DIY tolerances

[quixoticgeek]

What are the acceptable tolerances for distance when doing a DIY? I know that for Calendar events run to BRM rules you're allowed a certain percentage over/under the nominal distance. But I'm wondering if that works for DIY events. For example my first calendar event was 198km, but is considered a nominal 200. If I rode it as a DIY, would it be considered also as a nominal 200? (This count towards RRTY).

The related question is what if a planned route is 200km, but because of accuracy of GPS etc..., It becomes 199km when risen?

J

[Chris S]

* dons DIY Org hat *

I don't think I've ever denied validation for a ride that was a km or two under. I might make a jokey comment or suggest adding a few km if the rider is planning on riding that route again.

Generally speaking, we aim to validate rides whenever possible.

If a rider asks my opinion on a route, and it's (for example) 200.1km, I'd suggest they tweak it as there's a higher risk of it coming in short - but at the end of the day, it's just a game isn't it?

Of course, if a rider made a habit of it, I'd probably take a firmer line.

[Bikeabilityman]

He’s a good Org, that Chris. I used to enter advisory DIY google maps walking and would end up riding 130 miles, but now do mandatory closer to 125 miles/201 km. I was beginning to worry on Sunday as the new route looked like it might end up just under 200 km (I have a Garmin 500 and 520 and get different results) but I was ok.

Like Chris says, better to be over than under!

[tonyh]

* dons another DIY Org hat *

I agree with Chris on all those points.

(thanks Chris!)

[Ian H]

I wouldn't advise using Google walking.  You get better accuracy plotting by eye and dragging the line to suit.  Most people can judge a straight line.

[Feanor]

The related question is what if a planned route is 200km, but because of accuracy of GPS etc..., It becomes 199km when risen?

The distance recorded by your GPS is not the standard against which the distance is measured, so it really doesn't matter if it comes up short.
The distance is measured against the 'shortest distance between controls', determined by whatever method is currently being accepted as the standard.
All the GPS needs to do is to show that you passed through the controls.

Last time I looked, Google Maps on Walking was the accepted standard, but that may have changed.
If it has, I'd like to know what the current accepted standard is.
Or is it down to the individual DIY org to accept whatever routing website they favour?

[quixoticgeek]

The distance recorded by your GPS is not the standard against which the distance is measured, so it really doesn't matter if it comes up short.
The distance is measured against the 'shortest distance between controls', determined by whatever method is currently being accepted as the standard.
All the GPS needs to do is to show that you passed through the controls.

Last time I looked, Google Maps on Walking was the accepted standard, but that may have changed.
If it has, I'd like to know what the current accepted standard is.
Or is it down to the individual DIY org to accept whatever routing website they favour?

I thought that was the way it was done with "traditional" version. With Advisory route, or Mandatory route, then it was done based on the GPX. I certainly mail a GPX of my plan, and then a GPX of my ride to the organisor...


J

[Phil W]

The distance recorded by your GPS is not the standard against which the distance is measured, so it really doesn't matter if it comes up short.
The distance is measured against the 'shortest distance between controls', determined by whatever method is currently being accepted as the standard.
All the GPS needs to do is to show that you passed through the controls.

Last time I looked, Google Maps on Walking was the accepted standard, but that may have changed.
If it has, I'd like to know what the current accepted standard is.
Or is it down to the individual DIY org to accept whatever routing website they favour?

I thought that was the way it was done with "traditional" version. With Advisory route, or Mandatory route, then it was done based on the GPX. I certainly mail a GPX of my plan, and then a GPX of my ride to the organisor...


J

If you do advisory you do not send a GPX ahead of the event. If you do mandatory entry then you submit your planned GPX via the form you complete your entry on.  No need to email anything anywhere.

[quixoticgeek]

If you do advisory you do not send a GPX ahead of the event. If you do mandatory entry then you submit your planned GPX via the form you complete your entry on.  No need to email anything anywhere.

Surely you have to email the fox from your head unit once you've done the ride. How else is it submitted?

J

[grams]

To answer the other part of your original question, there's no *upper* limit on the length of your DIY route, so you can happily submit a 250 km route for a 200 km DIY. Of course if you DNF at 210 km you don't get validated, whereas if you'd submitted a 205 km route you would.

[Phil W]

If you do advisory you do not send a GPX ahead of the event. If you do mandatory entry then you submit your planned GPX via the form you complete your entry on.  No need to email anything anywhere.

Surely you have to email the fox from your head unit once you've done the ride. How else is it submitted?

J

I do not posses the ability to email foxes from my head.  Did you get the wireless brain implant on the NHS?

[Feanor]

The distance recorded by your GPS is not the standard against which the distance is measured, so it really doesn't matter if it comes up short.
The distance is measured against the 'shortest distance between controls', determined by whatever method is currently being accepted as the standard.
All the GPS needs to do is to show that you passed through the controls.

Last time I looked, Google Maps on Walking was the accepted standard, but that may have changed.
If it has, I'd like to know what the current accepted standard is.
Or is it down to the individual DIY org to accept whatever routing website they favour?

I thought that was the way it was done with "traditional" version. With Advisory route, or Mandatory route, then it was done based on the GPX. I certainly mail a GPX of my plan, and then a GPX of my ride to the organisor...


J

No, with both Advisory or Mandatory route options, the distance is that submitted in advance using whatever routing tool the org accepts.
In all cases, the actual distance recorded by the device is irrelevant, so long as it shows you have completed the route correctly.
The GPX serves one function only: to show you have completed the agreed route.  It is not the arbiter of distance.

The device can come up under-distance, but that's not the standard which applies.
The standard is what has been sumbitted beforehand, ( and agreed with the org, if necessary ).

[Pingu]

...Last time I looked, Google Maps on Walking was the accepted standard, but that may have changed.
If it has, I'd like to know what the current accepted standard is...

Me too.

[quixoticgeek]

If you do advisory you do not send a GPX ahead of the event. If you do mandatory entry then you submit your planned GPX via the form you complete your entry on.  No need to email anything anywhere.

Surely you have to email the fox from your head unit once you've done the ride. How else is it submitted?

J

I do not posses the ability to email foxes from my head.  Did you get the wireless brain implant on the NHS?

Fuxking auto correct on my phone. Email the gpx from your head unit. Is what I meant to say...

J

[Wycombewheeler]

I wouldn't advise using Google walking.  You get better accuracy plotting by eye and dragging the line to suit.  Most people can judge a straight line.

How do you know that is the shortest route between controls?

[Phil W]

If you do advisory you do not send a GPX ahead of the event. If you do mandatory entry then you submit your planned GPX via the form you complete your entry on.  No need to email anything anywhere.

Surely you have to email the fox from your head unit once you've done the ride. How else is it submitted?

J

I do not posses the ability to email foxes from my head.  Did you get the wireless brain implant on the NHS?

Fuxking auto correct on my phone. Email the gpx from your head unit. Is what I meant to say...

J

Ah yes, you email track after event if it is an advisory route. By head unit I presume you mean GPS? Never had a GPS with direct email connectivity. For mandatory you load it to the website using the link provided in the email the website sends when you entered. There is no emailing of GPX files before your ride.

[Ian H]

I wouldn't advise using Google walking.  You get better accuracy plotting by eye and dragging the line to suit.  Most people can judge a straight line.

How do you know that is the shortest route between controls?

See explanation you quoted, especially the bold.

[Paul H]

What are the acceptable tolerances for distance when doing a DIY? I know that for Calendar events run to BRM rules you're allowed a certain percentage over/under the nominal distance. But I'm wondering if that works for DIY events. For example my first calendar event was 198km, but is considered a nominal 200. If I rode it as a DIY, would it be considered also as a nominal 200? (This count towards RRTY).

The related question is what if a planned route is 200km, but because of accuracy of GPS etc..., It becomes 199km when risen?

J

I don't see the issue, it's a DIY so you can just add a bit to the route to be sure.  You're unlikely to be riding from/to the HQ anyway, so just include the bit from wherever you start, many of my DIYs start from train stations, even when they're based on a calendar event (With organisers consent)  DIYs are BR so adding a bit adds to the time, an extra 7km gets you an extra half an hour.

[quixoticgeek]

I don't see the issue, it's a DIY so you can just add a bit to the route to be sure.  You're unlikely to be riding from/to the HQ anyway, so just include the bit from wherever you start, many of my DIYs start from train stations, even when they're based on a calendar event (With organisers consent)  DIYs are BR so adding a bit adds to the time, an extra 7km gets you an extra half an hour.

Water tends to get in the way round here. For some routes I'd end up either having to put in a weird diversion somewhere, or once I got to my destination, go back up and down the road to make it work. Not everywhere is the UK.

J

[Paul H]

I don't see the issue, it's a DIY so you can just add a bit to the route to be sure.  You're unlikely to be riding from/to the HQ anyway, so just include the bit from wherever you start, many of my DIYs start from train stations, even when they're based on a calendar event (With organisers consent)  DIYs are BR so adding a bit adds to the time, an extra 7km gets you an extra half an hour.

Water tends to get in the way round here. For some routes I'd end up either having to put in a weird diversion somewhere, or once I got to my destination, go back up and down the road to make it work.

J

So, what's wrong with going up and down the road a bit?  Some of mine go round the block before getting to my front door.

Not everywhere is the UK.

Don't understand your point 

[quixoticgeek]

So, what's wrong with going up and down the road a bit?  Some of mine go round the block before getting to my front door.

Not everywhere is the UK.

Don't understand your point 

So how do you deal with that for controls in the advisory route?

I have to plan my routes to take into account an awful lot of water, with where I can cross them, or they are just a limit as I've hit the see.

J

[Phil W]

So, what's wrong with going up and down the road a bit?  Some of mine go round the block before getting to my front door.

Not everywhere is the UK.

Don't understand your point 

So how do you deal with that for controls in the advisory route?

I have to plan my routes to take into account an awful lot of water, with where I can cross them, or they are just a limit as I've hit the see.

J

Your controls do not determine the advisory route. In fact all you submit is the list of controls not any route you are planning. You can ride any route you like between them. So if you need to ride to a crossing for some water then ride back that is fine.  No different to any other country in the world.

[Paul H]

So, what's wrong with going up and down the road a bit?  Some of mine go round the block before getting to my front door.

Not everywhere is the UK.

Don't understand your point 

So how do you deal with that for controls in the advisory route?

I have to plan my routes to take into account an awful lot of water, with where I can cross them, or they are just a limit as I've hit the see.

J

Simply ride through the end control to one further along and back again.  I prefer to do it at the start rather than the end, there's nothing wrong with a DIY route heading off in the wrong direction.
There's also the option that your final control doesn't have to be the end of your ride,  if you end up with a longer route, just don't include all of it.  No different to a calendar event where you stop at the end then ride home or somewhere else.

[quixoticgeek]

Your controls do not determine the route.  You can ride any route you like between them. So if you need to ride to a crossing for some water then ride back that is fine.  No different to any other country in the world.

Then I clearly don't understand the purpose of the controls.

If my Ride is Buiksloterweg -> Groningen. Then if I don't put a control in the middle, there are 2 possible routes of 2 different lengths. So I add Zurich as my control in the middle. Only this is still only 190km, meaning it's not long enough to count as a 200km DIY. So now I need to add 1 more control to pull the distance out to 200.

Or have I completely missed the point of the controls?

Simply ride through the end control to one further along and back again.  I prefer to do it at the start rather than the end, there's nothing wrong with a DIY route heading off in the wrong direction.
There's also the option that your final control doesn't have to be the end of your ride,  if you end up with a longer route, just don't include all of it.  No different to a calendar event where you stop at the end then ride home or somewhere else.

That makes even less sense. 

Surely for a ride to count as a 200km DIY ride, it has to be 200km from the start control, via the intermediate control(s), to the final control. If not, I may as well set a start control at one end of my road, an intermediate at the other end, a final control round the corner, then just ride anywhere I like for the next 198km...

That doesn't seem to make any sense.

Can someone explain this to me?

J

[Phil W]

Your controls do not determine the route.  You can ride any route you like between them. So if you need to ride to a crossing for some water then ride back that is fine.  No different to any other country in the world.

Then I clearly don't understand the purpose of the controls.

If my Ride is Buiksloterweg -> Groningen. Then if I don't put a control in the middle, there are 2 possible routes of 2 different lengths. So I add Zurich as my control in the middle. Only this is still only 190km, meaning it's not long enough to count as a 200km DIY. So now I need to add 1 more control to pull the distance out to 200.

Or have I completely missed the point of the controls?

Simply ride through the end control to one further along and back again.  I prefer to do it at the start rather than the end, there's nothing wrong with a DIY route heading off in the wrong direction.
There's also the option that your final control doesn't have to be the end of your ride,  if you end up with a longer route, just don't include all of it.  No different to a calendar event where you stop at the end then ride home or somewhere else.

That makes even less sense. 

Surely for a ride to count as a 200km DIY ride, it has to be 200km from the start control, via the intermediate control(s), to the final control. If not, I may as well set a start control at one end of my road, an intermediate at the other end, a final control round the corner, then just ride anywhere I like for the next 198km...

That doesn't seem to make any sense.

Can someone explain this to me?

J

The controls  ensure that the minimum distance rules are met for the distance you attempting (for example 200,300).  Once the controls are set you can choose to ride whatever (advisory) route you like between them. So if you you want or need to ride up and down to cross some water you can.