Author Topic: Close pass campaign comes to London  (Read 6467 times)

Close pass campaign comes to London
« on: 21 July, 2017, 02:34:46 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2017/jul/21/undercover-police-target-london-drivers-who-pass-too-close-to-cyclists

It will be interesting to see what effect that has.

They won't have to look too far for offenders:
http://road.cc/content/news/226167-near-miss-day-17-close-pass-police-car

Anyway, I am a bit troubled by the lack of further comment on this bit:

Quote
It was a matter of minutes before a woman driving a small red car overtook within 10cm of the officer’s bike. The motorbike-mounted officer headed off, returning moments later with the driver behind.

She said she hadn’t seen the cyclist.

She's obviously read the papers. Hopefully words were had and eye tests performed. My view is that drivers who say they didn't see large objects in the road in front of them should not be allowed to drive.


Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #1 on: 21 July, 2017, 02:58:30 pm »
My view is that drivers who say they didn't see large objects in the road in front of them should not be allowed to drive.

So true, I fully agree.

Eddington: 133 miles    Max square: 43x43

Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #2 on: 21 July, 2017, 03:40:36 pm »
Quote
Beside a south London park, a group of police officers waited beside a marked van set back from the road, one on a motorbike – as a man on an electric bike passed back and forth along the road.

It was a matter of minutes before a woman driving a small red car overtook within 10cm of the officer’s bike. The motorbike-mounted officer headed off, returning moments later with the driver behind.

They're going to be kept busy!

Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #3 on: 21 July, 2017, 04:32:50 pm »
Slightly off topic, but there are times when the cycling infrastructure seems designed to encourage close passes. There are quite a few bike lanes like this in Oxford. How do you do a safe pass on this street:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7524841,-1.221403,3a,75y,214.63h,60.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgHgepFMQJ4wzPYLMf4SEEw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It's a 20 zone, so as a cyclist I often take the lane, but that always pisses off drivers. When I drive down there I'm frequently tailgated and occasionally beeped if I don't overtake cyclists. In what way does that cycle lane improve things for a cyclist?

Kim

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Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #4 on: 21 July, 2017, 04:58:19 pm »
In what way does that cycle lane improve things for a cyclist?

It shows them exactly where not to ride if they don't want to get doored!

More seriously, lanes like this are typical of the sort of rubbish that well-intentioned non-cyclists come up with that actively makes things worse for those on bikes.  I accept that there may be a proportion of newbie cyclists who aren't aware of the relevant dangers and may be encouraged to cycle by the presence of such lanes.

Coming back on topic:  Drivers are programmed by experience to believe that if they stay in their lane and another vehicle stays in an adjoining lane, then everything will be fine if they pass (they probably don't even think of it as an overtake).  In situations like this the close pass initiative guidance is directly contradicting that.  I'd suggest that to send a consistent message, painted cycle lanes should be widened to a minimum of 2.25metres, or removed altogether.

Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #5 on: 21 July, 2017, 05:04:03 pm »
Coming back on topic:  Drivers are programmed by experience to believe that if they stay in their lane and another vehicle stays in an adjoining lane, then everything will be fine if they pass (they probably don't even think of it as an overtake).  In situations like this the close pass initiative guidance is directly contradicting that.  I'd suggest that to send a consistent message, painted cycle lanes should be widened to a minimum of 2.25metres, or removed altogether.

Exactly.
If you have a driver mindset, it's like driving on the motorway - you drive along in the middle lane, the bike is going slowly in the inside lane, so long as you stay your side of the dotted white lines they stay theirs, everything is as it should be. The presence of the paint encourages this (and the concomitant reaction that cyclists should stay in the lane, no matter how dangerous). The number of cyclists I've seen riding outside that lane can be counted on the fingers of 1 hand... Remove the paint, and it would be a lot safer for cyclists.

Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #6 on: 22 July, 2017, 03:11:54 pm »
We got knocked off our tandem in Kendal town centre on a 'so called' cycle lane - on reflection, we would have been much safer riding with the motor traffic as effectively we were forced into a dangerous undertake on a narrow carriageway.

Pleased to see the met and other police forces tackling close passing

Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #7 on: 24 July, 2017, 08:50:42 pm »
Most of the ones caught in Brum were let off with a ticking off, presumably because they had a late arrival of common sense and didn't argue. 

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/birmingham-trucker-fined-driving-close-13310051

Hidden 1/2 way down the article it says that 2 of the nearly 200 had licences revoked at the roadside for failing eyesight tests :o

Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #8 on: 25 July, 2017, 01:26:01 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/25/road-safety-cyclist-hating-close-pass-cars

It's really unsettling to read some of the comments below that article.

On the plus side, sensible stuff from West Mids:

Quote
In a regular blog by West Midlands officers they mention the common complaint about the “close pass” operation: what about cyclist lawbreaking?

“Cyclists don’t cause us, as an organisation, problems,” they respond. “That’s because they aren’t causing our communities problems, they aren’t killing nearly 100 people on our region’s roads as mechanically propelled vehicles currently do.

“Bad cycling is an irritant to the wider community rather than a danger, and maybe an improvement in infrastructure and policing may alleviate many of the reasons that cause a very small minority of cyclists to be an irritant.”

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #9 on: 25 July, 2017, 01:57:40 pm »
It occurs to me the sensible stuff from West Mids and some others to some extent mirrors the general transport policy and policing landscape: There are plenty locally who get it and plenty who don't. Neither have many resources to work with. Meanwhile, there are those at the centre (ie the Dft, for these purposes the Met are another region) who also want to see a rebalancing of transport policy, but they can't admit it, because democracy. Which brings us round in a circle to those regions who know they have some support from the centre, but the centre can't be seen to support or fund them.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #10 on: 26 July, 2017, 07:56:10 am »

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #11 on: 26 July, 2017, 12:09:14 pm »
Are the police really intending to make examples of professional drivers? Why? Or is that just Arriva telling their drivers to behave? Is it even a genuine notice?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

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Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #12 on: 26 July, 2017, 12:14:54 pm »
Are the police really intending to make examples of professional drivers? Why?

Hudson and Hobson said they were in the context of enforcing 20mph speed limits.  Their reasoning being that a professional driver usually makes up a greater proportion of traffic than a non-professional one, which means their bad driving poses a greater risk (and their compliance with speed limits will have a greater effect of slowing everyone else down, too).

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #13 on: 26 July, 2017, 12:18:04 pm »
Hudson and Hobson? Thompson and Thomson?  ??? The reasoning makes sense in terms of setting an example, particularly with speed limits, but OTOH I reckon most professional drivers are better in terms of close passes than most non-professionals (except Natonal Express coach drivers).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #14 on: 26 July, 2017, 12:20:40 pm »
Oh and for some reason scaffolding lorries seem to be much worse driven than any other sort of lorry. Perhaps because the drivers are first and foremost scaffolders rather than professional drivers.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

benborp

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Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #15 on: 26 July, 2017, 12:25:52 pm »
Are the police really intending to make examples of professional drivers? Why? Or is that just Arriva telling their drivers to behave? Is it even a genuine notice?

The context is that the police have said that the operation is principally to educate drivers. If someone is caught they are given an opportunity to accept advice on how to drive around cyclists, similar to the original West Midlands initiative where prosecution for poor driving generally required the driver to fail to accept this advice. The Met have said that this courtesy will not extend to professional drivers and they will be reported for an offence. Arriva have taken that as meaning their drivers may be made an example of.
A world of bedlam trapped inside a small cyclist.

Kim

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Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #16 on: 26 July, 2017, 12:33:19 pm »
Hudson and Hobson? Thompson and Thomson?  ???

The West Midlands Police traffic unit's own Nobby and Vimes.  The ones who started this whole close pass thing.


Quote
The reasoning makes sense in terms of setting an example, particularly with speed limits, but OTOH I reckon most professional drivers are better in terms of close passes than most non-professionals (except Natonal Express coach drivers).

I'd agree that professional drivers of larger vehicles are generally quite good.  Even courier vans (they tend to limit their bad behaviour to creative parking).  As you say, vans and lorries driven by professionals whose work isn't primarily driving tend to be the ones who let the side down.

Minicab drivers, on the other hand, seem quite happy to speed or pass closely if they think they can get away with it.  Which they usually can.  I agree with the idea that the residential rat-runs of Birmingham would be a lot safer if they all decided to stick to the 20mph speed limit.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #17 on: 26 July, 2017, 01:00:28 pm »
Are the police really intending to make examples of professional drivers? Why? Or is that just Arriva telling their drivers to behave? Is it even a genuine notice?

The context is that the police have said that the operation is principally to educate drivers. If someone is caught they are given an opportunity to accept advice on how to drive around cyclists, similar to the original West Midlands initiative where prosecution for poor driving generally required the driver to fail to accept this advice. The Met have said that this courtesy will not extend to professional drivers and they will be reported for an offence. Arriva have taken that as meaning their drivers may be made an example of.
All is clear. Thank you!
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Afasoas

Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #18 on: 28 July, 2017, 08:42:51 pm »
The demonstrations depicting 1.5m clearance for 'passing' cyclists disturbs me.
Safe passing distance is a variable dependant upon relative speed, overall speed, traffic conditions, weather and size of overtaking vehicle.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #19 on: 20 March, 2018, 08:15:14 pm »
Close Pass goes into corporate education:
Quote
"The excellent officers at West Midlands Woodgate Valley Fire have already started large scale #OpClosePass education at a corporate level having been very well received at National Express Coventry and now Birmingham, serving up vulnerable road user education to up to 70 drivers in a day."
http://road.cc/content/news/238924-west-midlands-police-outline-how-their-award-winning-operation-close-pass-will

I recall NX drivers around the coach station in Birmingham being horrific, and they seem prone to dangerous overtaking of cyclists nationwide. Have any of our West Midland forumists noticed an improvement locally?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

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Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #20 on: 20 March, 2018, 09:00:27 pm »
I recall NX drivers around the coach station in Birmingham being horrific, and they seem prone to dangerous overtaking of cyclists nationwide. Have any of our West Midland forumists noticed an improvement locally?

Not really, but I haven't had much trouble with coach (or indeed bus) drivers generally.  There was a screenwash incident a while ago, but that was a First bus based out of Worcester.

I'm not sure there's been a change in car driver behaviour, but it's hard to tell as that's mostly influenced by what and where I'm riding, which changes with the seasons.

rogerzilla

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Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #21 on: 21 March, 2018, 05:42:08 pm »
Close passes (or worse) may become more common.  Lane Keep Assist on new cars, which has steering correction capability, will fight the driver if he/she tries to cross a white line without signalling - and few drivers signal for overtaking cyclists.  My car has it and it's a PITA - sometimes you want to give a sleeping/pr0n-watching lorry driver a wide berth, or use the width of the road to avoid an encroaching car at a T junction.  Thankfully I can dial it down so it does virtually nothing.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #22 on: 21 March, 2018, 05:53:12 pm »
Oh FFS !!   Partial automation is crap.
Rust never sleeps

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #23 on: 21 March, 2018, 07:18:20 pm »
Mazda let you turn off intervention so you just get a rumble through the stereo.  You can turn LKA off completely via a button, but it turns itself back on (it does remember the "intervention off" setting) when you start the engine.

It's a slightly pointless system because my (crappy at night) eyes still detect worn-out white lines better than it does.  Maybe it's good if you like to sleep at the wheel.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Jacomus

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Re: Close pass campaign comes to London
« Reply #24 on: 24 March, 2018, 01:04:22 pm »
As a cyclist... this is a great initiative.  :thumbsup:

As a lorry driver... it’s yet another way to persecute professional drivers.  :hand:

Overtaking cyclists in central London is pretty pointless, and I don’t tend to bother unless it’s a particularly wide road.

Dealing safely with cyclists at junctions is very stressful, as soon as you swing wide to make a tight turn, lemmings dive up the inside. Mopeds too, motorbikers tend to keep clear or already be gone. And the odd smart car or mini cab will have a go too!  :o

I’d like to see a greater focus on speed, specifically the lack of it. The best part of driving an artic through central London is that all the rage filled drivers who are exploding as you crawl around a nasty turn are 55ft and 44tons away  :P City driving should be trained much better than it is.

I’d also like to see the lorry ban reversed. Instead of forcing lorries to work in the daytime, when everyone else is working, swap it over to limit daytime to urban HGVs and allow nighttime access for heavies.



"The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity." Amelia Earhart