Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?

[MSeries]

In terms of the events entered, they are two separate events. Two organisers, two entry forms. There is a rule about the time limits, STFW for it. I don't know what it is. Not  a question of what I would allow, I don't make the rules, just expressing my view on my interpretation of them.

I actually think it's important to log that the calendar was finished, the extension plus the calendar DOES give the total distance.

[teethgrinder]

In terms of the events entered, they are two separate events. Two organisers, two entry forms. There is a rule about the time limits, STFW for it. I don't know what it is. Not  a question of what I would allow, I don't make the rules, just expressing my view on my interpretation of them.

I actually think it's important to log that the calendar was finished, the extension plus the calendar DOES give the total distance.

Yes, you're right about two entry forms. I agree that the calandar event should be logged as being completed too.
Perhaps the event could be done with just one entry form?* The rider would still need permission of the calander event organiser to ride the event, as well as the brevet card and routesheet, so would still need to enter the event because the brevet card would act as proof of passage.
It would also mean that failure to complete one of the rides, either the permanent or calander section would be a failure of the event, which was entered under one entry form.

It is a tricky question to answer though.




*I think that's what we did with DIYs which had calander events as a section of the ride.

[frankly frankie]

Also, if you think that ridng a 200 and 400 count as two seporate events, where do you stand on the time allowance if you ride a 300 and 400 where you would have a slower minimum speed of 13.3kmh if it was a 700, but not if it is two seporate events. Or would you allow a rest period. It would make things much more complicated.

The devil was always going to be in the detail with this project.  Personally I'm a great believer in crossing bridges when you come to them, so I would suggest it's up to Martin to resolve this when it arises, and once he's dealt with 1 or 2 it won't be complicated anymore.  (FWIW I think the event as run is sacrosanct so would be subject to the event speeds, but my interpretation would be the add-ons could be run at the 700 min speed NB not the total 700 max time but just for the addon bits)

Perhaps the event could be done with just one entry form?* The rider would still need permission of the calander event organiser to ride the event, as well as the brevet card and routesheet, so would still need to enter the event because the brevet card would act as proof of passage.

But really a design brief from the start was that this project would impact the event Organiser as little as possible.  Really s/he needs to know nothing about the ECE, that's how it should be, the org has enough to do as it is.   It's just someone riding to/from the event, same as it ever was.

[teethgrinder]

Perhaps the event could be done with just one entry form?* The rider would still need permission of the calander event organiser to ride the event, as well as the brevet card and routesheet, so would still need to enter the event because the brevet card would act as proof of passage.

But really a design brief from the start was that this project would impact the event Organiser as little as possible.  Really s/he needs to know nothing about the ECE, that's how it should be, the org has enough to do as it is.   It's just someone riding to/from the event, same as it ever was.

I thought there would be a reason for two forms. That's just plain sneaky, not letting the organiser know that their event is just a pawn in some grand plot.
I suppose it might be needed for PBP qualifiers too?
The entry form is only a bit of paper though. So you could just as easily send the organiser a letter asking for a ride instead of an entry form. Maybe an official ECE request form instead of an AUK entry form which could all be stored together by the organiser?

Sticking with the calander event timings makes sense on longer rides too. After all, almost everyone would want some sleep on long rides, so would have to gain the time in hand anyway.

[Deano]

Probably a daft question, but:

Does

160 + 40 = 200

in the same way that

100 + 100 = 200

?

I ask for a reason - I'll probably ride Dave's Dales Tour from Richmond on 8th May, which is 160 km.  Darlo to Richmond is about 21 km, so riding there and back will top 200 km.  I'll probably ride it, and ride to and from home anyway, but I'll take the points if I can get them!

Although I can't think of any reason why I couldn't round 160 km up to 200 km, all of the examples so far seem to imply that each ride needs to be a round distance (such as 200 + 100).  Hopefully this is owing to the rarity of 160 km events...

[Martin]

Deano; to answer your question,

John Ward administers all the awarding of points for ECE's etc on the website, I check the distances between controls and the calendar start and send /receive the ECE cards.

AIUI each ECE distance and configuration needs to have its own permanent "event" in order to allocate the extra points on the website. The distances you see under the ECE's are the most common we could think of to cover the main extensions but it's not an exhaustive list. We are initially only processing extensions of a round number of 50kms to tie in with the standard AUK event distances which 160 is not (although a 160 was my first Audax event). Would an extra 50km to / from the calendar event (with a dogleg on the way back to make an extra 10k) be OK? that way I'll get John to set up a 150+50 event.

Martin

[Deano]

Martin, that would be excellent!  I can easily add a bit extra to the route home.

I hope it's not too much work, mind (and that I'm not the only one who'll benefit )

[Martin]

I just had an email from John; he will set up the 150+50 when he gets your ECE card back; just write what distance and event you are extending on the entry form (or include it as a note if you use Paypal; please remember to include your AUK number if using Paypal; that way I can find your address using the AUK organisers' database).

I think there are still quite a few 150's in the calendar so it's not just you who will benefit

[mikewigley]

AIUI each ECE distance and configuration needs to have its own permanent "event" in order to allocate the extra points on the website.

Ah, this is a nuance that had passed me by.  I was considering adding 90km to make the Spring in the Dales 110 up to a 200, but I can appreciate this limitation.  I dare say I could manage a 100 + 110 = 200

[Martin]

AIUI each ECE distance and configuration needs to have its own permanent "event" in order to allocate the extra points on the website.

Ah, this is a nuance that had passed me by.  I was considering adding 90km to make the Spring in the Dales 110 up to a 200, but I can appreciate this limitation.  I dare say I could manage a 100 + 110 = 200

sorry; the ECE has to be a minimum of 50, 100, 150 etc. This is mainly to keep admin down but it is of course also possible to shortcut the calendar events to exact numbers of 100s using undesirable roads which is why so many are overdistance these days; and this may result in a combined event some distance short of 200 etc if you don't add the right ECE distance.

[mikewigley]

No problem, and obvious now you come mention it.  Any other system just wouldn't be workable

[frankly frankie]

Mike, I think you've got to unglue your tongue from the inside of your cheek ...

[Deano]

I just had an email from John; he will set up the 150+50 when he gets your ECE card back; just write what distance and event you are extending on the entry form (or include it as a note if you use Paypal; please remember to include your AUK number if using Paypal; that way I can find your address using the AUK organisers' database).

I think there are still quite a few 150's in the calendar so it's not just you who will benefit

It may be a while before I get the cards in: the event in question is three months away

[Martin]

It may be a while before I get the cards in: the event in question is three months away

no prob; I'm expecting 7 cards back over this and next weekend;

I've noticed that many of the 150's have a 100 and 200 the same day; is yours one of these?

[Spikey]

1) Can I extend a 150 ride with AAA points to a 200 with AAA points and possibly use it to count towards an AAA SR?

2) Beaing in mind that the ride in question is listed as 150Km but from experience I know it is actually 160Km, with a start 20Km from home, making 200Km total door to door. Is it sufficient to ride 20+160+20 = 200, or do I need to add an extra control to make 30+150+20=200 nominal (with 210Km actually ridden)?

[Martin]

1) Can I extend a 150 ride with AAA points to a 200 with AAA points and possibly use it to count towards an AAA SR?

2) Beaing in mind that the ride in question is listed as 150Km but from experience I know it is actually 160Km, with a start 20Km from home, making 200Km total door to door. Is it sufficient to ride 20+160+20 = 200, or do I need to add an extra control to make 30+150+20=200 nominal (with 210Km actually ridden)?

1) no; sorry, the calendar event stays exactly as it is, the ECE just adds distance. The calendar event will keep its AAAs and count towards AAARTY; and by ECE'ing it to 200 will also count for RRTY and SR; but it won't be an AAA 200. ECE's are an improvement over the old DIY+cal in this respect as previously it would have lost its AAA if extended.

2) see upthread; only extensions of 50, 100, 150, 200 etc are permitted; not 40's. Yes ride an extra 10km to or from the start via an extra control to make 210 total is OK.

you allude to the issue regarding the event; from experience you know it is 160; yes that's via the route sheet. It might only be 150 direct shortest route between controls and thus that's what it's billed as?. This is a fact of life as AUK tightens up on minimum distances.

it all comes down to admin; all of this has to be validated both before the ride and also on the website afterwards.

[Deano]

It may be a while before I get the cards in: the event in question is three months away

no prob; I'm expecting 7 cards back over this and next weekend;

I've noticed that many of the 150's have a 100 and 200 the same day; is yours one of these?

Sadly, no.  There's a 150, and two 100s.  I'll have to ask Dave Atkinson the next time I see him: there's probably some historical reason why it's a 100-miler.

[Spikey]

1) Can I extend a 150 ride with AAA points to a 200 with AAA points and possibly use it to count towards an AAA SR?

2) Beaing in mind that the ride in question is listed as 150Km but from experience I know it is actually 160Km, with a start 20Km from home, making 200Km total door to door. Is it sufficient to ride 20+160+20 = 200, or do I need to add an extra control to make 30+150+20=200 nominal (with 210Km actually ridden)?

1) no; sorry, the calendar event stays exactly as it is, the ECE just adds distance. The calendar event will keep its AAAs and count towards AAARTY; and by ECE'ing it to 200 will also count for RRTY and SR; but it won't be an AAA 200. ECE's are an improvement over the old DIY+cal in this respect as previously it would have lost its AAA if extended.

2) see upthread; only extensions of 50, 100, 150, 200 etc are permitted; not 40's. Yes ride an extra 10km to or from the start via an extra control to make 210 total is OK.

you allude to the issue regarding the event; from experience you know it is 160; yes that's via the route sheet. It might only be 150 direct shortest route between controls and thus that's what it's billed as?. This is a fact of life as AUK tightens up on minimum distances.

it all comes down to admin; all of this has to be validated both before the ride and also on the website afterwards.

Thanks for the reply. On that basis I'll just ride the calendar event from home as before, as I'm not currently interested in RRTY or overall points, and can't be bothered with the extra paperwork or adding the necesary extra 10K to satisfy the appropriate validation. If I manage the 300, 400 and 600AAA rides, then I'll plan a 200AAA ride later in the year.

[Martin]

you could try asking Steve Snook the AAA man for special recognition; as a greater than 100km AAA section within a 200 would normally qualify the 200 for AAA,

but all that will appear on the website results is

                                   Pts     AAA
150 calendar event        0      2.25 (a guess; 2.25 would be the minimum)
ECE  150+50                  2      0

[Stephen Kirkby]

Is there such thing as a "+ ECE 0" event, by which one could start say an organised 400k event at the 80K control and get the calendar "recognised" in the results?

[Martin]

Is there such thing as a "+ ECE 0" event, by which one could start say an organised 400k event at the 80K control and get the calendar "recognised" in the results?

sorry not sure what you mean   you can only add-on to a calendar event ( either before after or both) you cannot change any details of the event as this is extra work for the organiser.

"DIY + cals" no longer exist; all calendar events are validated in their own right whether ECE'd or not.

[mattc]

Is there such thing as a "+ ECE 0" event, by which one could start say an organised 400k event at the 80K control and get the calendar "recognised" in the results?

I think Stephen is talking about something very different to an ECE, but highly desirable!

Basically, if I ride say The Poor Student Perm on the same day as the calendar event, it would be nice if I was included in the Calendar results. Of course the Perm can be started at any control => hence Stephen's question. (I think).

[Stephen Kirkby]

"DIY + cals" no longer exist; all calendar events are validated in their own right whether ECE'd or not.

I think that's (partly) what I'm getting at.
The 80k control of the Severn Across is near where I live.
It would be nice to enter that event but avoid time/cost/unsociable hour by starting/finishing at that control. I'm sure this kind of thin has been done before. With new scheme, a completed brevet would result in Severn Across calendar event against my name in the results, rather than DIY 400.

[Martin]

Chris was talking about making the SA into a perm which would make it easier;

if you visit all the other controls (at the same time apart from the start) as the calendar event and just start and finish at another place en route I can't see why it would not be validated as part of the event; but it's between you and Chris to organise that. Getting your completed card back to the organiser is probably the only issue.

Beyond the remit of an ECE.

[frankly frankie]

The 80k control of the Severn Across is near where I live.
It would be nice to enter that event but avoid time/cost/unsociable hour by starting/finishing at that control. I'm sure this kind of thin has been done before. With new scheme, a completed brevet would result in Severn Across calendar event against my name in the results, rather than DIY 400.

You could always try for an arrangement with the Organiser.  It has been done, but of course the Org has no obligation to help you out.  Of course, you may be asked to start at a time to fit in with the existing control times.  ie, in this example, about 3h after the official start.