Rate my intervals

[simonp]

Here are graphs of a couple of interval training sessions I've done this week:



and



Am I doing anything wrong here?  In terms of how hard it felt psychologically to keep going, the 2x20 was far tougher.  But that may have not been helped by boozes on Saturday night (the session was on Monday evening).

When I drop down to around 50W in the rest periods, is that too low?  Am I pushing too hard in the 2x20?  188bpm is quite high!

[nmcgann]

On the 2x20 I'd say you took the 1st one too hard and the 2nd one too easy going by the slopes on the power. You should try and keep the power constant within the interval and the same for both intervals. The recovery between intervals can be as easy as you like.

The trick with 2x20s is not to push too hard in the 1st interval as this will compromise the 2nd, although it takes a bit of practice to learn to know what "too hard" is for you. I find that if I'm struggling a bit at the end of the 1st then the 2nd is going to be really nasty and I probably won't be able to do as much power.

You also don't need to do the 2x20s as maximal efforts to gain the benefit. The usual wisdom is around FTP in the 91% to 105% range.

On the 5x5 I'd say you aren't going hard enough to gain the benefit that this type of session usually targets (vo2 max adaptation). It's hard to work out where the 2x20s were averaging (210-215W??), but the 5m's didn't look harder and they definitely should be. Typically 6%-20% over FTP. Again, the power should be even throughout the interval and they should all be as similar power as possible. (I've started to do my own 4x5 with the first one at slightly lower power as it gives a good measure of how I'm feeling to know where to pitch the rest.)

You'll know when you get these right as they feel very hard and you'll probably start to get pretty close to MHR at the end of the last interval if you have aimed at the 20% over FTP target. I wouldn't try and push that hard until you get the feel for these though, it's easy (!) to really turn yourself inside-out with them to the point you won't be able to train for a couple of days.

In the 5x5 you will need a better warmup. I take 20 mins including a solid 6 mins of tempo and 3 mins at threshold/FTP.

I hope that helps!

Neil

[GruB]

Simon / Neil,
I have been waiting for a post like this.  Thank you both.
I do not have a power meter but I do have a nifty Polar CS400 that looks at cadence and heart rate.
Can either of you send me an interval programme you do so that I can replicate it so we can then compare the results?  I appreciate it will not be quite the same without the power data, but I trust your graphs also show cadence, speed, HR too?
I am just curious about my performance, that is all.

[mike]

pretty much the same reply as Neil. 

My 2 x 20s are at FTP + / - 5% and my shorter intervals at FTP + 15-20%.  I was told not to go absolutely flat out on the 4x4 because going anaerobic means you're not benefiting VO2 and it'll take longer to recover.  Same on the 2 x 20s, I was told I should be able (but not willing) to do a third if I absolutely had to.

this is the advice I got for the short intervals.

Warmup: Because of the intensity of these workouts, it is very important to be properly and fully warmed up. I suggest the following warmup:
15minutes going from 100watts to 250 through the time period
5minutes easy
3minute low resistance/high rpm ramp up- 1min@110rpm, 1min@120rpm, 30sec@130rpm and 30sec@140rpm (this all with low resistance)
5minutes easy
3minute high resistance ramp up- 1min @80% FTP, 1minute@90% FTP, 30sec@ 100% FTP and 30 seconds@ Vo2max
5minutes easy

Always finish the workout with a minimum of 10 minutes of cool-down too.

Very important:
When starting the Vo2 max efforts add a minute to each prescribed time interval and do the following:
30 seconds at Vo2max, 30 seconds at 70% of Vo2 max then start the interval.

Rest between sets can be as easy as you need.

Some links to big jpegs of recent sessions:
2 x 20
3 x 3 (I know, I know, it's only 3 minutes.. it's my first VO2 of the year and I was taking it easy!)

My max HR is about 190, I get up to about 175 in the 2 x 20s and 184 in the 3 x 3, the 3x3 is up a hill

[nmcgann]

pretty much the same reply as Neil. 

My 2 x 20s are at FTP + / - 5% and my shorter intervals at FTP + 15-20%.  I was told not to go absolutely flat out on the 4x4 because going anaerobic means you're not benefiting VO2 and it'll take longer to recover.  Same on the 2 x 20s, I was told I should be able (but not willing) to do a third if I absolutely had to.

You can't do a 4min interval anerobically - there is an anerobic component involved, but it is an aerobic exercise. The main problem going flat-out is that it is so hard to recover plus it makes them a real killer to do and extremely stressful mentally.

If you can do a 3rd 2x20 then they were probably at the lower end of the intensity range. I normally ask myself if I could have done another 5 mins on the intervals - if the answer is yes then they were probably about right (for me).

Neil

[simonp]

Thanks for the replies.

I think I could have gone significantly harder in the 5x5 but not in the 2x20 and indeed going a little easier may have been better.  Average power for the 2x20s were 213 and 202W.  I did go harder in the 5x5s but not by a huge amount and I felt at the end that I hadn't really been taxed.  Also the training stress scores for the 5x5 was a bit lower than for the 2x20.

Something to try in a day or two.

[simonp]

Simon / Neil,
I have been waiting for a post like this.  Thank you both.
I do not have a power meter but I do have a nifty Polar CS400 that looks at cadence and heart rate.
Can either of you send me an interval programme you do so that I can replicate it so we can then compare the results?  I appreciate it will not be quite the same without the power data, but I trust your graphs also show cadence, speed, HR too?
I am just curious about my performance, that is all.

Yep, got cadence speed, HR.  I kept it simple by just graphing power and HR in this case.  Cadence was around 90rpm.

The ones I am trying to do are the 2x20 and 5x5.  2x20 minutes at FTP and 5x5 for VO2max.  I had hoped to get some solid training over the winter, but my knee prevented it, so I'm only really getting going now.  In the 2x20 I have 10 minutes easy between, and in the 5x5 I have 3 minutes between.

FTP (Functional Threshold Power) is from what I've googled roughly the power you can sustain for an hour.  The 5x5 you should be going significantly harder.  In each case I've warmed up for 10 minutes beforehand, but Neil's comment about needing a longer warm-up for the 5x5s sounds right given that I felt the first 5 was actually pretty tough compared to the later ones - so that advice seems to be spot on.

[inc]

simonp, I would loved to have had a power meter on my training bike when I used to race, all that lovely data. However the fundamentals of training don't change, what are you trying to achieve with the intervals. Intervals are supposed to allow you to work at a load that you can't sustain for a longer period which will normally be above your AT or AKA FTP. They are normally done after a solid foundation of lower intensity higher volume training.They are supposed to put the icing on the cake.  Training at a specific level is improving a specific physiological function, this hasn't changed just the ability to see the exact workload not one derived from heart rate or perception. If I had a power meter I would use it to train using the well established and proven Peter Keen zones method where the power meter would be used to maintain a constant output over varying terrain without the delay a hrm gives to changing work load. Working at your FTP is hard work, I would try to plan those sessions into  something like a club 10 or 25 where the competition is more of an incentive. Sorry I cant be more help, I can't read the figures on your sheets but I would suggest that you need to first establish what you want from your training, then develop a plan, then stick to it for 6-8 weeks and see if you are getting the results you want. I used to have a undulating little loop just under six miles and would time myself around it and over time the laps got quicker.

[simonp]

simonp, I would loved to have had a power meter on my training bike when I used to race, all that lovely data. However the fundamentals of training don't change, what are you trying to achieve with the intervals. Intervals are supposed to allow you to work at a load that you can't sustain for a longer period which will normally be above your AT or AKA FTP. They are normally done after a solid foundation of lower intensity higher volume training.They are supposed to put the icing on the cake.  Training at a specific level is improving a specific physiological function, this hasn't changed just the ability to see the exact workload not one derived from heart rate or perception. If I had a power meter I would use it to train using the well established and proven Peter Keen zones method where the power meter would be used to maintain a constant output over varying terrain without the delay a hrm gives to changing work load. Working at your FTP is hard work, I would try to plan those sessions into  something like a club 10 or 25 where the competition is more of an incentive. Sorry I cant be more help, I can't read the figures on your sheets but I would suggest that you need to first establish what you want from your training, then develop a plan, then stick to it for 6-8 weeks and see if you are getting the results you want. I used to have a undulating little loop just under six miles and would time myself around it and over time the laps got quicker.

You should be able to read the figures if you view the images rather than looking at them on the page (menu over the image, view image.  If in Firefox it will then appear scaled to fit the window, if you then click on the image it zooms to 1:1).

The goal at the moment is the Fred Whitton Challenge in a month's time, my mileage is well down this year due to knee trouble (for which I've had physiotherapy), and also an unusually bad case of lurgy which wiped me out for the first 3 weeks of March.  Then LEL in July.  So I am trying to work on increasing the power I can sustain for long rides and being ready to do 112 very hilly miles.  I would have liked to have aimed for a faster time than last year (8h45 on the bike, 9h30 total) but my goal now is survival.    Last year I rode a 400k audax the weekend before, and a 600k audax the weekend after.  No such madness this year.

I've been going out and doing up to 3 hour rides in the past few weeks to rebuild base fitness.  Last year I had a lot of long rides (10x200k, 5x300, 1x400k, 3x600k) and I feel that endurance is coming back reasonably quickly.

[inc]

The goal at the moment is the Fred Whitton Challenge in a month's time, my mileage is well down this year due to knee trouble

 Then LEL in July.  So I am trying to work on increasing the power I can sustain for long rides and being ready to do 112 very hilly miles. 

I've been going out and doing up to 3 hour rides in the past few weeks to rebuild base fitness. 

In your position having just looked at the FWC route I would be more concerned that my knee is up to that amount of stress with all that climbing and not long before what I assume is your years main target the LEL.  I would just be focused on  developing my engine for the LEL with increasing time in the saddle, at the optimum pace (using your power meter) Most of this would be on your own or with Audaxs but the timetable needs to be to suit your training plan with just a couple of months to go.  Unless you have no other option I would forget intervals and turbo training. As I said in the last post find a little 5 mile circuit and do a time trial, without a hrm or power meter this is your benchmark. Have another go in a couple of weeks and you will be motivated by the improvement, you will know the training is working.

[GruB]

simonp,
How did you calculate your FTP?
What is your FTP?
I have changed my Polar to show HR% of max to help me with my zone management.

[inc]

simonp,
How did you calculate your FTP?
What is your FTP?
I have changed my Polar to show HR% of max to help me with my zone management.

Functional Threshold Power, it is basically your anaerobic threshold but when determined with a power meter gives a nice figure in Watts. It is individual, so knowing someone else's is not much help. FTP or AT was and still is determined by being the max power output you can maintain for an hour, so it works in just nice with a 25mile TT. You don't really need to establish what it is though to set training zones for use with a HRM, for that you just need an accurate max hr. and the zones are that figure minus a number of beats say 25-35 for level 2 which is the main endurance training zone. Most Polars can be set for zones but it is really important to initiate the physiological changes that you only train in in that zone which is where the power meter is a superior training tool as it allow you to maintain a load more accurately without the HR delay for undulating terrain. There are other ways for determining the zones, like % of max hr or the working range max - resting hr but the max - a set figure is generally used for more serious training.

[GruB]

Okay, understood.  I have 5 zones on my Polar and this has been calculated by it.  Which zone is my FTP zone.  I'm guessing it will be either 3 or 4? 
I have changed the HR display to % of max as that is more realistic and easier to monitor.  Also, I have a zonelock display so if I need to train in a zone that helps.

[simonp]

simonp,
How did you calculate your FTP?
What is your FTP?
I have changed my Polar to show HR% of max to help me with my zone management.

I've not done a specific hour test, so I'm basing it on hour long segments from longer rides, and I reckon it's around 180W-200W.

[simonp]

The goal at the moment is the Fred Whitton Challenge in a month's time, my mileage is well down this year due to knee trouble

 Then LEL in July.  So I am trying to work on increasing the power I can sustain for long rides and being ready to do 112 very hilly miles. 

I've been going out and doing up to 3 hour rides in the past few weeks to rebuild base fitness. 

In your position having just looked at the FWC route I would be more concerned that my knee is up to that amount of stress with all that climbing and not long before what I assume is your years main target the LEL.  I would just be focused on  developing my engine for the LEL with increasing time in the saddle, at the optimum pace (using your power meter) Most of this would be on your own or with Audaxs but the timetable needs to be to suit your training plan with just a couple of months to go.  Unless you have no other option I would forget intervals and turbo training. As I said in the last post find a little 5 mile circuit and do a time trial, without a hrm or power meter this is your benchmark. Have another go in a couple of weeks and you will be motivated by the improvement, you will know the training is working.

If my knee can't handle FWC then it's really not up to LEL either, I think.  FWC will stress it, but rather less so than ultra long distance stuff does, IME.

I think intervals are good at any level of fitness, from the reading I've been doing, and I found them very helpful last year.  From the reading (googling) I've done, interval training seems to offer far faster results than "traditional" endurance training.  It's not like I'm not going out and doing that as well though, I did 70 miles on Saturday.

[inc]

Okay, understood.  I have 5 zones on my Polar and this has been calculated by it.  Which zone is my FTP zone.  I'm guessing it will be either 3 or 4? 
I have changed the HR display to % of max as that is more realistic and easier to monitor.  Also, I have a zonelock display so if I need to train in a zone that helps.

If you have a look here www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Articles/Training in Zones.htm there is a good description of the zones and what each is trying to achieve, unfortunately he doesn't  say how to determine the zones without taking lactate blood samples but he does mention Peter Keen's zones which are here Heart Rate Training Level Calculator with more explanations on the link.

Getting an accurate max hr is important ( and difficult)

[inc]

If my knee can't handle FWC then it's really not up to LEL either, I think.  FWC will stress it, but rather less so than ultra long distance stuff does, IME.

I think intervals are good at any level of fitness, from the reading I've been doing, and I found them very helpful last year.  From the reading (googling) I've done, interval training seems to offer far faster results than "traditional" endurance training.  It's not like I'm not going out and doing that as well though, I did 70 miles on Saturday.

Only you know how your knee feels, so that will have to be your guide. As I said before interval training is normally used to allow you to train at high intensities at anaerobic levels for shorter duration, to train your body for anaerobic work. Endurance training is getting the body to process fuel at sub maximal levels and requires longer training periods. So yes you can use intervals for endurance work but why would you need to have break ( ie the interval)  since you are not working maximally. Coaches, power meters, hrm, there is a training industry out there looking for your money. Most of the websites seem to be dealing with short distance events either time trialling or triathlons not the likes of LEL. One thing that most agree on though is the specificity of training, you train for your event.

[Wendy]

As I said before interval training is normally used to allow you to train at high intensities at anaerobic levels for shorter duration, to train your body for anaerobic work.

Are you sure you don't want to change that statement?

[inc]

As I said before interval training is normally used to allow you to train at high intensities at anaerobic levels for shorter duration, to train your body for anaerobic work.

Are you sure you don't want to change that statement?

The only thing I can see that is slightly ambiguous is the shorter duration bit where I mean the work is broken into shorter duration sessions so you can handle the workload but the overall idea is that you do more work at the higher level than you could without the rest intervals. Is this what you meant?

[GruB]

I had a look at my zones and they are broken down the following way:

Zone1 = 50-59% of maximum
Zone2 = 60-69%
Zone3 = 70-79%
Zone4 = 80-89%
Zone5 = 90-100%

Today I did a 34 mile ride in 2 hours 7 mins, averaging 16 miles per hour or thereabouts. 
From my Polar - I spent 43% of the time in Zone2 and 41% in Zone3, Zone 4 had me for 7% with Zone1 the remainder.  This was my first ride in ages and I didn't push myself at all.

[inc]

I had a look at my zones and they are broken down the following way:

Zone1 = 50-59% of maximum
Zone2 = 60-69%
Zone3 = 70-79%
Zone4 = 80-89%
Zone5 = 90-100%

Today I did a 34 mile ride in 2 hours 7 mins, averaging 16 miles per hour or thereabouts. 
From my Polar - I spent 43% of the time in Zone2 and 41% in Zone3, Zone 4 had me for 7% with Zone1 the remainder.  This was my first ride in ages and I didn't push myself at all.

Ok so you now have some data, what does it mean, how can you improve your performance. I would say you have not yet determined your maximum heart rate 43+41+7 = 91 so you spent 9% of the ride above 90% of your maximum hr, at 26kph average where you say you did not push yourself I doubt it. If you read the links and understand what you are trying to achieve it is time well spent. That way every ride could be used to improve your performance but it requires an understanding of the principals and some time developing a plan designed for you. Despite all the new toys and gizmos training is just overload and recovery even the ancient Greeks knew about it. I would stick to four zones based on Peter Keen's programme. It was developed specifically for cycling initially with Boardman and since with British Cycling.It is very simple for endurance events like Audax most training would be done at level two 25-45 bpm below maxhr so for someone with a max of 175 that would be trying to ride for all the ride between 130 -150 bpm which is difficult and debilitating. As you get fitter you have to ride harder to stay in the zone which is why easy rides have to be planned in.

[GruB]

I had a look at my zones and they are broken down the following way:

Zone1 = 50-59% of maximum
Zone2 = 60-69%
Zone3 = 70-79%
Zone4 = 80-89%
Zone5 = 90-100%

Today I did a 34 mile ride in 2 hours 7 mins, averaging 16 miles per hour or thereabouts. 
From my Polar - I spent 43% of the time in Zone2 and 41% in Zone3, Zone 4 had me for 7% with Zone1 the remainder.  This was my first ride in ages and I didn't push myself at all.

Ok so you now have some data, what does it mean, how can you improve your performance. I would say you have not yet determined your maximum heart rate 43+41+7 = 91 so you spent 9% of the ride above 90% of your maximum hr, at 26kph average where you say you did not push yourself I doubt it. If you read the links and understand what you are trying to achieve it is time well spent. That way every ride could be used to improve your performance but it requires an understanding of the principals and some time developing a plan designed for you. Despite all the new toys and gizmos training is just overload and recovery even the ancient Greeks knew about it. I would stick to four zones based on Peter Keen's programme. It was developed specifically for cycling initially with Boardman and since with British Cycling.It is very simple for endurance events like Audax most training would be done at level two 25-45 bpm below maxhr so for someone with a max of 175 that would be trying to ride for all the ride between 130 -150 bpm which is difficult and debilitating. As you get fitter you have to ride harder to stay in the zone which is why easy rides have to be planned in.

Inc,
I have highlighted the area that contained the 9%.  I didn't go into Zone5 at all.  I hardly ever do.
Perhaps I need to try for my max again.  I did it initially using a hill with a maximum effort.  The figure I got was 186.  I then got into a sprint with a milk float on the flat and managed to get it to 187 before I nearly fell off.
Now I have my bpm zones established, I'll read that site again and figure out which zone I should be in.
I'll post back this evening.

[Wendy]

As I said before interval training is normally used to allow you to train at high intensities at anaerobic levels for shorter duration, to train your body for anaerobic work.

Are you sure you don't want to change that statement?

The only thing I can see that is slightly ambiguous is the shorter duration bit where I mean the work is broken into shorter duration sessions so you can handle the workload but the overall idea is that you do more work at the higher level than you could without the rest intervals. Is this what you meant?

How anaerobic are 5min and 20min intervals?

[Chris S]

My understanding is:

If you are anaerobic on 20m intervals, you are working too hard. You should be just below lactate threshold - think 30min TT pace.

5m intervals should be just anaerobic.

[mike]

5m intervals should be just anaerobic.

I'm pretty sure that's impossible, I dont think the body can work at 'anaerobic' levels for > about 45 seconds.

5 minute intervals are VO2 training - to encourage your body to make better use of the maximum VO2 capacity.  Going anaerobic during these five minutes does not help.  VO2s should be hard, but if an effort level of 10 is 'I'm going to blow up in about 30 seconds', then they should be at 8 or 9.

I think....