Organising an Audax

[salar55]

Have about 7 Audax rides i might run again can i do this?
First do i need to go thro the induction etc again.
1 Make a sträva segment of route.
2 Make it a AAA event. Does away with my route is better
3 No gpx file will be unfair to the old school map and route sheet riders.
4 No need for controls as segment is a check.
5 Will trust the ones who don't upload to web ( easy to check with strava etc)
6 Always wondered why AUK never went down the chip on a velcro strap route, would be very cheap if they ordered thousands. Buy with membership renewal or a hire option.
7 Cheap and easy to run.
8 Route sheet handed out at start.

Used like turning up and getting a spare or DNS card .Great feeling just heading out and seeing what will happen.
Like the idea of an orienteering style Audax, no checking route out in advance.
Looking at a modern version of info and secret controls, always thought the route sheet should be followed.

[frankly frankie]

6 Always wondered why AUK never went down the chip on a velcro strap route, would be very cheap if they ordered thousands. Buy with membership renewal or a hire option.

I agree.  The readers are expensive of course but AUK could subsidise a few 'kits' that then would have to be carted round the country between weekends.   Hmm - I can see that lasting about 3 weeks ...

[Exit Stage Left]

The Mersey Roads 24 is a fine example of legacy tracking. It's all down to sheets of paper, filled in with biros. It would seem logical to put trackers on the big-hitters, so that the podium is easy to determine.

The advantage to the legacy methods is that it becomes a social occasion, a way of connecting with old friends. There's balance to be struck between the most 'efficient' organisation and the most sociable.

I always enjoyed the Newtonmore weekends.

[Delph Cyclist]

Have about 7 Audax rides i might run again can i do this?
First do i need to go thro the induction etc again.
1 Make a sträva segment of route.
2 Make it a AAA event. Does away with my route is better
3 No gpx file will be unfair to the old school map and route sheet riders.
4 No need for controls as segment is a check.
5 Will trust the ones who don't upload to web ( easy to check with strava etc)
6 Always wondered why AUK never went down the chip on a velcro strap route, would be very cheap if they ordered thousands. Buy with membership renewal or a hire option.
7 Cheap and easy to run.
8 Route sheet handed out at start.

Used like turning up and getting a spare or DNS card .Great feeling just heading out and seeing what will happen.
Like the idea of an orienteering style Audax, no checking route out in advance.
Looking at a modern version of info and secret controls, always thought the route sheet should be followed.

I'm not on Strava, and I suspect there might be lots like me.  I have noticed though that, with at least with some organisers, less importance is now put on a written route sheet than providing a GPX file.  This has the draw back that any hints that might be on a written route sheet are now missed.  As an example, on my Llanfair 400, there is a roundabout where pulling onto the cycle lane on the right saves a good 400 metres, but I can't indicate that on the GPX file.

I don't use GPX on the bike, as either a route guide and for recording my progress, which probably puts me in a minority.  I do like a GPX file before the ride however, as I can load it onto Bikehike or similar on my laptop at home so that I can see on the map where we're going.

Chips on bikes might be useful, but most riders seem to be recording their tracks on their Garmins (not me obviously!), so perhaps that box is already ticked.  And as Francis suggests, the logistics with a non-centralised organisation like Audax UK would make this very difficult.  And anyway, while I can see the benefits, to a Perm Organiser, of accepting proof of passage by GPX, a similar approach for a calendar event wouldn't work.  I can't help but imagine that reviewing a traditional Brevet Card is more time efficient than uploading and reviewing a GPX file or Strava link for each rider.  Which might tell you more about me and my shortcomings with online accessibility.  I'd be open to someone creating some software to do this onto a laptop without guaranteed internet connection at an event finish, but the time scale would have to be within just a few seconds.

I'm not trying to be negative, and it is useful to be open to new ideas, but the current system with Brevet Cards isn't broken.  Except it perhaps is.  My experience with newer and younger Audaxers is that they are far more comfortable with routing everything through their mobile devices (not-withstanding the battery issues) and they often can't be bothered with receipts and infos, so perhaps the current system isn't as unbroken as I think it is.

[mattc]

Have about 7 Audax rides i might run again can i do this?

How did they go when you ran them before? (presumably with the "old-fashioned" systems)

[LiamFitz]

I'm a fan of keeping it simple. The more complexity involved in running events the bigger disincentive there is to organisers and volunteers to give up their time for the benefit of the community.  If an organiser wants to lay on jacuzzi's and massages, good on them, but let's not making organising an event too much effort.

I hope you get your events off the ground!

Liam

[Ajax Bay]

Have about 7 Audax rides i might run again can i do this?
First do i need to go thro the induction etc again.
1 Make a sträva segment of route.
2 Make it a AAA event. Does away with my route is better
3 No gpx file will be unfair to the old school map and route sheet riders.
4 No need for controls as segment is a check.
5 Will trust the ones who don't upload to web ( easy to check with strava etc)
6 Always wondered why AUK never went down the chip on a velcro strap route, would be very cheap if they ordered thousands. Buy with membership renewal or a hire option.
7 Cheap and easy to run.
8 Route sheet handed out at start.

Used like turning up and getting a spare or DNS card .Great feeling just heading out and seeing what will happen.
Like the idea of an orienteering style Audax, no checking route out in advance.
Looking at a modern version of info and secret controls, always thought the route sheet should be followed.

Going to make the generous assumption you're semi-serious.
1 Make a sträva segment of route. Comment: This pushes every rider onto Strava. We should encourage diversity.
2 Make it a AAA event. Does away with my route is better. Comments: Choice of decently hilly route determines whether AAA. Has no bearing on riders' preparation to look at the route and consider options and take them. Implies you don't understand what AAA means (specifically what it doesn't).
3 No gpx file will be unfair to the old school map and route sheet riders. Comments: Just because riders prefer to ride with map and routesheet, doesn't mean that they will not appreciate a gpx. Have you ridden any of your 7 audax rides with map and routesheet btw? If not, do it for personal development.
4 No need for controls as segment is a check. Comment: What is the leeway (in terms of routing adherence/accuracy) for the Strava segment to be recorded as completed? What if you (the organiser) makes a small mistake on the Strava segment (cf the routesheet). Will noone be validated?
5 Will trust the ones who don't upload to web (easy to check with strava etc) Comment: Isn't the whole point of organised Audax UK rides to encourage long distance cycling together, at the same time providing external assurance that the distances have been ridden.
6 Always wondered why AUK never went down the chip on a velcro strap route, would be very cheap if they ordered thousands. Buy with membership renewal or a hire option. Chip (eg sportident or less capable systems) carried by the rider requires readers/control stations to be taken to, looked after at and retrieved from controls on or after the day. This would be a significant time and effort burden for the organiser/their team. All regular orienteers have personal Sportident 'dibbers': they are not expensive and if not possessed can be hired on the day. The issue is the physical positioning of the 'control stations' (small electronic boxes - size of an iPhone 5 but 4 times as thick).
7 Cheap and easy to run. Comment: How is the protocol you describe cheaper and easier? Easier for whom? We rely on volunteers to organise events and any revised system needs to be as easy or easier for them, unless revisions offer very significant advantages.
8 Route sheet handed out at start. Comment: the route should not be secret. If it is, I would expect a massive reduction in riders deciding to ride. Or is the idea that the Strava segment will be visible/advertised but with no routesheet available ahead of start venue?

[Kim]

I have noticed though that, with at least with some organisers, less importance is now put on a written route sheet than providing a GPX file.  This has the draw back that any hints that might be on a written route sheet are now missed.  As an example, on my Llanfair 400, there is a roundabout where pulling onto the cycle lane on the right saves a good 400 metres, but I can't indicate that on the GPX file.

Sure you can, just create a waypoint in the appropriate place with an abbreviated annotation (eg. "R onto CP") in the name field.

[LiamFitz]

Going to make the generous assumption you're semi-serious....

Implies you don't understand what AAA means (specifically what it doesn't).

Have you ridden any of your 7 audax rides with map and routesheet btw? If not, do it for personal development.

Comment: How is the protocol you describe cheaper and easier? Easier for whom? We rely on volunteers to organise events and any revised system needs to be as easy or easier for them, unless revisions offer very significant advantages.

For goodness sake give the guy a break. The bloke is thinking about putting on a few rides - he deserves positive encouragement and support.

[Ajax Bay]

I'm (too am) a fan of keeping it simple. . . .  let's not making organising an event too much effort.
I hope you enjoy organising your events and that you get plenty of entries.
Choose a good mentor.

[salar55]

Shortest distance between controls would not work unless i had a control at the top of most of the climbs. People used to follow the route but its easiest option now for some. Was told they have done away with secret/info controls .

[grams]

1. Strava is not especially reliable at matching long segments - it's not what it's designed for. One wrong turn (even if you back track) or GPS glitch can mean you won't match. I wouldn't be surprised if for an audax-length segment only a tiny fraction matched, or even none at all!

2. I've done various AAA events where there's been a person sat in a car at the top of the big hills to enforce them. If AAA points are important to your event then that's the way to go*. If the weather's hot they're also ideally placed to hand out water.

(* although are controls needed specifically to enforce AAA points?)

[JohnL]

.....Was told they have done away with secret/info controls .

Many (possibly most) rides have (sometimes many, but that’s another story) info controls, and whilst they are more unusual, secret controls still exist on some rides.

When did you last ride an Audax?

John

[Delph Cyclist]

Salar55, it's sometimes hard to answer questions without knowing who is asking them.  I have an idea I should know who you are, and therefore which events these might be and the sort of terrain they cover, but I'm struggling to make the connection.  Your level of prior experience probably has a relevance, and I've an idea I may well have ridden your events in which case there is a context to your queries.

Delph Cyclist is Mike Wigley by the way, in case you think I'm also hiding behind a pseudonym.

[Bobby]

Nice to hear thoughts about opening up Audax.

I personally like to look at a route beforehand, just to see how much of it is main-road bash vs small lanes, or big hills vs rolling terrain. 

I also tend to avoid rides with lots of infos - just don’t like them (WCW info - I spent 15mins trying to work out the colour of the door, it was past midnight & I wasn’t sure which house!)

I always strive to follow the route.  The main advantage of an Audax vs just riding my bike is the care and attention put in by the organisers to choose and refine a nice route - something I struggle to do using mapping software alone.  However, I always manage a few wrong turns getting back on route ASAP is fine but it would mean I don’t hit the Strava segment.  Auk DIY GPX analyser is great - I assume we could start using that for calendar validation in some form? 

When I do take a route sheet I like to print it myself (I can get the right size for my eyesight, and use waterproof paper to make it last in the British climate) 

My old gps needed special software installed to download the track afterwards, and then the different legs need stitching together - not something that makes on the line validation feasible (if that was your thought)

Finally, gps units do fail - I like the backup of getting receipts etc, that has saved 2 DIY by gps rides for me.  Also both LELs don’t have complete gpx tracklogs for example.

[Ajax Bay]

I also tend to avoid rides with lots of infos - just don’t like them (WCW info - I spent 15mins trying to work out the colour of the door, it was past midnight & I wasn’t sure which house!)

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=93338.50

[salar55]

Was thinking about some out of Dumbarton . Old 90ies stuff  Otter ferry 200 Awesome 300 and the 400.
Sitting locked up in a car for hours in midge season at the top of a hill is not on.
A phone will last all day so garmin ,phone and small battery pack would work.

ronnie

[Tomsk]

Lotsa infos is usually a sign the organiser has routed you away from unpleasant roads/busy towns etc, but I agree, they can get annoying, especially in the night - exactly that applies on my 'Hereward the Wake 300' for example. Should you 'forget' the info, some kind organisers might jog your memory at the arrivee...

[grams]

If you want to run these as AUK audax events you've first got to get the regulations changed to allow this form of validation.

If not, validation doesn't matter and you can run your event however you like.

(or option 3, make them work with traditional controls and brevet cards)

(or option 4, run them as group permanents with validation by GPS, which already exists in the regulations and is pretty close to what you're proposing)

[Revolution9]

Have about 7 Audax rides i might run again can i do this?
First do i need to go thro the induction etc again.
1 Make a sträva segment of route.
2 Make it a AAA event. Does away with my route is better
3 No gpx file will be unfair to the old school map and route sheet riders.
4 No need for controls as segment is a check.
5 Will trust the ones who don't upload to web ( easy to check with strava etc)
6 Always wondered why AUK never went down the chip on a velcro strap route, would be very cheap if they ordered thousands. Buy with membership renewal or a hire option.
7 Cheap and easy to run.
8 Route sheet handed out at start.

Used like turning up and getting a spare or DNS card .Great feeling just heading out and seeing what will happen.
Like the idea of an orienteering style Audax, no checking route out in advance.
Looking at a modern version of info and secret controls, always thought the route sheet should be followed.

No one travels to the West for events anyway 

[Bairn Again]

Have about 7 Audax rides i might run again can i do this?.....

No one travels to the West for events anyway 

Yup. 

Its had its day. 

It all started to go wrong when folk from Edinburgh started organising events there. 

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I also tend to avoid rides with lots of infos - just don’t like them (WCW info - I spent 15mins trying to work out the colour of the door, it was past midnight & I wasn’t sure which house!)

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=93338.50

Having ridden with a few colourblind cyclists this year I would avoid using any info that requires colour.  If I ever get around to organising the 200k I have up my sleeve, it will require 4 infos but that's primarily to stop cyclists from using those very annoying roads that allow them to bypass the gratuitous hills that preserve the unique character of the route.

[jsabine]

(or option 4, run them as group permanents with validation by GPS, which already exists in the regulations and is pretty close to what you're proposing)

Perm validation by GPS is fine and something we'd probably encourage more perm organisers to consider.

Group perms are also fine, but we wouldn't encourage people to view them as a means of running a disguised calendar event and circumventing the rules ... (If nothing else, it probably falls foul of the one about not taking the piss ...)

[Ivo]

I also tend to avoid rides with lots of infos - just don’t like them (WCW info - I spent 15mins trying to work out the colour of the door, it was past midnight & I wasn’t sure which house!)

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=93338.50

Having ridden with a few colourblind cyclists this year I would avoid using any info that requires colour.

Hm yes, I can remember a 200 organised by Rocco. At a certain moment there was an info question 'what's the colour of the building in the field on the right hand side'. Through the dense fog I could see a dark blob so I entered 'battleship grey'. This was accepted at the finish.

[mattc]

(or option 4, run them as group permanents with validation by GPS, which already exists in the regulations and is pretty close to what you're proposing)

Perm validation by GPS is fine and something we'd probably encourage more perm organisers to consider.

Group perms are also fine, but we wouldn't encourage people to view them as a means of running a disguised calendar event and circumventing the rules ... (If nothing else, it probably falls foul of the one about not taking the piss ...)

I don't think large-group DIY perms will take off, as the organiser can't recoup any costs from an Entry Fee. (... but perhaps there are independently wealthy AUK members with a lot of time, wanting to run paperless events, and to prove MattC wrong ...  )

But anyway; what harm do you think they might do? IAMFI!