1984

[Jacomus]

For some reason, I have read Farenheight 451 but as yet not managed to read the Real Deal so to speak - 1984.

I am now just over half way through it, and have to say, I have never read or watched anything that has frightened me more than 1984 is in the process of doing.

It is so chilling, that it has given me trouble sleeping, and I am walking around in a constant state of deja vu as I recognise various similarities to the book.

*needs a cuddle*

[bikenerd]

Once you've read the book, watch the film with John Hurt, Richard Burton and the girl who used to be in Casualty.
1984 on IMDB

[andygates]

Bloody grim, isn't it?  Between selectively editing the past and the image of "a boot stamping on a human face, forever" it's shudderingly horrid.  

The Two-Minute Hate is a bleakly cynical observation, always makes me think of Fox News (who, apparently, are struggling to put the hate down on a financial crisis with no leader or figurehead - bless).  

There's hope, though.  Information is so dispersed now that the Memory Hole can't work.  

[Notsototalnewbie]

One of the reasons I chose my uni was because in the final year I got to do a module on dystopian fiction and read loads about it. I have a bit of a thing for it. I can read it over and over.

Also try Brave New World.

My own personal nightmare-giver was Children of the Dust (a children's book about nuclear war).

[LEE]

There's hope, though.  Information is so dispersed now that the Memory Hole can't work.  

And if the UK Government pulled the plug on the Internet and punished any attempt to access it by death, what would happen?

It's very easy to track people using the internet/phones/mobile phones and so on.

It's happening now in several countries (maybe not by death but I wouldn't want to get caught disseminating anti-government info in North Korea or Durkastan for example).

Ohh goody, I just heard Chocolate Rations have been increased, I love this Government.

[Really Ancien]

There's hope, though.  Information is so dispersed now that the Memory Hole can't work.  

And if the UK Government pulled the plug on the Internet and punished any attempt to access it by death, what would happen?

It's very easy to track people using the internet/phones/mobile phones and so on.

It's happening now in several countries (maybe not by death but I wouldn't want to get caught disseminating anti-government info in North Korea or Durkastan for example).

Ohh goody, I just heard Chocolate Rations have been increased, I love this Government.

The era of free access to information on the Internet will be very short. It's a business model based on false assumptions about potential advertising revenue, anything worth knowing will eventually have to be paid for. So Fahrenheit 451 is probably a better starting place than 1984, in that it is about information. That which is common has no value.
Any dystopia about the Internet has to address the erosion of self-reliance. The true rebellion is to lead an unmediated life, paranoia about state intrusion is less a problem than the extent to which people spy on themselves as a sort of display. Most would see it as a good thing to be spied on in the 'look at me' society. The savage in Brave New World would be unusual today not only for his attachment to romantic love but also because he's not on facebook.

Damon.

[Tom B]

Jacomus, 'Nineteen Eighty-Four' is the novel I've read more times than any other. It disturbs me less now than when I first read it age 18 but the satirical aspect (some would say it is mainly satirical) impresses me greatly.

Do post again when you've finished it and let us know what you think 


NSTN said:

I have a bit of a thing for it. I can read it over and over

Oooh, something we have in common besides a penchant for Swobo merino 

[pcolbeck]

The era of free access to information on the Internet will be very short. It's a business model based on false assumptions about potential advertising revenue, anything worth knowing will eventually have to be paid for.
Damon.

I don't think your correct there. Lots of sites don't need advertising revenue. Think of the library model. Universities and the like will also still publish information for free. Google  has a working advertising model for search so you will still be able to find stuff. A lot of the sites that are reliant on making profits in future based on unrealistic advertising models are full of rubbish anyway. We could easily do without Facebook and the rest of the Web 2 nonsense.

[Wowbagger]

I think I'd read all of Orwell by the time I was 18 with the exception of Homage to Catalonia, which just confused me, partly because of my ignorance of the history of the period and the constant reference to the different political factions by their initials.

I think his work is absolutely superb, albeit thoroughly depressing.

[Really Ancien]

I think I'd read all of Orwell by the time I was 18 with the exception of Homage to Catalonia, which just confused me, partly because of my ignorance of the history of the period and the constant reference to the different political factions by their initials.

I think his work is absolutely superb, albeit thoroughly depressing.

Was Orwell a member of the International Brigades ?

Damon.

[Tom B]

Wowbagger said:

I think his work is absolutely superb, albeit thoroughly depressing

His chosen subjects and many of his pen portraits are certainly dark but for me there is something about his honesty, integrity and faith in humanity that shine through and dispels any lasting feeling of gloom.

[LEE]

My point about easy access to widely dispersed information is that it could be switched off by a Government so inclined rather than the economics of the Internet.

If you had no phone service, mobile phone service, broadband service and a Government intent on tracking down people who attempted to bypass the 'blockade' how would you go about it?

We'll start with a large dose of courage.

[Really Ancien]

My point about easy access to widely dispersed information is that it could be switched off by a Government so inclined rather than the economics of the Internet.

If you had no phone service, mobile phone service, broadband service and a Government intent on tracking down people who attempted to bypass the 'blockade' how would you go about it?

We'll start with a large dose of courage.

I'd start with a library ticket just like I would have 10 years ago.

Damon.

[geraldc]

It was a set book when I was at school. Nothing removes the fear, like being forced to read a book when aged 15 and you'd rather be playing computer games.

[Hot Flatus]

I read this book about the same time I visited the Soviet Union.  It's pretty clear where his ideas came from.  Somewhat unusually the 80's film version is superb.... I wouldn;t have thought it possible to make such a good film version of the book.  The soundtrack is great too.

Once you've read it, and seen the film, get hold of a dvd of Gilliam's 'Brazil'

[pcolbeck]

I think I'd read all of Orwell by the time I was 18 with the exception of Homage to Catalonia, which just confused me, partly because of my ignorance of the history of the period and the constant reference to the different political factions by their initials.

I think his work is absolutely superb, albeit thoroughly depressing.

Was Orwell a member of the International Brigades ?

Damon.

No he was going to join but things got complicated with the infighting. He did fight for the leftist cause though and took a bullet in the throat.

[Really Ancien]

Alan Coren wrote a satire of 1984 in Punch, pointing out that the oppressive nature of the society depended on a degree of efficiency unknown in Britain, that theme informed Brazil. I can't find a transcript of that satire on the net, it's slipped off the radar leaving a load of over-earnest and under-informed comment. It's probably available in one of the anthologies. I do think that you ought to have to pay for these sort of things.

Damon.

[Really Ancien]

I think I'd read all of Orwell by the time I was 18 with the exception of Homage to Catalonia, which just confused me, partly because of my ignorance of the history of the period and the constant reference to the different political factions by their initials.

I think his work is absolutely superb, albeit thoroughly depressing.

Was Orwell a member of the International Brigades ?

Damon.

No he was going to join but things got complicated with the infighting. He did fight for the leftist cause though and took a bullet in the throat.

Actually the International Brigades were recruited by the Communist Parties. Orwell drifted into a left wing organisation called the POUM via the Independent Labour Party. Later he went back to try to join the International Brigades to get closer to the fighting. The Wiki article gives some more detail. Essentially he finally left Barcelona when the POUM was outlawed and suppressed by the Republican side. (The goodies.)

Orwell set out for Spain on about 23 December, dining with Henry Miller in Paris on the way. A few days later at Barcelona, he met John McNair of the ILP Office who quoted him: "I've come to fight against Fascism".[21] Orwell stepped into a complex political situation in Catalonia. The Republican government was supported by a number of factions with conflicting aims, including the Workers' Party of Marxist Unification (POUM — Partido Obrero de Unificación Marxista), the anarcho-syndicalist CNT and the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia a wing of the Spanish Communist Party, which was backed by Soviet arms and aid. The Independent Labour Party (ILP) contingent was linked to the POUM and so Orwell joined the POUM.

After a time at the Lenin Barracks in Barcelona he was sent to the relatively quiet Aragon Front under Georges Kopp. By January 1937 he was at Alcubierre 1500 feet above sea level in the depth of winter. There was very little military action, and the lack of equipment and other deprivations which made it uncomfortable. Orwell, with his Cadet Corps and police training was quickly made a corporal. On the arrival of a British ILP Contingent about three weeks later, Orwell and the other English militiaman, Williams, were sent with them to Monte Oscuro. The newly-arrived ILP contingent included Bob Smillie, Bob Edwards, Stafford Cottman and Jack Branthwaite. The unit were then sent on to Huesca.

Meanwhile, back in England, Eileen had been handling the issues relating to the publication of The Road to Wigan Pier before setting out for Spain herself, leaving Aunt Nellie Limouzin to look after The Stores. Eileen volunteered for a post in John McNair's office and with the help of Georges Kopp paid visits to her husband, bringing him English tea, chocolate and cigars. Orwell had to spend some days in hospital with a poisoned hand and had most of his possessions stolen by the staff. He returned to the front and saw some action in night attack on the Nationalist trenches where he chased an enemy soldier with a bayonet and bombed an enemy rifle position.

In April, Orwell returned to Barcelona where he applied to join the International Brigades to become involved in fighting closer to Madrid. However this was the time of Barcelona May Days and Orwell was caught up in the factional fighting. He spent much of the time on a roof, with a stack of novels, but encountered Jon Kimche from his Hampstead days during the stay. Instead of joining the International Brigades, he decided to return to the Aragon Front. Orwell was considerably taller than the Spanish fighters and was warned against standing against the trench parapet. One morning a sniper's bullet caught him in the throat. Unable to speak, and with blood pouring from his mouth, Orwell was stretchered to Siétamo, loaded on an ambulance and after a bumpy journey via and Barbostro arrived at the hospital at Lerida. He recovered sufficiently to get up and on the 27 May 1937 was sent on to Tarragona and two days later to a POUM sanatorium in the suburbs of Barcelona.The bullet had missed his main artery by the barest margin and his voice was barely audible. He received electrotherapy treatment and was declared medically unfit for service.

By the middle of June the political situation in Barcelona had deteriorated and the POUM — seen by the Communists as a Trotskyist organisation — was outlawed and under attack. Members, including Kopp, were arrested and others were in hiding. Orwell and his wife were under threat and had to lay low, although they broke cover to try to help Kopp.

Finally with their passports in order, they escaped from Spain by train, diverting to Banyuls-sur-Mer for a short stay before returning to England. Orwell's experiences in the Spanish Civil War gave rise to Homage to Catalonia (1938).

Damon.

[Wascally Weasel]

Ken Loach's 'Land and Freedom' is a film from the point of view of a (fictionalised AFAIK) young man who went to Spain to fight for the International Brigades and ended up fighting for the POUM.  His story seems to echo that of Orwell's, something I didn't know on first viewing, having not read 'Homage to Catalonia' before seeing it.

I found it a very powerful and moving film, probably made more so by the director's signature style of shooting sequentially as much as possible, emotions in it are very raw.

There's a section where villagers and militia members have a debate about collectivisation and it's not as boring as it sounds.

I've re-read 1984 a fair few times but my favourite of his books is possibly 'Downa nd out in Paris and London'.

I think I'll give 'Land and Freedom' another watch tonight.

[LEE]

Once you've read it, and seen the film, get hold of a dvd of Gilliam's 'Brazil'

Good call 


(my own copy of 'Brazil' is next to my copy of '1984')

Errr... Robert de Niro as a Central Heating Engineeer/Resistance Fighter?  Surely he must have fired his agent after this.

[Really Ancien]

I think I'll give 'Land and Freedom' another watch tonight.

I haven't seen the film but I am familiar with the history of the Spanish Civil War and the factional infighting is an interesting part of it, as this selection of conflicting reviews from the 'left' shows. Land and Freedom - several reviews
There is a danger that a lot of the satire in 1984 is missed because of a lack of historical context.

Damon.

[Notsototalnewbie]

NSTN said:

I have a bit of a thing for it. I can read it over and over

Oooh, something we have in common besides a penchant for Swobo merino 

Good thing the dystopian fiction penchant is cheaper, eh.

[pcolbeck]

I think I'll give 'Land and Freedom' another watch tonight.

I haven't seen the film but I am familiar with the history of the Spanish Civil War and the factional infighting is an interesting part of it, as this selection of conflicting reviews from the 'left' shows. Land and Freedom - several reviews
There is a danger that a lot of the satire in 1984 is missed because of a lack of historical context.

Damon.

I have Antony Beevor's "The Battle for Spain" on my bookshelf waiting to be read. If it's as good as his other books it should be a good read.

[Flying_Monkey]

There is a danger that a lot of the satire in 1984 is missed because of a lack of historical context.

Indeed - and as someone whose job it is to study surveillance, I do get a bit weary of all the 'Big Brother' analogies that are thrown around. Orwell didn't write Nineteen Eighty-Four (not 1984 BTW - pedant's point!) as a predictive novel, however much elements of what goes on now seem to resonate - as do elements of Brave New World, or Kafka's The Trial. You really need to talk to some people who grew up in Eastern Europe at the time of Stalin to understand this - a colleague of mine, a Polish dissident who now lives in Canada tends to be quite short with people who think there's no difference...

Orwell was very influenced by Zamyatin's earlier satirical dystopia, We ('My' in Russian). That too is worth a read, and it is worth watching George Lucas' first (and best) film, THX1138, which draws significantly on the same source. I'd certainly agree that the 1980s film version, 1984, is good.

[Really Ancien]

There is often a focus on Dystopias rather than Utopias, we can more easily agree with descriptions and coded condemnations of repressive aspects of society than with prescriptions which can seem dated and a bit barmy. Aldous Huxley's Island
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_(novel)
is an interesting case in point. There are lots of drugs and free love and a rejection of the family. This is the authentic voice of the emotionally repressed childhood that the English middle class were subject to. With their cold parents and boarding schools mucking up their psyches.
However, Huxley would have been excited by the possibilities of combining working close to the soil and access to intellectual discourse afforded by the internet.
Strangely the wiki link doesn't work directly but does from Google.
Google

Damon.