Neck/trapezius pain on road bike - options?

[DuncanM]

I have 3 bikes I ride semi regularly - a MTB, a fixie and a road bike. The first 2 are fine, but on the latter, I get significant neck/trapezius tightness and pain if I ride for an hour or so. I have owned it since I was 19 (20 years), but I think I've changed shape and lost flexibility and strength in that time. I had a bike fit on it at the local shop, which was mostly working on saddle position (moved it down significantly - would have moved it back even further but ran out of rails), and I've got a much taller stem than it used to have, but I think I am still putting too much weight through my hands (and from the drops I need to work much harder to see). I don't think the setup when on the hoods is very different to my fixie:
2016-05-27_09-22-17 by duncancmartin, on Flickr
Imagine the saddle is dropped about 2 inches from this picture:
2016-02-07_05-42-41 by duncancmartin, on Flickr

Is it worth trying to find a saddle with longer rails (currently flite titanium) so I can try sitting further back? Could that genuinely help? I understand the theory that it will move my point of balance backward, putting less weight on my arms, but it will mean a longer reach to the bars, meaning my back will be flatter and so I'll have to use my neck muscles even more to be able to see! 
Alternatively, can I modify myself by doing specific exercises to make it work? I'm not currently a member of a gym, but there is one around the corner I can use if I need to.
The stem is already huge, so I can't bring the bars any higher/closer to me. If I can't sort it, then it will have to go  and I'll be hunting for a new bike .
Cheers
Duncan

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Is the saddle level on your road bike? If it slopes nose down, that puts a lot of load on your shoulders as you push yourself back.

[jsabine]

The stem is already huge, so I can't bring the bars any higher/closer to me.

You could probably use some combination of threaded-ahead convertor, ahead extender, and high-rise stem to change the bar position, and reach would be readily adjustable, albeit by swapping parts.

Aesthetic appeal, of course, would remain in the eye of the beholder.

[fuaran]

Are you wearing a helmet with a peak? That causes a sore neck on the road bike for me.

[hellymedic]

I was going to ask about a helmet but fuaran beat me to it!

[T42]

I'm suffering from the same thing just now. I always ride a road bike, and the one I ride was perfectly comfortable last year.  Since I had a couple of months off this year and have only done ~1500 km since, my neck & trapezoids aren't sufficiently trained yet to ride far on the drops without pain.

If you're spending most of your cycling time on the other two bikes, this might be your problem too.

[DuncanM]

Saddle is level, helmet has no peak. I've not tried it sans helmet completely tho. Crazy stem combinations would spoil the bike for me - part of the point is that it's a classic steel bike.
If it's a matter of training, what's the best way to do it off the bike? I'd prefer to enjoy the time I get on the bike!
Cheers Duncan

[Samuel D]

The saddle as it’s in your photo (I know you said you lowered it) would be much too nose-down for me. But we’re all different in the sit-bone area.

[DuncanM]

The picture was before the bike fit - we moved the saddle  back and changed angle too...
Will try to get a picture later.
Cheers Duncan

[T42]

If it's a matter of training, what's the best way to do it off the bike? I'd prefer to enjoy the time I get on the bike!
Cheers Duncan

I've never managed to train it off the bike. I just hurt ride after ride until it goes away, staying off the drops unless necessary.  Last year I could ride quite a long time on the drops, right now it's about 5 minutes before a get a (har har) heads-up.

You do have old-style deep drops on your bike. You can get shallow drops nowadays, although getting them to the same diameter as yours might be a problem.

[DuncanM]

Here's the current setup:
2016-10-15_02-45-12 by duncancmartin, on Flickr
And side by side with the fixie:
2016-10-15_02-45-41 by duncancmartin, on Flickr
The fixie frame is slightly bigger, but the stems are basically the same height. The fixie saddle is a bit higher, but that's because I guessed the height after I was fitted on the Peugeot! The drops are a lot lower though!
Cheers
Duncan

[chrisbainbridge]

I am not an expert so please take this with a pinch of salt.

The hoods on your peugeot are very much lower down than the tops.  This could mean that when you are on the hoods your weight is be thrown forward and you could end up reaching over the top.  I could imagine that this could stress your neck.

Rotating the bars to bring the hoods closer to the tops would be simple to try.
 

[mrcharly-YHT]

Ditto

also, with those hoods in that position, I think it will be very difficult to get a 'forearms parallel to road' position' and instead you will have more of 'zombie droop' which will stress exactly the muscles you have been complaining are hurting.

[DuncanM]

I agree that the hoods are not quite in the right place. I tried the rotating thing, but it meant that the drops were angled downwards, and with slippy gloves and bumpy roads you could almost be bounced entirely out of the drops!  I should probably move the hoods further around the handlebar, but have resisted so far because that would mean messing about with the bar tape as well - it's an experiment worth trying.  I can only get forearms parallel to the road if I put my palms on the top of the hoods, but that basically puts me in a superman style position and my core can't deal with that for very long! I don't think I've ever got my forearms there (except on tri bars, and that hurt my neck too). What is this zombie droop position you refer to?

I rode the bike on Thursday as well as Wednesday.  It was no better, but no worse either. The only position where my back and neck were completely comfortable was when I had my hands on the tops, but I have always hated riding like that (it makes my elbows stick out strangely and I don't feel I have control of the bike). Hoods is bearable, drops less so (especially into the inevitable headwind on the way home).
I will experiment with doing the plank exercise and watching TV at the same time to see if I can train my neck - I don't get to ride frequently or far enough to train it exclusively by riding. I will also see if I can find an inexpensive saddle with longer rails to move further back. I ordered some 25mm tyres (Michelin Pro 4 Endurance) yesterday to try to make it a little more comfortable (I don't think 28s will fit in the frame or the forks). I'll also look at changing the angle of the saddle (the B17 on the fixie is defiitely more nose up, though that has some give (and could also do with longer rails!) - must remember to move the seatpost up slightly if I rotate the saddle and move the back of it down slightly.
Cheers
Duncan

[Manotea]

I get this after returning to cycling after a long lay-off, and I start to get fit enough to put in sustained effort/work. It can be excruciating. It feels like a trapped nerve but isn't. I've come to the conclusion it's just a small muscle group complaining. It goes away in a few weeks as I get fitter. Sitting up/backing off the effort/adopting a more relaxed posture helps a bit, I find.

Edit: going through the getting fit process, my posture/position changes a lot as my stomach gets out the way and I become more supple. It becomes easier to adopt/maintain a lower posture, and I focus on relaxing/stabilising my upper body which acts as a brace/ballast supporting all the work/tension channeling through my lower body. That's the theory, anyway.

[yoav]

I agree with Manotea - whilst I always get some neck/shoulder pain after a ride, this went away completely on a recent 2 week tour where I was riding a fair distance every day, rather than 1-2 times a week.

With regards to position, I think your handlebars may be too high, rather than too low.

When I had a bike fit, with the same symptoms as you, my saddle was raised and the bars lowered. He showed me a video of me on the turbo from the side which showed my back was arched before the position change and much flatter afterwards. He also advised me to relax and drop my shoulders, and bend my elbows more when riding on the hoods or tops.

His advice generally worked and even now, when I start to get neck pain, I consciously drop my shoulders and it eases off.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

This may be a complete red herring, but I used to get neck/trapezius pain after long distance rides, and it turns out that the root cause is a slight displacement of (I think) no5 vertebrae to which the solution has been occasional visits to the osteopath so they can 'jump' it back into the right place, and also a couple of stretches that they have given me which help to loosen the muscles that tense up in that area. 

That's helped a lot, without changing the bike set up.

[Manotea]

...and likewise, I went to a physio once with a bad knee, and came out with a congential deformity of the shoulders (one is slightly higher than the other... ), and a consequence of that is I have my brake levers set at slightly different heights to try and level things out, or at least I do when I remember. Thing is though I can never remember which one is supposed to be higher, so its all a bit trial and error. The aforementioned excruiating pain does incentivise me to try and remember though, or at least play with the setup until it goes away...

[yoav]

I wouldn't let a osteopath manipulate my neck. Similarly, I wouldn't accept a "diagnosis" from a physio.

The trouble with some "therapists" is that they mix common sense and sensible advice with nonsense and bogus treatments. It can be hard to tell which is which.

[DuncanM]

I'm not going near an osteopath or a chiropractor. My prior experience is that they make my neck click a lot, and it is OK for a day or so and then goes back to how it was previously!
I rode on Wednesday, and noticed that I was shrugging my shoulders. When I was aware of this, I tried to drop them down which was awkward and a bit sore. I wasn't intentionally shrugging, so either it's a bad habit I have got into, or my position on this bike is causing my to do this for some reason.  I think I need to try riding it a bit more and focus on what my shoulders are doing...
Cheers
Duncan

[DuncanM]

Thread resurrection!
I have only been able to ride between 2 and 0 times a week since I posted the original post. Riding more frequently helped a little, but definitely didn't resolve the issue. Reading about bike fitting, it seems that in theory I should be able to ride in my normal position after removing my hands from the bars - I definitely can't do this! My original bike fitter said that she would have moved my saddle further back if I had longer rails, in order to change exactly where my weight was. I have 2 (ish) further questions -
1. Is there any way to find out how long saddle rails are and where one actually sits on the top of it relative to those rails?
2. Is it worth getting a bike fit on a bike jig (rather than on a bike)?
2a. I assume that this would give me a set of geometry that I could map to my bike (or a new one if my bike can't be contorted to the correct shape)?
Cheers
Duncan

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Usually, folk try a seatpost with more setback first.
e.g. http://practicalcycles.com/products/241887--velo-orange-mkii-grand-cru-layback-alloy-seatpost.aspx
or more radically
http://practicalcycles.com/products/225363--humpert-ergotec-vario-futura-adjustable-seatpost.aspx

[DuncanM]

That sounds like a good idea! Unfortuntely, the seatpin is thinish (26.6 IIRC), so those won't fit. Classic steel frames are hard to spec for these days if you want something unusual! I'll keep looking as that might solve my problem.
Cheers
Duncan

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I have used an adjustable reamer to open up a steel seat tube to 27.2mm in the past when there are few alternatives. It takes a while.

[McWheels]

http://cruzbike.com/silvio

All common complaints a recumbent-ist doesn't suffer from...