Stealth cyclists - Deliveroo dressed in black at night

[meddyg]

Teeming with rain in Cardiff last night, gridlocked streets after rugby international.
Usual trail of modified electric bikes with assorted smartphone riders  unilluminated doing dangerous stuff.

Just watched the excellent Hannah Fry narrating the evolution of home delivery and then inspecting the UK Deliveroo
software in their swanky London skyscraper.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001fc80/the-secret-genius-of-modern-life-series-1-2-food-delivery-app

You'd think Deliveroo would have enough money to give their shift workers adequate lights ?
the food'll be hot but will the riders finish their shift unscathed ?
i mean folk who need this kinda work won't prioritise personal safety.
i wonder if anyone's taken it on board / Cycling UK other pressure group.

When did you last see the Police stopping a rider for 'no lights' ?

[Kim]

It does baffle me that anyone would ride an e-bike without lights, and delivery riders - at least the ones who aren't lit up like a space lemon - seem to be the prime offenders.  (Came across one the other day with only a rear light, which I thought was odd, possibly something had broken.)

But I vaguely recall a surprising lack of evidence for any safety benefit (at least in terms of collisions) from cycle lights.  I maintain that a decent front light is invaluable for avoiding potholes etc, but that's unlikely to show up in the stats, and note that the e-fatbike approach is probably at least as effective.  From my own experience, I can believe that bike lights don't do anything for the 'drivers not looking' problem.

[T42]

We don't see delivery cyclists around here, though we do have a decent quota of CBA-stealth cyclists.

From personal experience most e-bike riders seem to have their lights set to dazzle.

[phantasmagoriana]

A significant chunk of the delivery riders here seem to have switched to those Zoomo rental bikes. Whilst it hasn't improved their riding skills, one slight benefit is that they actually have built-in lights!

[Paul H]

You'd think Deliveroo would have enough money to give their shift workers adequate lights ?

They're self employed, it's the gig economy innit.  The delivery companies do put out rider information advising how to ride safe, but there's very little interest in anything other than getting the package delivered.  They've also teamed up with various E-bike suppliers, to offer finance or lease deals on bikes which will be better equipped.

i mean folk who need this kinda work won't prioritise personal safety.

What sort of folk are they
I'm quite keen on my own safety, can't speak for anyone else, I've been knocked off twice, the lights didn't help.

When did you last see the Police stopping a rider for 'no lights' ?

There was a bit of a campaign in Derby the winter before the pandemic, didn't make much difference. 
When did you last see the police routinely stopping car drivers for the sort of behaviour known to kill 100's a year?
I wonder how many traffic incidents there were in Cardiff last week, what % of them do you think were caused by unlit delivery riders?  Most gig deliveries are done by car, with the exception of a couple of major city centres, a bigger danger is likely to be those driving while dealing with something on the app.

[slowfen]

Most years, cambridge police do a session of stopping unlit cyclists, with the offer of “buy these lights, or have a fine”. The lights always used to cost less than the fine.

[T42]

Most years, cambridge police do a session of stopping unlit cyclists, with the offer of “buy these lights, or have a fine”. The lights always used to cost less than the fine.

I wonder if they ran that past a lawyer or two first.  "Police use coercion to sell bike lights."

[Paul H]

Most years, cambridge police do a session of stopping unlit cyclists, with the offer of “buy these lights, or have a fine”. The lights always used to cost less than the fine.

I've heard of other campaigns having something similar, except rather than buying from them you had to produce a receipt for lights, at a station or by email, within a specified time.

[Rod Marton]

You'd think Deliveroo would have enough money to give their shift workers adequate lights ?

I've always assumed that the logo represents a two fingered salute.

Generally confirmed by the riding of their couriers.

[HTFB]

Deliveroo riders on electric bikes have a front light but no rear light. I've spotted only one exception since I first noticed this habit a few weeks ago: very odd. The fashion doesn't seem to extend to those on acoustic bikes or other delivery companies.

[Cudzoziemiec]

This sort of small scale delivery business has been using zero hours contracts since long before the term was invented. It also has a culture of bravery/bravado on the road going back at least to the motorcycle courier boom of the late '80s and still alive today – see Emily Chappell's book for more recent examples – which quite likely in part derives from the ZHC, self-employed status and (largely self-proclaimed) road rat kingship of the operatives. All factors which argue against using lights. There are probably also local fashions, like using a front light but no rear, but comparing companies is difficult because many work for more than one.

[quixoticgeek]

When did you last see the Police stopping a rider for 'no lights' ?

Over here, every year in the autumn as the nights draw in, the police will do some big high profile stops on the main cycle routes in the city. Tends to increase the number of lit cyclists for a few weeks until the batteries die, or their lights fall off.

J

[The Family Cyclist]

I got stopped once about 14 years ago. Was probably marginal dusk, had popped round to tell one of my mates I'd got engaged. He's now happily married but was a bit pissed off that another of his friends was getting married while he was resolutely single

I remember thinking ill take the quicker route through town but saved no time as they made me walk my bike after threatening me with a fine which I did till I'd got to the bridleway I should have used to start with

[Lightning Phil]

I do wish people would not bang on about what people are wearing when riding a bike. The key thing is the lights on their bike when riding in the dark etc.

[perpetual dan]

In a city centre at night, with car headlights, shop widows, LED adverts, street lights and the whole lot reflected in the puddles i reckon a basic blinky light is going to be lost in the noise fairly fast. Or stolen off the bike while picking up a take away. Bold colours that looks like a person may well work better. So i reckon clothes can mitigate cheap lights with a low battery. Still needs drivers that look.


Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[mzjo]

When did you last see the Police stopping a rider for 'no lights' ?

Over here, every year in the autumn as the nights draw in, the police will do some big high profile stops on the main cycle routes in the city. Tends to increase the number of lit cyclists for a few weeks until the batteries die, or their lights fall off.

J

When my daughter was in uni at La Rochelle the police and the Sécurité Routière used to do a winter campaign stopping as many cyclists as they could to check their lighting. It wasn't based on stopping those who were ill-equipped, Phil was commended on her bike which was only missing wheel reflectors (I don't like the idea of things that can fall off in the spokes!) Most of the cycling population at La Rochelle appeared to have little or nothing at all!

[mzjo]

I do wish people would not bang on about what people are wearing when riding a bike. The key thing is the lights on their bike when riding in the dark etc.

In a city centre at night, with car headlights, shop widows, LED adverts, street lights and the whole lot reflected in the puddles i reckon a basic blinky light is going to be lost in the noise fairly fast. Or stolen off the bike while picking up a take away. Bold colours that looks like a person may well work better. So i reckon clothes can mitigate cheap lights with a low battery. Still needs drivers that look.


Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Now that my eldest grandson has started pre-school and his mum takes him by bike, just out of curiosity I asked her if motorists paid any more attention to the bike with a childseat on. The reply was " no, not at all - but wearing a helmet is definitely an excuse for paying less attention. If you are wearing hi-vis clothing on the other hand you are a target!" This is in Kidlington (north side of Oxford), other places may differ

[perpetual dan]

I don't genrally wear hi viz on the bike, more likely to be something red. I think the only overtly negative interactions I've had were triggered by the bicycle rather than clothes. But thankfully that's not a large sample.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Paul H]

Now that my eldest grandson has started pre-school and his mum takes him by bike, just out of curiosity I asked her if motorists paid any more attention to the bike with a childseat on. The reply was " no, not at all - but wearing a helmet is definitely an excuse for paying less attention. If you are wearing hi-vis clothing on the other hand you are a target!" This is in Kidlington (north side of Oxford), other places may differ

OTOH a deliveroo backpack can be a huge safety device, the expectation that the rider is reckless and unpredictable can have it's advantages.

[Kim]

OTOH a deliveroo backpack can be a huge safety device, the expectation that the rider is reckless and unpredictable can have it's advantages.

See also: 'Hump' rucksack covers.

[drossall]

It does baffle me that anyone would ride an e-bike without lights... But I vaguely recall a surprising lack of evidence for any safety benefit ... from cycle lights.

I'm inclined to agree with both points. The process of seeing a cyclist seems to be much more complex than many people imagine. It's not just a matter of lots of light, but of competing for the limited attention of another road user.

The best we seems to have to offer at present is for cyclists to use bright lights, whereupon cars get even brighter ones, so cyclists get told to get more visible still. It's just an arms race. I can't see cyclists ever being safe if we continue it. So a few deliberately-provocative thoughts. These are not advice to ride like this, but trying to feel a way to something better, and more effective, than ever more lights around the road:

• Visibility is like employability - it doesn't get you seen/employed, because it's not you doing the seeing/employing, but may be a good first step.
• High visibility is a relative term, because high is a comparative adjective. Once everyone gets it, it's just normal.
• If other road users are giving 100% of their attention to the road, as they should be, then the only way that you can get more noticed is to steal attention from someone else.
• Anything that makes you noticed may help, without making you more visible, because it grabs attention - unusual clothing, erratic riding (which has obvious risks from other perspectives), etc.
• It's certainly been argued that good lights can mean that you get seen in good time, which gives drivers time to move on to observing other hazards, and forget about you.
• In terms of explaining the confusing statistics that Kim mentioned, I'd even consider an argument that lack of lights can help, because it's so annoying that it means that you're going to get and keep other road users' attention, when normal lighting might have meant that you were forgotten.
• Like I guess most people here, I've also had the experience of finding a cyclist hard to spot in the confusion of lights that we get on modern roads.
• But the health and life expectancy benefits of cycling are so vast that you'd be daft to give it up because of worrying about this in most circumstances.

[quixoticgeek]

Often it's not the size of the light, or the brightness. But the movement. My bike light can pick out a set of pedal reflectors at quite a distance, which is often the easier way to pick out the bike in the background noise of lights.

I dislike hivis with a fiery passion, but I do like the mandated legal required reflectors on bikes, white at the front, red at the back, and orange on the pedals/sides.

J

[rogerzilla]

The white front one is only mandatory at point of sale (like wheel reflectors).  You can toss them as soon as you've paid.

[rogerzilla]

I do wish people would not bang on about what people are wearing when riding a bike. The key thing is the lights on their bike when riding in the dark etc.

Hi-viz (i.e. fluorescent) only works in natural light.  Reflectives are vaguely useful at night.  A legally lit cyclist, old 1980s Eveready Nightrider lights aside, is pretty conspicuous, though.

[quixoticgeek]

Hi-viz (i.e. fluorescent) only works in natural light.  Reflectives are vaguely useful at night.  A legally lit cyclist, old 1980s Eveready Nightrider lights aside, is pretty conspicuous, though.

Yep, which is why most hivis vests are some fluorescent fabric, and some reflective material.

A couple of years back I almost rode into a police horse. I only noticed them by the green power LED on their radio. They were in the dark, and above the angle of my Stvzo light, so it didn't out any reflectives, and the fluorescent bits did nothing as it was night.

J