Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: marna on 11 April, 2008, 11:04:40 am
-
There are, I hear, special magic wedges that you can use to reduce the reach on Shimano brake levers. How would I go about finding them? My wiggle-fu is not all it should be today. And how would I go about installing them? I'm not scared of taking things apart, but do you need a selection of special tools or anything?
(When I am on the hoods the reach is fine, but on the drops only my fingertips can reach the brakes, so I'm reluctant to use the drops if I am whizzing at speed, and whizzing at speed is the best time to be using them.)
-
I think they're only for Shimano STIs, Marna - you have bar-end gear levers, don't you? Having seen the set that my friend Corrine (one of the Bike Whisperers (http://www.thebikewhisperer.co.uk/)) has done on her bike, I was very impressed. Apparently, she "double shims" using both of the two different bits of plastic you can buy to get the lever even closer than Shimano originally intended.
Corrine is a mine of information for women's specific kit. Give her a ring or drop her an email through the site :)
-
What make & model of bars do you have? The shape can make a big difference to the reach to the levers from the drops. There are some that are made to minimise this - from Deda and Terry, for example.
-
Soddit, I'm de-cloaking :)
I've PM'd Marna with some info but would like to add that not only the bars but also the position of the shifters on the bars makes a big difference too as to how easy it is to get more than fingertips to the levers.
No amount of fiddling with the position would have sorted it for me though, I did need the shims, and had to buy the right shifters to take them as the old STI's wouldn't. I have small hands but didn't double-shim, I'd have lost some of the braking power despite lots of adjustment.
Spent forever setting up the position of shifters on bars and it was well worth doing it, even though I did have to re-tape twice in the end.
-
After a Google I'm not sure Terry make handlebars any more :(
There is the Deda 4 Girls one "designed by women for women". It may help, despite having an "anatomical" shape which does increase reach. Maybe they've done something else to counter it?
www.dedaelementi.com/cat_racing.asp
-
After a Google I'm not sure Terry make handlebars any more :(
There is the Deda 4 Girls one "designed by women for women". It may help, despite having an "anatomical" shape which does increase reach. Maybe they've done something else to counter it?
www.dedaelementi.com/cat_racing.asp
I seem to recall from previous discussions of this nature elsewhere that 3T Morphe bars are quite good for the smaller hand and brake lever reach.
-
I think they're only for Shimano STIs, Marna - you have bar-end gear levers, don't you? Having seen the set that my friend Corrine (one of the Bike Whisperers (http://www.thebikewhisperer.co.uk/)) has done on her bike, I was very impressed. Apparently, she "double shims" using both of the two different bits of plastic you can buy to get the lever even closer than Shimano originally intended.
Corrine is a mine of information for women's specific kit. Give her a ring or drop her an email through the site :)
Yes - bar ends. Boo! A smidge of the reason for getting bar ends was that the smaller lever would make reach problems less of an issue. And this has worked to an extent - I couldn't reach the brakes at all on most of the bikes I looked at.
I wonder how bodgeable this is?
-
After a Google I'm not sure Terry make handlebars any more :(
There is the Deda 4 Girls one "designed by women for women". It may help, despite having an "anatomical" shape which does increase reach. Maybe they've done something else to counter it?
www.dedaelementi.com/cat_racing.asp
The Deda4Girls is quite good, but still not as good as the 3T Morphe Bars. But they are tricky to find online. Wiggle ran out, IIRC.
-
What make & model of bars do you have? The shape can make a big difference to the reach to the levers from the drops. There are some that are made to minimise this - from Deda and Terry, for example.
I don't know! Isn't that rubbish? The bike receipt is at home, though - I can consult it later. The person who fitted the bike in Condor tried several before finding ones that were little enough, so I suspect I already have small-pawed bars. (And they are incredibly comfortable in every other way.)
-
I wonder how bodgeable this is?
I've seen other people's accounts of bodging, and it seems quite successful. Does need much care though, because once you've adjust the braking for the fact that the levers are closer to the bars (and your hands expect them to be there too) if you lose a shim then suddenly the lever's further away, and the brakes also take a lot longer before they start to bite when you apply them.
-
I have the Shimano short reach levers and Deda 4 Girls bars on one bike, and Campag levers with 3T Morphe on another bike.
I prefer the Campag and Morphe set up.
-
Spent forever setting up the position of shifters on bars and it was well worth doing it, even though I did have to re-tape twice in the end.
Maybe this would be a good place to start fiddling, then? I'd really rather not have to get new *anything*, and I reckon another centimetre of finger-on-bar would make the difference in me being confident about reaching them.
Looking at the bike, actually, I think this might do it. Moving them down a smidge will adjust the angle that they're at by a fair amount.
Oh noes, though, re-taping the bars! I haven't done that since I was fifteen, and I made a right mess of it then. (I wish I had decided this *before* the bike's six-week service.)
-
I seem to recall from previous discussions of this nature elsewhere that 3T Morphe bars are quite good for the smaller hand and brake lever reach.
3T Morphe are definitely better at reducing reach than average modern bars. (I have average man-size hands, but still I enjoy a short reach too). I was thinking bars "designed for women" should be even better, but it seems not in the case of Deda.
Marna, the make of the bars may be indicated on a badge towards the centre, but probably not the model. I can understand not wanting to change the bars, though, if you're happy with them in every other way.
Yes, experimenting with lever position (and in turn, handlebar tilt position) is the first thing to try.
-
Marna - you might be able to wiggle the bar angle around a bit to improve this (that's what I needed to do with mine, although that was more for the hoods than the drops). I'll prob still be in when you come over tonight - want me to have a look at them? The other relevant thing may be your hand position.
It's also worth noting that you don't necessarily need much more than fingertips to the drops - they start to come forward pretty fast & then you get a bit more hand on 'em. When I'm riding on the drops my hands are usually off the brakes (unless I need them) - to use them I shove my hands right forward & twist them a bit. Um. I can show you what I mean better than I can write it!
-
The new range of dura ace due out at the end of the year will have adjustible reach levers. Not that I'm being much help but hey!
-
Marna, not sure. Altering where mine are on the bars also changes the angles for when you are on the hoods on them, and there was a clear compromise I had to make. With them in spot-on for hoods, they were way too far away on the fingertips for the drops.
What I did find useful, though, was realising that the horns could be in the same place at the same angle in relation to my hands/rest of bike, but in a different place on the bars, with the bars at a slightly different angle (rotated in the stem clamp).
I have a narrow anatomic type set of bars on my bike though can't recall whose they are right now.
What I did in the end was tape the bars with not as tight taping around the horns as would be normal, but still have it there as it makes a bit difference to the hand position, which let me change the position of the shifters easily for slight adjustments up/down and also rotate inwards/outwards to experiment.
I also undid and redid the taping as needed, for the most part with enough success that the tape was where it needed to be for testing it, though it wouldn't have stood up to wet or any reasonable distance of riding.
Once I was happy, I left it for a while to be sure, then ripped all the tape off and redid it properly.
If I ever get back on the bike regularly I fully expect further tweaking and have some nice bar tape ready for the occasion :)
You'd be welcome to pop in if you're anywhere near (30 mins SE from Northampton) to have a go with my adjustable levers (it's on the turbo still) though they are STI so both brake and gear, can't cope with bar-end shifters.
-
*waves* hello Velvet! I remember the debate when you came up with this problem on uk.rec.cycling. Seemed to get a bit heated by the end!
-
Hello BentMikey!!
Yes, it did! Note I have not mentioned any of my reasons why I finally put the short levers on there, to avoid stirring any potential several-years-old hornet nest ;-)
Problems were solved by a) short-reach STI shifters/levers, b) replacement of the appalling excuses for brake blocks shimano use.
-
Marna - you might be able to wiggle the bar angle around a bit to improve this (that's what I needed to do with mine, although that was more for the hoods than the drops). I'll prob still be in when you come over tonight - want me to have a look at them? The other relevant thing may be your hand position.
I have just tried moving the bars forward a tiny bit, to see what difference that might make. It feels odd, on an initial pedal-round-the-office, and I'm not sure it's improved matters, but I'll see how it feels on the cycle home. And I'll bring the bike to yours later, and we can have a proper poke and prod at it.
(It is not impossible that the reach is fine, and me feeling worried is just further evidence of my eternal scardeycatishness.)
-
The new range of dura ace due out at the end of the year will have adjustible reach levers. Not that I'm being much help but hey!
No! No upgrading the shiny new bike! (Also I love my lovely bar-end shifters too much.)
-
What I did in the end was tape the bars with not as tight taping around the horns as would be normal, but still have it there as it makes a bit difference to the hand position, which let me change the position of the shifters easily for slight adjustments up/down and also rotate inwards/outwards to experiment.
That sounds like a good plan, actually. I've just shifted the bars down a bit, and I'll see how that pans out on the cycle home. If it hasn't made a difference (and if Juliet notices no major flaws with my hand-positioning), then I'll have a go at that next, I think.
It sounds like an all-day job, with lots of laps of the park.
-
Marna - you might be able to wiggle the bar angle around a bit to improve this (that's what I needed to do with mine, although that was more for the hoods than the drops). I'll prob still be in when you come over tonight - want me to have a look at them? The other relevant thing may be your hand position.
I have just tried moving the bars forward a tiny bit, to see what difference that might make. It feels odd, on an initial pedal-round-the-office, and I'm not sure it's improved matters, but I'll see how it feels on the cycle home. And I'll bring the bike to yours later, and we can have a proper poke and prod at it.
(It is not impossible that the reach is fine, and me feeling worried is just further evidence of my eternal scardeycatishness.)
*sputter of coffee everywhere*
I had to go back and check my original posting there ;-)
-
I have struggled with a comfortable finger to lever distance, and found the best way is to not figure of 8 the levers, see my pics. This lets me get my hand further into the hook, and reach the levers so much more easily, and you may think it is a small amount of tape, but it makes a big difference.
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t299/jacomus-rides-Gen/Photo-0108.jpg)
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t299/jacomus-rides-Gen/Photo-0109.jpg)
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t299/jacomus-rides-Gen/Photo-0110.jpg)
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t299/jacomus-rides-Gen/Photo-0111.jpg)
-
I've tried the journey home with the bars a little further down, and that was even less brake-reachable than normal. (Also, and this may be just my not being used to it, I lean too much on the bars and would end up sore-pawed fairly swiftly.)
I have just now switched them to be up a little instead, so I'll give that a go tomorrow.
I have struggled with a comfortable finger to lever distance, and found the best way is to not figure of 8 the levers, see my pics. This lets me get my hand further into the hook, and reach the levers so much more easily, and you may think it is a small amount of tape, but it makes a big difference.
Ooh, that would be a much better option than putting in some sort of shim, if it makes enough difference. (And I don't think I need too much difference.) That seems like a sensible next thing to try, before attempting to reposition them. Thank you!
-
I hope it works for you - it solved it for me like magic.
It takes a bit of careful taping to get it right, and a tight wrap is essential, but you will figure that out as soon as you do it.
Best of luck! :thumbsup:
-
I hope it works for you - it solved it for me like magic.
It takes a bit of careful taping to get it right, and a tight wrap is essential, but you will figure that out as soon as you do it.
Best of luck! :thumbsup:
All paws crossed! I haven't retaped bars since I was about fifteen (and then it was messy!), so I expect there to be lots of trial and error and weeping. I'll report back.
-
It occurs to me that if you wind back the bar tape allowing you to experiment with lever position and find the best position for you, then re-tape using JrG's method, you will have enough surplus tape when re-taping to ensure a nice tidy finish. Thus, with some 'prodding and poking' :o you should achieve the best lever position and get the benefit of the tape trick.
You might need some electricians tape to tidily trim off the tape once you are finished.
-
It occurs to me that if you wind back the bar tape allowing you to experiment with lever position and find the best position for you, then re-tape using JrG's method, you will have enough surplus tape when re-taping to ensure a nice tidy finish. Thus, with some 'prodding and poking' :o you should achieve the best lever position and get the benefit of the tape trick.
You might need some electricians tape to tidily trim off the tape once you are finished.
Indeed, I forgot to mention this - taping like this allows you IME to shuffle the levers up and down a little witout having to untape, and without ruining the wrap.
-
The Deda4Girls is quite good, but still not as good as the 3T Morphe Bars. But they are tricky to find online. Wiggle ran out, IIRC.
Waves hello!
No! Please don't let them stop doing Morphes :'(
The last pair I bought were in Evans at Waterloo.
-
OK, one side of my bars has been stripped of tape. Just retaping makes very little difference, but wriggling the levers down a couple of milimeters seems to have made *all* the difference. Hurrah!
But now I have a new problem. I have those bonus extra interrupter levers on the tops, and to wiggle the main levers down I have to wiggle those across. I have tiny bars anyway, so every little bit of space is needed, so what I want to do is move those back a bit. How? I'd guess I need a longer length of cable housing. I can tape everything back up and nip down to the bike shop and get some. Do I need anything else?
Sorry for my extreme dimness here.
(Also, Roswell the kelpto-kitty has trotted off with my light fitting clutched in her little mouth. Bad cat!)
-
Worst case, you might need to replace the brake cable (although you might be able to get enough spare by loosening the brakes & feeding a bit of cable upwards). I've got some brake cable & outer if you want it - am about to go out though so it'd have to wait till tomorrow!
-
I haven't seen marna's bicycle but I have seen plenty of others and Jacomus's set up isn't very unusual nor is the problem of reaching the brakes whilst on the drops. The problem is that no matter how the bar is angle or the position of the brake lever the hand, wrist and lower arm are all generally at the same angle for the same rider, and naturally the hand will point diagonally down towards the front hub or just in front of it. One can twist the wrist forward only so much. The modern fashion of the brake lever hoods high like Jacomus's places the brake lever high and forward and beyond the reach of some peoples hands. Anatomic (ha!) bars make things worse as the comfy hand hold part encourages the hand to point down towards the hub and not towards the lever, it gives a hand hold which doesn't allow some riders to pull their brake lever very effectively. Perhaps Stis/Ergos require the hood to be longer and thus place the brake lever further away and anatomic bars are some kind of response to that. I ditched mine and my STis a few years ago for a tried and tested set up.
-
Worst case, you might need to replace the brake cable (although you might be able to get enough spare by loosening the brakes & feeding a bit of cable upwards). I've got some brake cable & outer if you want it - am about to go out though so it'd have to wait till tomorrow!
It's ok! I have some, and I don't need it. I moved both levers to the New! Improved! position, and cycled to the bike shop to see if they had brake cable covers. (And bar tape because I tore mine. Well done me.) But coming there and back I decided that things were too far forward for the hoods, so the latest setup is somewhere halfway between that and the old one, and I don't *quite* have to move the interrupter bars.
-
One can twist the wrist forward only so much. The modern fashion of the brake lever hoods high like Jacomus's places the brake lever high and forward and beyond the reach of some peoples hands.
Mine are almost certainly fashionably high too - they don't look all that different from Jacomus's setup, and my bike is almost shiny new. I'm still pretty new to this cycling lark, though, so I don't have much to compare it to. I do know that they're incredibly comfortable - at least compared to the flat-bar bike I used to ride - when on the hoods. Moving either the levers or the bars too far down stops this being so comfy. I mostly cycle in London (my lovely new bike has been out of London twice), so living mostly on the hoods makes sense. Now I want to go and look up pictures of bar-setup throughout the ages, to see the differences.
I have done many laps of the park today, and one thing that I did notice is that the drops are more comfortable when I'm hunkered down more, and my reach is better then, too. So possibly the next thing I need to do is to play around with my posture when using them, and see what I can improve there. I think I've adjusted the poor bike enough for the moment.
Is spare bar-tape useful at all for anything? I have oodles left over and no ideas about what to do with it.
I found my light fitting (kleptokitten is not very original with her hiding places), and the bike is taped up again and hopefully more drop-reach-able. If it's not, I'll investigate new levers, because I think I've done all the re-arranging I can. I have rewarded myself with a glass of wine and Leonard Cohen on the hi-fi. (Empty house = singing along. Sorry, cats!)
-
marna, Hi. In what way are lower brake levers or bars less comfortable ? back? wrists? shoulders ? neck ? I can only speak from my experience and of course can give no guarantees that what works for me will work for you. When I used STis and anatomic bars I found the hoods and levers too far away from me but the tops were right. This is how I decided the handlebar shape itself was wrong. The STis hoods were also too fat and square and my hand hurt after a while. I prefer to hold them in the bit between my thumb and index finger and if I need to curl my finger around them. My curly bars and regular brake levers bring the brake levers closer to me so the angle that my arm and wrist makes allows me to pull the brake lever properly from hoods or drops. It's more of a push from hoods actually though it is the same finger action. With the picture of my bike in mind I have imagined how I might be with your set up, my arms will not change their angle much, well they'd have to to be able reach the brakes from the hoods, I'd have to drop my elbows to enable me to bend my wrist up more which in turn would cause my shoulders to ache more. I don't think I'd be supported much on the handlebar and this would effect the control of the steering too. I have been riding bikes like this for over twenty years, I got used to this position by chance really then set up my newer bikes to match. STis and anatomic bars came along and didn't allow me to replicate it, so I sacked them. I know everyone is different with different preferences and different brake levers may well solve your issue, it did for me in part. Just some of my thoughts though on how I got my front end position just right.
-
Marna - if you're on the drops, then being a bit more bent over is prob a Good Thing anyway as it reduces your wind resistance. I find that I don't ever ride for all that long on the drops, because it's a bit of a strain - the bike's set up for most comfortable riding on the hoods. I only ever ride on the drops for downhill, into the wind occasionally, and the very occasional short hill.
-
marna, Hi. In what way are lower brake levers or bars less comfortable ? back? wrists? shoulders ? neck ?
Shoulders and neck, mostly. I find that to cover the brakes, I have to bend my elbows more than I'd like, and this causes me curve my upper back and shoulders and tense my shoulders and neck. I think my wrists would start complaining after a couple of miles on the drops, but I've never used them for that long. If I'm not covering the brakes I'm fine, but I'm far too cautious to go very swiftly at all without *knowing* that I can brake at a moment's notice. Or, if I'm descending, braking gently as I go. Possibly more fearless cyclists (that would be 99% of them) would be fine with my setup.
Your description sounds pretty much spot on, actually. If I could move the brakes a lot lower, or a lot nearer, it would be fine, but that's incompatible with having comfy hoods, from my experimenting. I don't have STIs, and that was partly because they made the hoods chunkier and I have fairly small hands. (It was mostly because of wanting friction shifting.)
What sort of bars do you use, out of interest? I probably can't afford to change mine yet (and I don't *need* to - I really very rarely take the bike (or me) out of London, and drops are not really useful in London, at least for very long), but ideas on what I might be looking at would be useful.
-
What sort of bars do you use, out of interest? I probably can't afford to change mine yet (and I don't *need* to - I really very rarely take the bike (or me) out of London, and drops are not really useful in London, at least for very long), but ideas on what I might be looking at would be useful.
I don't think any of my bars are the same brand, they are all very similar shape though. All are 40 or 42cm c-t-c (centre to centre)wide, all have 14cm drop from the top to the hook again measured c-t-c. All are curved in the traditional way as in this picture.
http://www.mseries.plus.com/hewitt.jpg (http://www.mseries.plus.com/hewitt.jpg) those are Profile H20, I think another set may be ITM.
-
Marna,
You might want to try a non-anatomical bar.
Ribble are selling off Cinelli Model 66 bars, these are quite narrow, very rounded and you can move the brake levers around a lot.
In theory, they are the wrong size (diameter of tubing) for modern road ahead stems. In practice they fit fine, although they'd fit a mountain bike stem slightly better.
Also top tip for people who have to retape their bars here!
Bontrager gel tape is not very thick and has a rubbery backing and no adhesive. you can take it on and off the bars over and over again. You can even wash it in the sink! It's brilliant stuff.
-
Marna,
You might want to try a non-anatomical bar.
Ribble are selling off Cinelli Model 66 bars, these are quite narrow, very rounded and you can move the brake levers around a lot.
In theory, they are the wrong size (diameter of tubing) for modern road ahead stems. In practice they fit fine, although they'd fit a mountain bike stem slightly better.
That would be awesome (and cheap enough that I could buy a set and see if that improved things), but they only have 40cm ones, and I need 36cm. I am too small!
I think hunting up a non-anatomical one might be the way to go, though.