Author Topic: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports  (Read 5360 times)

Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« on: 21 August, 2018, 09:54:58 pm »
I wrote this - published in an earlier edition of Arrive - because it is of an interest and because I run ultra distance races attracting women to race against the clock alongside men:

I felt with the current charged atmosphere as demonstrated on another post, it would be worth while airing it again:

Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports

I wrote this piece mostly because I’ve often wondered why far more men than women participate in extreme athletic activities, so the first premise for this article is to ask the question, why do more men than women participate in ultra-distance activities?  You might say that this states the obvious, and that women cyclists have interests and motivation that differ from those of male cyclists and that it is unlikely that addressing these issues will in some way encourage more women to participate in ultra-cycling or indeed ultra-challenges in any sporting endeavor.
The second premise is that this article is not intended to provide answers but mainly to pose the questions that need answers.
As far as I know, apart from the accepted and well known and documented anatomical variations between the two main genders (there seems to be more variations added every day) racing on a bicycle is pretty much the same whether the cyclist is male or female.
My analyses was confined to activities where there was no prize money, the participants engaged voluntarily and paid their own expenses, therefore, no organized sports such as golf or tennis or such were included, nor were activities such as school or college sports.
Looking at the recent results for one 24 Hour ultra-racing event - Bessies Creek - for example, it shows that more men raced than women – 80% to 20% - and that on the whole, men raced the longer distances or times than women.
In the 3,000 mile Race Across America’s roster for the 2016 race, out of a total 248 racers in teams and solo categories, only 21 racers were women. In the sister event the 880 mile Race Across the West, out of 68 racers, only 5 are women.
But this doesn’t necessarily mean that if women do race they are less likely to finish. In the 2015 edition of the RAAM, out of five females that started in the solo category, only three raced to the end – so 60%, and for the men, out of thirty six starters, half finished – so 50%. For the 2015 RAW, three women started and two finished, for the men, eighteen started but only five finished. However, we still see fewer women than men entering these extra distance races. For RAAM we had 36 male starts and 5 women starts; In the RAW, the figures were 18 male starts and three women starts. These races were of the same length for both male and female although women were allowed extra time to complete.
These statistics do not only apply to cycling, we see similar results in other endurance activities.
As chronicled by the American Elizabeth Hawley, residing in Katmandu for the past 65 years and the doyen of Everest chroniclers, of the total successful ascents of Mount Everest, out of 6,871 summits as of February 2014, only four hundred and ten were made by women. As she has said: “There are no pioneering women on Everest, they need to be pioneers in other places”.  In other words, she feels that women are probably best suited to succeed in other endeavors than climbing mountains.
Of the 3,841 successful English Channel swims to date, 63.5% were by men and 36.5% by women. There are no records of the total number of attempts or the unsuccessful attempts by either sex.
In the 2014 edition of Marathon Des Sables, the 156 miles six marathon distance race run across the Sahara Desert in Morocco, 925 men completed with 814 finishing the grueling event, and 184 women ran with 159 completing. Of note is that in 2008, Touda Didi was the first Moroccan woman to win the event.
Similar figures contend in other sporting activities such as the Appellation Trail, rowing across the Atlantic and sailing around the world.
The latest figures I have received on the Appalachian Trail is that between the years 1937-2016 on a self-reporting basis, there were 12,795 thru hikers of whom 2,861 were women either solo or in groups. For section hikers again on a self -reporting basis for the same span of years, there were 2,997 total of whom 720 were women. However, the number of women undertaking the trek is rising. In 1992 16% of the thru hikers were women but by 2012 that number had increased to 21%,. So there is a glimmer of hope that women are catching on to the pleasures of absolute pain – at least in the hiking category of ultra-sporting activities.
Something similar is evident in the Boston Marathon where out of 27,491 runners in a recent event, 14,877 were men but 12,610 were women. So is the fact that running a marathon – although strenuous - is a relatively short endurance activity that attracts so many women?
But on the whole, women just don’t engage in these types of endurance activities to the same extent as men, so the question is why?
If it is simply a case of unsurmountable physical obstacles then why should women try to compete? So, accepting that in general it is simply a case that women will never be able to race as far as men, what are women to do?
I think to answer this question it is necessary to look at the psyche involved. If it is a given that ultra-challenging events are predominately raced by men, does this imply that women are just not as motivated as men to accept the physical and or mental stresses required? Maybe women don’t want to get on a bike and ride 24 hours or longer (not many sane people of either sex actually do), maybe women accept that they have no psychological desire to do this to satisfy any kind of challenge, maybe women are just satisfied with being women and don’t need to make out they are as strong – or as risk taking – as men.
If a female racer wants to participate in an endurance race they generally do so competing in their own categories, much in the same way as age categories for both sexes. But if the races contain both men and women, women are in actuality racing against men as well as other women on the same course at the same time, so does this give a negative aspect to the race for women?
Being passed by another racer in any kind of race is intimidating and demoralizing enough, but in a mixed sex race and if the women racer is being passed by a male racer, what impact does that have on the women’s psyche?
For example, a 60 year old racer of either sex would not expect to be able to compete with a 20 year old of the same sex, assuming both are in good physical condition, but for a woman to be blown away by a male racer that has to be demoralizing. Therefore would it not be better for a woman not to have to compete with men in the same race?
A study by Dr. Salvatore J. Tirrito, cardiovascular disease specialist in Tucson states: “Studies show that women utilize less glycogen and more fat than men in long, lower-intensity exercise. This makes the female athlete particularly well suited for, and may potentially provide an advantage over men in endurance events”.
Therefore it suggests there is no general physical impediment to women undertaking endurance activities, could then the issue be one of the historical social environment where women were never expected nor encouraged to pursue the same activities – physical or intellectual - as men? Perhaps women in general don’t feel strenuous activities are expected of them. Although it would be correct to add, that neither do the vast majority of men in our sedentary, physically unexacting lives. Consider the number of people of either gender who actually participate in any kind of sporting endeavor – couch quarterbacking not included. At one time in our society people walked everywhere and were a lot healthier for it, now there are far fewer pedestrians going down my street than there are cars and trucks.
So, why do we see fewer women riding ultra- distances, or climbing mountains or hiking trails or doing the myriad other activities requiring endurance, courage, fortitude and downright grit? Perhaps it is because they have yet to appreciate the extraordinary pleasure of acute physical pain to be found in endurance events as a means of achieving the euphoria of absolute success.
Having said that, I doubt there is anything quite like the same physical exultation of giving birth – which if left to men to experience this same trauma would have led to the end of human kind at the outset – which proves beyond doubt that women are just as capable if not much more so than men to overcome brute suffering and going on to live and fight another day. So they could, so why not?
All in all, I proffer the truth that women can do whatever it is they want to do, they just have to decide that they want to do it.

Kenneth Jessett.

AKA: Charlie Polecat

Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #1 on: 22 August, 2018, 10:09:53 am »
You don't mention the transam. That doesn't distinguish between men and women in categories (it doesn't have categories) and has been won by a woman.

I suggest that for events such as RAAM, sponsorship is a barrier. It is expensive and men find it easier to raise funds.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #2 on: 22 August, 2018, 12:46:21 pm »
So, why do we see fewer women riding ultra- distances, or climbing mountains or hiking trails or doing the myriad other activities requiring endurance, courage, fortitude and downright grit? [...] All in all, I proffer the truth that women can do whatever it is they want to do, they just have to decide that they want to do it.

Kenneth Jessett.

AKA: Charlie Polecat
[/color]

I thought Sheila answer that quite well, over a year ago https://issuu.com/audax-uk/docs/17febarrivee-issu/34

Dunno if it generated much discussion in the following mag - I can't find that one inthe TPoCs and it doesn't seem to be online.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #3 on: 22 August, 2018, 12:50:40 pm »
I thought Sheila answer that quite well, over a year ago https://issuu.com/audax-uk/docs/17febarrivee-issu/34

Funnily enough, I was also thinking "money and copious free time (possibly not in that order)".  It's not rocket surgery.

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #4 on: 22 August, 2018, 01:03:09 pm »
Funnily enough, I was also thinking "money and copious free time (possibly not in that order)".  It's not rocket surgery.

Indeed.  Proving that I too can copy and paste text I have previously written elsewhere....
Quote from: me-somewhere-else-on-the-internet
As to actual reasons why fewer women cycle than men - I reckon there's loads of contributory factors. It is quite important to distinguish between reasons that an individual of any gender does or doesn't choose to ride a bike for sport/leisure/utility etc and the the reasons that groups of people may experience barriers to participation. A few starters, for ten...
- we socialise girls out of, and boys into, being competitive from a fairly early age
- we encourage risk-taking behaviours much more in our sons than we do in our daughters
- boys are rewarded for being brave and strong and tough and girls for being pretty and well-behaved - so of course teenage girls tend to become incredibly self-conscious about sportswear and sweat and messed up hair
- Women typically have
        less disposable income
        less available leisure time
        and more caring responsibilities than men

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #5 on: 22 August, 2018, 01:11:06 pm »
None of which makes women any less capable of $arbitrary_sporty_thing.  It's just that when you're drawing from a smaller pool, you're likely to see fewer of them.

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #6 on: 22 August, 2018, 01:14:23 pm »
Indeed.  And there's lots of reasons that pool is smaller.  We start to establish those differences and stereotype boys and girls at an incredibly early age, even if we don't realise we're doing it...
Quote
The toys children play with have an impact not only on how they see themselves and on what skills they learn, but also on how their brains physically develop.

Some psychologists argue that this helps to explain why certain professions are so male-dominated. An increasing number of parents and carers now say they try to avoid gender-stereotyped play.

As this experiment shows, though, it’s not always easy to overcome your own prejudices.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-40936719/gender-specific-toys-do-you-stereotype-children - the video is worth watching

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #7 on: 22 August, 2018, 01:33:08 pm »
If the major factor is the duration of long-distance events, then comparatively short events like the marathon should have much closer to equal numbers of women and men. The Boston Marathon numbers reflect that. Similarly, there should be roughly the same number of women racing bikes (most bike races generally being only an hour or two long) as men but the numbers aren't even close.

If the major factor is socialised behaviour against sweaty exercise from an early age, why are there so many female marathon runners?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #8 on: 22 August, 2018, 01:55:50 pm »
It's the duration of the training, not the event itself.

My wife used to joke about how much time Audaxing took up and that I "should find a hobby that takes up much less time, like training for a marathon".
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #9 on: 22 August, 2018, 02:16:16 pm »
One of the reasons I ride (Irish) Audax events is the fact that there is no sex or age distinction. Whether you are male or female, young or old it's just you versus the distance and time.

Some factors that may influence female participation in my opinion are :-

1. Within the last 100 years, women weren't encouraged to participate in long distance events. First female participation in the Olympic marathon was only in 1984. I was 10 in 1984. There has not been a history of societal acceptance or encouragement of female participation in long distance events. It takes many role models for it to become the norm.

2. Audax is typically self-reliant. You will need to know some basic bike maintenance. Again something that is not encouraged or taught. You have to be interested in maintaining your own bike and again as mentioned by other posters, you may come up against basic sexism when dealing with your local bike shop. The internet has been a great tool in over coming this issue. An online retailer is not going to assume that you don't know your gearing or tool needs. Online videos and Sheldon Brown have been great.

3. Club participation.In my experience if you're female you're going to have to ride with men. To keep up with them you are going to be stronger than the weakest man. You are also going to be stronger than the average woman. Therefore you are not starting on a level playing field. It is also self-selecting. There's only so many
 times you can be dropped off the back of the group before you get discouraged and go home or complete the ride solo.

4. Long distance riding takes time. If you have a family, job, other interests these all have to balanced. A winter 200 is an all day affair. You will need a supportive partner and understanding children. Too often it is assumed that a woman will take on caring for elderly parents and childcare. How many man are lauded for looking after their children? Again, this is social conditioning.

Female participation in long distance events is far more complicated than "... Just have to decide they want to do it". That is simplistic, reductionist nonsense!

Women on their own will not solve the issues of female participation, it has to be society

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #10 on: 22 August, 2018, 02:23:20 pm »
If the major factor is socialised behaviour against sweaty exercise from an early age
(My bold)
Who said that?  The only person that I can see who has mentioned the socialisation away from sweaty exercise experienced by girls is me, as part of a list following the phrase
Quote
I reckon there's loads of contributory factors

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #11 on: 22 August, 2018, 02:32:15 pm »
I'm not arguing the point that long distance activities take a long time and that women disproportionately have less spare time. Accepted.

Why do some comparatively short duration activities (like marathoning) have near equal representation but shorter distance recreational cycling (like conventional bike racing) doesn't?

Your list included competitive sports, brave behaviour and sweaty exercise but to me, they are mostly aspects of the same thing. Running a marathon involves a fair amount of all three aspects (given the injury risk) but that doesn't seem to explain the numbers of women marathoners.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #12 on: 22 August, 2018, 02:40:25 pm »
I think it's really not worth getting exercised about (did you see what I, etc?).

The OP is talking about extreme behaviour.  Ultra sport is fascinating and interesting, generally (but not always) harmless, but by definition not normal.  It borders on the fetishisistic.  Do we think there is a problem that fewer women are involved?  Of course no-one should put up barriers to their participation but I think they are probably just too bloody sensible, on average.  Men are the ones with the problem, by and large!  (Of course, I think women should not be prevented from having the problem, too!)

Peter

Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #13 on: 22 August, 2018, 03:08:25 pm »
I'm not arguing the point that long distance activities take a long time and that women disproportionately have less spare time. Accepted.

Why do some comparatively short duration activities (like marathoning) have near equal representation but shorter distance recreational cycling (like conventional bike racing) doesn't?

What do you mean by "conventional bike racing"? It might be trying to compare two completely different things. Marathon running is only racing for a very few.

As I said, I reckon it's linked to training time.

Marathons can be run with most training weeks consisting of just 3 training runs totalling less than 3h a week. (There are longer runs but most plans will not have someone running for more than 3h on a single training run. Even the long runs are sub 2h.) There's an opportunity for time strapped people to squeeze it in to a busy schedule.

You won't get very cycle fit with just 3h riding a week and only a few 'long' (>2h) rides over a few months. So training for cycling tends to require much more time, and larger blocks of time.

Training can be spread over multiple shorter sessions.
Training load for a beginner is not onerous.
Running is much more accessible.
Less specialist equipment required.
You can do it with relatively low fitness (just see the number of people who end up walking most of the marathon - the event hasn't packed up when they get to the finish).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #14 on: 22 August, 2018, 03:37:44 pm »
Your list included competitive sports, brave behaviour and sweaty exercise but to me, they are mostly aspects of the same thing. Running a marathon involves a fair amount of all three aspects (given the injury risk) but that doesn't seem to explain the numbers of women marathoners.
There are a few sports/physical activities in which women seem to have pretty high levels of participation - horsing about for one.  And most of the dance-y ones, probably - gymnastics, ice skating, synchronised swimming, actual dance... running seems to be on that list too.  I dunno why; me and organised PE never got on very well post-primary school and watching it - any of it - holds basically no interest, so I'm no expert.

Maybe there's an element of role-modelling to it?  Even as a 'very uninterested in sports' kid I (and my big sister who I'm gossiping with at the mo, who was a shit hot shot-putter as a teen and vaguely terrifying with a hockey stick but if anything even less sporty than me) can think of field and track athletes who were famous and on the telly when I was a kid.  I guess the women-who-are-sporty will tend towards the sports-that-women-do, IYSWIM.

I personally am very strongly of the view that running is something that happens to other people but my female friends who run are mostly the generally sporty/outdoorsy types or have been assimilated into the club by the sporty/outdoorsy types using group activities like park runs, fundraisers etc as a gateway drug.  The SmallestCub's school has taken up running in a big way - classes running a mile round the playground several times a week, the school running a collaborative fundraising marathon once a year on Star Wars day with a couple of staff, some parents and the odd governor doing the full distance up and down the river path and every kid in the school going out and doing at least one mile, some of them more - and more and more of the staff have taken up running over the 4 years since that all started.

Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #15 on: 22 August, 2018, 03:49:21 pm »
The mile a day at school is a national (nothing to do with the Government) initiative: https://thedailymile.co.uk/

(That web address always makes me shudder at first reading...)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #16 on: 22 August, 2018, 04:13:59 pm »
The mile a day at school is a national (nothing to do with the Government) initiative: https://thedailymile.co.uk/

Yeah, there's that one, and also the golden mile https://schools.golden-mile.org/ and possibly other organisations helping to promote the idea.

For it to have any impact it needs a school leadership to value it so that class teachers feel supported to make time for it.  That's what happened at the Cub's (now former) school.  As a result they have, as I say, developed a strong culture of running in the organisation and there's a fair number of staff, parents, governors and pupils who are now regularly running, and running serious distances.  There were a few keen runners there beforehand; I reckon the combination of them setting the example and the peer support that has built over the years has contributed a lot.  For example, there's now a regular meet up in the playground of mostly mums and a couple of dads who do the school run in their kit and trainers and then go off and do 5-10km before splitting off home to get on with their days - some of them heading home for a shower then back into school for their shifts as dinner ladies.  There's probably some crossover with growing success of the the local parkrun which I think has been going about 6 years which I suspect is a very female-friendly approach to 'competing', with its emphasis on peer support and PBs.


Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #17 on: 22 August, 2018, 04:21:43 pm »
Seems to me (and I say this as someone who only runs to evade capture) that another difference between cycling and marathon running, including their associated training, is cars.  It's much easier to do Running without having to deal with traffic any more than is normal and ordinary for a pedestrian.

Women are socially conditioned to have a lower threshold for being bullied, abused and physically endangered than young men, and sadly that's par for the course when cycling in traffic.  Rachel Aldred's research shows speed differential is a contributory factor, so women experience more bad behaviour on average, even if you discount things like sexual harassment by WVM.

(Conversely, I reckon that being on a bicycle makes you much socially safer than on foot.  But that effect only kicks in once you're actually on the bicycle, so it's unlikely to encourage anyone to cycle.)

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #18 on: 22 August, 2018, 04:30:56 pm »
You can also do Running with a 15 quid pair of trainers and an hour.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #19 on: 22 August, 2018, 04:41:10 pm »
When I was racing on the velodrome, almost no training session lasted longer than an hour and track bikes were hired for less than $5 a time. Given the hardware I see being ridden around Richmond Park by plenty of women, cost isn't a major restriction.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #20 on: 22 August, 2018, 04:42:50 pm »

(Conversely, I reckon that being on a bicycle makes you much socially safer than on foot.  But that effect only kicks in once you're actually on the bicycle, so it's unlikely to encourage anyone to cycle.)

On the way out for a bit of a bike based microadventure, as I turned a corner round a group of young men loitering on a corner, one of them pulled my hair. I pulled over, called the police, who came very quickly. They couldn't make assault stick, but the contents of the guys pockets were enough for him to get a trip to a magistrate...

I've had drivers yell "NICE TITS!" at me, Belgian kids yell "GAY!" etc... I spend so little time walking, that I can't really compare if I get more abuse when cycling to when being a pedestrian.

But things like this are one of the reasons I do like riding at night...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #21 on: 22 August, 2018, 04:52:06 pm »
When I was racing on the velodrome, almost no training session lasted longer than an hour and track bikes were hired for less than $5 a time. Given the hardware I see being ridden around Richmond Park by plenty of women, cost isn't a major restriction.

Pay

https://visual.ons.gov.uk/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap/

Time

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nati...ook-more-leisure-than-women-in-2015-in-the-uk

And you can't exercise the dog/go to do the school pickup/push a buggy round with yiu/use your lunch break (unless you're really lucky with the location of your workplace) at the velodrome.  As I say, I'm not a runner and wouldn't be certain I'd even qualify as
someone who only runs to evade capture
but I do see a lot of sense in reasons why my PE-participating female friends have picked Running as their PE of choice.

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #22 on: 22 August, 2018, 04:53:38 pm »
Given the hardware I see being ridden around Richmond Park by plenty of women, cost isn't a major restriction.

I think the key thing here is that everyone should stop assuming their anecdotal experiences have bearing on a wider situation, which is squarely put into context by crinklylion's post above.
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD



Ban cars.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #23 on: 22 August, 2018, 04:55:53 pm »
When I was racing on the velodrome, almost no training session lasted longer than an hour and track bikes were hired for less than $5 a time. Given the hardware I see being ridden around Richmond Park by plenty of women, cost isn't a major restriction.

Actually, this is exposure bias. You only see the expensive hardware being ridden, because as I've explained in great length, there's not a lot out there in the low range. How many ali bikes with Sora do you see being ridden compared to carbon 105/ultegra bikes?

The cheapest ladies road bike edinburgh bike coop do is a 460gbp (down from 575 in the sale), Liv bike. But they only do 16 women's bikes compared to 51 mens. Decathlon don't seem to list a bike as women's specific, but the cheapest they offer that comes in XS size is 250. (1x 48 chain ring, 14-34 cassette!). The cheapest Canyon Women specific bike is €899, and comes with tiagra 50/34 and an 11-32. Not sure what to conclude from this. Can anyone find me a women's specific road bike for under 350gbp?

Cost is an issue, but I don't think it's as big an issue as the simple availability of women's bikes is.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Women and ultra-challenge endurance sports
« Reply #24 on: 22 August, 2018, 05:01:15 pm »
My anecdotal experience includes having a partner who has finished the most long (1000+km) brevets of any woman in the world, roughly twice as many as me. She is a better long distance rider and particularly a better climber. She has more bikes than me, several of which are off the peg, despite her shorter than average height. Her tendency is to tell folk (men or women) to just get on with it and she generally prefers riding and touring as 'one of the blokes'. I am well aware that YMMV

Most women don't need women-specific bikes, just small bikes. Small blokes tend to have narrower shoulders and shorter arms too. Swapping stems and other stuff is something any decent bike shop should do. Nowadays, a £500 bike is considered pretty cheap and is a smaller percentage of an average weekly wage than any decent bike was in the 1950s when cycling was riding high in the UK with both sexes.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...