Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: alwyn on 25 April, 2019, 11:42:15 am

Title: LEL 2021 Route
Post by: alwyn on 25 April, 2019, 11:42:15 am
I was going to hold on until August to tell you more about the next LEL, but I thought that any news would be (quite rightly) crowded out by PBP. So I'll start a thread here with my news.

Rather than slim the LEL route down from a rather podgy 1430km, we've decided to fatten it up instead. LEL2021 will therefore become a 1500km event. This will give you an extra 8 hours and 20 minutes to complete those extra 70km.

Subject to LRM approval, we'll also have a 100 hour group, albeit rather smaller than last time. There will be just one group at this speed, leaving at 5am. And because of other changes that I'll reveal soon, this means we will have far, far more starting slots between 06:00 and 12:00 for people who want a 125 hour limit.

The route will be mandatory this time. There will be a single secret control. Again, because of extra details that we'll tell you about soon, we may also ask LRM to waive this requirement for a short stretch of the route.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: lmm on 25 April, 2019, 01:03:37 pm
As someone with little long ride experience but aiming for LEL2021:

Mandatory route sounds good. I'm all for having fewer choices, and presumably that means less infos/proofs-of-passage which is very welcome.

1500km: eek, but I guess it's only 5% further. As a full-value sort the extra time sounds good, though depends how it lines up with day boundaries really. In some ways a 3am finish might be more civilised than an 11am one for those of us at the back. But I'm sure it'll work out.

Can't really respond to the decisions for super secret reasons without knowing the full picture, so I'll wait and anticipate for the news.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: psyclist on 25 April, 2019, 02:33:26 pm
In some ways a 3am finish might be more civilised than an 11am one for those of us at the back. But I'm sure it'll work out.

For the 125 hour group, the cut-off times will be between 11am and 5pm.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Graeme on 25 April, 2019, 02:56:04 pm
1500km.
 :o

I'm guessing that you're including extra ups and downs too. I hope I'm up to the challenge.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Fidgetbuzz on 25 April, 2019, 03:59:56 pm
Imm

and presumably that means less infos/proofs-of-passage which is very welcome.

There are NO info controls .. and the only proof of passage needed is the validation stamp at each of the controls as you pass through .. roughly every 80kms
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: grams on 25 April, 2019, 05:06:33 pm
I'm guessing that you're including extra ups and downs too. I hope I'm up to the challenge.

(click to show/hide)

I'm not normally a fan of mandatory route, but for a prestige event, I think it makes sense for everyone to take on the same challenge.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: lmm on 25 April, 2019, 05:12:54 pm
In some ways a 3am finish might be more civilised than an 11am one for those of us at the back. But I'm sure it'll work out.

For the 125 hour group, the cut-off times will be between 11am and 5pm.

Exactly - whereas presumably in 1400km form the cut-offs were between 3am and 9am.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Cycling Redemption on 25 April, 2019, 05:20:22 pm
Wow that sounds  :o  For me Paris was not going to happen this year as health issue have kept me off the bike, but this gives me something to aim/train for. Looking forward to seeing the route in more detail.  :) Thanks alwyn
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: DCLane on 25 April, 2019, 05:38:14 pm
Sounds interesting. I'm one of those who skipped the Howardian hills, preferring the flatter option.

But then I did end up in Grimsby by accident on the Sunday night instead  ::-)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Phil W on 25 April, 2019, 05:38:34 pm
Those extra 8.3 hours will likely result in an extra sleep on the final night for me.  Good decision to take it up to 1500km.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 25 April, 2019, 05:43:54 pm
The route will be mandatory this time. There will be a single secret control. Again, because of extra details that we'll tell you about soon, we may also ask LRM to waive this requirement for a short stretch of the route.
Sorry to be dense. Alwyn. What requirement might you ask LRM to waive? Does LRM require a mandatory route? Does LRM require all mandatory routes to have a secret control?
I'm assuming it's not the recommendation to require qualifying rides. "Il est recommandé que tous les événements RM validés suivent le modèle du PBP et utilisent les brevets qualifiants pour s’assurer que les participants soient bien préparés et limiter le nombre d’abandons."
Personally I took a (slightly straighter) hillier option over the Lincolnshire Wolds on the way up, allowing me to call on friends in Boston en route.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: LMT on 25 April, 2019, 06:31:34 pm
That the route is mandatory.

Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 25 April, 2019, 10:05:05 pm
In some ways a 3am finish might be more civilised than an 11am one for those of us at the back. But I'm sure it'll work out.

For the 125 hour group, the cut-off times will be between 11am and 5pm.

Exactly - whereas presumably in 1400km form the cut-offs were between 3am and 9am.
No. Iirc in 2017 the 117:05 time limit ended at 0605 through till 1305 (as those starts were 0900-1600) - daylight by design.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: lmm on 25 April, 2019, 11:29:50 pm
Exactly - whereas presumably in 1400km form the cut-offs were between 3am and 9am.
No. Iirc in 2017 the 117:05 time limit ended at 0605 through till 1305 (as those starts were 0900-1600) - daylight by design.

Ah I see - fair enough, certainly I can see how a late finish would be a burden on the organisers.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 26 April, 2019, 09:13:53 am
Exactly - whereas presumably in 1400km form the cut-offs were between 3am and 9am.
No. Iirc in 2017 the 117:05 time limit ended at 0605 through till 1305 (as those starts were 0900-1600) - daylight by design.

Ah I see - fair enough, certainly I can see how a late finish would be a burden on the organisers.
We spent the whole of that 'last' day packing up the finish, accelerating the process in the afternoon once the last riders had completed, but still offering a welcome and food (till late afternoon) to those who arrived 'hors délai'. 2017 timings worked well.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: HeltorChasca on 26 April, 2019, 06:42:43 pm
*Pricks up ears* Looking for my first long distance event.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: αdαmsκι on 26 April, 2019, 09:01:57 pm
LEL is great; the longer the better IMO :thumbsup:.

I've taken advantage of the free route nature of LEL both times I've ridden. however mandatory route makes everything simpler as it's just a case of follow the provided track rather than thinking about the off piste options.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Planet X Paul on 26 April, 2019, 11:41:00 pm
I'm curious as to where the additional 70 kms are going into the route.  I suppose I'll just have to wait until Danial stops teasing us  ;D
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: mzjo on 28 April, 2019, 02:06:48 pm
Presumably that means one more control than 2017. As one who is planning to be a volunteer and is coming from afar I also will be waiting for the route announcement(s) with bated breath.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 28 April, 2019, 06:59:42 pm
Presumably that means one more control than 2017. As one who is planning to be a volunteer and is coming from afar I also will be waiting for the route announcement(s) with bated breath.
Not necessarily. 70km could be split between a number of sections with mandatory routing preventing people using busier more direct roads.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 29 April, 2019, 09:18:12 am
In some ways a 3am finish might be more civilised than an 11am one for those of us at the back. But I'm sure it'll work out.

For the 125 hour group, the cut-off times will be between 11am and 5pm.

Exactly - whereas presumably in 1400km form the cut-offs were between 3am and 9am.

There were a lot of people heading out of St Ives into the night, having to ride tired through the early hours in 2015, as a consequence of headwinds in the Fens. 
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 30 April, 2019, 12:50:04 am
I'm curious as to where the additional 70 kms are going into the route.  I suppose I'll just have to wait until Alwyn stops teasing us  ;D

We're using some of the distance to shift the route through Yorkshire further east. Wilkyboy knows more than me at this stage, he is looking after the route while I book controls. To facilitate this, we have new controls in 2021 at Hessle and Malton. The Malton control(s) are only 20km further from the start than Pocklington, making them very reachable on the first day.

Hopefully having two controls in Malton and a third in Hessle will ease some of the problems we had in 2013 and 2017. It also means we can offer many more start slots before 09:00 to people riding a 125 hour limit.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: grams on 30 April, 2019, 10:26:17 am
I feel the need to push back against the tone of the "more hills, isn't that grand?" stuff in the FB post about this. I hope an eye is being kept on trying not to repeat the high DNF/hors delais rate last time. The challenge is meant to be riding 1500 km, isn't it? It shouldn't need extra obstacles!
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 30 April, 2019, 10:37:44 am
The high DNF in 2017 was down to Danish hills rather than British hills. 2021 will have more hills because it is longer. But I doubt it will be much hillier, as in overall average climb.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: slugbait on 30 April, 2019, 05:26:53 pm
The high DNF in 2017 was down to Danish hills rather than British hills. 2021 will have more hills because it is longer. But I doubt it will be much hillier, as in overall average climb.

Danish hills? Clearly those were Dutch mountains. (My apologies, but for Dutch folk like me being able to cycle into endless headwinds is a source of national pride.)

Anyway, thanks for the update. I'm sure 1500k or 1425k won't make much of a difference. Either way looking forward to LEL in 2021.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: jiberjaber on 30 April, 2019, 05:36:45 pm
The high DNF in 2017 was down to Danish hills rather than British hills. 2021 will have more hills because it is longer. But I doubt it will be much hillier, as in overall average climb.

Danish hills? Clearly those were Dutch mountains. (My apologies, but for Dutch folk like me being able to cycle into endless headwinds is a source of national pride.)

Anyway, thanks for the update. I'm sure 1500k or 1425k won't make much of a difference. Either way looking forward to LEL in 2021.

I was quite looking forward to climbing hills of bacon....  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Phil W on 30 April, 2019, 05:40:27 pm
With the extra you could go over to Stanhope to Hexham, bit of Hadrians Wall, Kielder Water and on to Innerleithin.  The possibilities abound.  I can also eat my way through Danish bacon hills.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Alex B on 30 April, 2019, 06:36:41 pm
The high DNF in 2017 was down to Danish hills rather than British hills ...

From what I gathered the exceptionally high DNF rate (43% was it?) was largely down to a naive approach - riders not appreciating that their performance would deteriorate as the ride went on, and so not planning accordingly.

As to the new route - the Yorkshire Wolds sounds like an excellent addition. It looks to me like the event is going from strength to strength.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 30 April, 2019, 07:32:09 pm
Wilkyboy knows more than me at this stage, he is looking after the route while I book controls.

Alwyn and I have been working on this on and off since the end of LEL 2017, and intensively since the middle of last year.

I'm really excited by the possibilities that mandatory-route gives us, as we should be able to hit very close to 1500km and visit some really lovely new parts of the country, while retaining most of the classic landmarks  :thumbsup:

Alwyn has already ridden some of the critical new sections and given them the nod.  I hope to ride all the new bits in the coming months so that I can get a feel for the roads and tweak as necessary.  We're hoping to have a draft-final route in place by the summer, which we will then use to reach out to friends up and down the route for additional local knowledge and feedback.  Alwyn will do the Big Reveal when he's happy we're close enough.

And just to add: I feel honoured to be working with Alwyn on this and I hope we deliver another classic route for y'all  O:-)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 30 April, 2019, 07:38:59 pm
From what I gathered the exceptionally high DNF rate (43% was it?) was largely down to a naive approach - riders not appreciating that their performance would deteriorate as the ride went on, and so not planning accordingly.

This is a fair analysis. You could argue the vicious headwinds merely exposed poor tactics. My fault partly. I was very keen that folk started late filled the control in Spalding, so assured them they could make the time up if they were behind on day one. Unfortunately it seems the 'make time up' bit got glossed over.

I think what also caught a lot of people out was how tough the ride was. My warnings about weather were met with an indulgent chuckle by a lot of Asian riders, who seemed to presume that we don't really have weather in the UK. They won't make that mistake again!
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 30 April, 2019, 08:00:52 pm
And just to add: I feel honoured to be working with Alwyn on this and I hope we deliver another classic route for y'all  O:-)

Aww shucks! The LEL route has been passed to some illustrious routemeisters in the past. It's about time you took on the challenge, especially since you wrote so much of the 2017 route.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: bairn again on 30 April, 2019, 08:34:34 pm
And just to add: I feel honoured to be working with Alwyn on this and I hope we deliver another classic route for y'all  O:-)

Aww shucks! The LEL route has been passed to some illustrious routemeisters in the past. It's about time you took on the challenge, especially since you wrote so much of the 2017 route.

looks like a dream team that ^

feel free to get in touch if you want any help for any of the northernmost bits. 
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Planet X Paul on 30 April, 2019, 11:32:12 pm
The high DNF in 2017 was down to Danish hills rather than British hills ...

From what I gathered the exceptionally high DNF rate (43% was it?) was largely down to a naive approach - riders not appreciating that their performance would deteriorate as the ride went on, and so not planning accordingly.


Really ?  Can you elaborate, as I would have thought any cyclist would appreciate that their performance would deteriorate the further they went.  And how could they plan any differently?  I've been advised by a few PBP & LEL finishers not to plan as any plan goes out of the window after the first day.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 30 April, 2019, 11:38:19 pm
There were a lot of people close to the closing times (or behind them) on the way north with a tailwind who thought they'd hold the same speed or better heading south with tired legs.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Alex B on 01 May, 2019, 06:09:53 am
Really ?  Can you elaborate, as I would have thought any cyclist would appreciate that their performance would deteriorate the further they went.  And how could they plan any differently?  I've been advised by a few PBP & LEL finishers not to plan as any plan goes out of the window after the first day.

As LWaB says, from observation this was what happened. Phil W produced some graphs from the rider data showing this too.

As to plans, it's right that a lot of very experienced randonneurs will advise you not to plan. And it's good advice ... for very experienced randonneurs, who will have an innate understanding of how these events go. For the inexperienced, especially if not super strong, having at least some plan for how to manage time is wise, even if it's simply that they should spend less time riding to Edinburgh than riding back. Ultimately, if riders don't have a plan the event has one for them (i.e. to ride 1430 km in 117 hours).

PBP helps riders by having control closing times such that it's necessary to ride the first half of the event in less time than the second half. Something similar for LEL would help less seasoned riders grok time management I think.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 01 May, 2019, 06:44:09 am
The profile for 2021 will be different, which I expect will have an impact. I expect there to be more people with years of completing LRM events, and fewer plucky newbies.

Having said that, increasing the finish rate is not a priority for me at all.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Nick Firth on 01 May, 2019, 07:56:01 am
Riders are better prepared for PBP because of the qualifying distances, LEL can be attempted without riding the longer distances, I've ridden LEL & talked to riders who have only completed a 200 that season, if the weather is bad like it was in 2017 & you have not done an SR or some serious touring it's going to be a big challenge.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Planet X Paul on 01 May, 2019, 08:44:54 am
Really ?  Can you elaborate, as I would have thought any cyclist would appreciate that their performance would deteriorate the further they went.  And how could they plan any differently?  I've been advised by a few PBP & LEL finishers not to plan as any plan goes out of the window after the first day.

As LWaB says, from observation this was what happened. Phil W produced some graphs from the rider data showing this too.

As to plans, it's right that a lot of very experienced randonneurs will advise you not to plan. And it's good advice ... for very experienced randonneurs, who will have an innate understanding of how these events go. For the inexperienced, especially if not super strong, having at least some plan for how to manage time is wise, even if it's simply that they should spend less time riding to Edinburgh than riding back. Ultimately, if riders don't have a plan the event has one for them (i.e. to ride 1430 km in 117 hours).

PBP helps riders by having control closing times such that it's necessary to ride the first half of the event in less time than the second half. Something similar for LEL would help less seasoned riders grok time management I think.

It was my first time on LEL (but not I'm not new to doing ultra type events) and I planned it to death and still failed.  I planned a reducing average speed between controls, time stopped at controls and sleep time.  But what I didn't plan for was not being woken by the control staff and losing all the time I had gained on the first day.  My shoes going missing resulting in panic until they were found. My chamois cream being stolen resulting in having to go off route to buy some more.  Getting no sleep at a control and wasting 2 hours shivering as there were no blankets meaning I had to get more sleep at the next control.  And the headwind.  But you live and learn....  Perhaps next time I will factor in all these things.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: S2L on 01 May, 2019, 08:55:39 am
Is it not about the experience?
Whether 80% finish within the time limit or only 50% manage, what difference does it make? As long as they all have a "good time", being that A or B type... who cares how many finish...
I think it would be sad if there was a push to be less inclusive towards newcomers. The fact that LEL is fully catered for, makes it more appealing to someone who has never covered that distance.
The hardened randonneurs who can sleep in a drainage pipe under a dual carriageway and live off Ginster pasties and Mars bars from a 24 hours petrol station can probably do it as a perm any time they like  :thumbsup:

Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: grams on 01 May, 2019, 09:22:40 am
This is a fair analysis. You could argue the vicious headwinds merely exposed poor tactics. My fault partly. I was very keen that folk started late filled the control in Spalding, so assured them they could make the time up if they were behind on day one. Unfortunately it seems the 'make time up' bit got glossed over.

My recollection is the advice given to all riders was that missing any closing time on the way north was fine. If this was only ever meant to target a specific group that never got out. Even at the time, I couldn't figure out for whom it might be a sensible strategy.

(in hindsight, the PBP model of having asymmetric *hard* closing times seems much better)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Planet X Paul on 01 May, 2019, 09:40:32 am
This is a fair analysis. You could argue the vicious headwinds merely exposed poor tactics. My fault partly. I was very keen that folk started late filled the control in Spalding, so assured them they could make the time up if they were behind on day one. Unfortunately it seems the 'make time up' bit got glossed over.

My recollection is the advice given to all riders was that missing any closing time on the way north was fine. If this was only ever meant to target a specific group that never got out. Even at the time, I couldn't figure out for whom it might be a sensible strategy.

(in hindsight, the PBP model of having asymmetric *hard* closing times seems much better)

Having never done PBP, if you are late at a control, are you forcibly retired from the event?  Do you still then have to get yourself back to the start?
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 01 May, 2019, 10:26:38 am
In 2017 I was making the film of the event. A very effective PR initiative prompted Cycling Plus to commission an article on LEL. I wrote a couple of treatments very soon after the event, in an attempt to avoid picking up too much from the web and blog posts. Here are those initial impressions.

Quote
A curious aspect of these long rides is music, especially as earworms; uncontrollable accompaniments to the journey. I’d met a rider from the US on PBP 2011, and we’d whiled away the hours chatting about blue-eyed soul. That led to him humming ‘Maneater’ by Hall and Oates for the next two days and nights. He reminded me of that at the LEL sign-in.

I was making a film, so I get ‘eye worms’ as well. I was constantly running templates into which the actual experience would fit. The overall idea I worked with was ‘Brigadoon’, a musical about a Scottish village which appears once every hundred years. The LEL village was on 1,400 pairs of wheels, spread out over 1,400 kilometres of road. It’s a temporary world, and a fascinating one, as the effects of extreme exhaustion and sleep-derivation give it a special character.

The danger is that the forecasting of the experience can become a self-defeating prophecy. Planning’s a big part of these rides, and boy do these people like to plan. Every move goes down on a spreadsheet for a lot of them. The collision of projection and reality comes as a shock to many.

Talking to the fastest is revealing. Anco de Jong trained with a few rapid 200 km excursions, as he likes to do the long ones every four years. Jasmine Muller, the current female 24 TT champion, started cycling to get to her ballet classes, and Marko Baloh, of Race Across America fame, found the conditions too cold and too wet for his liking. Marko and Chris Hopkinson, another stalwart of the Ultra Marathon Cycling Association, had hinted at an attempt at sub 60 hours, but rain, wind and mechanicals put paid to that dream. The main contenders also faced a combination of the Tour de France and Father Ted, with a succession of Mrs Doyles plying them with tea and cake.

Understatement is part of the culture of Audax, and Brits like to display their stiff upper lip by playing down the amount of climbing, even complaining about any flat bits. The organisers ride the route in sections, and each one is designed to be ‘interesting’. It all looks eminently sensible on paper, especially compared to PBP, with its more consistent ups and downs. When you string the whole thing together, it looks a bit different. There’s 12,000 metres of ascent, but it’s concentrated. Old hands know that, but even they were surprised by the inclusion of the Lincolnshire Wolds between the Humber Bridge and Louth. Nearly everyone was chastened by the Howardian Hills, North of York. That’s a roller coaster, guaranteed to annoy tandems, velomobiles and elliptigos.

Those with local knowledge simply rode around the Howardians, and the Lincolnshire and Yorkshire Wolds as well. In most countries, the published route is compulsory, often because there’s not a lot of choice. In England there’s choice galore, but the main governing factor is safety. Since the last running in 2013, I’ve made a number of tribute films for those lost on the roads around the world. Two cases were on Audax rides in Australia and New Zealand. Soon after this year’s start, we learned of the death of a noted Dutch Audaxer on the Transcontinental Race. That prompted a discussion with a controller about the media contingency plan for any such mishap on LEL.

The main hill avoidance routes are the A19, A63 and A18, heavily trafficked arterial routes, marginal for safety at the best of times. Most riders were using GPS tracks, so followed the official route as if on rails. They don’t seem to have maps, so the safety risk is under control, but I don’t actually want to be making any tribute videos as a result of LEL.

There was a vast amount of experience of riding in windy plains in the LEL peloton. Vicki Tyrer from Texas said that she didn’t go out on her bike with more than 30mph of breeze. The Fens were compared unfavourably with the Hungarian Puszta, and the Nullarbor Plain, which is 1,000 miles of featureless Australian desert. One rider declared that he was never riding RAAM, on the basis of his 40mph East Anglian headwind experience. Anco de Jong described a feeling of suspended animation, a sense in which turning the legs produced no perceivable progress. He was relatively lucky, it got windier as time went on, and he actually liked the Lincolnshire Wolds.

As I’d followed LEL, I’d seen a number of stories develop, and towards the end I had to resolve them. That’s made difficult by the way that the last validated finishes unfold over a period of 27 hours. There’s a group that set off at 5am on Sunday morning, with a 100 hour time allowance, and the last 116 Hour group set off at 4pm. Anco de Jong had finished at 7pm on the Tuesday, but was socialising at the finish control, thankfully. So I got an interview after I’d shot South from my hotel in Boston to cover the last 100 hour finishes. Then I returned to the St Ives control, before filming in Cambridge.

At St Ives, the controller asked me if I’d seen 500 to 600 missing riders on my travels. it was unclear if their absence was a by-product of planning, or simply a mystery. They had to be out there somewhere, but when would they turn up? Phil had to hand the control back on the following morning, and he wouldn’t be able to house the stragglers.



The following year Heather and I ended up forcing tea, sandwiches and cake onto Audaxers at Father Ted's house on the Mile Failte 1200 in Ireland. So my reference to Mrs Doyle was a self-fulfilling prophecy in itself.

This treatment is nearer to the published article. We provided the images as well, so the text was tailored to our best pictures.

Quote
Before London Edinburgh London 2017, the nearest I’d got to Thailand was seeing my mother play Anna in an amateur production of the ‘The King and I’. During LEL I saw over 60 Thai cyclists pit themselves against the the British terrain and weather.

I was filming the event, largely out of force of habit, and I was constantly asked if I was a ‘professional’. That question brought my mum’s acting and directing career to mind. I should have been mortified by the embarrassment of seeing her on stage, but she was actually very good, and went on to stage benefit shows which would pull in an audience of 10,000 in a week. Many of that audience would be the relatives of the cast, or supporters of the charity, so there’s a a bit of collusion about the standard of the performance, but the results were genuinely enjoyable.

I’ve been involved with LEL since 2001, when I first rode it. My partner Heather organised a control stop at the Langdon Beck Youth Hostel, the highest in Britain. Controls on an Audax exist to confirm that the riders are doing the distance, and to provide services through the night; feeding, sleeping and mechanical help.

The first few LELs from 1989 used main roads, mainly the A68. But that’s become unpleasant and unsafe in modern traffic conditions,  as the rider numbers have grown from 26 to over 1,400. The route now consists of the remotest routes imaginable between Loughton, on the edge of London, and Bonnyrigg on the edge of Edinburgh. The result is that the controls are the almost exclusive source of food and accommodation for the riders. The course does pass branches of Tesco and Lidl in Thirsk, but otherwise the main shops are Co-op and Spar convenience stores.

The controls are mainly small town secondary schools, with the school dinner staff providing the food, and with airbeds and blankets in the sports hall for tired riders. At Pocklington, that hall was a converted locomotive maintenance shed with 250 mattresses.

The LEL control managers take possession of the premises the day before the riders arrive, and adapt them as well as they can. Some controllers have experience to fall back on, but there can be no  rehearsal. The event is vastly bigger in scale than other Audax United Kingdom events, so it’s not just a case of scaling up the usual arrangements.

Each LEL has sought to project the experience of past rides on to the present. There’s been a lot of computer modelling of rider flows along the course, and that informs the phasing of the starts. However, the weather and rider behaviour tend to produce big gaps between prediction and reality.

Paris Brest Paris is the other main endurance ride of this type. That requires qualification via 200, 300, 400 and 600 kilometre rides, and provides more consistency from the field. LEL aims to embrace the current crop of riders from the ‘sportive’ and ‘charity’ ends of the distance riding spectrum.

Heather and I have seen five LELs and five Paris Brest Paris rides. PBP works at the next level, with 5,000 participants, but draws on an annual week-long cycling festival called Semaine Federale, which has over 10,000 riders on the road every day. PBP therefore has a greater depth of volunteer resource to draw on, explicit backing from government, and works with professional caterers.

But these are still volunteer events at heart. That implies give and take between the organisation and participants. There often isn’t a fence between the two, they’re the same people. There’s the same sense of collusion that we find in amateur music and theatre. Heather is also the volunteer secretary of a choral society, and they have professional soloists and instrumental players to add some polish. It will be interesting to see how LEL develops. As long as it stays challenging, diverse and inclusive, I can foresee a bright future.   
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ivan on 01 May, 2019, 10:56:31 am
Having never done PBP, if you are late at a control, are you forcibly retired from the event?  Do you still then have to get yourself back to the start?

PBP has the tradition of Hors Delai (finishing out of time and not validated but still recorded) so most people continue riding round. I guess a few jump on a train, and for those in a bad way, the route controllers (patrolling in cars) might send out a broom waggon but of course they don't want to publicise this too much - the guy I stopped to assist wasn't really in a fit state to ride anywhere. The main issue is the controls will shut as soon as their closing time has been reached, so you can find yourself pretty much on your own once that happens. Last time as we started in the very last group (84h, Monday morning) and were grinding it out on fixed at the back, pretty much all I saw on the way back were the 90h dropouts struggling to get round at all.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 01 May, 2019, 11:23:28 am
Before 2007 there were a small number of HDs, possibly those who'd made the last control, but not finished in time. 2007 was very difficult, and riders were encouraged to ride back to the finish, and that was acknowledged as HD to bring the drop-out rate down from over 30%.
2011 saw the introduction of timing chips. The finish-line recorder is only turned off when the final finish time is reached. As the start is staggered, you can still be recorded when you are out off time, or HD as it's known.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Planet X Paul on 01 May, 2019, 11:58:47 am
Having never done PBP, if you are late at a control, are you forcibly retired from the event?  Do you still then have to get yourself back to the start?

PBP has the tradition of Hors Delai (finishing out of time and not validated but still recorded) so most people continue riding round. I guess a few jump on a train, and for those in a bad way, the route controllers (patrolling in cars) might send out a broom waggon but of course they don't want to publicise this too much - the guy I stopped to assist wasn't really in a fit state to ride anywhere. The main issue is the controls will shut as soon as their closing time has been reached, so you can find yourself pretty much on your own once that happens. Last time as we started in the very last group (84h, Monday morning) and were grinding it out on fixed at the back, pretty much all I saw on the way back were the 90h dropouts struggling to get round at all.

Interesting.  My only experience of French organised ultra running events (Ultra Trail du Mont Blanc Race) is that if you arrive at a control after the cut-off, you are forced to retire and are transported back to the finish venue.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 01 May, 2019, 12:11:34 pm
I'm curious as to where the additional 70 kms are going into the route.  I suppose I'll just have to wait until Danial stops teasing us  ;D

A bit more of the extra distance will create a new route to our new “Edinburgh” control, which will be in Dunfermline at the brand new, huge, high school. This allows two crossings of the now traffic-free Forth road bridge. You don’t get to ride on the road, but the path is really wide and they’ve upgraded the access onto the bridge. There’s even a pedestrian crossing on it now!
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 01 May, 2019, 12:13:44 pm
From what I gathered the exceptionally high DNF rate (43% was it?) was largely down to a naive approach - riders not appreciating that their performance would deteriorate as the ride went on, and so not planning accordingly.
Really ?  Can you elaborate, as I would have thought any cyclist would appreciate that their performance would deteriorate the further they went.  And how could they plan any differently?  I've been advised by a few PBP & LEL finishers not to plan as any plan goes out of the window after the first day.
There are 'planners' and 'plan avoiders' and I guess a spectrum of approaches in between.
On LEL you 'planned it to death', Paul. My plan (start V) survived till I deliberately chose to take an option (which I had recognised during planning) to stop at Alston in the dusk of Day3, as opposed to pushing on to Barnard Castle in the dark over Yad Moss.
I think that it's worth investing an effort into a plan and starting with it but recognising that 'stuff happens'. For example there may be a nice tailwind going north (or indeed a headwind - an aside: I wonder whether a strong headwind to the Humber in 2017 would have had the same effect on DNF rate as the Thursday Fen winds did).
(An aside: weather forecasts posted (and renewed) regularly at each control would be a 'good idea'. Just as they do in YHA youth hostels. But perhaps people are expected to access this on their phones, if they want to.)
A plan needs to build in a safety margin for this 'stuff'. But if you can't ride fast enough, a realistic plan (ie one reflecting the speeds you can achieve, decreasing as the ride progresses, probably) can't include this margin (and from your reports, Paul, this sounds like what happened in summer 2017).
Fwiw my (newbie) PBP plan envisages riding speeds of 26kph (with trains for first 200) dropping to 21kph, allowing 30 minutes at each control and 12 hours sleep. Within our weekly pub group others' plans are: ride hard outbound not stopping (to sleep) till Brest, and tour back. But I ride better with some decent daily sleep.
"Do you still then have to get yourself back to the start?" What options had you in mind? The LEL controls reportedly went 'the extra mile' to help particularly our foreign guests who'd decided to pack, to get back to London (by train).
A bit more of the extra distance will create a new route to our new “Edinburgh” control, which will be in Dunfermline at the brand new, huge, high school. This allows two crossings of the now traffic-free Forth road bridge. You don’t get to ride on the road, but the path is really wide and they’ve upgraded the access onto the bridge. There’s even a pedestrian crossing on it now!
Excellent!
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: eddum on 01 May, 2019, 01:31:53 pm
The high DNF in 2017 was down to Danish hills rather than British hills ...

From what I gathered the exceptionally high DNF rate (43% was it?) was largely down to a naive approach - riders not appreciating that their performance would deteriorate as the ride went on, and so not planning accordingly.


Really ?  Can you elaborate, as I would have thought any cyclist would appreciate that their performance would deteriorate the further they went.  And how could they plan any differently?  I've been advised by a few PBP & LEL finishers not to plan as any plan goes out of the window after the first day.

Not so much naïve as I recall but unfortunate...  similar analysis from the previous LEL seemed to show a lot of people close to or behind time up to Scotland making it up on the return. ... especially the fens being favourable.
For 2017 this was definitely not the case .. and riders who might have recovered the previous time couldn't.

(We were already behind our plan and unlikely to make it up even in good conditions but lets say that it didn't help matters!)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Phil W on 01 May, 2019, 01:52:29 pm
The fens were not favourable on the return in 2013; there was a stonking headwind that year as well.   It was also 34C in the shade and 38C in direct sunlight.  Time was certainly not being made up.

You have to assume that at best you will maintain your contingency, but most likely lose a bit of time, returning across the fens
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 May, 2019, 01:53:39 pm
I'm curious as to where the additional 70 kms are going into the route.  I suppose I'll just have to wait until Danial stops teasing us  ;D

A bit more of the extra distance will create a new route to our new “Edinburgh” control, which will be in Dunfermline at the brand new, huge, high school. This allows two crossings of the now traffic-free Forth road bridge. You don’t get to ride on the road, but the path is really wide and they’ve upgraded the access onto the bridge. There’s even a pedestrian crossing on it now!

That crossing is a bit of a pain, it'd be better if once the works are done, they opened both cycleways and made them directional.
The main carriageway is tempting but it's an all vehicles prohibition with a limited number of exemptions (local buses, taxis and <125cc motorbikes), the justification for not putting cycles on the main carriageway seems to be the expansion joints suitability. It'd be much more pleasant than dealing with oncoming cycles while weaving through hoardes of pedestrian tourists.

Also as Iroromono and I found out wind conditions get scary long before the bridge is shut to cycles and pedestrians. (60mph gusts I think).


Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: eddum on 01 May, 2019, 02:42:56 pm
The fens were not favourable on the return in 2013; there was a stonking headwind that year as well.   It was also 34C in the shade and 38C in direct sunlight.  Time was certainly not being made up.

You have to assume that at best you will maintain your contingency, but most likely lose a bit of time, returning across the fens

Interesting... maybe my recollection is wrong. I thought the time in hand plots showed a lot made up time on the way home in 2013... maybe they were just hardier.. or less naïve :D
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 01 May, 2019, 02:43:14 pm
I met with Amey last year, and they suggested that we use both sides and make route directional. It strikes me as a good way to manage numbers.

What surprised me though was how few people walk and cycle across the bridge. The pedestrian and cyclists counts were pretty low and amounted to dozens of people a day.

The only part of the crossing that concerns me is the access point on the south side. That could be a bit of a pinch point and I hope that Amey will lower the bollards for the duration of the event.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 01 May, 2019, 02:55:01 pm
use of the Forth Road Bridge would certainly allow iconic photographs of bikes, riders with Forth Rail Bridge in the background.  Fifeing Eijit has a point about high winds, but my question would be how often in August is the road closed for high winds?  I would suspect its more often in the winter and equinotical months.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Phil W on 01 May, 2019, 03:28:24 pm
The fens were not favourable on the return in 2013; there was a stonking headwind that year as well.   It was also 34C in the shade and 38C in direct sunlight.  Time was certainly not being made up.

You have to assume that at best you will maintain your contingency, but most likely lose a bit of time, returning across the fens

Interesting... maybe my recollection is wrong. I thought the time in hand plots showed a lot made up time on the way home in 2013... maybe they were just hardier.. or less naïve :D

My brevet card from 2013 tells me that going south from Edinburgh

I gained 6 minutes to Traquair
I gained 36 mins to Eskdalemuir
I gained  1 hour 7 mins to Brampton (Slept here)
I lost 1 hour 49 to Barnard Castle
I gained 1 hour 40 mins to Thirsk
I gained 47 mins to Pocklington
I gained 28 mins to Market Rasen
I lost 2 hours 14 mins to Kirton (Fens)
I gained 3 mins to St Ives (Fens)
I gained 5 mins to Gt Easton (Fens then appearance of hedges!)
I lost 9 mins to Loughton (I took a fair time out at Great Easton recovering from the day)

So net the Fens southbound took just over 2 hours out of the buffer I had built up in 2013.  The faster riders who made it across the Fens the previous night will have fared better, but for anyone in those Fens on the final day, it was far from an easy "let's make up some time" ride in 2013. 

I do remember a fair proportion of us pushed on through the night to Market Rasen to leave approx 300km for the final push.

Interestingly the buffer I had at Edinburgh was within 30 mins of the buffer when I finished. So if I'd arrived in Edinburgh with no buffer built up it would likely have been touch and go on the time limits coming back in 2013.  Not having a buffer later on can also lead to you choosing not to take enough rest or take time to eat enough which can lead you into a downward spiral.


Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 May, 2019, 03:39:43 pm
I met with Amey last year, and they suggested that we use both sides and make route directional. It strikes me as a good way to manage numbers.

What surprised me though was how few people walk and cycle across the bridge. The pedestrian and cyclists counts were pretty low and amounted to dozens of people a day.

The only part of the crossing that concerns me is the access point on the south side. That could be a bit of a pinch point and I hope that Amey will lower the bollards for the duration of the event.

Cool :-)

The Forth Bridge is fairly remote from commuting traffic, it's a surprisingly long way into central Edinburgh from SQ and Dunfermline's a reasonable distance away too.
Which will reduce pedestrians to the odd hardy commuter and tourists.
I thought there was a fairly decent sized bunch of dedicated cycle commuters though.


use of the Forth Road Bridge would certainly allow iconic photographs of bikes, riders with Forth Rail Bridge in the background.  Fifeing Eijit has a point about high winds, but my question would be how often in August is the road closed for high winds?  I would suspect its more often in the winter and equinotical months.

Aye, most likely during Atlantic storm season which August usually isn't part of.
The point was more that crossing the bridge is uncomfortable at wind speeds well below the closure speed.

Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 01 May, 2019, 04:00:13 pm
I'll be interested to see how a Forth Bridge route works out. Michael Broadwith took the A73 and A70 from Abington to the bridge on his LEJOG record. The Pentland Hills present a barrier, making that the most direct route. The alternative is A701 and suburban Edinburgh.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Phil W on 01 May, 2019, 04:08:26 pm
For those who haven't been on the old Forth road bridge; here are some shots from the last few km of the Highlands 1000 last year.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/nn6620ax1o6a0wr/2018060314120042.JPG?raw=1)

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/gsr6qvknossfvew/2018060314160044.JPG?raw=1)

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/a01pfs2jxfqf4ej/20180601314160043.jpg?raw=1)

Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ivo on 01 May, 2019, 06:18:54 pm

Soon after this year’s start, we learned of the death of a noted Dutch Audaxer on the Transcontinental Race. That prompted a discussion with a controller about the media contingency plan for any such mishap on LEL.

Frank died the night before registration day. Part of the Dutch contingent heard about it on registration day. Over dinner we decided to start since Frank would have liked it that way. Still I had some issues with it during the first night. The absence of other riders on the road at that moment wasn't a help either (they were still overcrowding the Louth control).
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 01 May, 2019, 07:43:56 pm

Soon after this year’s start, we learned of the death of a noted Dutch Audaxer on the Transcontinental Race. That prompted a discussion with a controller about the media contingency plan for any such mishap on LEL.

Frank died the night before registration day. Part of the Dutch contingent heard about it on registration day. Over dinner we decided to start since Frank would have liked it that way. Still I had some issues with it during the first night. The absence of other riders on the road at that moment wasn't a help either (they were still overcrowding the Louth control).

I would have heard about Frank from you Ivo. I tend to think of the event starting from when the cameras start rolling. I don't have that on video, so it's not pinned down in the way that lots of other details are.

I'm most interested in the dynamics of volunteer-run events these days. I addressed that in a section of the article I wrote for Cycling-Plus.

Quote
That may seem like a long preamble to a report on the event, but it explains why you can’t take what riders say about the event at face value. Loyalty to hundreds of keen volunteers means that you’re not going to see a ‘Trip Advisor’ style review of LEL, amusing though that would be.

The route is ‘out and back’, and diverges North of Brampton, in Cumbria, for a clockwise tour of Southern Scotland, taking in controls at Moffat, Edinburgh, Innerleithen and Eskdalemuir. Eskdalemuir’s principal industries are forestry and Buddhism, with the Samye Ling temple playing a prominent role. It’s quiet enough to be the home to a seismic recording station which monitors underground nuclear bomb tests as far away as North Korea. Asian riders, used to asking directions in their crowded countries, were reduced to wondering if the sheep might be able to direct them.

No town on LEL outside the M25 or Edinburgh Ring Road has more than 15,000 inhabitants, most are below 5,000, many below 1,000. Eskdalemuir has just 256 people. Most riders like to get back to Brampton as soon as possible, to access their bags. There are two bag drops per rider, and Brampton is popular for those. The result is that Brampton gets overwhelmed at some point. It would be better to have a bigger control, but there isn’t a lot of choice. The field behaves like traffic on the M25. There are sudden waves, the French call it ‘circulation accordion’, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accordion_effect and it’s difficult to predict where the squeeze will come. Riders get bunched due to the terrain and the weather, both of which are wildly variable.

Audaxers call this ‘The Bulge’, and those in the know book hotels where they expect controls to be under siege. Most long Audaxes are underpriced, and for the faster riders, they represent fantastic value. But there comes a point where demand at controls exceeds supply, and any novice economist knows that the solution is a higher price. LEL costs more on each running, economies of scale work in reverse, as there are more formal hurdles to leap. In 2001, 2005 and 2009 I saved newspaper vouchers to get a discount at Lidl for tinned ravioli, rice pudding and biscuits for Heather’s control. This time the facilities company for the High School at Brampton handled the catering, with overtime rates during the continuous 63 hour opening period. A controller is now a manager coordinating a multinational mix of volunteers, school staff, and casual workers. Much of the time, the controls seemed over-manned, as no-one knew when ‘The Bulge’ might appear.

The ride is well worth doing, passing through some of the most unlikely looking parts of the UK, giving the impression that it’s about as populated as New Zealand. The presence of an Alpine climb in the North Pennines caused some surprise. It certainly took me aback when I first went to Yad Moss in 2001.  That year was fairly benign, with just headwinds to deal with. 2005 was much the same, but 2009 was extremely grim for most. This year you were guaranteed to get rained on at some point, luck dictated where. You were guaranteed headwinds, and that’s probably what led to 34% of the starters dropping out, or finishing outside the time limit. I’ve yet to see a breakdown of that by nationality or experience, dyed-in-the-wool Audaxers finished as usual.

There are numerous accounts available online, and they give a flavour of the conditions that were faced. One of the most telling developments was that some of those who had previously stopped at hotels on route, relied on the organisation for sleeping. Admittedly they were Yorkshiremen, so the increased cost might have been a factor, but the arrangements worked perfectly well for the vast majority.

My overall view is that LEL and PBP can only be judged as a communal celebration of long distance cycling, and both succeed in those terms. If that appeals, then it’s for you at the advertised price. If you can’t get your head around some of the idealism, then they’re both still well worth doing. Just sit down, read between the lines, and work out how much you want to spend on a good night’s sleep between crisp white sheets, rather than under removal mens’ blankets and on an airbed.

Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: marylogic on 01 May, 2019, 08:02:09 pm
I stay in Dunfermline so more than happy to help with any route queries at this end (my son goes to the High school so I know the roads very well)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 01 May, 2019, 09:50:46 pm
I stay in Dunfermline so more than happy to help with any route queries at this end (my son goes to the High school so I know the roads very well)

Cor, thank you very much. The high school will be our control point, I'm happy to report. It's enormous, eh?

We take the back road on the other side of the train line to get to the school. It means using that slightly ugly underpass, but it does cut out the main road into town.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: marylogic on 01 May, 2019, 10:16:48 pm
The back road and underpass are a good route in. The only issue with the underpass is that there is often broken glass, but i’d be happy to go and do a bit of sweeping before the riders are due in.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 02 May, 2019, 07:00:50 am
Yeah, it's a pretty scurfy underpass. Thanks hugely for the offer to help tidy it up beforehand. I'm sure the controller Daniel will appreciate the help. If I could trouble you to complete our volunteer form on our website when it launches next month, I'll have all your details then.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: marylogic on 02 May, 2019, 07:42:20 am
Yes, I will do. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 02 May, 2019, 08:14:44 am
Is it not about the experience?
Whether 80% finish within the time limit or only 50% manage, what difference does it make? As long as they all have a "good time", being that A or B type... who cares how many finish...

I disagree. Most folk prefer success to failure, particularly for something that you get one chance at every four years at best. Some riders react quite badly to not finishing a brevet in time, so not a "good time" for them and the negative effects on those riders can linger. Success breeds success and the converse is also true.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: S2L on 02 May, 2019, 08:33:56 am
I disagree. Most folk prefer success to failure, particularly for something that you get one chance at every four years at best. Some riders react quite badly to not finishing a brevet in time, so not a "good time" for them and the negative effects on those riders can linger. Success breeds success and the converse is also true.

Surely an opportunity to learn that you can't always succeed in life.
funny enough, I have finally managed to obtain half a page on our workplace newsletter to talk about something else that is not someone's success or someone's new born babies...
Last issue was cycling to work...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: mattc on 02 May, 2019, 08:49:11 am
It's mainly about expectations.

There are plenty of examples of enduring events/challenges where hardly anyone succeeds. (The Barkley "Marathon" being the recent example fresh in my mind. Whilst helping on LEL2013 I chatted to a rider near the front, who had failed abysmally at Barkley earlier that year. He seemed quite content with both scenarios.) Attempts on Everest were very popular, even before anyone succeeded!

There is also the matter of logistics - the most convenient way to get to the finish of most Audaxes is to ride down the official route. If you are unable to do that, life can get very complex and/or expensive - who wants to worry about that before an event?
 Some events have bail-outs almost built in. (The multi-loop format of Barkley is an example)

(Is it a "snowflake" thing to never risk failure??)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 02 May, 2019, 09:05:44 am
I figured that the first replies would be variations on the theme of 'failure is character-building'. If the failure rate of a brevet (note: not a race renowned for DNFing folk) is too high, either the conditions were unexpectedly horrendous or the organiser or riders have misjudged something - perhaps by attracting riders unprepared for the rigours of their event.

You see the riders who fail and come back, because they've come back. The other ones? They've gone away, so you never notice them.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: S2L on 02 May, 2019, 09:14:33 am
I figured that the first replies would be variations on the theme of 'failure is character-building'. If the failure rate of a brevet is too high, either the conditions were unexpectedly horrendous or the organiser or riders have misjudged something - perhaps by attracting riders unprepared for the rigours of their event.

I think the challenge is laid out quite clearly... it's 1400+ km over a set period of time. The terrain is not prohibitive, weather is a question mark always, so as per above, it's about managing expectations. If I decide to enter 2021, it will most likely be my first LRM, so failure is an option. I doubt time will be an issue for me, it's more likely to be a case whether I can cycle 300+ km a day or my knees will give up early
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 02 May, 2019, 09:23:13 am
Happily I have my rider surveys, which over 400 riders replied to in 2017.

In private, riders do not hold back on their opinions and some of the responses I got were profoundly chastening. I take these responses seriously and the high DNF rate was not a concern, either conceptually or personally.

If it’s not a priority for them, it’s not a priority for me either.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 02 May, 2019, 09:23:30 am
Sure, there is always a risk of DNFing a long brevet but the majority of properly prepared riders should finish. Time limits are set to be somewhat challenging but quite achievable by the 'average rider'.

PBP has the longest history and largest population of riders, so statistics are easy. About 1 in 7 DNF PBP in a good year and about 2 in 7 DNF in a bad year. There have been several 1200s with DNF rates of 1 in 2 starters. I'd say that something was obviously wrong with those events, in the absence of horrendous weather. Those events were DNFing the majority of the average riders. In between those statistics is a reasonable threshold for DNF but I'm not sure where that is.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: S2L on 02 May, 2019, 09:43:40 am
Sure, there is always a risk of DNFing a long brevet but the majority of properly prepared riders should finish. Time limits are set to be somewhat challenging but quite achievable by the 'average rider'.


I know 3 people who didn't finish LEL 2017... none of them had a time issue, all of them developed some form of pain or injury that prevented them to finish...
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: mattc on 02 May, 2019, 10:12:29 am
Sure, there is always a risk of DNFing a long brevet but the majority of properly prepared riders should finish. Time limits are set to be somewhat challenging but quite achievable by the 'average rider'.


I know 3 people who didn't finish LEL 2017... none of them had a time issue, all of them developed some form of pain or injury that prevented them to finish...
Time is almost always an issue! Are these people still riding bikes? If so, I would think they could have completed LEL2017... eventually ... given time off to fix/moderate their pain/injury.

[You don't give details, so *I* can't be more specific than that :) ]
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 02 May, 2019, 10:18:32 am
Sure, there is always a risk of DNFing a long brevet but the majority of properly prepared riders should finish. Time limits are set to be somewhat challenging but quite achievable by the 'average rider'.

PBP has the longest history and largest population of riders, so statistics are easy. About 1 in 7 DNF PBP in a good year and about 2 in 7 DNF in a bad year. There have been several 1200s with DNF rates of 1 in 2 starters. I'd say that something was obviously wrong with those events, in the absence of horrendous weather. Those events were DNFing the majority of the average riders. In between those statistics is a reasonable threshold for DNF but I'm not sure where that is.
Please could you offer from your wide experience examples of long brevets where the majority of riders didn't finish (in time). Where could one find/research those stats? As a relative newcomer, I can only think of the first Mille Pennines (2016) only 38 out 90? finished: btw I suspect "the majority of properly prepared riders [did] finish" MP1K 2016. I was not among that elite but, on the plus side, I did return to finish the business with a successful (if lanterne rouge) ride in 2017. I was better prepared, had a better plan (informed by the previous year's experience) and the conditions were better. The ride's finish rate was near 2/3rds, and that success rate was replicated last year (with me in the kitchen / behind the counter for 3 nights, that time).
Long rides are hard - organisers can offer and publicise the challenge, design an attractive and safe route with accessible start/finish, maybe select a time of year when ephemeral and weather conditions are benign, describe as much or as little support as they wish, deliver that with the help of volunteers (in the main) for all riders, hope that the event captures riders' imaginations, that the entries roll in, and that the DNSs are few. After that it's up to each individual rider and their mount.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: S2L on 02 May, 2019, 10:19:40 am

Time is almost always an issue! Are these people still riding bikes? If so, I would think they could have completed LEL2017... eventually ... given time off to fix/moderate their pain/injury.


Given a couple of months, they could have probably completed, but it's pedantic... the point is that it wasn't a case of being out of time by a few hours or a day
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: mattc on 02 May, 2019, 10:39:38 am

Time is almost always an issue! Are these people still riding bikes? If so, I would think they could have completed LEL2017... eventually ... given time off to fix/moderate their pain/injury.


Given a couple of months, they could have probably completed, but it's pedantic... the point is that it wasn't a case of being out of time by a few hours or a day
As you haven't given any details, I have no idea if this stands up. [Most injuries can be managed by reduced effort and/or speed.]

And in this case I assume you mean "pedantic" in the sense of "yes, you're right".
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: teethgrinder on 02 May, 2019, 11:09:54 am
I don't know what an organiser can actually do about DNFs other than plan a faster route. In essence, it's covering a set distance in a set time limit and those boundaries are unmoveable. London to Edinburgh and back will inevitably mean hills and without a hefty detour will include the fens.
People ride for their own reasons. Having a very high DNF rate will attract some and deter others and vice versa. 2017 was a lot windier than I'd expect. 2013 was bad enough but 2017 was much worse. It is what it is and I think the only thing you can do is to as accurately as possible, inform people of what they will and could be up against.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 02 May, 2019, 12:17:00 pm

Please could you offer from your wide experience examples of long brevets where the majority of riders didn't finish (in time). Where could one find/research those stats? As a relative newcomer, I can only think of the first Mille Pennines (2016) only 38 out 90? finished: btw I suspect "the majority of properly prepared riders [did] finish" MP1K 2016. I was not among that elite but, on the plus side, I did return to finish the business with a successful (if lanterne rouge) ride in 2017. I was better prepared, had a better plan (informed by the previous year's experience) and the conditions were better. The ride's finish rate was near 2/3rds, and that success rate was replicated last year (with me in the kitchen / behind the counter for 3 nights, that time).


I set out to film MP1K in 2016. I'd never made it as far as the North York Moors when filming related rides before, and planned to get a good night's sleep at the Askrigg control. That ride covers most of the 'designated' national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty, and that's what I was aiming to cover.
I arrived at Askrigg to find that one of the two volunteers in the kitchen had gone to Caterrick to top up on supplies. I spent all night in the kitchen, still in my waterproof trousers and wellingtons, trying to conjure up meals from non-existent ingredients.

Meanwhile, a high proportion of the airbeds were proving to be punctured. There weren't any blankets. On a previous event there hadn't been space in the transport to take them to the control. On this occasion some informed participants had packed mattresses, sleeping bags, and even tents. So much time was spent loading and unloading bags from the hired van. I could go into further detail, but it was an amateur event, run on a relative shoestring, so the experienced participants build in work-rounds.

I think that a lot of DNFs result from a linear conception of the whole process. The all-in nature of the provision reinforces that. That's why I referred to the Accordion Effect upthread.

Quote
In physics, the accordion effect, known also as the slinky effect, concertina effect, elastic band effect, and string instability, occurs when fluctuations in the motion of a travelling body causes disruptions in the flow of elements following it. This can happen in road traffic, foot marching, bicycle and motor racing, and, in general, to processes in a pipeline. These are examples of nonlinear processes. The accordion effect generally decreases the throughput of the system in which it occurs.


This is important when riders are confronted by a queue. If you've already paid for the thing at the end of the queue, you are likelier to stick it out. Audax seems to appeal to 'non-linear' thinkers, those who 'think around' obstacles, often because they're used to critical path analysis. So that core of experienced participants are equipped to predict and surmount obstacles as they appear.

LWAB is an Audaxer with wide experience, and also a civil engineer. So if he wasn't able to finish a ride, I'd be concerned about the route. But all these project-orientated participants seem to be fascinated by the challenge of structuring the event to produce the optimum outcome. The main approaches seem to be more resource, and more modelling, and now a mandatory route. The logical end-point might be a ride on the Euraudax model, where the flow of riders is predictable.

The ACP model is explicitly about riding at your own pace, within defined limits, and implies self-sufficiency. I tend to the view that this makes the participants as much 'producers' as 'consumers' of the events. The balance between 'production' and 'consumption' is on a sliding scale, which equates to the cost  of the event. Large-scale, long distance, commercially-run events exist, the Deloitte LEJOG is a prime example. Shoestring Audaxes exist at the other end on the spectrum. LEL and PBP occupy a middle ground where insight gained from self-reliance is useful.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: lmm on 02 May, 2019, 12:41:55 pm
Organisers do make route choices that can change the amount of climbing significantly. And food/sleep will certainly affect DNF rates, and while a lot of that's on the individual riders, what the organisers arrange will undoubtedly have a big effect too (especially if some provision is advertised and then not delivered).

As a prospective rider I'm not so worried about the absolute DNF rate (and it's somewhat unfair to compare LEL to PBP when the latter requires qualification), but I'd definitely want to feel the organiser cared about it, if that makes sense, just in terms of being "in my corner". Particularly with a mandatory route I'd not want to be following one that made the ride harder than it needs to be - while there's an inherently challenging distance and geography that means a ride like this will never be easy, it's always possible to route in a way that makes it harder.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 02 May, 2019, 12:54:30 pm
SNIP
examples of long brevets where the majority of riders didn't finish (in time). Where could one find/research those stats? As a relative newcomer, I can only think of the first Mille Pennines (2016) only 38 out 90? finished: btw I suspect "the majority of properly prepared riders [did] finish" MP1K 2016.
SNIP

The first Sydney-Melbourne Alpine 1200 had 50% DNF (which matched our household's finish rate), the second was slightly worse. The first Granite Anvil 1200 had a 50% DNF. I vaguely recall a couple of other 1200s around that rate. Last year's Essex 1000 had a pretty high DNF rate too.

Mille Pennine 1000 was self-selecting for capable riders to a certain extent, as was the Endless Mountains 1200, and nasty weather always increases DNF rate. No doubt HK and I could dig up a couple of other examples with a bit more thought.

I don't have a problem with very challenging brevets, provided the riders know what they are getting into. Weaker or average riders tend to avoid brevets that they are highly likely to fail. A too-high DNF rate (whatever that threshold might be) in normal weather suggests that there might be a bit much in the way of surprises along the way for riders.

Just for interest's sake, I don't believe that riding qualifiers for a 1200(+) makes a huge difference to DNF rate, provided the rider knows what is involved.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 02 May, 2019, 12:54:57 pm
Be assured that with LEL, we never set out to make it difficult, or more difficult. We set it out to make it gorgeous. That will mean in 2021 that at times you will have to plan for times when the going will be slow. There is a high chance you will have to walk small stretches.

The wind in 2017 was vicious. I would count it as adverse weather. Without that wind I suspect the DNF would have been  closer to the norm. A good way to find out would be to look at times up to Louth southbound and times at Loughton. The data is there if anyone wants to crunch it.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: grams on 02 May, 2019, 02:32:46 pm
The wind in 2017 was vicious. I would count it as adverse weather. Without that wind I suspect the DNF would have been  closer to the norm. A good way to find out would be to look at times up to Louth southbound and times at Loughton. The data is there if anyone wants to crunch it.

The data doesn't back up this assessment. LEL 2017 lost 433 people between Louth northbound and Louth southbound. It lost 104 between Louth and Loughton. If you were still in the game at the start of the Fens there was a 90% chance you'd be a finisher.

The data points to the North British hills being a bigger problem than the Dutch ones.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Pip on 02 May, 2019, 03:06:43 pm
You can't be held to account for the weather Danial.

In 2009 we caught the tailend of a hurricane returning through the Scottish borders. Eskdalemuir control resembled a field hospital. The glorious landscape of previous days became an unfriendly and threatening wilderness.

In 2013, PhilW has already mentioned the extremely high temperatures (and strong wind) we had to contend with returning through Cambridgeshire and Essex, like riding into a hair dryer... normally benign cycling terrain....rendered attritional by the weather conditions.

In 2017, the 15 kms pan flat stretch from Spalding to Crowland into a vicious cross/headwind was some of the most testing riding I have ever experienced....never mind the onward journey to the relative shelter of St. Ives.

The point is, that whatever the terrain, kind, hard, bucolic, brutal.....it will always be tougher if Nature decides to play capricious.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 02 May, 2019, 03:55:22 pm
Absolutely the worst conditions I've ever seen on LEL from 2001 onwards were on Yad Moss from 11am on Wednesday, Southbound, on LEL 2017. We'd started filming at about 7am, and followed riders over to the white barn towards Langdon Beck. We then returned, stopping at Drew's van, I dropped Dave off in Alston, and drove back to Brampton to swap Heather's car for my motorbike.

So I was able to see conditions change throughout that period. It was alright early on, but there were ominous clouds to the South. I don't have any footage of the worst weather, as it was raining hard enough to reduce my speed on the motorbike to below 30mph. That one spell of weather must have seen off a lot of those who'd manage to struggle through the Southern Uplands.

Having said that, controllers were reporting that many of the field were behind schedule from Barnard Castle onwards, Northbound.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: mattc on 02 May, 2019, 04:14:39 pm
It's a good thing we do this in July for the best of British weather, hmm?
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: simonp on 02 May, 2019, 04:24:04 pm
I packed at Brampton northbound because I knew I wasn't heading north fast enough.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 02 May, 2019, 04:33:07 pm
Absolutely the worst conditions I've ever seen on LEL from 2001 onwards were on Yad Moss from 11am on Wednesday, Southbound, on LEL 2017. We'd started filming at about 7am, and followed riders over to the white barn towards Langdon Beck. We then returned, stopping at Drew's van, I dropped Dave off in Alston, and drove back to Brampton to swap Heather's car for my motorbike.

...

Having said that, controllers were reporting that many of the field were behind schedule from Barnard Castle onwards, Northbound.

Agreed (to both). We had to help a lot of riders who got into trouble in that storm. What was also worrying was the number of people who stopped to call me to tell me they were suffering. My advice was always the same, to keep moving and not stay still. There was one crash on Yad Moss, but nobody got into serious trouble with hypothermia or suchlike.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 02 May, 2019, 04:46:36 pm
I was in favour of leaving my motorbike at Barnard Castle and carrying on with Dave in his car. That would have limited filming, and it was entirely due to the excellence of the Barnard Castle control that I was persuaded to get back onto the bike.
I headed straight to the Louth control, and fortunately the weather improved, so I got to our overnight  in Boston in relatively good order. The coverage between Barnard Castle and St Ives is a bit sketchy for that reason, missing out Thirsk and Pocklington completely.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 02 May, 2019, 04:47:27 pm
The wind in 2017 was vicious. I would count it as adverse weather. Without that wind I suspect the DNF would have been  closer to the norm. A good way to find out would be to look at times up to Louth southbound and times at Loughton. The data is there if anyone wants to crunch it.

The data doesn't back up this assessment. LEL 2017 lost 433 people between Louth northbound and Louth southbound. It lost 104 between Louth and Loughton. If you were still in the game at the start of the Fens there was a 90% chance you'd be a finisher.

The data points to the North British hills being a bigger problem than the Dutch ones.

It does. The point you make and the point I made aren't mutually exclusive by any means. Losing 10% of the field on an almost pancake flat 250km section in otherwise fine conditions is down to something other than the route. And as you point out, the laggards were already long out of time which suggests the 10% that failed on the fens were from a stronger cohort of riders.

Other factors that also led to the high DNS.

- well-meaning but in hindsight poor advice about being relaxed on the first day of the ride.
- atrocious weather on Yad Moss
- considerable underestimation of the difficulty of the route
- a long leg, which combined with timing and the collapse of catering at Louth trapping and eventually terminating some rides.
- relative inexperience from some riders, more often from non-European countries.

Some of this is down to the nature of the event. It is in the UK, which means there is always the risk of foul weather. Some is down to plans that just didn't work, which will be fixed next. Some of this will melt away as folk who are new to this gain experience. Some will also be fixed by the qualifiers for guaranteed entry that will be in place, which should raise the experience levels of the cohort as a whole.

Having controls in Louth, Hessle and Malton should also make the first day and night run much more smoothly. Together I estimate I can get 900+ bed spaces in these three controls. The control in Malton is spread over two schools, effectively doubling the capacity I had at Pocklington last time.

All good learning. It's just a shame that I only get to run one experiment every four years.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 02 May, 2019, 05:27:25 pm
We set it out to make it gorgeous.

^^^ This, as best we can  :thumbsup:

We're looking for good riding, through lovely scenery, with great views.  We're not specifically setting out to ride up every hill on the route — we'll leave that to Andy Corless' events ;) — but I do expect there will be more climbing than 2017.

This will all be made very clear well before final entries open  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 02 May, 2019, 06:07:44 pm
I packed at Brampton northbound because I knew I wasn't heading north fast enough.

That was another factor. 100 hour riders who weren't proceeding as modelled.


https://vimeo.com/333790058
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 02 May, 2019, 09:07:26 pm
There was that too, of course. The 100hr riders had less fun than the 117hr group, judging by the faces I saw at the finish.

The plan next time is to limit the fast group to a single, big group.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: arabella on 02 May, 2019, 09:16:25 pm
That was another factor. 100 hour riders who weren't proceeding as modelled.
Most definitely; arrival times at <location> are skewed more towards closing time the further along the route they are, bumping into folks who've only just enough time and pulling them into the bulge.
(based on sample of 1 x LEL thobut.  I'm hoping next time around my little dears' arrangements won't require anything of me, unlike the massively complicated moving around-ness that dogged LEL week in 2017 for me)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ivo on 02 May, 2019, 09:42:05 pm
Sure, there is always a risk of DNFing a long brevet but the majority of properly prepared riders should finish. Time limits are set to be somewhat challenging but quite achievable by the 'average rider'.

PBP has the longest history and largest population of riders, so statistics are easy. About 1 in 7 DNF PBP in a good year and about 2 in 7 DNF in a bad year. There have been several 1200s with DNF rates of 1 in 2 starters. I'd say that something was obviously wrong with those events, in the absence of horrendous weather. Those events were DNFing the majority of the average riders. In between those statistics is a reasonable threshold for DNF but I'm not sure where that is.
Please could you offer from your wide experience examples of long brevets where the majority of riders didn't finish (in time). Where could one find/research those stats? As a relative newcomer, I can only think of the first Mille Pennines (2016) only 38 out 90? finished: btw I suspect "the majority of properly prepared riders [did] finish" MP1K 2016. I was not among that elite but, on the plus side, I did return to finish the business with a successful (if lanterne rouge) ride in 2017. I was better prepared, had a better plan (informed by the previous year's experience) and the conditions were better. The ride's finish rate was near 2/3rds, and that success rate was replicated last year (with me in the kitchen / behind the counter for 3 nights, that time).
Long rides are hard - organisers can offer and publicise the challenge, design an attractive and safe route with accessible start/finish, maybe select a time of year when ephemeral and weather conditions are benign, describe as much or as little support as they wish, deliver that with the help of volunteers (in the main) for all riders, hope that the event captures riders' imaginations, that the entries roll in, and that the DNSs are few. After that it's up to each individual rider and their mount.

A flat one with a nearly 50% rate was the Silkroute 1200 in 2016. A desert storm just blew away the 2nd half of the field. That with a limited amount of climbing.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: fimm on 03 May, 2019, 11:00:24 am
(Almost completely OT) The Tour of Yorkshire went through a place called Pocklington yesterday - I assume it was the Pocklington...
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: rachel t on 03 May, 2019, 11:53:21 am
(Almost completely OT) The Tour of Yorkshire went through a place called Pocklington yesterday - I assume it was the Pocklington...

Yes it was the Pocklington of LEL fame
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: john jackson on 03 May, 2019, 12:32:20 pm

(http://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59325869_2270173606633932_2160953391289729024_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=858b9f97f985f5f8e3284ec85ce3be56&oe=5D33440C)
The route looks good. (image from Facebook group)
Little bit more climbing and distance which should be balanced out by the extra time 125 hrs and more controls beds for the end of day 1 and return South.
the dropping of the 100 hr group for multiple groups should help the DNF rate as many DNFs unwisely opted for an early start and 17 hours less to complete the ride
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 03 May, 2019, 12:41:40 pm
As you may have seen elsewhere, we are going to try something quite radical for 2021. There is now a traffic-free route all the way from Dalmeny to Haymarket in central Edinburgh. We plan to use this route, then route to the castle, the Royal Mile, parliament, Arthur's Seat and then backroads to Gracemount.

I've been looking for a route into town for as long as I've been running LEL but have always been hampered by (a) the lack of a suitable city-centre control and (b) the traffic. Routing over the bridge and along the new traffic-free routes that the council has built has created a better opportunity than I dared hope for.

This is not without its risks. There is a tram line to negotiate, not to mention the festival being in full-swing. The LEL team have had some debate about how to negotiate these, and our current thinking is that one crossing of the tram lines at some traffic lights is acceptable if we mitigate this with warning signs and/or a steward at the junction. The Royal Mile may require a short walk, but we've decided that it's a small price to pay for being able to tour through town.

In any event, we will seek permission from LRM to suspend the mandatory route through town, so people can navigate however they see fit. LRM will decide on this after PBP but I have had positive noises from them.

Routing through Cambridge in 2017 has given us the confidence to do this. Cambridge was not universally popular, but it was clearly very popular. Hopefully we can make Edinburgh work too, though we are going to have to put a lot of work in to make it work.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 03 May, 2019, 12:46:29 pm
the dropping of the 100 hr group for multiple groups should help the DNF rate as many DNFs unwisely opted for an early start and 17 hours less to complete the ride

My current plan is to have a single group at 5am, with the main group trickled out between 6am and 2pm. The aim is to get the timing right to fill Malton, Hessle and Louth on the first night, with as many people as possible getting to Dunfermline on night 2. Both Dunfermline and Moffat are huge controls so I would like to fill them.

This early start and long first day should help people cover as much ground as possible northbound.

That's the plan, anyway.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 03 May, 2019, 01:17:26 pm
A Malton control makes it impossible to bypass the Howardian Hills, which is the most logical route from there. Chris Crossland's Three, and Two, Coasts go through Malton. The North York Moors are a possibility I suppose, but Thirsk is still attractive for its shopping facilities, and rail links to London and to Manchester Airport.

Getting to Malton will likely involve a visit to Wetwang, which is always amusing.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: FifeingEejit on 03 May, 2019, 01:17:58 pm
Is the potential walk on this section of the Mile?
https://goo.gl/maps/SyAfptebKW9X75qz8

Other than it likely being rammed due to the festival, that's a motor traffic restriction not an all vehicle restriction; although that doesn't stop people having a moan at you... but that's Edinburgh in general, particularly when they think they're speaking to a tourist and get a response in full on Fife  ;D

Not entirely sure but it may also be a core path (edinburgh's mapping is poor); if it is land access law applies.
http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/63/edinburgh_s_core_path_plan

Spoken to the Councils Access officer?


If I'm riding LEL 2021, then the option to avoid certain sections of Edinburgh would be handy, riding into Fife (i.e. the home country) is as I found out on the Auld Alliance a mental challenge enough
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 03 May, 2019, 01:38:56 pm
My current plan is to have a single group at 5am, with the main group trickled out between 6am and 2pm. The aim is to get the timing right to fill Malton, Hessle and Louth on the first night, with as many people as possible getting to Dunfermline on night 2. Both Dunfermline and Moffat are huge controls so I would like to fill them.
This early start and long first day should help people cover as much ground as possible northbound.
That's the plan, anyway.
It will be great to cycle through Edinburgh and use that cycle route (which we used on the West Highland 1000 last year). Care will be needed for the stretches where the path is used both ways. And meet head on the 'you're not seeing any of the city of Edinburgh if you stop short at Gilmerton' criticism. The Forth Road Bridge images will be an excellent substitute for the Castle Howard images.
720k out; 785k back. Other than those in the 100 hour group/start, the proportion of the field who'll get to Dunfermline to take advantage of its capacity during Day 2's dark hours (6am start, 40 hours to Day 3 4am, say) will, I fear, be low. Only those on a sub 94 hour schedule (from the 125 hour starts) would make it (so similar to sub 90 hours for the LEL 2017 route).
Dunfermline will 'close' at about midnight on Day 3 for the last starts at 2pm. Only those riders who revel in brinksmanship will cross the Forth going south without a decent time buffer. In 2017 it was at the Edinburgh control early on Tuesday morning (46 hours in for me) that people started drawing attention to the expected headwinds forecast for 36 hours time across the Fens (in particular).
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: fimm on 03 May, 2019, 01:51:56 pm
I'm confused. I can't think of any path that's been built to the FRB since 2017. And I live here.
Cycling past Haymarket is notoriously nasty. There's a funny looking painted lane which has reduced the accident rate somewhat according to Spokes (the local cycle campaign).
How spread out will the field be by then? I mean, if you went and stood outside Haymarket station would you notice that anything unusual was going on?
I suppose I could volunteer to be junction steward for a bit!!
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 03 May, 2019, 02:24:54 pm
I'm confused. I can't think of any path that's been built to the FRB since 2017. And I live here.
Cycling past Haymarket is notoriously nasty. There's a funny looking painted lane which has reduced the accident rate somewhat according to Spokes (the local cycle campaign).
How spread out will the field be by then? I mean, if you went and stood outside Haymarket station would you notice that anything unusual was going on?
I suppose I could volunteer to be junction steward for a bit!!

In Cambridge locals didn't bat an eyelid in 2017.  There's a counter on a cycle path on the corner of Parker's Piece (which is much narrower than the route riders took) and that easily hits 1500 before lunch every day, so 1500 riders on the main drag past Kings College over a day and a half was lost in the noise.  Some of the bridges over the Cam take, apparently, 10,000 cyclists per day, which I can believe.

I suspect the same would be true of Edinburgh, even though riders will still be relatively closer together.

And it's only a few hundred metres of busy streets, so a few minutes at most if anyone has to walk part of The Mile.  And on a weekday, albeit mid-August.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 03 May, 2019, 02:36:11 pm
How spread out will the field be by then? I mean, if you went and stood outside Haymarket station would you notice that anything unusual was going on?
I suppose I could volunteer to be junction steward for a bit!!
1300 spread out over 36 hours with the 'bulge' being maybe 800 over 16 hours (so less than one a minute, on average, maybe peaking at 20 every 10 minutes). On a weekday/night. So at Haymarket that'd be 'noise' during the rush hours (from my observations one Friday evening in June, 5-7pm)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Phil W on 03 May, 2019, 03:00:31 pm
I'm confused. I can't think of any path that's been built to the FRB since 2017. And I live here.
Cycling past Haymarket is notoriously nasty. There's a funny looking painted lane which has reduced the accident rate somewhat according to Spokes (the local cycle campaign).
How spread out will the field be by then? I mean, if you went and stood outside Haymarket station would you notice that anything unusual was going on?
I suppose I could volunteer to be junction steward for a bit!!

The LEL route and controls were sorted long before (other than late amendments that became necessary)
2017 so anything built in 2017 wasn't available as an option during planning of the route that end and booking of the Edinburgh control etc. Imagine something being built in 2021 that doesn't fit with the chosen controls here in 2019.  You would not expect the route and control location to change last minute to take advantage of it.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Rod Marton on 03 May, 2019, 03:10:26 pm
Going through Edinburgh definitely strikes me as a Good Idea. After all, the PBP goes through Brest, and Brest (except for the bridge) is nowhere near as scenic.

My one worry is navigation. Fine if you have a Garmin, but with a routesheet it would be hard work. Even the cycleroute in isn't easy to follow if you don't know it. Perhaps some PBP-style arrows? Don't know how they would stay there, but could definitely be a help.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Phil W on 03 May, 2019, 03:31:17 pm
Generally there are arrows a few Km either side of controls. Assuming the local drunks don't remove them :-)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 03 May, 2019, 03:33:19 pm
I'm increasingly of the opinion that Haymarket will need stewards to make this works. I don't think just signs will cut it.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Phil W on 03 May, 2019, 03:34:39 pm
You could put bar stewards outside Monty's Bar near Haymarket. :facepalm:
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 03 May, 2019, 03:45:16 pm
Going through Edinburgh definitely strikes me as a Good Idea. After all, the PBP goes through Brest, and Brest (except for the bridge) is nowhere near as scenic.

My one worry is navigation. Fine if you have a Garmin, but with a routesheet it would be hard work. Even the cycleroute in isn't easy to follow if you don't know it. Perhaps some PBP-style arrows? Don't know how they would stay there, but could definitely be a help.

Rod, I reckon the routesheet will be fine.  I've already started mapping it out in my head and I don't have any issue with routing through there.  I've routsheeted worse places :)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: FifeingEejit on 03 May, 2019, 03:55:30 pm
I'm confused. I can't think of any path that's been built to the FRB since 2017. And I live here.
Cycling past Haymarket is notoriously nasty. There's a funny looking painted lane which has reduced the accident rate somewhat according to Spokes (the local cycle campaign).
How spread out will the field be by then? I mean, if you went and stood outside Haymarket station would you notice that anything unusual was going on?
I suppose I could volunteer to be junction steward for a bit!!

The LEL route and controls were sorted long before (other than late amendments that became necessary)
2017 so anything built in 2017 wasn't available as an option during planning of the route that end and booking of the Edinburgh control etc. Imagine something being built in 2021 that doesn't fit with the chosen controls here in 2019.  You would not expect the route and control location to change last minute to take advantage of it.

The cycles paths on the old railways are a bit older than that though and a page from 2013 includes most of the core of the current network; I'm sure they've been there since the mid-2000's
http://www.cycling-edinburgh.org.uk/bike-paths.htm


there's tidier ways to the castle from the Roseburn path than going into Haymarket yards but involves the potential for dealing with more traffic; I'll need to find the route we used to get to POP a few years back.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 03 May, 2019, 03:58:54 pm
there's tidier ways to the castle from the Roseburn path than going into Haymarket yards but involves the potential for dealing with more traffic; I'll need to find the route we used to get to POP a few years back.

Yes please  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: FifeingEejit on 03 May, 2019, 04:29:45 pm
You can see on the return from Parliament here:
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/14108881

Rather than turning up to Haymarket at the end of the Roseburnpath we crossed the railway and went by Dalry road; on the way to Parliament the ride started at the Meadows but our return route was right up the mile and down the back of the castle back to wards the Dalry road.

Another ride through Edinburgh I've done is:
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/15399406

I used the queensferry road as it was quiet enough, but if you came off the roseburn path at Ravelstone Dykes, and then crossed the Dean on the Belford road can then either take a square crossing of the tramlines at the end of Queensferry road at the foot of princes street which should allow a view of the castle from below... Then castle terrace goes onto the road up to the castle.
Or as I did, cross closer to Haymarket at Morrison street to get to the road up to the castle.

Critically both of these routes through Edinburgh were not designed by me.
This one was: https://ridewithgps.com/trips/34034660
Haymarket to Waverly without pre-planning it...
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 03 May, 2019, 04:42:23 pm
Thank you  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: FifeingEejit on 03 May, 2019, 04:53:55 pm
Balls, the junction layout I was looking at in the OSM mapping wasn't showing what movements are permitted, you can cycle onto Shandwick place from Queensferry Street as it's an exclusion on the no entry, but you can't turn onto the Lothian road from there.

Can get onto Charlotte Street/Square from Dean using randolph cresence, and then cross princess street to turn left onto Lothian road.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 03 May, 2019, 04:55:01 pm
Noted, thanks.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 03 May, 2019, 05:36:53 pm
You could put bar stewards outside Monty's Bar near Haymarket. :facepalm:

If Monty's bar was a control I would be a DNF.  I'd reach Edinburgh fine...
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Phil W on 03 May, 2019, 06:21:14 pm
You could put bar stewards outside Monty's Bar near Haymarket. :facepalm:

If Monty's bar was a control I would be a DNF.  I'd reach Edinburgh fine...

Yes glad I'd gone back to my hotel to drop my bike off before a second session at Monty's finish after the Highland 1000
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: markcjagar on 03 May, 2019, 08:29:28 pm
I disagree. Most folk prefer success to failure, particularly for something that you get one chance at every four years at best. Some riders react quite badly to not finishing a brevet in time, so not a "good time" for them and the negative effects on those riders can linger. Success breeds success and the converse is also true.

I only made it 1/2 way last time and whilst it was frustrating I enjoyed myself, gained experience and feel I have unfinished business so want to conquer the route next time!
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Cyclops on 04 May, 2019, 09:27:05 am
I wouldn't spend too much time on the minutiae of the route through Edinburgh at the moment. It's highly likely that the council or festival will make some changes to road access and layout between now and 2021.


Can get onto Charlotte Street/Square from Dean using randolph cresence, and then cross princess street to turn left onto Lothian road.

No, you can't. It's no right turn from Albyn Pl into Nth Charlotte St and Glenfinlas St is blocked off at its north end.
You could carry on along Queen St and turn right up Castle Street then right along Young St (George St is likely to be closed by the Book Festival)or go via Queensferry St/ Hope St to avoid the setts. The cycle path along the side of West Register House is probably best (if it's open).
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Pingu on 04 May, 2019, 10:15:00 am
This was the route from Waverley to Dalmeny designed by Feanor otp for our Easter Arrow on 2017.

https://ridewithgps.com/trips/13967542
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: CarlF on 04 May, 2019, 08:24:47 pm
I’d suggest heading out of town on the route Pingu posted, but getting to it from the South Side via George IV Bridge / The Mound / Hanover St. / Dundas St. and joining Feanor’s route at Canonmills.

That gives you plenty of tourist interest (Greyfriars Bobby, Old Town / Royal Mile, close view of the castle, festival crowds and street entertainment outside the National Galleries, through the heart of the New Town) great views across the city and over the Forth (if the weather is clear), you cross the tram tracks at a right angle, the zoom down Dundas St is great, and the navigation is easy.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Pichy on 04 May, 2019, 09:46:42 pm
I’d suggest heading out of town on the route Pingu posted, but getting to it from the South Side via George IV Bridge / The Mound / Hanover St. / Dundas St. and joining Feanor’s route at Canonmills.

That gives you plenty of tourist interest (Greyfriars Bobby, Old Town / Royal Mile, close view of the castle, festival crowds and street entertainment outside the National Galleries, through the heart of the New Town) great views across the city and over the Forth (if the weather is clear), you cross the tram tracks at a right angle, the zoom down Dundas St is great, and the navigation is easy.

I’d second any suggestion to cross the Royal Mile rather than go along it. I think it’s terrific that LEL will actually get to Edinburgh (and beyond - even if it that means entering Fife) but I think pragmatism should trump romanticism. During the festivals, which are well underway by then, from about 1000 onwards until late evening, the pedestrianised section of the Royal Mile is not anywhere you should be sending anyone on a bike. Regardless of the day of the week, it will be absolutely hoachin’ to the point where as a pedestrian it is challenging to negotiate. The idea of doing that with 700km plus in the legs, a loaded bike to shove and walking on slippy cleats is just asking for trouble. I say this not as a jumped up local who is down on the festivals but someone who believes August is the best month of the year. Despite that, if I find myself trying to get down this section of road it takes all my reserves of patience not to melt glaikit tourists who are standing transfixed, 20 deep around the official perfomers’ stands. Hell is other people the High Street.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 05 May, 2019, 01:32:37 pm
Pichy, I might have to come up and let you give me a tour of the sights  ;)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Pichy on 05 May, 2019, 06:58:28 pm
That would be good.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: jamiepearson on 06 May, 2019, 08:30:26 am
I’d suggest heading out of town on the route Pingu posted, but getting to it from the South Side via George IV Bridge / The Mound / Hanover St. / Dundas St. and joining Feanor’s route at Canonmills.

This is exactly the route I thought best and had intended to post. Sending cyclists (even bike pushing pedestrians) down the Royal Mile in August wouldnt be my choice. George IV bridge / Mound crosses it and gives to anyone so inclined the option to go up to the castle and/or down the mile to Parliament
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 06 May, 2019, 01:24:42 pm
I am not local to Edinburgh but have cycled through it twice on LEJOG, once on a tour and another time when trying to find a friend's house. Each time was fraught with trouble. From trying to follow the route to the Forth road bridge to getting confused at large open junctions that were not designed for bikes or cars. Any suggestions at cycling through Edinburgh or anywhere near the centre need to be very closely looked at as the town will be full of tourists not looking where they are going in large groups. Move forward with this idea with caution.  ??? ???

BB
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 06 May, 2019, 04:15:04 pm
I . . . have cycled through [Edinburgh] twice . . . Each time was fraught with trouble . . . .Any suggestions at cycling through Edinburgh or anywhere near the centre need to be very closely looked at . . . Move forward with this idea with caution.
But others have expressed disappointment that this UK flagship long distance ride goes all the way to the suburbs but then doesn't visit Scotland's fantastic capital. @alwyn's 2021 project aims to consummate our trip across the border. And the Forth Road Bridge is a spectacular extra.
I suspect that the route will be designed with (dis)proportionate effort, care, attention to safety and detail, notwithstanding recognition that every rider is on a private excursion on the public highway, responsible for their own conduct (and navigation). There are firm and capable hands on the tiller and plenty of local advice (see thread).
I sincerely hope we do not go down the alley of an attempt to 'sign' the 'mandatory' route through Edinburgh's roads and cycle paths out to the bridge. And red and white tape on all the bollards to increase their conspicuity, perhaps?
I guess Dunfermline is booked so we'll have to get there somehow.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 06 May, 2019, 08:07:38 pm
Thanks for all the input.  It's all very useful  :thumbsup:

Alwyn and I will revisit the route through the capital, as we were discussing several options.  At the end of the day, a few minutes hike-a-bike through the dead centre is nought compared to 120 hours pedalling the rest of the way.  It's still a couple of years off, we still intend to take you through some of the best bits  ;)

FWIW, I taped a couple of bollards with reflective tape on the Cambridge Busway as a test (for LEL) back in 2016 and someone else — I have no idea who! — went along and taped the rest.  And I keep seeing fresh tape being added to bits of furniture along that particular route.  I suspect something similar could be attempted where needed on the bikepath through Edinburgh — safety by stealth, or something.  But let's not forget that cyclists ride into things even when they're clearly marked — as happened on my Capitals of East Anglia 300 last weekend, less than 1km after the start  :facepalm:
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Chamford Sideplate on 06 May, 2019, 08:25:32 pm
Paths and quiet routes through Edinburgh are all covered by the SPOKES Edinburgh Cycle Map. £6.95 from https://www.edinburghbicycle.com/spokes-cyclists-map-of-edinburgh-2016-edition (https://www.edinburghbicycle.com/spokes-cyclists-map-of-edinburgh-2016-edition) I regularly heard people asking at the Edinburgh control in 2017 how far it was to the city centre as they wanted to see the castle.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: bairn again on 06 May, 2019, 08:35:28 pm
heres my tuppenceworth. 

The Roseburn -  FRB via the tarmac cycle path is a no brainer ie using the same route as my Auld Alliance and WH1000 last year. 

Id give up on a route going by any specific city centre tourist attractions given the time of year and navigational difficulties inherent in larger cities.  Crossing the Forth (twice) is iconic enough IMHO.

No need for stewards at Haymarket.

My offer of help as an EH12 resident (and experienced event organiser) remains open. 

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29912943





 
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 06 May, 2019, 08:41:49 pm
My offer of help as an EH12 resident (and experienced event organiser) remains open. 

Thanks, BA  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 06 May, 2019, 09:08:51 pm
Cor, thanks everyone for the advice and help. I'm even more certain now that we can make a success of this.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: simonp on 06 May, 2019, 09:14:53 pm
I packed at Brampton northbound because I knew I wasn't heading north fast enough.

That was another factor. 100 hour riders who weren't proceeding as modelled.


https://vimeo.com/333790058

Thanks for that video Damon - I stand by all of it!

The reality is - having completed every 1000km+ event I'd started before 2016, I've since then DNFd the two I've entered. The most obvious contributing factor is taking up rowing, which has led to less time on the bike and significant weight gain* (as well as a bit of middle age spread along with it). Given that a month later we won Gloucester Regatta it was probably a wise choice to pack; that fed into 2018 and 4 more wins.

For PBP this year I've made the choice to step back from rowing competitively in order to ensure I'm in the right place physically for PBP. I might return to rowing after PBP, in which case I'd then have to decide whether to have a go at LEL 2021. If I did it would have to be on the similar basis of stepping back from the rowing, I think, so that if conditions are tough I'll still be in the game.

* Last PBP I was around 74-75kg. Now 82kg - yet still too light for our fastest boat.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 07 May, 2019, 11:33:42 am
We've wondered why people ride fixed over the years. Alan Vance gave us an insight at Brest in 2007. He said he was on fixed because he was lazy, and if he had gears he'd change down until it was easy, and it wouldn't do if it was easy.
https://youtu.be/aNc5OaLuI74

There was a tailwind forecast when Heather talked to Alan. There's a lot of talk about the effect of headwinds, but not so much about tailwinds. Gradients are easily represented in graphics, the effects of windspeed and direction are variable, and are only apparent in real time.

Discussion of LEL 2017 performance has to factor in much of the field not 'making hay while the sun shines'.

In the background of the video of Simon P is Daniel Sikar. I don't know what time he started, but his experience over Yad Moss was different from Simon's. https://vimeo.com/228809512
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: bairn again on 07 May, 2019, 12:25:09 pm
heres my tuppenceworth. 

The Roseburn -  FRB via the tarmac cycle path is a no brainer ie using the same route as my Auld Alliance and WH1000 last year. 

Id give up on a route going by any specific city centre tourist attractions given the time of year and navigational difficulties inherent in larger cities.  Crossing the Forth (twice) is iconic enough IMHO.

No need for stewards at Haymarket.

My offer of help as an EH12 resident (and experienced event organiser) remains open. 

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29912943

Heres a version that goes under the tram line at Russell Road just near the end of the bike path thus avoiding any crossing issues then uses the Telfer Subway to reach Polwarth and onwards through Morningside. 


https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29917418

Edit - and a "tourist" version using Princes Street.  Heading south/east this crosses the tram line at the east end of Princes Street where the tram swings left onto St Andrew Square and heading north/west it crosses the tram line at Princes St / Frederick St.   

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29917485

 
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: grams on 07 May, 2019, 12:39:45 pm
Is the idea to cross Edinburgh twice, or take a direct route from Moffat to the Forth bridge?
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 07 May, 2019, 12:58:10 pm
Is the idea to cross Edinburgh twice, or take a direct route from Moffat to the Forth bridge?

That's a good point. The Deloitte 'Ride Across Britain' will go up to Abington, then to Hopetoun for an overnight stay. https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29222267

The Pentland Hills dictate that to a large extent. The desire for more interest by passing through Edinburgh may result in more riding next to the M74, on poor surfaces.  Clydesdale's nice though.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: bairn again on 07 May, 2019, 01:08:49 pm
Is the idea to cross Edinburgh twice, or take a direct route from Moffat to the Forth bridge?
oh yes of course, the direct route needs to go no closer to Embra than Newbridge. 
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Rod Marton on 07 May, 2019, 01:15:33 pm
I'd assumed the route only went through Edinburgh once: there isn't any need to do it twice.

But if it goes through Edinburgh it ought to be a "tourist" route, it doesn't make a lot of sense to go through the city otherwise. BA's looks pretty good to me: maybe needs the odd tweak but his knowledge is more local than mine. I know the tramlines might be a problem, but I would expect most of the foreign riders to be more familiar with these than the British ones. So not insuperable.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ivan on 07 May, 2019, 03:01:20 pm
I don't think the official route has to go through the centre of Edinburgh, just close enough so that those that do want to detour to see it can easily, and if you leave and rejoin the mandatory route at the same point that should be fine surely?
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 07 May, 2019, 03:12:09 pm
That means the cycle path next to the A90, then the B701, which is like the London South Circular.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Brakeless on 07 May, 2019, 03:19:52 pm
Hopefully 2021 will be my third LEL and I couldn't begin to fault the organisation in anyway whatsover. But ! The last thing I want to be doing after 700km riding is walking and pushing my bike in my cleats amongst hundreds of tourists not looking where they are going. I can totally understand people wanting to get to Edinburgh 'proper' and I think it's a great aim for the event but please make it all ridable.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 07 May, 2019, 03:26:38 pm
The plan is to route directly from Moffat to the Forth bridge, then back via Edinburgh using the cycle route from Dalmeny to Haymarket.

I can understand that you might not want to have to walk, but that could well happen regardless of the route through town. The traffic free route is also popular with people walking their dog, and I will take a very dim view of any rider who is any less than utterly civil and polite in yielding to anyone on foot.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: vorsprung on 07 May, 2019, 03:34:15 pm
I can understand that you might not want to have to walk, but that could well happen regardless of the route through town. The traffic free route is also popular with people walking their dog, and I will take a very dim view of any rider who is any less than utterly civil and polite in yielding to anyone on foot.

I have no problem with dog walkers, slow urban cyclist or the odd person walking

I know that it's difficult to make an un-dangerous route into most urban centres.  Most cities have busy roads in their middle

However, if the official route is choked with push chairs, people walking their dog, joggers with headphones on etc etc then I'd rather risk my life with HGVs turning left and so on.  Often this sort of thing is very sensitive to the time of day and the weather

I'll ask locals for a definitive opinion nearer the time once the route is decided
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 07 May, 2019, 03:41:17 pm
I can understand that you might not want to have to walk, but that could well happen regardless of the route through town. The traffic free route is also popular with people walking their dog, and I will take a very dim view of any rider who is any less than utterly civil and polite in yielding to anyone on foot.

I have no problem with dog walkers, slow urban cyclist or the odd person walking

I know that it's difficult to make an un-dangerous route into most urban centres.  Most cities have busy roads in their middle

However, if the official route is choked with push chairs, people walking their dog, joggers with headphones on etc etc then I'd rather risk my life with HGVs turning left and so on.  Often this sort of thing is very sensitive to the time of day and the weather

I'll ask locals for a definitive opinion nearer the time once the route is decided

In that case, LEL2021 probably isn’t the event for you.

Incidentally, Edinburgh, Fife and Midlothian councils are already aware of the event. They very kindly unlock gates and barriers where they are able to. The track we used in 2017 was not universally popular, but it was popular. We also received no complaints, and we do get a dozen or so complaints from the public each iteration.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 07 May, 2019, 03:51:39 pm
A direct route between Moffat and the Forth road bridge will cross the Clydesdale district of South Lanarkshire. The Clyde catchment gets surprisingly near to Edinburgh.

(http://www.vaslan.org.uk/sites/default/files/inline-images/sllanarkshirev5.png)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: vorsprung on 07 May, 2019, 03:58:10 pm
In that case, LEL2021 probably isn’t the event for you.

Oh, too bad.  I've entered it twice before and volunteered on one.  I guess things change
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: marylogic on 07 May, 2019, 04:22:33 pm
I've not had any problems with the FRB to Edinburgh route. I think there is enough cycle traffic on it that pedestrians expect bikes and behave accordingly.

If folks want a fast trip through Edinburgh could they (be advised to) time it so they are travelling early hours of the morning?
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: bairn again on 07 May, 2019, 04:32:35 pm
Having realised that the requirement is only one way ie N/W -> S/E Id say that this is as good as it gets if you want to see the sights. 

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29919352

Points to note

- 1st 11 km is on NCN and the majority is on a nice tarmac bike path (as per Auld Alliance & WH1000)

- This does not cross the tram lines at Haymarket, it stays parallel to them all the way to Sth St Andrew Street.  The "dodgy" tram line crossing at Haymarket only happens if youre heading West so thats avoided.   

- The crossing of the tram lines is at an oblique angle but is easily made into a 90 degree turn by a quick "keep left to cross right" turn.  As a comparison I recall crossing a railway line on the Green & Yellow 300 on Saturday that was at a less favourable angle and which had zero warning in advance.

-  This is the Hollywood approach into Edinburgh as the castle and the Royal Mile skyline are revealed.   
 
- Princes Street is open only to buses, trams, taxis and bicycles.  Local buses (the maroon ones and the ones you see most frequently) have a good reputation re cyclists.  I'm sure they would remind their drivers in advance if we asked them.  Ditto the trams as they are sister companies.         

- The bit at the bottom of The Mound (*) gets busy during the Fringe as it hosts a ticket office.
 
Im happy to road test this (or any variant that alwyn / wiklyboy want me to try out) next midweek and can take copious photos if that helps. 

* stop sniggering at the back.  yes you.  And you as well.   :hand:


Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: fimm on 08 May, 2019, 11:59:55 am
Having realised that the requirement is only one way ie N/W -> S/E Id say that this is as good as it gets if you want to see the sights. 

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29919352

Points to note

- 1st 11 km is on NCN and the majority is on a nice tarmac bike path (as per Auld Alliance & WH1000)

- This does not cross the tram lines at Haymarket, it stays parallel to them all the way to Sth St Andrew Street.  The "dodgy" tram line crossing at Haymarket only happens if youre heading West so thats avoided.   

- The crossing of the tram lines is at an oblique angle but is easily made into a 90 degree turn by a quick "keep left to cross right" turn.  As a comparison I recall crossing a railway line on the Green & Yellow 300 on Saturday that was at a less favourable angle and which had zero warning in advance.


I also hadn't realised there was a requirement for only one way. As bairn again says, the dodgy tram line crossing at Haymarket is avoided going NW -> SE as per his route. You wouldn't need a marshall there at all.
You do get a dodgy tram line crossing on Princess St instead. I really don't like it but I am very nervous around the tram lines - probably excessively so.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: mattc on 08 May, 2019, 12:23:09 pm
I'm not sure what I think about Tram Lines on an Audax. I do think they're a serious hazard for tired/decrepit audaxers - but then so is the public highway in general.

A number of other events have tricky crossings - the oblique one on the BCM is mainly encountered in the dark without incident. I've done two (long) events on the continent where we crossed city centres that were riddled with the flipping things.

My gut feeling about all this is seeing the tourist sights of Edinburgh would be lovely - a little delay for zombie pedestrians and/or tram tracks would be a price worth paying.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: grams on 08 May, 2019, 12:32:50 pm
I'm reminded of this giant hole (https://www.123rf.com/photo_15969985_the-cambridgeshire-guided-bus-way-linking-st-ives-with-cambridge-is-the-world-s-longest-guided-bus-w.html) in St Ives, which from what I recall claimed a few victims in 2017.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 08 May, 2019, 12:42:43 pm
Assuming I had to ride the LEL route as outlined, given the history of wind direction on LEL, and based on having ridden the roads on LEL, bairn again's 'Edinburgh Preston Edinburgh', and Sonya Crawford's 'Only for Softies'. I would want to ride Scotland the other way round.

The series of valleys from Langholm to the Granites are a pleasure with a tailwind, and not having your nose to the stem, or having to concentrate on following a wheel, allow unfettered appreciation of the views. The view from the Granites is also inspiring, and would whet the appetite for an Edinburgh visit.

That's assuming that there's a desire to retain the Southern Uplands. The biggest 'crunch' that happened there was in 2009, on the return at Eskdalemuir. The outbound was crowded too, but I stayed at the Tushielaw Inn in 2005 and 2009 on the way out, when the traffic was two way.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 08 May, 2019, 01:14:03 pm
Given that the route SE from the Forth Road Bridge (FRB) through the city has been 'sorted' above, the route north from Moffat to the FRB is not without its (route design) challenges.
I thought the manking two years ago about the state of the A701 was completely overstated and who could not have enjoyed climbing past the Devil's Beef Tub? But the Pentlands sit directly on the line between Broughton and the FRB and going south of the Pentlands means traversing the tedious outskirts of the city. So if north it is, I hope we don't get sucked up towards Abington, unimaginatively parallelling the M74. Gretna to Moffat was enough of that last time. I guess crabbing across from Broughton (A701) on the B7016 through Biggar and Newbiggin to the A70 and thence to the FRB via Kirknewton (B7031) and Kirkliston (B7030) is a workable, scenic option.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 08 May, 2019, 01:30:35 pm
Is the idea to cross Edinburgh twice, or take a direct route from Moffat to the Forth bridge?

That's a good point. The Deloitte 'Ride Across Britain' will go up to Abington, then to Hopetoun for an overnight stay. https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29222267

The Pentland Hills dictate that to a large extent. The desire for more interest by passing through Edinburgh may result in more riding next to the M74, on poor surfaces.  Clydesdale's nice though.

Given that the Deloitte 'Ride Across Britain' will put 700 riders, all starting from Carlisle, in September 2019, then their route will give a strong indication of the viability of the Abingdon A73/A70/B road route to the bridge. It's a route I've mainly followed on Sonya Crawford's 'Only For Softies'.

If combined with the Langholm/A7 section, I'd rather go through Eskdalemuir Northbound, and visit Edinburgh before Dunfermline.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: FifeingEejit on 08 May, 2019, 02:45:10 pm
This is a route I took through that corridor last year
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/27385472

Coming over the beef tubles then turning against the route from Broughton to Carwrath may feel a bit of a pain

Carnwrath High Street was in the middle of being dug up so I had to walk that section on the pavement but was better than the advertised detour.

The bits around Livvy weren't exactly nice but that's a Scottish new town for you.
The west lothian and lanarkshire muirs were dull, it was like being caught in an endless version of mid-fife.
My route from Newbridge to Dalmeny was pretty rubbish too but it's compacted gravel on some bits of the old railway.

If I was doing it again I'd probably try and get over to Winchburgh to get to Kirkliston then use the B800... I've not been on it since long before it was renamed from the dreadful A8000.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Chamford Sideplate on 08 May, 2019, 05:05:01 pm
Re the return leg through Edinburgh, suspending the mandatory route but recommending the North Edinburgh Path Network of quiet, repurposed railway lines would give a reasonably safe back-road/off-road route through the city that could pass through the Royal Park (Arthur's Seat) on its way south but also allow people to take a short detour into the city centre if they wish. I agree with FIMM about the tram tracks.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 08 May, 2019, 06:24:17 pm
Re the return leg through Edinburgh, suspending the mandatory route but recommending the North Edinburgh Path Network of quiet, repurposed railway lines would give a reasonably safe back-road/off-road route through the city that could pass through the Royal Park (Arthur's Seat) on its way south but also allow people to take a short detour into the city centre if they wish. I agree with FIMM about the tram tracks.

I think there's a lot of merit to that, you know.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alanmc on 09 May, 2019, 07:30:43 am
This is an area and roads I know well and ride a lot.

My chosen route from Moffat to FRB (variations on Fifeingeejits suggestion) would be : https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29933515

Also taking BA's route and varying/extending it all the way out to the Granites, using the Roslin cyclepath to cross the bypass https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29933543

I think the idea of passing through Edinburgh on the way south is an excellent one, and the various suggestions/options from some of the "locals" on this thread make viable, pleasant, spectacular in places, routes through the city,
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: grams on 09 May, 2019, 10:03:50 am
My chosen route from Moffat to FRB (variations on Fifeingeejits suggestion) would be : https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29933515

100+ km? That's going to be one the longest stretch without a control. Hopefully not too many reach Moffat on Monday night and decide to leave it till the morning like they did for Louth-Pocklington.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Planet X Paul on 09 May, 2019, 11:57:07 am
My chosen route from Moffat to FRB (variations on Fifeingeejits suggestion) would be : https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29933515

100+ km? That's going to be one the longest stretch without a control. Hopefully not too many reach Moffat on Monday night and decide to leave it till the morning like they did for Louth-Pocklington.

Yes, and it's still over 10 Kms from the start of the bridge to the control in Dunfermline.  A very long section indeed.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 09 May, 2019, 12:08:38 pm
100+ km? That's going to be one the longest stretch without a control. Hopefully not too many reach Moffat on Monday night and decide to leave it till the morning like they did for Louth-Pocklington.
What's the issue with sleeping at Moffat and riding to Dunfermline in the morning/dawn? I estimate the bulge (max plus one SD) will not reach Moffat till dawn on Tuesday. I think Brampton will be a more likely 'pinch-point' (0600-1200 starts).
I would have thought any 117 hour rider would have been content, pleased even, to complete 630km by midnight Monday. Depending on start time (0900-1600) that implies speed made good of between 16.1 and 19.6kph with time in hand of between 11+ and 18+ hours. Personally, mercifully arriving before the heavens opened at 2340, I had 5 excellent hours' sleep from midnight till 5am, and was in Edinburgh for a 9am breakfast (includes getting lost on the cycle path on the way in before Loanhead).
In 2021 riding via Malton will add minimal distance - Google Walking suggests 317km from Hessle to Moffat, essentially picking up the 2017 route from Slingsby (just N of Castle Howard). Though the mandatory route may add a few extra miles.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: grams on 09 May, 2019, 12:26:34 pm
What's the issue with sleeping at Moffat and riding to Dunfermline in the morning/dawn?

Nothing, unless everyone else chooses the same plan!

I think you're right that the bulge shouldn't reach Moffat by Monday night, although with earlier start times (I can't find the comment now) it'll reach further than it did in 2017.

And people (especially me) will hopefully have learnt from 2017 that the way to not DNF is to not fuck about on the first half of the ride.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ivo on 09 May, 2019, 12:28:31 pm
What's the issue with sleeping at Moffat and riding to Dunfermline in the morning/dawn?

Nothing, unless everyone else chooses the same plan!

I think you're right that the bulge shouldn't reach Moffat by Monday night, although with earlier start times (I can't find the comment now) it'll reach further than it did in 2017.

And people (especially me) will hopefully have learnt from 2017 that the way to not DNF is to not fuck about on the first half of the ride.

Which would make the first night on the bike a lot more enjoyable for those who already chose not to faff on the first evening (it was a lonely ride towards the Humber bridge).
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: FifeingEejit on 09 May, 2019, 12:39:40 pm
This is an area and roads I know well and ride a lot.

My chosen route from Moffat to FRB (variations on Fifeingeejits suggestion) would be : https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29933515


Ta, will need to remember this thread next time I need to head that way :-)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 09 May, 2019, 01:20:16 pm
What's the issue with sleeping at Moffat and riding to Dunfermline in the morning/dawn?
Nothing, unless everyone else chooses the same plan!
I think you're right that the bulge shouldn't reach Moffat by Monday night, although with earlier start times (I can't find the comment now) it'll reach further than it did in 2017.
See alwyn's OP "starting slots between 06:00 and 12:00 for people who want a 125 hour limit."
Majority will not have the speed to construct a plan to sleep stop at Moffat. You might think anyone who can complete a 600 at BR speed could but it doesn't seem to work like that. Of course wind might speed the bulge north, but then those with the speed in 'normal' conditions to make Moffat by midnight Monday will mostly flow on to Dunfermline before stopping.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 09 May, 2019, 02:27:55 pm
The elephant in the LEL room is Louth. Crossing the Humber Bridge in 2013 dictated the Market Rasen control, that allowed people to get to Pocklington, and that put massive pressure on Pocklington.

It has to be borne in mind that the original plan was more modest. Michele Braugher mentions that in her report.
Quote
The organization was absolutely superb.  For a ride that was originally supposed to be 700 riders and turned into 1100, it was amazing.
https://roadpixie.blogspot.com/2013/?fbclid=IwAR3W_XTbHMAmyQ41gvQqaofrQtmP_TEgcAGqmqODE0W-766aQGPlKERoM1s

That expansion came from the unrestricted nature of the initial entry, which left a lot of 'natural' participants out in the cold, and they needed to brought in. Opinion prior to entry had been 'these rides never sell out'. That 805 riders finished is a credit to all concerned.

810 finished in time in 2017, from a field of about 1400. That might point to a natural carrying capacity for the underlying structure, it might be due to worse weather, or it might be due to the addition of more distance, and more climbing, because of the diversion to Louth. There were comments about the difficulty of the Lincolnshire Wolds, and also that the hedges blocked any potential views, resulting in riding through an undulating green tunnel.

I can see the logic in extending the ride in order to get over 1500km, and have a more relaxed timetable. But that evolves from the decision to cross the Humber Bridge, then to include Louth in the route. I do wonder if the course is being forced too far from the obvious line. In other words 'Why Louth'.

Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Redlight on 09 May, 2019, 04:07:00 pm
I can see the logic in extending the ride in order to get over 1500km, and have a more relaxed timetable. But that evolves from the decision to cross the Humber Bridge, then to include Louth in the route. I do wonder if the course is being forced too far from the obvious line. In other words 'Why Louth'.

Interesting point. I can't say that I was that enamoured with the Humber Bridge and certainly not with getting on and off it. I am sure that others will disagree, but I would have preferred a more westerly and direct route to South Yorkshire, as in the 2009 edition. However, I can understand the organisers' desire to make the route more interesting for overseas visitors too, and my comment should be taken as a personal preference rather than a criticism.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: toontra on 09 May, 2019, 04:30:21 pm
I likewise preferred the more westerly route.  The Humber Bridge section didn't inspire me - quite the opposite.  People giving feedback from 2013 onwards and not having ridden earlier versions would have nothing to compare with.  I'm sure the orgs bear this in mind when reviewing, though.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 09 May, 2019, 04:39:05 pm
I can see the logic in extending the ride in order to get over 1500km, and have a more relaxed timetable. But that evolves from the decision to cross the Humber Bridge, then to include Louth in the route. I do wonder if the course is being forced too far from the obvious line. In other words 'Why Louth'.

Interesting point. I can't say that I was that enamoured with the Humber Bridge and certainly not with getting on and off it. I am sure that others will disagree, but I would have preferred a more westerly and direct route to South Yorkshire, as in the 2009 edition. However, I can understand the organisers' desire to make the route more interesting for overseas visitors too, and my comment should be taken as a personal preference rather than a criticism.
To help visualise the lines LEL 2017 took, here's a 'straight line' plot:
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29937122?beta=false
I thought the Lincolnshire Wolds added scenery x 4 (though 2 in the dark for me), as opposed to the lack of scenery if the route headed more directly for the Humber Bridge, or even less scenery if it headed on a "more westerly and direct route" to cross the Ouse at Goole, except for Drax, I suppose.
The Moffat control forces the route furthest from the 'obvious line', but that line traverses the Cheviots and I don't think we'll be routing along the A68 from Otterburn to Jedburgh.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 09 May, 2019, 05:53:31 pm
Michele Braugher mentions that in her report.
Quote
The organization was absolutely superb.  For a ride that was originally supposed to be 700 riders and turned into 1100, it was amazing.
https://roadpixie.blogspot.com/2013/08/
Made link more direct - a report well worth a read.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 09 May, 2019, 06:11:47 pm
I met Michele again in 2017. She organised a 1,000km ride in Wisconsin called the 'The Million Metres of Milk'. Wisconsin is famous for its dairies. So she's writing from an organiser's perspective.

There's some stuff online about the 2009 route. Mike Dayton did a piece on his blog.
Quote
Many of the lanes were unnamed, and that meant the roads were also unnamed on the cue sheet. Thus, a cue might read: "soon R Green Bank no sign" or "follow road on sharp L bend no sign." In those places it was critical to have your computer synched to the section of the course you were on.

Even many of the wider roads had a lane feel, especially on the southern end of the course, because there were rarely drainage ditches. Hedges and undergrowth were allowed to grow right up to the asphalt's edge.
http://ncrandonneur.blogspot.com/2009/08/roads-of-lel-2009.html


I recorded some feedback about the route in 2017. https://youtu.be/7tBo0eXK5LU

Given the need to secure controls, I can't see the route changing from the one announced.

I'd agree with Mike Dayton about the Southern Uplands, especially the bit about tailwinds.

Quote
The very best roads were the deserted stretches through the glacially carved grassy canyons of Scotland. The roads were no different than what we'd seen before but they transported us into a pastoral backdrop unlike anything I'd ever seen before. That leg of our route -- especially with a trailing wind -- was pure magic and by itself worth the price of admission.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 09 May, 2019, 06:47:31 pm
I did make a short film about the 2009 route, outlining why it changed.

https://youtu.be/QGxGk8ReQ6g
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Chamford Sideplate on 10 May, 2019, 08:44:38 am
This is an area and roads I know well and ride a lot.

My chosen route from Moffat to FRB (variations on Fifeingeejits suggestion) would be : https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29933515


Ta, will need to remember this thread next time I need to head that way :-)

+1 for that. Thanks for the route through the Calders and Livingstone - very useful.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: fimm on 10 May, 2019, 10:52:16 am
This is an area and roads I know well and ride a lot.

My chosen route from Moffat to FRB (variations on Fifeingeejits suggestion) would be : https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29933515


Ta, will need to remember this thread next time I need to head that way :-)

+1 for that. Thanks for the route through the Calders and Livingston - very useful.

I work in Livingston. I rode a small piece of that route this morning. I'm happy to go and explore/take photos/make notes if that would be helpful.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 10 May, 2019, 10:52:50 am
Michael Broadwith went from Abington to the Bridge on his End to End. Which tends to suggest that it's the fastest way. https://frrt.org/endtoend2018/map?center=54.63570,-3.93311&zoom=5.

I was filming that ride from Preston onwards on my own. So I had to choose significant and scenic places for good shots. Each set-up takes time and effort, so desire to film is a good indicator of 'scenic' value. I didn't bother following Michael from Beattock to the Bridge. I went on the A701, as it's a more interesting way to Edinburgh, and I wouldn't get lost. I got a good shot on the Forth bridge, but it wasn't much different from one on the Humber bridge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LTFDLDE7o4

The most commented on parts of the LEL are Teesdale/Yad Moss/Tynedale, The Granites to Langholm, and the Castle Howard complex. The Howardian Hills roller coaster gets a mixed response, but forms part of the Castle Howard section. I'd always take time to set up for those sections.

The sections further South are more generic. Location finding consists of looking for villages on Google Earth which might have colourful houses, possibly thatched, and working out when groups might appear.

Cambridge is an interesting case. I filmed there in the middle of the day in 2015 on a Hackney 200, and it was so crowded that it was difficult to get clean shots. On LEL I waited until about 8pm, and it was quiet. I could get interviews, and shots of riders passing Kings College, without fighting the crowds. I'd anticipate Edinburgh being much the same, with some possible good shots if I could be sure of anyone diverting. In 2009 I had a similar idea for Lincoln. The Cathedral and Castle were a 200 metre detour from the route. No interest was shown.

So I look at the filming options on the route as currently described. There will be some opportunities in Queensferry/Dalmeny, possibly on Bankhead Road, close to the Start/Finish of the Daylight 600. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.982843,-3.3737497,3a,75y,328.36h,71.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szbz_DkDL-VP83OE7al6QLw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&authuser=0
I am a bit perplexed as to why they planted that row of trees though, they'll spoil a view of the rail bridge.

I'm a bit concerned that a Malton control might take Castle Howard out of the route.

I am moving away from film-making, riders do a lot of it themselves these days, and I've got a massive archive of Audax material. The changing nature of the field has been interesting, becoming more international, and younger. But the communication systems that have facilitated that are now mature, with all the challenges that maturity brings.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: fimm on 10 May, 2019, 11:45:04 am
The Broadwith route is more direct and doesn't involve faffing about on cycle paths which the other route does (Broadwith would have had a following car, wouldn't he?). The other route is probably more fiddly and will probably require more concentration on navigation. I would cycle all the roads on the Broadwith route. That wee chunk of A71 would be busy depending on time of day. I wouldn't spend a lot of time on the A71 by choice, but others do.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: toontra on 10 May, 2019, 11:56:30 am
Michael Broadwith went from Abington to the Bridge on his End to End. Which tends to suggest that it's the fastest way. https://frrt.org/endtoend2018/map?center=54.63570,-3.93311&zoom=5.

I've ridden this route twice and confirm it's a good - no issues. I prefer it mainly as it avoids the bad road surfaces on the A701 from the top of Devil's Beeftub down towards Edinburgh - the jarring and vibration really spoil what should be a rewarding descent - bloody logging trucks  :demon:.  Whilst not as spectacular as the Beeftub, the small roads from Abingdon onwards are very pretty through the rolling glens.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 10 May, 2019, 12:02:51 pm
It would be difficult to police that section to stop ultra-racers using it, even if you wanted to.

I've driven the A701 a number of times. It's alright at the weekends, but lorries do tend to drive on the speed limiter, as it's less policed than the A702. It's difficult to outpace an empty timber wagon in a Vauxhall Astra, when they know the road, and you don't.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: FifeingEejit on 10 May, 2019, 01:04:12 pm
On LeJog:

The A9 between Perth and Inverness is going to be a series of roadworks for at least the next 10 years; there's been rumblings along it of the possibility it will gain special road status in the process, as the bridges on the current NMU route from Calvine to Dalnaspiddal that are blocked to motorized traffic are apparently getting upgraded as part of it.

Whether that's local rumor or has truth in it is probably hidden away on the Transport Scotland website; but since that route is critical to LEJOG records we're unlikely to see many successful record attempts.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Chamford Sideplate on 10 May, 2019, 02:00:16 pm

<snipped> The most commented on parts of the LEL are Teesdale/Yad Moss/Tynedale, The Granites to Langholm, and the Castle Howard complex. The Howardian Hills roller coaster gets a mixed response, but forms part of the Castle Howard section. I'd always take time to set up for those sections.

The sections further South are more generic. <snipped>


That's useful to someone like me who is thinking about doing LEL for the first time because it's difficult to get an idea of how scenic the route is.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 10 May, 2019, 04:37:40 pm
In 2005 I bought a set of Touring Maps for Motorcyclists from Lidl. They're waterproof, and a convenient scale. They're based on German mapping, and they have scenic roads marked with green dots. Those dotted routes are therefore the more desirable roads to tour in the UK. Barnard Castle to Brampton features.

There's a big cluster of routes in the Borders. The roads are obviously going to vary in suitability for sending 1,500 cyclists down. There are loads around Peebles. It's quite difficult to devise a route to Edinburgh that avoids those scenic roads. The Broadwith LEJOG route nearly gets there.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rgFNt60qrlPdO41ZRpx68ilbCZlJ_9S-yR-lGeBWEMZruF1-yY-gBYGq4ZdsWuA3dghNVoiwogOeqC5wX151lDRsGjf09cHMChGbrZP_qUGd04i4BCdrABf2nmEUJzElO3yDXS6LXdokJ_gXiduB4Oebmh-WpY7n7L1Bhf5a0ohKg7d6OxIgQXWG0Z85GzIyAj0dCDUc3Tzh83kfYiYT0ZM6_4ClznoBWcVJFieGjhYOGeAmXr1S43Ix_iCMLFqY9Tf_iLTf9YiQpiiuiI_lYc6Vk6IeQhDZTeRYX7Yh0TkNrNO6vbBIGksMf1tJjundhMGe5YVthq9AJ3TnRIcyl152xiLEZ6DYfGBgRdalCO6SaIt4nMPA6SwhoWmFTI_ZYwRRlx2reyEBDAx0cuKSUAxuTrwuqMXrBSlUrX0f2y9Ahdc6qLQE489GP2XA2bN55SfIleakzh8fhFIw6z23WWE3V_QW9VJu90tnCvvnAtXCpiB_BvedlHO_cDAc0ZIla5yjiJqPWyLSSSorLbL1E7SWK87TPgpQ0Hl5_b-mSbYnIghC6WG7lVcPkzy82F0GZ_fgjrd2g_LUbZAC9NfTItRxTOiLRr2onEAmIc5TaWXMiaCy-oGMrtxQul-guMBv7HeBKLpm8nqyDn27_phd5RF8-dsm6nQ=w949-h634-no)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alanmc on 11 May, 2019, 07:51:24 am
My chosen route from Moffat to FRB (variations on Fifeingeejits suggestion) would be : https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29933515

100+ km? That's going to be one the longest stretch without a control. Hopefully not too many reach Moffat on Monday night and decide to leave it till the morning like they did for Louth-Pocklington.
Well, that's pretty much a given if the chosen controls are Moffat and Dunfermline. Even the most direct of routes from Moffat will result in 100km+ !!

This route avoids the heaviest trafficed/fast A roads in the main, sticking to pleasant country roads that have little traffic. A small cycle path diversion to avoid the big Lizzie Bryce roundabout on the A71 - though I think I personally would take the road. Possibly a different matter (or risk assessment) for non-locals and tired Audaxers.

There are slightly more direct routes using either the A701 South of the Pentlands, or the A70 North, and while neither are particularly heavily trafficed (for A roads), they still have their share of fast and potentially impatient traffic.

Anyway, just presenting options from local knowledge and experience - at the end of the day the orgs can I'm sure be trusted to present an interesting and viable route.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: FifeingEejit on 11 May, 2019, 10:58:20 am
My chosen route from Moffat to FRB (variations on Fifeingeejits suggestion) would be : https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29933515

100+ km? That's going to be one the longest stretch without a control. Hopefully not too many reach Moffat on Monday night and decide to leave it till the morning like they did for Louth-Pocklington.
Well, that's pretty much a given if the chosen controls are Moffat and Dunfermline. Even the most direct of routes from Moffat will result in 100km+ !!

This route avoids the heaviest trafficed/fast A roads in the main, sticking to pleasant country roads that have little traffic. A small cycle path diversion to avoid the big Lizzie Bryce roundabout on the A71 - though I think I personally would take the road. Possibly a different matter (or risk assessment) for non-locals and tired Audaxers.

There are slightly more direct routes using either the A701 South of the Pentlands, or the A70 North, and while neither are particularly heavily trafficed (for A roads), they still have their share of fast and potentially impatient traffic.

Anyway, just presenting options from local knowledge and experience - at the end of the day the orgs can I'm sure be trusted to present an interesting and viable route.

After 80km you're into well populated areas, and although seemingly not quite having the same 24/7/363 opening of supermarkets as you'll find in Fife and the North East, chances are you'll find something open.

24hr petrol station shops at MidCalder, Newbridge and Queensferry as well as 24hr McDonalds all within a couple of hundred meters of the route.



Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Chamford Sideplate on 11 May, 2019, 05:43:23 pm
In 2005 I bought a set of Touring Maps for Motorcyclists from Lidl. They're waterproof, and a convenient scale. They're based on German mapping, and they have scenic roads marked with green dots. Those dotted routes are therefore the more desirable roads to tour in the UK. Barnard Castle to Brampton features.

There's a big cluster of routes in the Borders. The roads are obviously going to vary in suitability for sending 1,500 cyclists down. There are loads around Peebles. It's quite difficult to devise a route to Edinburgh that avoids those scenic roads. The Broadwith LEJOG route nearly gets there.


Thanks, good idea. I had a quick look in Aldi and Lidl this afternoon but no luck. I think Michelin maps have that feature as well so I'll try those too.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 11 May, 2019, 08:09:15 pm


Thanks, good idea. I had a quick look in Aldi and Lidl this afternoon but no luck. I think Michelin maps have that feature as well so I'll try those too.

They were something that Lidl did when they had motorcycle stuff for sale. I haven't seen them for many years, and they don't seem to come up for sale on the net. They were handy because they could be written on with chinagraph pencil, to mark the route of a ride. All a bit of a lost art now.

There is a route for the 2005 LEL online. https://www.bikemap.net/en/r/13850/
It shows the route as being a bit short of 1400 km. Prior to online mapping it was more difficult to get a total mileage. That route had some difficult laney sections that caused a lot of head scratching, especially around Thurlby. A lot of people would have got up to over 1400 after a few diversions. There were some very obvious shortcuts from Cheshunt to Thurlby, which was the first control.

There were a couple of pan flat sections, the longest was broken up by the Thorne control. That was also the start for half the field. So Thorne starters only experienced that as a continuous section once, they went North first.

That meant that they split the ride into two sections. A hilly 800, followed by a less hilly 600. When you made it back to Thorne you could aim to set out to London at the control closing time, and treat it almost as a separate ride.

You can't adopt that approach with a London start, because of the possibility of a headwind, which makes the two parts very unequal. The more recent breed of 1000 km rides work in a similar way, usually in the form of a cloverleaf.

There are a variety of opinions about the historic routes, and they are bound up with specific memories of controls, companions and the two very different experiences of the London or Thorne starts. All a long time ago now, and a world away.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 11 May, 2019, 10:35:19 pm
I was curious to know who was using a GPS on LEL in 2005. It turns out to be Juergen Steinfelder. He got to about 500km before pulling out with an ITB problem, which is a typical injury. That means he must have created the route for the event, rather than recording his ride. That's assuming there wasn't a GPX available then.
https://spinstone.square7.ch/index.php/long-distance-cycling/london-edinburgh-london-2005
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alanmc on 31 May, 2019, 07:31:35 am
This latest proposal by Edinburgh Council (Meadows to George Street Cycling/walking improvements) might help with joining up a sensible route through the City Centre.

If it gets through planning and completed in time, obviously

https://meadowstogeorgestreet.info/project-details/ (https://meadowstogeorgestreet.info/project-details/)

Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alanmc on 31 May, 2019, 09:29:49 am
This latest proposal by Edinburgh Council (Meadows to George Street Cycling/walking improvements) might help with joining up a sensible route through the City Centre.

If it gets through planning and completed in time, obviously

https://meadowstogeorgestreet.info/project-details/ (https://meadowstogeorgestreet.info/project-details/)

Unfortunately, on closer reading, construction in 2022  :'(
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: inappropriate_bike on 31 May, 2019, 01:55:17 pm
Will there still be an option to avoid the A74 in 2021?

This was the part of the route I enjoyed most in 2017 - https://ridewithgps.com/routes/22451603
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: vorsprung on 31 May, 2019, 03:41:11 pm
Will there still be an option to avoid the A74 in 2021?

This was the part of the route I enjoyed most in 2017 - https://ridewithgps.com/routes/22451603

It was a really nice scenic route but the weather when I did it was benign and it was light.  In the dark or in rain it would be horrendous.  There was one bit of road that was literally more pothole than road.  I had intended to take the main road but I loaded the wrong GPS file :) . Glad I did
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Chamford Sideplate on 11 June, 2019, 11:36:13 am
Will there still be an option to avoid the A74 in 2021?

This was the part of the route I enjoyed most in 2017 - https://ridewithgps.com/routes/22451603

The section north from Boreland towards Moffat has been repaired since 2017. So I would hope that it would be back on the recommended route.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: FifeingEejit on 11 June, 2019, 12:41:53 pm
Will there still be an option to avoid the A74 in 2021?

This was the part of the route I enjoyed most in 2017 - https://ridewithgps.com/routes/22451603

The section north from Boreland towards Moffat has been repaired since 2017. So I would hope that it would be back on the recommended route.

I found a T-Junction on Moffat Toffee this year that was mostly gravel, though that's considerably better than the previous year where I found a section of road that was mostly mud.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 11 June, 2019, 07:30:11 pm
Will there still be an option to avoid the A74 in 2021?

This was the part of the route I enjoyed most in 2017 - https://ridewithgps.com/routes/22451603

The section north from Boreland towards Moffat has been repaired since 2017. So I would hope that it would be back on the recommended route.

Thanks — we are certainly going to test-ride that whole section with a view to using it, as it would certainly improve the Brampton-Moffat leg  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Fubar on 12 June, 2019, 01:37:51 pm
Thanks for all the input.  It's all very useful  :thumbsup:

Alwyn and I will revisit the route through the capital, as we were discussing several options.  At the end of the day, a few minutes hike-a-bike through the dead centre is nought compared to 120 hours pedalling the rest of the way.  It's still a couple of years off, we still intend to take you through some of the best bits  ;)


Appreciate it's a long way off but (roughly) when would you be looking for volunteers for Dunfermline?  Local to me and might be able to get DCC clubmates involved as well.  My commute crosses the FRB into central Edinburgh so will be interested to see the final route.

Thanks!
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Fidgetbuzz on 12 June, 2019, 03:24:42 pm
Crikey .. that is advance planning . There is a meeting of the team including controllers on 23rd November. Provided one of us remembers we will flag your generous offer to the Dunfermline controller .. and normal pattern would be for them to drive recruiting of local vols .. with the central allocation of willing volunteers who are happy to be placed anywhere .. taking place in the last 3 months before the event. The shout out for vols will only really start at the beginning of 2021.  My view  from 2013 and 17 experience .. and I am  not aware of any different plans for 21.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Fubar on 13 June, 2019, 08:56:46 am
Ah no worries - still, it's only about 18 months away...  ;)

I'm already thinking of the 5 year plan I might need for riding it in 2025  ;D
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 June, 2019, 02:03:50 pm

Some of my Randonneurs NL friends have asked me about how they can ride 2021. Most of them aren't AUK members, and won't have the number of LRM rides for a guaranteed place.

What are the options? I'd like to be able to give a useful answer then they ask next.

J
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: bairn again on 13 June, 2019, 02:49:13 pm
Ive ridden up and down Princes St Edinburgh a few times with a not very confident cyclist to get an alternative view on the tramlines.  I updated Wilkyboy verbally at Red Lodge on the Flatlands (though i got there with just  12 mins to spare due to a visitation or 3 so was a bit breathless). 

Id be suggesting a Craigleith - Inverleith Park - Holyrood - Commonwealth Pool route.  Inverleith Park offers great views of the castle eg is used for viewing of the twice yearly fireworks.  A close up of Holyrood Palace is nice too. 

It will be a bit towny between Inverleith Row and Holyrood but nothing dramatic. 
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Phil W on 13 June, 2019, 03:09:26 pm

Some of my Randonneurs NL friends have asked me about how they can ride 2021. Most of them aren't AUK members, and won't have the number of LRM rides for a guaranteed place.

What are the options? I'd like to be able to give a useful answer then they ask next.

J

There will be a ballot for the remaining (non guaranteed) places.  So they will need to enter the ballot when it comes up.   Being  in the LEL 2021 FB group will help in terms of knowing what is happening when.

They can also register their interest at https://londonedinburghlondon.com/
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Fidgetbuzz on 13 June, 2019, 10:34:54 pm
QG .. the possible routes in for anyone without a guaranteed place are

1 .. The ballot for 500 places that will take place in Sept. this year. The window to register for the ballot will be about a week long at the end of Aug /beginning Sept.  Fortunate applicants notified as soon as we can do the admin .. guessing 2 weeks . Deposit of £100 payable if fortunate .. refundable less an admin cost if cancelling by end November 2020. We need this cash input to fund things like deposits for booked  controls, and all the development costs and expenses that are under way already etc etc

or

2 In Jan 2021 .. when the AUK members application period has closed .. we will know how many places are still available .. current guess 800/900 .. and there will again be a ballot for registered applicants .. the date to be on this register is not time defined yet .. but if I had to guess I imagine the first two weeks in Jan 2021.

the LEL facebook group is good for keeping people up to speed on what has happened so far and will be useful from now on

Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: grams on 13 June, 2019, 10:39:58 pm
Wasn’t there the option of bringing a family member over to volunteer to guarantee a place?
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Fidgetbuzz on 13 June, 2019, 10:44:41 pm
You are right .. that is an extra route in that I had overlooked .

Trawl back thru the facebook group posts and this is all explained there.. together with the clear statement that claiming a place this way .. but then failing to provide the volunteer .. will lead to no refund of entry cost and no validation of the ride.

Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Fidgetbuzz on 13 June, 2019, 11:13:58 pm
I trawled back thru the facebook group .. this was Danials post ... so straight from the horses mouth.. but things move on so the initial ballot is as my timing a couple of posts ago....... not as below.. we need the cash  and Danial goes on holiday .

As promised, here is a little bit more news about entering LEL in 2021.

Entry for LEL2021 will be by ballot. There will be a two-week period in January where you will be able to enter. We will then randomly select riders and groups of riders to offer a place to.

During this time some groups of people will be able to enter automatically:

• London Edinburgh London 2017 and Windsor Chester Windsor 2019 volunteers
• Audax UK or Audax Ireland members who were members on 12 September 2018, and remain members on 1 January 2021
• Anyone who has completed a Les Randonneurs Mondiaux validated event in each of the calendar years 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020
• Anyone who brings a spouse or immediate adult family relative (parent, child, sibling) to volunteer, both at London and another control, for at least three full days.

If you don’t already have a guaranteed slot, there are now only two ways to earn one. You can either volunteer at Windsor Chester Windsor on 1-2 June, or you can bring an adult family relative to volunteer for at least three days during the event.

We’ll also open for early entries in October this year. Just £100 deposit guarantees your place in 2021. Again, this will be by ballot.

Meanwhile, in other news we continue to prepare for 2021. Below is a photo from a route recce this weekend. If you know where this is, keep it to yourself!
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Pichy on 13 June, 2019, 11:23:27 pm
Ive ridden up and down Princes St Edinburgh a few times with a not very confident cyclist to get an alternative view on the tramlines.  I updated Wilkyboy verbally at Red Lodge on the Flatlands (though i got there with just  12 mins to spare due to a visitation or 3 so was a bit breathless). 

Id be suggesting a Craigleith - Inverleith Park - Holyrood - Commonwealth Pool route.  Inverleith Park offers great views of the castle eg is used for viewing of the twice yearly fireworks.  A close up of Holyrood Palace is nice too. 

It will be a bit towny between Inverleith Row and Holyrood but nothing dramatic.

And of course this route allows for a cheeky flyby past Hogwarts.  ;)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 14 June, 2019, 07:26:18 am
Ive ridden up and down Princes St Edinburgh a few times with a not very confident cyclist to get an alternative view on the tramlines.  I updated Wilkyboy verbally at Red Lodge on the Flatlands (though i got there with just  12 mins to spare due to a visitation or 3 so was a bit breathless). 

Id be suggesting a Craigleith - Inverleith Park - Holyrood - Commonwealth Pool route.  Inverleith Park offers great views of the castle eg is used for viewing of the twice yearly fireworks.  A close up of Holyrood Palace is nice too. 

It will be a bit towny between Inverleith Row and Holyrood but nothing dramatic.

And of course this route allows for a cheeky flyby past Hogwarts.  ;)

I shall make sure to note it on the routesheet   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Fubar on 14 June, 2019, 08:55:14 am
Ive ridden up and down Princes St Edinburgh a few times with a not very confident cyclist to get an alternative view on the tramlines.  I updated Wilkyboy verbally at Red Lodge on the Flatlands (though i got there with just  12 mins to spare due to a visitation or 3 so was a bit breathless). 

Id be suggesting a Craigleith - Inverleith Park - Holyrood - Commonwealth Pool route.  Inverleith Park offers great views of the castle eg is used for viewing of the twice yearly fireworks.  A close up of Holyrood Palace is nice too. 

It will be a bit towny between Inverleith Row and Holyrood but nothing dramatic.

I would agree with this as it is the route I take into central Edinburgh when commuting - avoids all tramlines (unless they have extended it by then!) and follows the blue route (76?) through North Edinburgh, but still take you close enough to all the sights and smells if a tourist diversion is required.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: mattc on 10 August, 2019, 02:01:18 pm
I am so slow of thought (and reading skillz) that I've only just noticed the new August start date!  :facepalm:

What was the reason for moving it?
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 10 August, 2019, 02:02:47 pm
I am so slow of thought (and reading skillz) that I've only just noticed the new August start date!  :facepalm:

What was the reason for moving it?

Barnard Castle availability, I believe.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 14 August, 2019, 05:55:33 am
Wilkyboy is correct.

Barnard Castle was such a gorgeous control, we were prepared to shift the event a week to keep it for 2021.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: mattc on 14 August, 2019, 06:46:43 am
Thanks both!
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: grams on 18 January, 2020, 09:24:29 pm
The cobbles in Alston are no more. Or rather, so much of them has been patched with tarmac you can ride through without touching any cobbles.
Title: LEL 2021 Route
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 March, 2020, 04:55:43 pm

Given my big plans for 2020 are all not happening, my focus now turns towards LEL 2021. With over a year to train for it, I'd like to give it the very possible effort.

I know the final route won't be available until next year, but I'm wondering how much is known about what the route will be like, how much climbing? What sort of gradients?

How close to the 1500km do we expect the route to be?

J
Title: Re: LEL 2021 Route
Post by: Ajax Bay on 25 March, 2020, 05:50:43 pm
Close (to 1500km) by design.
Why don't you have a read of the LEL 2021 Route thread?  ::-)
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=111765.0
I recall no steep climbs in 2017 (well maybe in the Lincolnshire Wolds, though quite short), but a fair few sustained ones eg up past Castle Howard (but think not on 2021 route), the long climb over Yad Moss, the climb out of Moffat, the climb out of Edinburgh and others heading south to Eskdalemuir, and the climb up from Alston to Yad Moss (SE-bound).
If you search RwGPS you'll quickly find a route and its profile. They may take the choppy route from Longtown north to Moffat in 2021. The extension to Dunfermline offers minimal climbing except a bit of 'urban' in the capital. The variation up to Malton after the Humber looks fairly flat.
PBP had significantly more climb in 200km less.
Title: Re: LEL 2021 Route
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 25 March, 2020, 05:55:29 pm
I think looking at the 2017 route will give you a good feel for the amount if climbing and gradients.

I think Rhett is more climbing on LEL than PBP,  but with the greens to cross in both directions the climbing is much more concentrated.  Having risen PBP I woukd suggest you can expect steeper gradients on UK roads,  although the organisers may do a good job of avoiding thr steeper ones.
Title: Re: LEL 2021 Route
Post by: wilkyboy on 25 March, 2020, 10:29:57 pm
The route is probably 60% the same as 2017.  The other 40% there's a completely new section through Yorkshire in both directions, and from Moffat to Dunfermline and back thru Edinburgh before picking up the classic route south through the Borders.  Plus some alterations along the way for a bit of variety from 2017.  However, whether we get out much this year to check all the options and decide the exact route or not will depend on the level of epidemic here in the UK.

Our current estimate is about 1530km and 14,500m, but all that could change.
Title: Re: LEL 2021 Route
Post by: Ajax Bay on 25 March, 2020, 10:33:56 pm
Our current estimate is about 1530km and 14,500m, but all that could change.
Horse's mouth! If the estimate for 2021 is 14000+m using the same plotting application, what was LEL 2017?
The RwGPS plot of the route I took in 2017 (some variations from your excellent routecards, part by design, part through error) suggested less than 10000m of climb.
Title: Re: LEL 2021 Route
Post by: wilkyboy on 25 March, 2020, 11:03:35 pm
Our current estimate is about 1530km and 14,500m, but all that could change.
Horse's mouth! If the estimate for 2021 is 14000+m using the same plotting application, what was LEL 2017?
The RwGPS plot of the route I took in 2017 (some variations from your excellent routecards, part by design, part through error) suggested less than 10000m of climb.

RWGPS is the tool of choice for this project; obviously (or not) that's Google Maps underneath.

For some reason I didn't have a copy of the full 2017 route that I could find, just each stage, so I've replotted it here: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32189904 (https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32189904).

That gives 1426km and 11,334m.  My Garmin 1000 gave me 10,032m barometric, but that wind would've played havoc with it.
Title: Re: LEL 2021 Route
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 26 March, 2020, 09:09:06 am
IMHO the main challenge on LEL is not the terrain, but the weather.  In 2009, the year I rode it, there was epic rain at several times during the ride (I recall 30 hours of wet weather riding and quite a bit of being asleep while it hammered down) and strong headwinds (even by Dutch standards) on the first part of the return (for a long section my average riding speed was 17.6kph and the only rider that overtook me was on a recumbent).

2013 I was sheltered in Barnard Castle running the catering, so only got stories of the 30C heat.  But in 2017 I was feeding everyone at St Ives and I saw first hand the faces shattered by the headwinds across the fens.  Unlike PBP where the return is with the prevailing wind, LEL heads south on the return so there is always a risk of encountering headwinds when most fatigued.

So riding in an NL winter will be perfect practice - perhaps Leeuwarden to Den Haag into a good SW wind!!!
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 26 March, 2020, 10:51:53 am
@Wilkyboy posted this on a duplicate thread:
The route is probably 60% the same as 2017.  The other 40% there's a completely new section through Yorkshire in both directions, and from Moffat to Dunfermline and back thru Edinburgh before picking up the classic route south through the Borders.  Plus some alterations along the way for a bit of variety from 2017.  However, whether we get out much this year to check all the options and decide the exact route or not will depend on the level of epidemic here in the UK.
Our current estimate is about 1530km and 14,500m, but all that could change.
He also shared his replot of the 2017 route: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32189904?beta=false
which comes out at 11333m climb. I'd be mildly interested to know where an extra 3000m of scenery might be 'discovered'. Maybe the stretch from Longtown to Moffat and through Edinburgh.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 26 March, 2020, 11:11:35 am
I'd be mildly interested to know where an extra 3000m of scenery might be 'discovered'. Maybe the stretch from Longtown to Moffat and through Edinburgh.

A combination of Yorkshire, the bit you mentioned, and — more significantly — I was reading off the last full route I put together with Danial, which was before the controls were finalised, so it includes gloriously hilly sections that are now well off course, sorry  ::-)

As I said on t'other thread — don't worry too much yet, we've a long way to go before the route is finalised.  You'll have to wait a while.  Most of the intricate route-planning was scheduled to take place late-spring and through this summer, although obviously that's now up in the air a bit.

Definitely expect it to be hillier than 2017, but possibly not quite 3000m hillier.  Not that it matters — 3000m over 1500km would only be 2m/km, which is unnoticeable*.



* unless we can work out how to cram it all into a couple of hundred kilometres  :demon:
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 26 March, 2020, 11:27:50 am
Update — a few tweaks to that version of the master route on RWGPS to bring it into rough alignment and we have 1520km and 13,700m.

The Scottish Loop is now much longer (obviously) and much hillier (yay!) by a bit over 1000m.

But it could all change yet, so don't worry about it too much.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 26 March, 2020, 12:45:06 pm
I think lots of potential riders (like myself) would be interested in the route and its gestation, (ETA) and indulge in speculation, even at this distance.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 26 March, 2020, 12:58:30 pm
I think lots of potential riders (like myself) would be interested in the route and its gestation, even at this distance.

The event is still well over year away, possibly two (depending on how this virus-wotsit carries on). 

We already have a number of local riders generously guiding us through "their patch", particularly the new bits, and I'm looking forward to riding out with them later in the year (presuming we'll be allowed to).  Once I get a chance to ride some of the new sections, I hope to keep a rolling update, but right now there isn't enough flesh to it.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: mmmmartin on 26 March, 2020, 01:07:48 pm
FWIW this is the most precient post I've seen for a very long time. To run in 2021 a decision will have to be made very early in the year, monies laid out, deposits paid, etc. That's a big risk. I'm glad Danial does this so I don't have to. That's a big decision.
The event is still well over year away, possibly two (depending on how this virus-wotsit carries on).   
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 26 March, 2020, 01:53:12 pm
FWIW this is the most precient post I've seen for a very long time. To run in 2021 a decision will have to be made very early in the year, monies laid out, deposits paid, etc. That's a big risk. I'm glad Danial does this so I don't have to. That's a big decision.
The event is still well over year away, possibly two (depending on how this virus-wotsit carries on).   

Danial mentioned he's exploring the idea over on FB (https://www.facebook.com/groups/392520757598601/permalink/1413131262204207/?comment_id=1413136115537055) in the last day or so.  However, he said to assume that it's still going ahead in 2021, it's just everyone might have less fitness*.


* so those hills are going to feel bigger than ever  :demon:
Title: Re: LEL 2021 Route
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 March, 2020, 03:21:26 pm
Close (to 1500km) by design.
Why don't you have a read of the LEL 2021 Route thread?  ::-)
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=111765.0

Because with all the searching, I couldn't find that thread, so started a new one.

J
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Zed43 on 26 March, 2020, 03:41:50 pm
I believe LRM is now allowing extra time for "hillyness" when the organiser requests it. In light of the additional 3000m sight seeing, will there be a AAAllowance? (hey, more time to enjoy the food at the controls, right?  ;D)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 26 March, 2020, 03:44:36 pm
I believe LRM is now allowing extra time for "hillyness" when the organiser requests it. In light of the additional 3000m sight seeing, will there be a AAAllowance? (hey, more time to enjoy the food at the controls, right?  ;D)

I doubt there will be any allowance, the route is generally still less than the UK average "norm" of 1% and waaaay less than AAA territory (apart from a few places).

TBH you shouldn't need it — the bump from 1400 to 1500 already provides a nice drop in minimum speed that gives quite a few extra hours.

The route is flat.  Apart from the hilly bits, which are quite hilly  ::-)
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ajax Bay on 26 March, 2020, 07:34:29 pm
I doubt there will be any allowance, the route is generally still less than the UK average "norm" of 1% and waaaay less than AAA territory (apart from a few places).
TBH you shouldn't need it — the bump from 1400 to 1500 already provides a nice drop in minimum speed that gives quite a few extra hours.
The route is flat.  Apart from the hilly bits, which are quite hilly  ::-)
Clearly you expect 2021 to be hillier than 2017, but to support your generalisation, even the 2017 stretch that might offer the highest climb for distance percentage (going on the profile) - crossing under the M1 going north to the top of Yad Moss going south was 465km and (according to my plot) 4710m: dead on the 1% normal for UK.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Ivan on 29 March, 2020, 01:06:58 pm
I doubt there will be any allowance, the route is generally still less than the UK average "norm" of 1% and waaaay less than AAA territory (apart from a few places).

The 2013 & 2017 editions had 2.75AAA, but not sure exactly how that was arrived at. As I recall, when reviewing the new assessment tool, the ~600km section north of the Tees was just under the AAA threshold, I suspect the new route will be adding more distance than climbing so unlikely to qualify.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: alwyn on 02 April, 2020, 02:12:57 pm
The 2013 & 2017 editions had 2.75AAA, but not sure exactly how that was arrived at. As I recall, when reviewing the new assessment tool, the ~600km section north of the Tees was just under the AAA threshold, I suspect the new route will be adding more distance than climbing so unlikely to qualify.

It's for a 100km section around Edinburgh.

There's very little LEL happening at the moment. We usually have this lull around now, once the vent is framed but before we start to organise the event itself. At the moment I'm working to a 2021 event but will be exploring postponing until 2022. I can't do that for a while though, because most of the schools are closed.
Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: Somnolent on 02 April, 2020, 08:33:40 pm
I doubt there will be any allowance, the route is generally still less than the UK average "norm" of 1% and waaaay less than AAA territory (apart from a few places).

The 2013 & 2017 editions had 2.75AAA, but not sure exactly how that was arrived at. As I recall, when reviewing the new assessment tool, the ~600km section north of the Tees was just under the AAA threshold, I suspect the new route will be adding more distance than climbing so unlikely to qualify.

IIRC we were still "testing" & "tuning" the new tool at the time the 2017 route was planned, and the merest tweak of the settings (or even of how accurately the route was drawn to follow the roads) could yield AAA values as low as zero points and as high as 10 points.    I rather suspect 2.75 for was selected for consistency with 2017 because the Lincolnshire Wolds were insufficiently lumpy
(click to show/hide)
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Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: bairn again on 03 April, 2020, 12:02:30 pm
The 2013 & 2017 editions had 2.75AAA, but not sure exactly how that was arrived at. As I recall, when reviewing the new assessment tool, the ~600km section north of the Tees was just under the AAA threshold, I suspect the new route will be adding more distance than climbing so unlikely to qualify.

There's very little LEL happening at the moment.

If the team are still pondering the route from Dunfermline HS to the Edinburgh bypass its something that Im reasonably well placed to do even  while were under current restrictions as I can still get out for an hour or so at routechecking pace.

To recap -

Heres what ridewithgps gives as the default https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32261019 37km.  Loads of flaws.  Nobody would sensibly suggest going this way.

Heres the shortest distance I can establish https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32261043 33.3km.  Doable, crosses the tramline at 90 deg but the bit on the A90 would be horrid esp on a weekday.

Here is my suggestion https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32260975 36.5km. 

No tramlines
No huge cobbles (Im sure but can check)
A close up of Holyrood Palace, Parliament & Arthurs Seat.

Doesnt add huge distance and from the Commonwealth Pool its the standard Edinburgh Road Club route south out the city.  Ferry Rd and Picardy Place isnt anybodys idea of dream cycling I'll grant you but at least these junctions have traffic lights   

Title: Re: LEL2021 - route details
Post by: wilkyboy on 03 April, 2020, 12:13:23 pm
The 2013 & 2017 editions had 2.75AAA, but not sure exactly how that was arrived at. As I recall, when reviewing the new assessment tool, the ~600km section north of the Tees was just under the AAA threshold, I suspect the new route will be adding more distance than climbing so unlikely to qualify.

There's very little LEL happening at the moment.

If the team are still pondering the route from Dunfermline HS to the Edinburgh bypass its something that Im reasonably well placed to do even  while were under current restrictions as I can still get out for an hour or so at routechecking pace.

To recap -

Heres what ridewithgps gives as the default https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32261019 37km.  Loads of flaws.  Nobody would sensibly suggest going this way.

Heres the shortest distance I can establish https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32261043 33.3km.  Doable, crosses the tramline at 90 deg but the bit on the A90 would be horrid esp on a weekday.

Here is my suggestion https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32260975 36.5km. 

No tramlines
No huge cobbles (Im sure but can check)
A close up of Holyrood Palace, Parliament & Arthurs Seat.

Doesnt add huge distance and from the Commonwealth Pool its the standard Edinburgh Road Club route south out the city.  Ferry Rd and Picardy Place isnt anybodys idea of dream cycling I'll grant you but at least these junctions have traffic lights

Thanks BA, that's useful info.  Alwyn has been up to Edinburgh and ridden through the city, I hope to get up later this year to ride a variety of alternatives between Brae Park and Holyrood to make sure the final route is safe, scenic and worthwhile.  If the traffic next year is the same as it is at the moment, we'd probably have the city to ourselves ...
Title: Re: LEL 2021 Route
Post by: marylogic on 05 April, 2020, 10:03:30 am
Likewise if you need any help fine tuning the Dunfermline bit I am happy to help.

This is the route I would use to get to the FRB from Dunfermline High School - it avoids/minimises the A985 and Queensferry Road in Dunfermline both of which can be unpleasantly busy. Of those two routes, the back road route down Grange Road is probably preferrable as long as you watch out for glass in the underpass (I was thinking some of us volunteering at the high school could probably go out and sweep the underpass)

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32278432
Title: Re: LEL 2021 Route
Post by: wilkyboy on 06 April, 2020, 09:34:44 am
Likewise if you need any help fine tuning the Dunfermline bit I am happy to help.

This is the route I would use to get to the FRB from Dunfermline High School - it avoids/minimises the A985 and Queensferry Road in Dunfermline both of which can be unpleasantly busy. Of those two routes, the back road route down Grange Road is probably preferrable as long as you watch out for glass in the underpass (I was thinking some of us volunteering at the high school could probably go out and sweep the underpass)

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32278432

Thanks, Mary.
Title: Re: LEL 2021 Route
Post by: marylogic on 07 April, 2020, 02:27:08 pm
Also just remembered that there is a mahoosive housing development planned just off Grange road

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/781271/green-light-for-massive-dunfermline-development/amp/

There is no sign of any works just now but I guess there is the potential for Grange road to be much busier depending on when they start and if they use other access roads.
Title: Re: LEL 2021 Route
Post by: wilkyboy on 07 April, 2020, 02:32:29 pm
Also just remembered that there is a mahoosive housing development planned just off Grange road

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/781271/green-light-for-massive-dunfermline-development/amp/

There is no sign of any works just now but I guess there is the potential for Grange road to be much busier depending on when they start and if they use other access roads.

Thanks for the headsup, Mary  :thumbsup: 

We'll assess the risks closer to the date, but good to know in advance.