Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => The Dark Side => Topic started by: ElyDave on 17 June, 2016, 11:38:52 pm
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:)
Build progressing, slowly, too much work. Technical issues
Anyone fitted one of these seats before?
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Right,
handlebar furniture is on.
Brake calipers mounted (but rear disc brake wheel doesn't fit)
Cranks and BB mounted
Rear mech mounted
Seat mounted
Still to do
run cables
mount front mech (had the wrong attachment to start with, replacement not hear yet)
fettling brakes etc
bar tape and mirror
rear mudguard
get hold of a headrest.
mount seat cushion.
remaining issues
- rear wheel hub width
- boom too long
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Pictures!
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http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/dneilson01/slideshow/M5%20Build (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/dneilson01/slideshow/M5%20Build)
More to follow, but slowly as I'm in a very busy work period and away midweek for the next three weeks.
I think I've got the seat in the right place now (you may notice the wrongly positioned holeslightening of the seat)
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Can't see any photo of the seat specifically - ? Interesting to see the front derailleur post - looks to be very slim and braze-on-mech specific. Also, what cassette is that? I'd be interested to hear in due course how much it weighs. (Sorry to pester and apologies if you've provided all this gen elsewhere - just curious. )
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I couldn't get the seat photos to upload for some reason, will try again.
That's an 11-40 MTB cassette, I'll have a weight somewhere.
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http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/dneilson01/slideshow/M5%20Build (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/dneilson01/slideshow/M5%20Build)
More to follow, but slowly as I'm in a very busy work period and away midweek for the next three weeks.
I think I've got the seat in the right place now (you may notice the wrongly positioned holeslightening of the seat)
there should be no problem to spread and realign rear fork-dropouts by 5mm on such a frame. with a couple of tools you can easily do it yourself.
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What tools would it take?
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a >20cm long threaded rod (10mm diameter) with a few nuts and washers to spread it in a controlled manner*. then something like this to align the dropouts:
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PsU8IkkFaok/maxresdefault.jpg)
or more professionally with proper tools (http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/dropout-alignment)
*it would need to be spread out to ~150-160mm (a guess!) to prevent it springing back to 130mm
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That seems an unacceptable amount of faffage. How can the spacing be wrong? It should be either road or mtb hub spacing...
It's not made easy to get into recumbents is it?
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How far out is the rear dropout width? If the actual width is 132.5 mm, I'd suspect that it may be deliberate - there's a trend these days to do this in steel frames, on the grounds that a 130 mm OLN hub will slip in easily and the skewer will just pull the dropouts together, or the dropouts can just be sprung apart to accept a 135 mm hub without too much of a struggle. It's not an approach that appeals to me but I guess it makes one less option the manufacturer has to worry about!
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@ElyDave - I forgot to ask - where did you source those shortened cranks? Were they a purchase from a fellow YACF-er or did you get them done somewhere yourself? What length are they and are you going that route to avoid hard interference between tyre and crank or for gearing/knee sparing/biomechanical reasons?
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They are 130mm, the manufacturer was questioned as all the publicity shots show it disc brakes, but that is apparently deliberate. I can squeeze a 135mm wheel in there, but it's a right bugger
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They are 130mm, the manufacturer was questioned as all the publicity shots show it disc brakes, but that is apparently deliberate. I can squeeze a 135mm wheel in there, but it's a right bugger.
Gosh, that's very surprising, especially given the predominance as you say of disc models on the M5 webpage for the M-racer. Looks as though spreading the dropouts will be your best option.
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They are 130mm, the manufacturer was questioned as all the publicity shots show it disc brakes, but that is apparently deliberate. I can squeeze a 135mm wheel in there, but it's a right bugger
I've adapted a 135mm hub to 130mm spacing (removed a washer, ground down some of the other bits). However that was for some rim brakes and I'm not sure what would happen with disc brake positioning.
Would spreading the rear void the frame warranty? If I were you I'd be very leery of doing it on a new and very expensive frame. I'd try bodging the hub first.
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Looks as though spreading the dropouts will be your best option.
Unless you want to spring for a Chris King, or go searching for a Novatec, 130mm disc hubs are in very short supply. Not even Hope is doing them. I would look at modifying a hub first. But remember that on the left-hand side, the distance from the hub axle end to the face of the disc mount is fairly critical, so you might not be able to shave the requisite 2.5mm off that end.
And if you spread the frame, remember that it's not just the dropouts that you think about, because you need to ensure the disc mount is reasonably well aligned as well. I'd probably spread the frame to 132.5mm, not 135mm. My Lightning was built as 132.5mm and I can fit my Hope hub in there quite straightforwardly.
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Yes, the disc aspect complicates things. I'm really surprised by this, since I'd had the impression that M5s were pretty well thought out. My impression is that it's a design that's stood the test of time and is well regarded. I'm wondering if it's a case of the original design having been for caliper brakes on 130 mm OLN hubs and when the disc option came along, all they did was add the necessary caliper mounting tabs?
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Should have bought a CHR. :facepalm:
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I've already tried removing spacer on NDS of the wheel, but that gave other probs with disc alignment. May have another look at drive side, but couldn't see much opportunity there and no spacers. Was looking at a NOvatec hub, but that's 32H vs the current wheel being 36H, so options as I see it are (in no order of preference
1- cold setting
2 - revert to caliper braked rear
3- get new pair of wheels built up with novatec hubs, sell existing
4- sell rear wheel alone, get new rear wheel.
Perhaps I should start a referendum on it
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5: Take your nail gun on a weekend break to Middelburg.
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@ElyDave - a bit presumptious of me to opine when (a) it's not my bike and (b) I don't have it in front of me, but ... trying to imagine myself in your shoes, I think my first step would be to try and discuss it with Bram Moens - it's something which surely must have come up before and the very least I'd expect is some kind of feedback/advice as to how safe a homemade cold reset would be. I've not done it on a 'bent frame but I have done it on a standard 531 upright and it's pretty straightforward, along the lines Zigzag has set out. The M5 frame is a lot more beefy than a standard rear triangle though and I'd 'talk it through' with Bram first. But going to 135 mm at the back would be the optimum if it can be done, I'd say.
If getting it to 135 mm isn't a practical proposition by cold resetting, I'd say the next best option is to switch to a caliper rim brake and change the wheel. Going to 130 mm gives you the benefit of a 'normal' size of hub and standard brake. The rear brake on a 'bent, in my (admittedly limited) experience doesn't need to be super-powerful - I know I have to be careful not to grab a handful on my disc-braked Furai because it'll lock the rear and try to swap ends given half a chance.
I'm saying this of course, in ignorance of whatever componentry you've already got and it's easy to talk when it's not your budget :facepalm:
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Not speaking out of turn at all Pedro, there is far more experience of doing this out there than I have and it is all valuable. A conversation with Bram may be a good idea, when I can get the time to start it - work being very busy at the moment.
I'll get there.
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By e-mail, to paraphrase
It's no problem, you'll need to get it to 140-145 and it won't affect warranty.
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I am amazed that carbon stays can be re-set like that since the material is basically resin and fibre rather than crystalline. Is there a confirmation in the literature somewhere to confirm that works OK? Otherwise, I would be tempted to go for the rim brake option. The wheel will be slightly less strong having more dish at 130mm but there is a huge choice of hubs, rims, and complete wheels to choose from compared to the options with 135. I built my Encore with 135mm hubs (Schlitter provide shims to allow either width to be used) because they are less dished and that limits my options for lightweight hubs quite dramatically but I am still using rim brakes because they are lighter, cheaper and less faff - pros and cons all round.
Alf
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The frame in question is not carbon.
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I am amazed that carbon stays can be re-set like that since the material is basically resin and fibre rather than crystalline. Is there a confirmation in the literature somewhere to confirm that works OK? Otherwise, I would be tempted to go for the rim brake option. The wheel will be slightly less strong having more dish at 130mm but there is a huge choice of hubs, rims, and complete wheels to choose from compared to the options with 135. I built my Encore with 135mm hubs (Schlitter provide shims to allow either width to be used) because they are less dished and that limits my options for lightweight hubs quite dramatically but I am still using rim brakes because they are lighter, cheaper and less faff - pros and cons all round.
Alf
Bram say he's done it before. I went for the M5 Cr-Mo rather than CHR.
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Ah! Beg your pardon. I just jumped to conclusions seeing all that black on the frame. I suppose ChroMo would be fairly straightforward to re-set. Certainly looks like a carefully thought out method from ElyDave compared to the hold down with foot and heave (which I have never tried but seems to be advocated by some)
Good luck.
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I'll supply pictures when I get to that bit, probably towards the end.
Seat holes are now drilled in the right positions (this time ::-) ) but a little more needs to be taken off the front end before I drill to final diameters and fix the seat. I want a clear space between seat and frame to allow any flex.
All components now here, so I see seat positioning as a big step forward to being able to set boom length, fettle drive train and front brake before moving on to the rear end.
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Getting there. Having the seat position sorted was a very definite step forward psychologically and an enabler of many other things.
Over the weekend
- rear forks spread by a couple of mm, disc braked wheel now just difficult rather than impossible to fit
- brakes set up - may need a little tweaking
- gears set up and indexing OK
- chain line set up, just need a bit more chain tube to prevent the chain eating my leg.
Still to do
- final boom adjustment
- bar tape, seat tape,
- rear mudguard
- mirror
- bottle cages
- soure and fit headrest
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Getting there. Having the seat position sorted was a very definite step forward psychologically and an enabler of many other things.
Over the weekend
- rear forks spread by a couple of mm, disc braked wheel now just difficult rather than impossible to fit
- brakes set up - may need a little tweaking - DONE
- gears set up and indexing OK
- chain line set up, just need a bit more chain tube to prevent the chain eating my leg. - DONE
Still to do
- final boom adjustment - DONE
- bar tape, seat tape,
- rear mudguard -
- mirror
- bottle cages - DONE
- soure and fit headrest - Sourced, not fitted yet
I'm very tempted for a quick, incomplete test pootle
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Here it is.
No mirror yet so only a very tentative 500yard test ride. A few mods to the ride position, which will take some getting used to.
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa370/dneilson01/M5%20Build/P1010216_zpsuvpaceoe.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/dneilson01/media/M5%20Build/P1010216_zpsuvpaceoe.jpg.html)
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa370/dneilson01/M5%20Build/P1010215_zpskrmm7hkc.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/dneilson01/media/M5%20Build/P1010215_zpskrmm7hkc.jpg.html)
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa370/dneilson01/M5%20Build/P1010205_zps1unljxkw.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/dneilson01/media/M5%20Build/P1010205_zps1unljxkw.jpg.html)
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa370/dneilson01/M5%20Build/P1010203_zps5orsrxkf.jpg) (http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/dneilson01/media/M5%20Build/P1010203_zps5orsrxkf.jpg.html)
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Looks quick standing still.
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Very nice... :thumbsup:
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Looks good, I'd drop the chain and run it through an over/under idler. I think it'd look cleaner and you can get rid of the chain tubes.
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Looks good, I'd drop the chain and run it through an over/under idler. I think it'd look cleaner and you can get rid of the chain tubes.
The single idler, as you suggest is the standard config, but I deliberately added the second idler. Speaking to others, the chain line you suggest restricts the steering a lot due to clashes with the front wheel. You'd probably still want one length of chain tube though to manage interaction with the right leg.
I may end up with a 26" or 650 front wheel, and I need to redo the bar tape (had a brain wave on that while cooking breakfast this morning). I may also end up changing the chain line with experience.