Author Topic: [HAMR] Current thoughts on the record attempt?  (Read 252764 times)

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #625 on: 15 December, 2015, 05:16:26 pm »
And nor is the hare close to tiring.

Edit: cross post with above  8)
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

LMT

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #626 on: 15 December, 2015, 07:02:22 pm »
If Steve wants an adventure that is one thing but he has signed up to beat the record. That is the objective, not going out and having a good time.
So I guess you don't see the mental side as important?

We shall have to disagree on this.

Only in as much as you need the mental toughness to know what needs to get done in order to get the record.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #627 on: 15 December, 2015, 07:09:50 pm »
I was beginning to find this thread depressing reading ...

but then LMT offers lessons for Steve in mental toughness.

Brilliant!   ;D   :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #628 on: 15 December, 2015, 07:31:17 pm »
I could never do this, I lack both the mental and physical ability.  But if I could, my strategy would be:
I would be UK based - I love cycling in Britain
I would never, ever ride into wind
I would have full time camper van support, this would transfer me downwind.  Van would have a fixed bed for instant rest.
I would have full time support and would meet them at no more than 50 mile intervals
I'd use regular (daily) sports massages etc
Bike would be light weight carbon with minimal weight additions - wouldn't need much as would meet support every 3ish hours
I'd want every turn of the pedal to give max benefit - therefore minimal climbing - never more than 1000ft per 100 miles.
I'd publish my intended route based on forecast wind and invite experienced people to come and draft me - I like company too.
Daytime breaks would be minimum time possible - I like my 8 hours sleep so would want sustainable meals all ready to go when I stopped and then have as long off the bike as possible at night
I'd target the record plus a few miles - I don't think large increases are feasible
Finally, my crew chief would be as easy on the eye as Alicia and not have a face like a stunt man's knee!!!!  ;D

LMT

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #629 on: 15 December, 2015, 07:44:50 pm »
I was beginning to find this thread depressing reading ...

but then LMT offers lessons for Steve in mental toughness.

Brilliant!   ;D   :thumbsup:

Was not offering Steve anything, you'll do well not to misinterpret my words. You think Kurt enjoyed doing those loops a couple of months ago in Arkansas? Or was it the fact that he knew what the craic was and just got on with it - that's the type of mental toughness I'm referring to. I'm sorry to say but simply riding your bike won't get you this record. And if it is true what I've read from past members of his team that no thought has been given the most efficient way of churning out the miles then this is staggeringly arrogant - and it's rather sad to see but he is currently paying the price. I'd gladly be prove wrong of course...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #630 on: 15 December, 2015, 08:06:41 pm »
I was beginning to find this thread depressing reading ...

but then LMT offers lessons for Steve in mental toughness.

Brilliant!   ;D   :thumbsup:

Was not offering Steve anything, you'll do well not to misinterpret my words.
What an odd thing to write; are you saying your posts are ambiguous?

Keep 'em coming :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Martin

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #631 on: 15 December, 2015, 09:09:38 pm »
And nor is the hare close to tiring.


just adding some rather "hard to swallow" ingredients to a humble pie I'm making for a resident of This Parish (wink; doesn't work on W10)

Grampa

  • Closest I'll get to being called a climber.
Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #632 on: 15 December, 2015, 11:15:54 pm »
Quote
I would have full time camper van...
I'd.... invite experienced people to come and draft me

Who  needs experienced people?!!
Dee Swimmer, Dee Biker, Dee Walker

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #633 on: 15 December, 2015, 11:20:25 pm »
I was beginning to find this thread depressing reading ...

but then LMT offers lessons for Steve in mental toughness.

Brilliant!   ;D   :thumbsup:

Was not offering Steve anything, you'll do well not to misinterpret my words. You think Kurt enjoyed doing those loops a couple of months ago in Arkansas? Or was it the fact that he knew what the craic was and just got on with it - that's the type of mental toughness I'm referring to. I'm sorry to say but simply riding your bike won't get you this record. And if it is true what I've read from past members of his team that no thought has been given the most efficient way of churning out the miles then this is staggeringly arrogant - and it's rather sad to see but he is currently paying the price. I'd gladly be prove wrong of course...

I think you'd probably hate it...  ;D
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #634 on: 15 December, 2015, 11:55:59 pm »
Current thoughts on the record attempt? Well, both Steve and Kurt have proved themselves worthy contenders. I don't think I am in a position to give advice to either of them, despite being able to ride a bike. What is needed is as far from my experience and understanding as racing up the Tourmalet with the pro peleton and as useful as telling Sagan he needs to turn his pedals faster to win (even if it is factually correct). I'm constantly impressed by the the quality of advice and experience that, if only Steve would adopt, he would be doing better.

What do I think? It is really sad that we are all more than a little downbeat with the apparent direction of Steve's record attempt travel. That he has cycled 60,000 miles in a year in which he broke his ankle is beyond astonishing to me and speaks of a doggedness and determination that should put his critics to shame (but won't, I'm sure). I actually don't have very much doubt that had he avoided injury he would have been successful with his strategy. When I heard the news I  - I'm sure along with many - thought the opportunity was over, we were probably right. But, Steve has earned the right to plough his own furrow as long as he choses.


TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #635 on: 16 December, 2015, 05:19:16 am »
I read the 'advice' as simply a bunch of concerned supporters of Steve seeing his incredible efforts losing their way a bit and desperately offering suggestions that might help him get back on track. I don't think anyone's suggesting they know better than him how to do this, but they can see that it's not going the way it needs to if he's to succeed in his quest to beat Tommy. If it ends up that he doesn't make it, no-one would ever suggest that it wasn't for lack of trying - but we'd all prefer that he does make it!

Perhaps it doesn't help that Kurt is riding at the same time and, for a number of reasons - not least slightly better luck - he's likely to succeed, so, naturally, people will urge Steve to adopt some of the techniques that have worked for Kurt. They may be inappropriate, impossible, or just not right for Steve, but they aren't suggested in a spirit of 'knowing better', simply looking for anything that might help.

There's no-one here that wishes anything but the best for Steve, I'm quite sure of that.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #636 on: 16 December, 2015, 06:18:48 am »
I'm beginning to think that the record needs to be split a bit like the hour record did a few years ago....
One based on a pure Godwin effort like Steve is doing and a Kurt record which is assisted, car transfers etc. Comparing Steve and Kurt is comparing apples and pears, it's not like for like.
There's always time for a second slice of cake.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #637 on: 16 December, 2015, 06:19:04 am »
Just my ten penneth and I am in awe of both!
There's always time for a second slice of cake.

Wowbagger

  • Former Sylph
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #638 on: 16 December, 2015, 06:30:23 am »
I'm beginning to think that the record needs to be split a bit like the hour record did a few years ago....
One based on a pure Godwin effort like Steve is doing and a Kurt record which is assisted, car transfers etc. Comparing Steve and Kurt is comparing apples and pears, it's not like for like.
UMCA have split it, into age categories. Steve will hold the 40 - 50 yo record for his >60k miles. I suspect that that will remain a record for someone who broke an ankle part-way through for the duration of human history. Even Kurt hasn't managed that, the big girl's blouse.  :P
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #639 on: 16 December, 2015, 06:58:06 am »
I'm beginning to think that the record needs to be split a bit like the hour record did a few years ago....
One based on a pure Godwin effort like Steve is doing and a Kurt record which is assisted, car transfers etc. Comparing Steve and Kurt is comparing apples and pears, it's not like for like.

Tommy Godwin was a racer who rode as fast as he could on the fastest bikes of his day, with the support of a team when he could get it.  Kurt is absolutely riding in the same spirit.  Steve says that he has considered a whole range of things and ruled them out, not on purist/ideological grounds but because he doesn't think they will work (although some of us don't agree with that).  It's a race: there isn't. and never has been, a record for doing it audax-stylee, Steve is not claiming any moral high ground by adopting such an approach and I can't imagine he would be happy with a consolation 'audax-class' record.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #640 on: 16 December, 2015, 07:07:50 am »
Meanwhile, the absence of mudguards could lead to illness, saddle sores or just general misery, which are much bigger problems than a marginal detriment to aerodynamics.  I'd want them any time outside the typical two weeks of British 'summer' when it's dry enough that you can reasonably expect there not to be puddles of field run-off.

As with vehicle transfers and so on, I think it's mostly a case of Steve knowing what works, and having been too busy getting on with it to explore other possibilities that might help some of the time.

Mudguards are a small thing, but read this, by a guy who has thought about them for a long ride and how to get the benefit while minimising the aero penalty. 

http://www.murray-white.net/tcr/index.html?bikeGear&wheels

"On the rear wheel, I don’t extend the fender down as far as normal because that only protects people riding behind, which they are not allowed to do in the TCR, so my rear fender finishes about level with the brake bridge on the seatstays. The rear fender extends all the way forwards to the bottom bracket, because otherwise the tire deposits a lot of water and dirt directly onto the chain near the front derailleur. The fenders are all highly modified, cut up, and use custom mounting hardware to make them work with my bike and other equipment."

Then, ask yourself why Steve has a rear mudflap fitted when he is not riding with anyone else.  The marginal losses do add up!

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #641 on: 16 December, 2015, 07:21:51 am »
This thread reminds me that cyclists are no better than or different to football fans.

Most of the crowd think that they are tactically more astute than the manager of their favourite team, and also seem to magically know which players would fit best into the team.   Funny then that they are not all running successful football clubs.  No?

In the crowd there are the ultras, those there to rip up the seats, throw flares, fight with anybody including amongst themselves.   Then there are the neutrals, there to enjoy the beautiful game.   Finally, you get the died in the wool hardcore loyal supporters who will remain faithful to their first love 'in sickness and in health'.   

Me?  Oh, I'm here to enjoy the beautiful game.  :D   

Wowbagger

  • Former Sylph
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #642 on: 16 December, 2015, 07:54:30 am »
In chess, we call them kibitzers*. The great thing is that the star players genuinely rub shoulders with the woodpushers* and after the game, everything is replayed in slow motion with a crowd standing around watching and listening to the grandmasters. That way, you get the benefit of what did happen and an exploration of a lot of the possibilities that didn't.

Matthew Sadler, who at his peak was something like World no 7 and against whom I have a 50% record  :smug:, always used to sit with his mother after his games and show them to her. I don't think she was any better than a pretty basic player, but it was always really interesting because he would explain his thoughts to her and those of us who could play a bit would get the benefit of his explanation.

*terms introduced by Bobby Fischer
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #643 on: 16 December, 2015, 08:16:31 am »
It pretty much goes without saying that there is a sense of continual amazement, and a real element of 'we are not worthy' when it comes to Steve's achievements to date, and yet in this context people do seem to have current and differing thoughts/opinions on the record attempt  :)
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #644 on: 16 December, 2015, 08:18:21 am »
I read the 'advice' as simply a bunch of concerned supporters of Steve seeing his incredible efforts losing their way a bit and desperately offering suggestions that might help him get back on track. I don't think anyone's suggesting they know better than him how to do this, but they can see that it's not going the way it needs to if he's to succeed in his quest to beat Tommy. If it ends up that he doesn't make it, no-one would ever suggest that it wasn't for lack of trying - but we'd all prefer that he does make it!

Perhaps it doesn't help that Kurt is riding at the same time and, for a number of reasons - not least slightly better luck - he's likely to succeed, so, naturally, people will urge Steve to adopt some of the techniques that have worked for Kurt. They may be inappropriate, impossible, or just not right for Steve, but they aren't suggested in a spirit of 'knowing better', simply looking for anything that might help.

There's no-one here that wishes anything but the best for Steve, I'm quite sure of that.

I'm not suggesting that anyone wishes Steve ill, but I think you are plain wrong in your analysis (although there is a spectrum where you are right at one end ;) ). There are many that have, since day 1, expressed their opinion that he would be better doing x, y or z.  Sharing the benefit of their experience from riding, say 10,000 miles in a year, because that's the way to ride 75,000 miles a year. Well, I've done the first and I understand that doing the second is an entirely different beast, no matter that both are done on bikes.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #645 on: 16 December, 2015, 08:56:12 am »
Personally I think the approach Steve has taken is fascinating - mostly because it seems so unbelievable cruel to himself both mentally and physically.   The record has kind of drifted into the background for me when viewing Steves attempt as it seems very clear that the only way it can be beaten is to ride short, fast circuits multiple times in a bunch or to have long straight roads in a massive country with motorized support and transfers.   I find Steves approach impossible to comprehend - but I do respect it for what it is, and find it compelling.

I now don't believe the record can be broken in Britain, by someone riding out and back, on a heavy touring bike with loads of extra layers and kit on board.   I just think hes giving himself a beating chasing the record with the wrong kit and the wrong routes.   My opinion has only really changed to this viewpoint recently after seeing what Kurt has been doing on his loop approach.

I have tried to ride long winter routes a few times in my short cycling history and found it really hard  - the extra layers and heavier kit, the cold lonely food breaks, the battering from the elements miles from home - it just isn't my thing.   Yesterday I had a day off and fancied a long ride - but I thought I would see how a circuit approach worked.   So I spent the first 3 hours riding a 3 mile loop around my house.   It has a mile long but very gradual and easy climb,  followed by a mile of flat then a mile of down.    I averaged 17mph for those 3 hours and seemingly put very little effort in.   Then I set off and did a 30 mile loop, where I average 16mph and then back home again for more 3mile loops and I finished 100 miles in 6 hours, which is a PB century for me by close to an hour.

There is no science here what so ever, but it did occur to me that short circuits around my house meant I could nip back every couple of hours for a coffee and food, I was then warm and refreshed and saving time faffing on the roadside.   I also found it easy to maintain 17mph average which is something I havnt been near on a century ride before.    If I had of removed my bike packing kit, had a carbon race bike with tri bars and had a team of riders to draft and a masseuse booked for the evening then I could really start to see the possibilities.

Yes its boring - but short, favorable circuits close to a base is without doubt in my mind the only way for a British rider to get through a winter with the record intact.  People have said this approach will harm Steve mentally - seems to me like some fast, easy miles for a few weeks would do his mental state the world of good!

Im not saying that's what Steve should do - because this thing should be what he wants to make it - and I have loved following his progress.   Hes still going to be a record holder and a British cycling legend - I just cant see the record being broken unless he changes it up, drastically and quickly

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #646 on: 16 December, 2015, 09:15:11 am »
I think it depends on HOW Steve wants to break the record.
There's no point in him breaking the record if he's not happy with the way he did it.  Would Steve be happy being driven/flown to sunnier places, with flatter roads? Transplanted to more favourable conditions?

Steve may or may not take the record back from Kurt (assuming Kurt stays healthy) next summer, but I'm fairly sure that, if he does, he'll be the very last person to set the record on British roads, through a British winter, Tommy Godwin style.

I see the record as a sort of English Channel swimming record, you can't just transplant it to a warm swimming pool and think it's the same challenge.

The differences in cycling warm and cycling cold are huge.

Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #647 on: 16 December, 2015, 09:16:14 am »
In chess, we call them kibitzers*.
<snip>

*terms introduced by Bobby Fischer

<wildly OT>

I think kibitzer predates Bobby Fischer.  I first encountered "kibitz" in Moonraker, where it was used in relation to working out what cards an opponent had and Wikipedia tells me Moonraker was published in 1955, when Bobby Fischer was 12.  Of course he may well have been responsible for bringing the term to chess.

</wildly OT>
There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #648 on: 16 December, 2015, 09:30:25 am »
HK and I supported Steve through multiple 24hr TTs but it took years of arguments to get him to take advantage of our support (and finally admit that it made a big difference). Some of us do know what we are talking about and Steve, like most folk, can be wrong, even with regards to riding megamiles.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Wowbagger

  • Former Sylph
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #649 on: 16 December, 2015, 09:34:19 am »
In chess, we call them kibitzers*.
<snip>

*terms introduced by Bobby Fischer

<wildly OT>

I think kibitzer predates Bobby Fischer.  I first encountered "kibitz" in Moonraker, where it was used in relation to working out what cards an opponent had and Wikipedia tells me Moonraker was published in 1955, when Bobby Fischer was 12.  Of course he may well have been responsible for bringing the term to chess.

</wildly OT>

You are right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kibitzer

I had always assumed that it was Fischer's, largely, I suppose, because of its American-Jewish association (and despite his later life rantings, he was born an American Jew) and the fact that he was by far the best US chess player of his era, and by a shorter distance and time, the world's best player.

I have no idea if there is a Russian equivalent of "kibitzer".
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.