Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => GPS => Topic started by: steveh on 31 December, 2013, 06:25:06 pm
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Hi folks
after hunting around to find possible clues to this I decided to admit ignorance / lack of patience and just ask!
Got an Edge 800 for my birthday and since October been using it as a posh odometer, not for navigation.
Having tried and failed to finish the Kennet Valley 200 audax a couple of times I want to "practice" the middle 100k as that's the bit I struggle with, and use the Edge to navigate it.
Do I have to "snip" an existing 200k GPS file to do that?
I was hoping I could turn up in Hungerford and the device would know where it was, and navigate from that point.
That said I'm fairly confidently expecting the answer to this is "no"!
Given that it is, can someone suggest (in layman i.e. not especially IT literate terms) how I can modify an existing file to just navigate the bit I want to ride?
Cheers
Steve
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It should be able to pick up from wherever you decide to start from. As long as you start the course, with turn by turn directions set to ON, it will helpfully announce "Course Found" when it recognises that you're on the right road. It should then resume directions along the rest of the course.
If you're nervous about trusting it, you can always re-draw a new track to follow, using tools like the route planner at www.ridewithgps.com
It is possible to edit existing courses but it's not something I tend to do so I can't think of the best app to do that, off the top of my head.
Hope that helps.
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If you have a GPX file, you can edit it with Tyre toTravel. A free routing package designed for TomTom and Garmin by some Dutch chappies.
Every point is displayed and you can chop them out, move them or rename them. You can add waypoints, move them about in the list or scrub them if you don't like them.
Getting the centre section of an existing GPX.
Rename the waypoint which will be the Start Point. Rename the Waypoint which will be the Finish Point. Delete all points up to where you want to start, and delete all waypoints after where you want to finish.
Save GPX as a different name, as a 'Garmin Global Position exchange' file.
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Thanks both - very helpful.
I'll give the "see what happens when you get there" a go, and I've bookmarked TyreToTravel, looks neat.
Steve
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As stated above, you should be fine to start a ride part-way round a course.
If you want to make a course as a subset of another, you can also use visual tools like BikeHike - it has a Cut-to-end feature to shorten a course (and a Reverse Route option so you can also trim the start point and then flip back the right way, IYSWIM)
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You will definitely be fine starting halfway round a route.
I accidentally turned my routing off on my edge 800 during an audax last year. Once I'd worked out that's what I'd done (took a while) I restarted the route and it picked up from just where I was, much to my relief.
Once you've tried it a few times you will get the hang of it.
If you want turn by turn directions I would recommend saving any routes you create as TCX format as this I think is the best for turn be turn directions.
I would also advise doing some practice with it on routes you kind of know already just to get used to it. You will be fine though - the navigation part of my brain has turned to jelly since I was given mine.
(Excellent birthday present by the way - mine was a christmas present in 2012 and I nearly dropped it when I opened it - EXTREMELY generous present!)
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Addendum
I would advise you to be wary of the routes given out by organisers by the way - no offense meant to the orgs. They have enough to do I think than baby us around the route by carefully creating a truly excellent gps route for us.
I have found that they tend to often be a recording of someone's ride and that is not the best way to create a route. The satellite feed isn't too accurate and it can meander off roads giving you annoying off course warnings when you aren't - plus you can see where they cycled around a bit trying to find that bit of the route they'd lost or trying to find a cafe etc.
It is advisable to use that route and create a new one that follows the roads and check that the roads are real using the satellite map and google earth streetview. Google maps have led me up farmtracks to cowsheds before now... I blamed the Garmin and then on rechecking found that googlemaps had a road where no road exists...
This can be a bit tedious but it can also save much gnashing and wailing of teeth en route.
Get a portable battery charger for it. I don't think I've completed a 200 where the battery lasted all the way around. Paricularly when using navigation the battery life I get is about 10-12 hours maximum - it will be at the lower end of that in winter because of the cold. I'm sure I don't have to say, but make sure you have a backup for it - they can crash and do funny things occasionally. See many threads in this forum with people cursing them...
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Only my teeth are capable of wailing by the way ;D
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This is all great stuff, thanks folks! :)
Caerau - any experience with saving files from RidewithGPS.com?
So far those are the files I've downloaded (may have to go back and save as .tcx based on your post though :-[) and again taken on trust.
Most organisers tend to add caveats to files they offer, which is a fair point.
Having never created a route of my own so far your point "use that route and create a new one that follows the roads and check that the roads are real using the satellite map and google earth streetview" goes past me a bit, but I do need to spend a bit of time experimenting on Bikehike and RWGPS to be fair.
Like the point about wailing of teeth - unique! ;D
Cheers
Steve
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Mistyping Mixing my metaphors is a speciality :D
Yeah I use ridewithGPS all the time - creating a route is dead easy - you just click on a place to start the route and set it to follow roads clicking on route points as you go - good idea to have the routesheet to hand if you're keen on making sure you follow it to the letter - make sure you save it as you go along - some of my computers are slow and get hung up on a long route occasionally. It takes a while but not desperately long - much less heartache than getting lost on a 200 k audax!
Once you've saved the route there are several options for exporting it as tcx, gpx etc. If you go premium you can even directly import it to your garmin.
Bikehike is good too - sometimes I use this instead when my computer won't play ball.
If you're lucky someone else will share the route they have created - Bikey Mikey if he's riding is a great guy for this as he does a solid GPS route every time. Asking for a gps is no worries usually, I'm happy to share mine once I've done one and plenty of others are too.
Avoid temptations to use Garmin's software by the way - that's generally terrible although basecamp can be OK if you need to compress the route for bragging rights on Bikeradar or such if that's your bag. Long audaxes can generate massive files that are tough to otherwise upload to the various sites such as MMR, strava, bikeradar etc. (although that's a post-ride issue not navigation).
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As with all of these software site by the way, the 'undo' button is your friend. The autorouting can be quite whacky at times and needs to be tamed occasionally by little short steps to prevent it doing silly things.
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Do you trust routes you see / can download from RidewithGPS though?
If I search for "audax" within 10km of me I get several, question is whether they're any good.
Suppose the simple answer is to trace the one I know best and if it's right then that user is worth believing.
Steve
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Do you trust routes you see / can download from RidewithGPS though?
If I search for "audax" within 10km of me I get several, question is whether they're any good.
Suppose the simple answer is to trace the one I know best and if it's right then that user is worth believing.
Steve
The Audax Organiser's opinion of 'good', your opinion of 'good' and my opinion of 'good' may be completely different.
Just download it and ride it. Then make up your mind.
PS. ALL Audax organisers are 'worth believing'. To get their routes accepted and authorised by the administrator, they MUST complete a risk assessment on the route.
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Do you trust routes you see / can download from RidewithGPS though?
I wouldn't trust any downloaded file from any source, enough to just load it and go and ride it.
I would always check it first on the desktop, then on the GPS, to see if it does what's expected of it. In the nature of GPSs, this isn't always easy to do. But the alternative is the distinct possibility that the navigation will let you down in the middle of nowhere.
In some ways RidewithGPS is particularly problematic, because it offers several different dowload options for each route. This is obviously a good thing because no one format is perfect for everyone - but on the other hand it means that an inexperienced person (I'm not going to use the word 'numpty') can very easily grab a file formatted in a way that doesn't suit them or their GPS.
As I recall, RidewithGPS does have very good Help pages though, around this topic. But who reads Help pages? Apart from me.
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Do you trust routes you see / can download from RidewithGPS though?
If I search for "audax" within 10km of me I get several, question is whether they're any good.
Suppose the simple answer is to trace the one I know best and if it's right then that user is worth believing.
Steve
The Audax Organiser's opinion of 'good', your opinion of 'good' and my opinion of 'good' may be completely different.
Just download it ( Check it, check it again and check it again for a third time ) and ride it. Then make up your mind.
PS. ALL Audax organisers are 'worth believing'. To get their routes accepted and authorised by the administrator, they MUST complete a risk assessment on the route.
Thanks Francis ;)
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Some organisers don't have any 1st-hand knowledge at all, of the file they put up for download.
It is sometimes a 'ridden' tracklog that someone's given them. So the organiser may be a trusting soul, but any rider unwittingly relying on a file like that would just be a mug.
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Anyone trusting files from someone else will trust away happily until one day they will never trust them again ;)
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Anyone trusting files from someone else will trust away happily until one day they will never trust them again ;)
The theory of "Russian roulette".
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Gpx is fine for the 800.
What you do is download the file to your computer from ridewithGps and then copy it to the new files folder on your Garmin 800.
When you next turn the garmin on it will automatically convert any files in the folder to courses.
Then you go to courses and click on the course you want.
Choose the spanner and set your navigation and virtual partner settings.
(Please remember that cycling with virtual partner breaks the rules of audax as the partner won't have paid any fee)
Cycle
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Over the years I noticed so many people getting a bit confused while they learned how to use the Edge 800 properly, that I wrote up an article explaining, step by step, what you need to do and what settings to use.
Much of it has already been said in the comments here, but sometimes it's handy to have it all in one place.
http://www.scarletfire.co.uk/2012/11/foolproof-course-navigation-on-the-garmin-edge-800/
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I had a ring binder full of self written Procedures, Work Instructions and 'Single point lessons' on the eTrex Legend and Edge 605.
You could have had it.
It went in the skip when I junked both units.
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I had a ring binder full of self written Procedures, Work Instructions and 'Single point lessons' on the eTrex Legend and Edge 605.
You could have had it.
It went in the skip when I junked both units.
A very kind thought. Thank you :-)
Where's your local landfill site, I'll get my wellies!
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You can have a copy of my epic ‘Creating an Audax route with TomTom Rider’.
[
1. Read TomTom Urban Rider manual Chapter 6, ‘Planning a route’
2. Read TomTom Urban Rider manual Chapter 9, ‘Itinerary planning’.
]
Copy and paste to a blank Word Doc and you have it! ;)
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Is that a manual that actually comes with it?
In defense of those who don't know how to get the best out of an Edge 800 - the best thing you can do with the 'instruction manual' that comes with it is to burn it to save on heating bills or as a possible better alternative clean the rear end with it to save on buying a smidgeon more toilet roll.
It is completely absurd that garmin can release such a powerful and complex device and then fail to provide at least something vaguely resembling a 'how to use this piece of kit' document?
I know most people don't rtfm but at least give us the option to.
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The Edge 800 manual is here (pdf) (http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac//Edge_800_OM_EN.pdf)
When I bought an Etrex 30, that came with a manual.
I found it on
[GPS]\Documents\files\pdf\
in 30 languages.
:-\
Possibly the Edge has something similar.
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A piece of card in the TomTom pack advised me to plug the unit into an internet connected computer with the supplied USB cable.
I did this and the TomTom website appeared at the Product registration page. I registered and TomTom Home software automatically loaded from the unit. A banner appeared saying ‘Open manual?’. I did and the manual appeared. I saved it to local drive.
It s also on the TT website.
When I plug the unit into my PC, I get an automated updates routine for firmware and maps.
It also gives me oportunity to purchase Darth Vader, Homer Simpson or Yoda's voice for the spoken instructions.
It also gives me oportunity to purchase 'Speed Camera' updates, which I decline.
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The Edge 800 manual is here (pdf) (http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac//Edge_800_OM_EN.pdf)
When I bought an Etrex 30, that came with a manual.
I found it on
[GPS]\Documents\files\pdf\
in 30 languages.
:-\
Possibly the Edge has something similar.
Maybe so, but what comes in the box is a piece of paper about 8 pages long that is more than useless. That manual you linked to is still not _very_ user friendly. Now I've got one and have used it heavily I know what it is saying but when you get one for the first time, and say, have never used a GPS before, it's ??? Hence the many websites about where people explain what you *really* need to do to work it properly.
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For example, I just looked at that manual and read through how to set up a course. Have a look at page 10 on 'how to follow a course from the Web.
If that's not woefully inadequate I don't know what is.
And 'creating a course' on page 9 is limited to 3 bullet points :facepalm:
That manual is hopeless - thinking about it (I haven't checked) that may be what they put in the box.
If anyone can actually get the full use out of their garmin using that manual then they are a better man than me.
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I imagine what you get in the box is the Quick Start guide.
http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac//Edge_800_QSM_EN.pdf (http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac//Edge_800_QSM_EN.pdf)
Normal these days isn't it? when you buy 'stuff'.
I agree the Garmin manuals are rubbish - but now the complaint seems to be, instead of "at least give us the chance to rtfm" -
it's "I read the fm, and I wish I hadn't bothered". You can't have it both ways ;)
What I like about online manuals, is that you can read them before you decide to buy (or not).
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I'm not really sure where I'm trying to have it both ways, you've lost me there. I suppose printing that longer manual off you'd have a greater saving on loo roll than the quick started guide, offset by the toner useage and printer paper consumption.
And is that normal? dunno to be honest, I don't buy much 'stuff' like that. Most things don't really require a manual to get going properly - the Edge 800 most certainly does. It's a bit poor to expect helpful users to provide the details on what to do for free in their spare time. But hey ho, if you don't mind that's up to you.
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Inicidentally, the garmin manual should probably, if it was honest (which it is never going to be of course) tell you to steer well clear of Garmin's own software because that is incredible poor too frankly - in my opinion anyway.
The very last place I'd go to design a route is garmin's website or software ;D
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As far as I have seen, Garmin operate an ‘In service testing’ philosophy.
This is where the users find the bugs, report them to the manufacturer and hope the manufacturer sends out a patch. ;)
I read through the eTrex 30 manual on Garmin’s website and decided not to make another fool of myself. ;D
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Sounds about right.
Don't get me wrong, the Edge 800 is a fabulous pieced of kit, it's just fathoming that out that's the problem.
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Life is full of little lessons, innit? :-\
Taking the various notes of caution posted here I gave it a try as a navigation device on Sunday, on the 100k Kennet Valley route, one I know very well.
There were a number of occasions when there was no notification of what to do at a junction, so me knowing where I was going was rather handy.
The point that bothers me now is, how do I fix that?
On previous posts there have been mentions of "course points" or "waypoints" - is this what the file needs in order to tell the device what to do at that location?
How do I create that?
Rewinding to the title of the thread, and reminding all present of the carefully chosen term "numpty", I don't get how it works, to be perfectly honest.
Maybe I should, to quote Frankie, go on to RWGPS.com and RTFM, and then ask the nice people of this parish for clarification.
I suppose I'm just expecting too much of the device, and don't want to sit in front of a map on the screen for that long creating the route. Time to HTFU, some would say.
Maybe I should do that, save the route I just rode, copy to the device and see if it's better. That way I'd know what I'm dealing with.
Thanks for reading this far :)
Steve
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On previous posts there have been mentions of "course points" or "waypoints" - is this what the file needs in order to tell the device what to do at that location?
How do I create that?
Rewinding to the title of the thread, and reminding all present of the carefully chosen term "numpty", I don't get how it works, to be perfectly honest.
Well - how it works, GPS is a very complicated system. In some ways, more complicated than a desktop computer, or a car. We don't need to know 'how it works' in that sense, to use these things. But ...
Wikipedia on GPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System) (a very long page which just gets worse the more you scroll down)
It doesn't help that it's in the nature of GPS, that it's quite difficult to bug-hunt problems that occur at some remote location, when your GPS insists on being 'here'. ::-)
So it's difficult to check in advance, that a route is going to work. You don't find out that it doesn't, until you get there.
Since you have an Edge 800 - well that's a very popular model, and there must be several people on here who can give good advice on specific issues. Deadhead's page linked upthread looks like a good quick start guide** to using a Course on an 800, and the RWGPS advice page looks useful too. (Though NB I'm saying this as one who doesn't own a 800 !)
** eg - from that page - open your Course and set Turn Guidance to 'On'
As far as I know, the 800 is only really optimal when using a Course file. That means that a lot of the general advice here about Tracks and Routes doesn't really help much. Most of the online planners can generate a Course file however (TCX format), or convert to that from other formats. Though the 800 will internally convert a Track to a Course (not sure what it does with Routes) so that if you load a Track in the correct way, you'll find it turning up in your Courses menu anyway.
Directions at junctions. Well according to RWGPS these are auto-generated from the map on the GPS. See ** above.
Obviously your Course would need to be following the mapped roads closely, for this to have any chance of working. Some downloaded files are just recorded files which may wander around a bit, and not fit the roads perfectly, or they may have been generated using a different map from the one you have on board which again means the junctions might not precisely coincide and so not generate a prompt.
Although files (Course, Track or Route) can and do often have embedded 'turn' instructions in the data, I think 90% of the time the GPS doesn't use this, but generates its own from the on-board map data, and generally only at a Waypoint (or Coursepoint or some Routepoints). If you can add Coursepoints (as you can in BikeHike for example) these should generate prompts regardless of the mapping. But that is of course a bit of extra work. There is a BikHike deep setting to auto-generate Coursepoints which might be what you need.
I must say that in my fairly long experience with other Garmin models, auto-generated directions prompts have never really come up to my expectations, and I usually turn them off and use other (more planning required) methods. For example, I rarely see the simple "Turn Left at next" sort of message which is what I'd want. More likely, it would be "Turn NW onto Netherbottom Lane in 200m" which may look more informative on paper but in practice is not helpful. Maybe I just haven't found the right settings to make this stuff work properly.
But, I get a bleep and then I look at the line on the screen, and really that works for me.
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Good point about TCX format - I'll try that next time out and see what difference it makes. Think I had seen a reference to GPX previously so had used that.
Thanks again
Steve
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Yes you definitely do want a tcx file if you want prompted directions. I find those very reliable personally - not 100% but 95% or more. If you get a cross roads and no prompt then straight on usually works. If it's wrong you'll quickly get the BBRRRRR! off course warning and then stop and turn around and look at the line on the screen.
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A bit of thread necromancy - where's the zombie emoticon when you need it? ;D
So, I have my Edge 800, and have used it to navigate audax a couple of times, but using someone else's GPS file (sorry, know that's a GPS 101 or ID10T basic error....)
What threw me a bit was that the device beeped to alert of a change of direction, but either right at the junction, or after it.
I am aware of the "distance to next X" display, so will use that, but wondered what it is that defines when the device beeps.
Is it the device knowing where it is in relation to the saved route?
Is it a detail in the route someone has created and they've inserted cues for the device to beep?
I am working with TCX, and have R'd the TFM and it doesn't tell me anything about stuff like this, so I thought I would consult the collective consciousness that is YACF O:-)
Thanks folks. Next audax is Sunday, 110 Barbury Bash, so not a big deal as I know the route from times past.
Steve
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It's only as good as the maps that have been used to design the route. I've found the odd error in googlemaps in the past - claimed there was a road when in fact it was a farm track up to a cowshed :facepalm: I blamed the device at the time but when I got home I checked the googlemap and it was that that claimed it was a road, when it was not.
There's probably a bit of inaccuracy in the GPS positioning also I suspect (not sure how much).
I know what you mean, i get that occasionally too - particularly at junctions in the countryside that I guess have been less carefully checked.
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What threw me a bit was that the device beeped to alert of a change of direction, but either right at the junction, or after it.
I am aware of the "distance to next X" display, so will use that, but wondered what it is that defines when the device beeps.
Is it the device knowing where it is in relation to the saved route?
Is it a detail in the route someone has created and they've inserted cues for the device to beep?
Late alerts seem to be a regrettable tendency with newer Garmin models.
With the GPS settings at default, what is supposed to happen is, when approaching a point that generates an alert, the beep occurs at a set *time* before that point is reached (say around 5 seconds). So it's a 'time to next' thing. If you bring up a 'time to next' data field and watch it for a bit, you'll see how wildly inaccurate that display often is. I don't really undertand why, given that it is a simple matter of 'distance to next' and closing speed, and the 'distance to next' itself is usually pretty spot on.
It always seems to me to work better at higher speeds, at walking pace (or cycling up a steep hill) the beep is often so late as to be right on the junction. At normal cycling speeds or in a car, on my old Etrex it works pretty well.
My newer Etrex30 has the same tendency you describe - at cycling speeds the beep is often too late and occasionally so late as to be after the junction.
I don't know about the 800, but on the Etrexes you can try to tweak this behaviour in setup, by effectively adding an offset to the 'distance to next' - the setting is called 'off road transitions'
Etrex 30 (http://www.aukadia.net/gps/e30/setuprouting12.jpg) then you can enter a number, say 50 (metres).
As to what generates the alerts in the first place, it will be routepoints that have either been programmed in advance (by the provider of the gpx) or have been generated by the GPS using the on-board map, if you are using it in some sort of autorouting mode. If they are pre-programmed points, then of course there is the possibility that they have been put in slightly the wrong place, or the 'wrong' place (since some people actually prefer to place routepoints after the turns).
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The journey of discovery of an Edge 800 user continues (sounds a bit like Star Trek TNG... ::-)
When I rode the Alan Furley 110k recently the device worked really well, with two small problems.
At two junctions it didn't beep / indicate a route, even though when I got it wrong it told me quite firmly I was off course!
I've saved the details in RideWithGPS, as this was how I converted it from .gpx to .tcx
Is there a way (to be very specific, a non-techy way) to tweak the details to insert a prompt to beep / guide at that location?
I guess this highlights what folk say, i.e. "don't just rely on the Garmin" but hey, that's what I did, and I did get home OK ;)
Steve
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There's nothing unless you make use of 'proximity' alarms, but that's not really what they're for and I imagine over-using them would soon get very tiresome. (They're very good for marking things like info controls, with a warning distance of something like 200m)
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The journey of discovery of an Edge 800 user continues (sounds a bit like Star Trek TNG... ::-)
When I rode the Alan Furley 110k recently the device worked really well, with two small problems.
At two junctions it didn't beep / indicate a route, even though when I got it wrong it told me quite firmly I was off course!
I don't think this is a Garmin problem as such. But to do with Navteq who provide the routing information. Some junctions on lanes aren't coded correctly, so don't indicate a turn, because they are expecting the road to go straight on. I would say that on average you will come across a couple of these every 200km or so. As long as you have the off route alarm on, you won't lose much time.