Author Topic: Top tips for going longer  (Read 35039 times)

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2011, 10:19:04 am »
You'll learn a lot by reading all of these tips.

You'll learn far more yourself by doing the rides, getting stuff wrong and working out how to make it better the next time.

As the old quote goes:-

"
Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgement.
"
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2011, 10:24:05 am »
Science.


On the very long rides your digestion will be somewhere between impaired and shut down, and a lot of people find eating can be a real problem. 

I used to have this problem and speaking personally, it's lack of salt. Cake's not your friend on longer rides as it has none. Nuun tablets plus lots of stuff like cheese/salami en-route. For the very long ride last summer I also took a multi-mineral tablet (Calcium/Zinc/Iron), I wouldnt bother with that for a 400 or less.

If you're no whippet, don't worry about getting dropped on hills, you'll simply burn out quicker. On the flat and downhill you can make it up.
My events: 18th Feb 2018 Willesden Reliability; 1st July 2018 3 Audaxes from Maidenhead; 8th Sep 2018 3Down

border-rider

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2011, 10:24:29 am »
My 'Audax pace' is 16 - 17 mph on a 100, 15 - 16 mph on a 150, 14 - 15 mph on a 200, 13 - 14 mph on a 300 and 12 - 13 mph on a 400.

Mine's pretty consistent.  I tend to watch my HR and make sure I'm sitting comfortably in a zone where I'm not ripping through glycogen stores (hard to do on hills, easier on the flat).  My road speed doesn't change that much from a 100 to a 1400.  More buggering about in controls on longer rides, of course, so average speed is significantly lower.

Manotea

  • Just 1 sob, Vassily
Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2011, 10:27:12 am »
On the very long rides your digestion will be somewhere between impaired and shut down, and a lot of people find eating can be a real problem.  

I don't have trouble eating per se (obviously haven't ridden far enough yet...) but often succombe to 'supermarket brain death' and the associated 'service station eating disorder', where one wanders the shelves in a trance like state searching for something you can bare to eat amongst the overpriced over processed pap on offer.

border-rider

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2011, 10:31:33 am »
I don't have trouble eating either, though some do.  But ones digestion will be impaired - the blood will be diverted to other, more immediately useful, places.  Hence why we tend to eat differently as the event unfolds.  You can't keep stuffing in huge, high-fibre meals if it's not being processed.  Toby's menu sounds weird but it's got lots of sugar & salt and it works for him.

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2011, 10:31:53 am »
My 'Audax pace' is 16 - 17 mph on a 100, 15 - 16 mph on a 150, 14 - 15 mph on a 200, 13 - 14 mph on a 300 and 12 - 13 mph on a 400.

The more you get your fat metabolism trained the less tail off you'll see in your audax pace on the longer rides.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2011, 10:45:32 am »
This eating business is tricky.  I find one has to eat the maximum amount but not too much.  So, Rice and curry good.  Rice and curry followed by apple pie and custard..also good but too much

The famous tip "think of it one stage at a time. Don't think beyond the next control. This reduces a scarily long ride to a series of do-able stages" repeated by thing1 above is quite true but TBH it doesn't work for me.  The longer the ride the better.  Can it not go on forever?

Agree with all the points about Electrolytes.  Have a blog post all about it
The Secret Ingredient « Audaxing

Audaxing Blog follow @vorsprungbike on

Alouicious

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2011, 10:50:58 am »
I don't have trouble eating either, though some do.  But ones digestion will be impaired - the blood will be diverted to other, more immediately useful, places.  Hence why we tend to eat differently as the event unfolds.  You can't keep stuffing in huge, high-fibre meals if it's not being processed.  Toby's menu sounds weird but it's got lots of sugar & salt and it works for him.

You may have dropped a unintentional mistake here.

Is 'Fibre' "Unavailable carbohydrate", as in its not used as CHO and passes through untouched.

Some High and mostly Medium GI sugars.

Alouicious

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2011, 10:55:52 am »
My 'Audax pace' is 16 - 17 mph on a 100, 15 - 16 mph on a 150, 14 - 15 mph on a 200, 13 - 14 mph on a 300 and 12 - 13 mph on a 400.

The more you get your fat metabolism trained the less tail off you'll see in your audax pace on the longer rides.

These pace settings are deliberate. As 12.5 mph is my most efficient riding speed, I keep myself down there to be more confident of finishing.
Up hills 5 -  6 mph. Downhills gravity does the work.

I was thinking this this very morning, taking a slow commute at 12 - 13 ish at 60 rpm. I thought "This is four times the speed of walking for the same energy output. No wonder the bicycle became so popular".

border-rider

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2011, 10:58:44 am »
I don't have trouble eating either, though some do.  But ones digestion will be impaired - the blood will be diverted to other, more immediately useful, places.  Hence why we tend to eat differently as the event unfolds.  You can't keep stuffing in huge, high-fibre meals if it's not being processed.  Toby's menu sounds weird but it's got lots of sugar & salt and it works for him.

You may have dropped a unintentional mistake here.

Is 'Fibre' "Unavailable carbohydrate", as in its not used as CHO and passes through untouched.

Some High and mostly Medium GI sugars.

The point I'm making is that the things your body does fine normally - digestion, pushing through unused fibre, all that stuff - well, that's all different when you're slogging out the miles on a 600 or a 1000.  It gets de-prioritised, to a greater or lesser extent, and that means you end up having to eat differently.

border-rider

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2011, 11:00:20 am »
As 12.5 mph is my most efficient riding speed, I keep myself down there to be more confident of finishing.


But that's the point.  If you train  fat metabolism to work better at higher power outputs, your "most efficient riding speed" rises - or at least, you end up being able to ride faster for the same food intake.  Which may not be the same thing.

Alouicious

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2011, 11:16:36 am »
As 12.5 mph is my most efficient riding speed, I keep myself down there to be more confident of finishing.


But that's the point.  If you train  fat metabolism to work better at higher power outputs, your "most efficient riding speed" rises - or at least, you end up being able to ride faster for the same food intake.  Which may not be the same thing.

I do enough 100s at 14 mph average 'Fasted' inducing lipolysis. Like a 2000, 500 and started a 3000 Brevet Series; to improve my fat burning capability.

Two days after a fasted 100, my bodyfat % has dropped by 1/2%.

You have to remember the power vs speed curve is exponential. Increase speed by 50% and you have to double the power from your legs to keep that speed.

Plan the ride properly and commit a max time at controls, stops, P* repairs etc to get a 'necessary riding speed'. Aim to finish with a couple of hours to spare JIC P*s happen more than you'd like.

For example. 400km. 12 stops of 15 minutes. 17 kmh overall average with a 19 - 22 kmh cruising speed.
12,000 kCals. 23:45 target finish  ;D

LEE

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2011, 11:26:29 am »
I've done plenty of 200s and am looking forward to my first 300 next weekend, and feel ready for it (famous last words).  :-\

In my experience a 200 is 'just' a long day in the saddle but going longer takes in new territory. I'd welcome what your most important tip is for not only a 300 but going through to an SR, and if lucky enough to qualify and get a place, PBP.

How many and how fast do you generally do them?

If you've done 20 x 200s and finish them in about 10 hours then you have nothing to worry about, it's just another 5 hours of snacking and drinking enough because you'll have about 5 hours in hand, 10 hours for the final 100km.

If you've done 2 x 200s and just manage to get back on 13 hours and 20 mins then it's a different issue.

The final 50km of a 300 generally seems to be about the same toughness as the final 50km of any Audax but maybe that's because I start to count down those final 50 and make them seem longer than they are.

Take it stage by stage and look at the scenery (as others have said).

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2011, 11:34:25 am »
As 12.5 mph is my most efficient riding speed, I keep myself down there to be more confident of finishing.


But that's the point.  If you train  fat metabolism to work better at higher power outputs, your "most efficient riding speed" rises - or at least, you end up being able to ride faster for the same food intake.  Which may not be the same thing.

or you can ride at the same speed as before and eat very little.  I've spent the last 3 months riding below 75% max HR on all my long rides and it's making a huge difference to how often I need to eat.

Alouicious

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2011, 11:35:31 am »
The 300 plan is 9 stops, so 11 sections. They're less than 30 km apart !! ;)

17.25 kmh overall average.

7,000 kCals, + daily normal intake.

Target 17:30 finish.


Tip. Find out where the shops are between controls. Use these as planned stops.

On a 300, have 11 Saved routes ( Garmin ). This will force you to stop and load the next section.

When you do stop, do some stretching.

marcusjb

  • Full of bon courage.
    • Occasional wittering
Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2011, 11:43:38 am »
As someone who's just made the hop up to 300 (first one was the Dean last week), I've not got lots of experience to draw on like many on here - but certainly treating the Dean as a bunch of 50km legs worked well and never had me worried about the extra distance, I could 'cut-up' my ride into bite-sized chunks lasting a bit over two hours each.

It wasn't perfect, I made a mistake I have made before at the last control at 250km (at 150km on 200s) and not eaten properly (thinking it's only another 50k to go etc.) and suffered because of this.  I'll get it right one of these days.

I didn't find the extra distance too daunting, I've got about 10 200s in over winter, and ridden to/from the start/finish on a couple (getting my max distance up to about 265km).  However, I think the jump up to 400km is going to be a lot tougher as that does take it from a long day ride (got round in just under 17 hours) to something a whole lot more challenging.  Not setting myself a time to aim for (other than 27 hours or whatever it is!), but I can imagine that riding 10 plus hours in the dark is going to be very difficult mentally.

Good luck for the first 300 next weekend from recent first-timer!
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

arabella

  • no se porque yo no lo se
Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2011, 12:21:34 pm »
Understand your food needs
Quote from: Manotea
... supermarket brain death' and the associated 'service station eating disorder', where one wanders the shelves in a trance like state searching for something you can bear to eat amongst the overpriced over processed pap on offer...
I'll say.
I find making sore I drink more than I think I need and having a 'menu' depending on time of day helps get around this. eg (though adjust depending on when you start etc.).
early in the ride/day: breakfasty stuff eg with bacon ies salt)
mid-morning to mid afternoon, some of:  cheese and tomato sandwiches, yoghurt, raw carrot/apple/grapes, plain or seedy rolls (at supermarket)
or something like a toastie/cottage pie (ie not too greasy).  I've even been known to eat beans on toast
mid afternoon: toasted teacake/scones/cake, milky drink
early evening/late afternoon: soup and roll
later evening: usually at a manned control so whatver on offer, else see breakfast or pizza-y stuff
silly o'clock cheese toastie/malt loaf/whatever's available and coffee and 40 winks while the coffee kicks in

I don't seem to eat som much in the night so stock up.  Also I take cereal bars and jelly sweets (currently haribo tropifruit hits the spot) for in between.
I mainly drink water, when I realise I've forgotten to drink I add salt/sugar for cheapskate rehydration.

In the main though if you can do 200 under 12.5 hours and feel comfortable at the end then 300 is OK - but you need to have got past 200km by whatever time 200km/15kph  gives you so you start the last 100km with min 6 hours 40 mins (pref 7 hours).  Anything faster is unnecessary, I should know, ymmv.

600 you can treat as 2x300 (roughly) with a reasonable break in between - so you need to be that bit faster so you have time for that break 1 min plus however long you want to sleep - adjust leaving time by how much time you need for the rest of the ride.

400 in may awys is more difficult, as has been said.  You'll definitely ride a good chunk of the night, no sleep (usually) and need to get the fiid right.  I shall be using the "silly o'clock cheese toastie/malt loaf/whatever's available and coffee and 40 winks while the coffee kicks in" method this year, after 2 of 500s last year this seems to work - it's taken a while to pin down as I do at most 2 in any one year.   
In the dark, all views are the same.

AndyH

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2011, 12:58:08 pm »
Be mentally prepared for the ride to be over distance. Both my 400 and 600 last year were about 25K over IIRC, which is not a lot in the scheme of things, but if you're getting your head round 400K for the first time is a bit  :o
Don't forget it can get cold in the middle of the night, sometimes more so if it's been a nice day.
Don't get discouraged if (and when) you find you ride more slowly in the dark.
Don't worry if you have a bad patch, they tend to pass.
Take some painkillers with you. And some arse cream.
Make sure you can read the routesheet in the dark somehow.
Make sure you can read roadsigns in the dark somehow
Make sure you've got enough batteries / power for lights, gps etc.
Be prepared to adapt the plan that you've carefully thought out during weeks of preparation when it doesn't quite go the way you thought.

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2011, 01:05:40 pm »
going at a relaxed pace is fine. however once on a bike for the whole day i like to include some training for speed as well. on the flat i go at an easy cruising pace (~20mph with no wind or equivalent), then i like to push uphill for strength training. then relax going downill and on the flat again. it's possible to save more time riding this way, it's more fun, feels more challenging and improves fitness. i like to feel some tingle in the muscles after the rides.
i wouldn't say extra long rides are very different. you need to be comfortable on a bike, prepared for night/wet riding and go at easier pace.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2011, 02:54:26 pm »
It can be helpful to eat a meal 'backwards'.
Sponge & custard provide quick sloppy carbs which can be absorbed and replacing your glycogen while you eat your savoury course (with its useful minerals) later.

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2011, 02:57:21 pm »
When getting the bonk, I find the combination of plain crisps + chocolate is amazingly restorative. Gets me out of the '__________' stage to the point where one or two synapses fire and I can eat something sensible.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

mattc

  • "Hannibal"
  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2011, 03:16:14 pm »
Be mentally prepared for the ride to be over distance. Both my 400 and 600 last year were about 25K over IIRC, which is not a lot in the scheme of things, but if you're getting your head round 400K for the first time is a bit  :o
Of course the customer is always right  O:-)

... but I'd like to point out that this can't be a problem if you're just "riding to the next control".

(OK, so a route sheet MIGHT be 25k out on a 80k leg, but I've yet to see this happen ... )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

AndyH

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2011, 03:34:26 pm »
... but I'd like to point out that this can't be a problem if you're just "riding to the next control".

It wasn't a problem Matt, it was a great route. 

My point was that when stepping up to the next distance you have to be aware that it will be over, and you need to be prepared for it. I'm not picking on you this 300 is 314 for example. (True VFM :) )

I remember quite a few whinged at the start of your 400 though.

Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2011, 03:36:07 pm »
It can be helpful to eat a meal 'backwards'.

Should just be possible with a small spoon.

Karla

  • car(e) free
Re: Top tips for going longer
« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2011, 03:41:05 pm »
A toothbrush is a useful thing to take on a 600.  Waking up with a furry mouth on the second day isn't the best 5am start I've ever had.
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