyone was rubbing along together very nicely.

I doubt those controls that did have a formal rota fared any better than ours which was in the very capable hands of Jim and Caroline. They were happy for us all to ' go with the flow ' and it worked a treat.

Or maybe we were all such lovely people there was no chance of a fall out  ? ( lol )

[hellymedic]

Nice that Spalding worked well but I reckon people need to work within their capabilities for best results. Some people aren't cut out for some tasks and expecting them to do these is fair on nobody.
It's easy when everyone CAN do anything but...

[canaryboy]

Nice that Spalding worked well but I reckon people need to work within their capabilities for best results. Some people aren't cut out for some tasks and expecting them to do these is fair on nobody.
It's easy when everyone CAN do anything but...

I can see your point but I think having no set rota was precisely why Spalding worked so well. For the most part people just seemed to gravitate to whatever they felt most comfortable doing. When certain areas were struggling there always seemed to be someone willing to provide support just by being asked to help out.

I'm not trying to paint a perfect picture of how it was and clearly if there were areas that hadn't be covered by consensus then a more rigid structure would have been needed but as far as I'm aware that wasn't the case at Spalding.

As you quite rightly say some people aren't as capable as others for doing certain tasks but if ' round pegs for round holes ' can't be found to satisfy a rota there is always the likelihood that some volunteers will find themselves pressurised into it anyway.

I accept there's pros and cons for both the formal and informal approach but in our case as far as I could tell the latter kept everyone pretty happy.

[MikeFromLFE]

Nice that Spalding worked well but I reckon people need to work within their capabilities for best results. Some people aren't cut out for some tasks and expecting them to do these is fair on nobody.
It's easy when everyone CAN do anything but...

I didn't wish to imply that Spalding was perfect and the one true model, but as CanaryBoy said, it worked well for that group of people at that moment in time.
But rotas do lead to putting people outside their capabilities, where people who aren't cut out for certain tasks feel expected to perform beyond what they are capable of. This can lead to errors and problems, but it can be good for certain people in a properly supportive environments - I'm not sure a busy LEL control is conducive to structured personal growth.
I know I would have gone into meltdown if I'd been given any task involving catering/food (and, yes, I'd warned the controllers in advance about this problem in my head). As it was I was able to find tasks within my capabilities that I found enjoyable and (hopefully) useful.
Not having a fixed or formal rota worked - in this instance - to allow folk to work within their capabilities and do what they were able.


Tapatalk puts this signature here, not me!

[mattc]

If the controller asks people about stuff like that (and ideally sends out a draft rota) then that won't be a problem. (he/she will often know many of their staff, so that will help.)

I don't see that "Having a Rota" is automatically a road to forcing people to do things that they don't want to do

[CrinklyLion]

In Barney the main gates were a long way from the control and the larger dormitory was likewise somewhat distant. And the mobile signal was dreadful. At least a rota meant you knew when someone was due to relieve you when you were stranded at an outpost...

[alwyn]

One thing that has come out of the feedback is frustration with having to deal with different bed booking systems at controls. I'd never thought of this before as being a problem, but enough people have said it, quite independently of each other, for me to take it seriously.

[GPS]

What were the frustrations? We had a few issues at Moffat, but I think they due to shift changes & misunderstandings.

A standard system is a great idea.

Standardisation could also work for other aspects of running a control.