Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Ctrl-Alt-Del => Topic started by: inc on 04 July, 2009, 08:59:48 pm
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I have a strong dislike for multi millionaire spaceman Mark Shuttleworth and all he takes with little put back to the community, how he takes a snapshot of Sid and freeze it for six months until the next release, this is a nice article explaining better than me why. Cloned Distro's: Why Ubuntu sucks and should be banned - Journal - MrLinux's Lucky Fingers (http://www.linux.co.nz/journal/2009/7/3/cloned-distros-why-ubuntu-sucks-and-should-be-banned.html)
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Fair enough. Ubuntu's a distro for non-geeks. If you're a purist, it does indeed likely suck. but for mere mortals like me who just want an easy and comprehensive alternative to Win, it's ideal.
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"Clones are unstable."
That's hilarious. I spent years playing with Gentoo. Custom built from the ground up to suit my hardware perfectly. Hmm... crashed more often than Ubuntu.
Oh - and Ubuntu crashes waaaay less often than Windows - and that's good enough for me.
I'm not a Code Weanie. I actually want to use my PC for useful stuff. Ubuntu is fine.
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Well, there's come truth in that. You wouldn't, for example, use Ubuntu on a business-critical server; and Ubuntu's lack of contributions back upstream isn't terribly community-spirited. But what Ubuntu has contributed, is a greatly enlarged user base. And Ubuntu's measly 100 kernel patches is still 100 patches more than Microsoft has contributed!
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That's hilarious. I spent years playing with Gentoo. Custom built from the ground up to suit my hardware perfectly. Hmm... crashed more often than Ubuntu.
Gentoo is for geeks, compiling from source takes hours with no real advantage. I was talking more about how Ubuntu just takes from the totally non commercial Debian putting very little back to Linux in general. Why spend all those manhours coding for six months release intervals when all those man hours could be used developing Debian. I use Sid, I update daily. it is more recent than any version of Ubuntu but I installed the current system three years ago and it is stable with fixes for the recent X server and 2.6.30 kernel closed source driver problems as fast as Ubuntu. Making Linux more accessible is very credible to Ubuntu but the reality is Debian would be as good for most users. Ubuntu is a marketing over reality success.
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Making Linux more accessible is very credible to Ubuntu but the reality is Debian would be as good for most users.
But most users wouldn't have stumbled across Debian.
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Making Linux more accessible is very credible to Ubuntu but the reality is Debian would be as good for most users.
But most users wouldn't have stumbled across Debian.
Apathy rules OK, most people use Windows, says it all really.
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I spent years playing with Gentoo. Custom built from the ground up to suit my hardware perfectly. Hmm... crashed more often than Ubuntu.
Hmm. My Gentoo fileserver and general network dogsbody has uptime measured in years. OK, I rebooted it after 400 days when a disk crapped out and my cheapo RAID controller had a fit, but apart from that, pretty solid.
For desktop use, Windows just works - really it does. For work, well, my sysadmins are losing the will to live getting fault tolerant networking really working on RHEL, and a host of other stuff that they've had on Solaris for years.
It's just an OS - in the non-back end world, who really cares any more? Choose your platform for your particular apps, nothing else really matters.
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That article just sounds like sour grapes to me.
The author started his own distribution from scratch seven years ago (Yoper (http://www.yoper.com/)), aimed at the desktop. It seems to have enjoyed a brief period of popularity that waned at around the time Ubuntu came on to the scene; the author blames the distro's lack of success on Ubuntu and all the money that Ubuntu has behind it.
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That's just envy. What he says is:
I started this distro, with the aims of creating a desktop specific linux, and it was good and doing quite well, and then this milliionaire bloke came along and without innovation created a better, more hyped distro. Lots of people now run this distro and only the early adopters run mine.
So what? He then criticises all the clones for lack of innovation and says that a clone is by definition unstable. Well, if they do all this work on top of the base distro, then there is innovation, and if they don't, then they would have no usp and no difference with the base (and no instability problems). So his argument isn't even internally consistent. And look at his website (linked in PrettyBoyTim's post). Would you choose the linux distro from that homepage? The only mention of linux is on the forum links with someone asking if he can use his smartphone as a modem. It's fundamentally unprofessional. It does not look like the website of a distro that believes that it is the desktop distribution of the future.
Ubuntu suits me very well because of the LTS versions. If they didn't exist, I'd run Debian (as I did before), but because they do, I can have a linux box that requires comparatively little maintenance (and I'm fundamentally lazy).
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Making Linux more accessible is very credible to Ubuntu but the reality is Debian would be as good for most users.
But most users wouldn't have stumbled across Debian.
Apathy rules OK, most people use Windows, says it all really.
Apathy doesn't really rule. Computers are tools and most users just want to - well - use them. For the majority of people, Windows works fine and does everything they need to do. There's no particular reason for them to go out and hunt an alternative. That doesn't make them apathetic or idiots. Just pragmatic users who have things better to do than sort through 101 varieties of Linux.
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I'll stick with Ubuntu Desktop.
It does all I want, better than Microshaft, faster than Microshaft and has never crashed in 5 years.
In contrast Microshaft.................. :sick:
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Never crashed? You want to run Ubuntu 9.04 on a thinkpad. It seems incapable (it is that or its me :-[ which is more likely) of regulating the fan.
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8.04 LTS works like a dream on Mrs MV's mum's Thinkpad...
9.04 seems fussier - it doesn't have support for the graphics card in my Acer, whereas the last 4 or 5 releases have.
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Indeed. I should never have updated the damn thing. 8.04 worked fine, 9.04 was OK until one batch of updates. Really don't have the inclination to reinstall everything at the moment...will await a patch.
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Having used PC's from the time of DOS 3.0 I only got round to looking at Ubuntu earlier this year, and I can agree that it's a load of crap. Just downloading the install file wasn't made easy, and then at the 4th attempt it finally installed itself as a dual boot on a low end PC which is currently running Windows 2000.
The PC only has 512MB but Ubuntu runs much slower than Windows in doing any tasks, Firefox ran at a crawl and I couldn't even manage to get it to install a printer driver.
At least with Windows I know I've got a usable operating system.
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Downloading the install file is a matter of downloading a CD image. No more tricky, so I'm not sure what the issue is. although for an older machine the one to use is the text-based installer, not the GUI one.
But yes, if you install standard Ubuntu, you;'re installing the Gnome desktop and all its little daemons. It'd be like expecting XP to run on a system designed for Win 3.1
Ubuntu though is the underlying OS; if you used, for example Xubuntu, or just installed the xfce desktop on your existing install to use instead of Gnome, you'd get something more amenable to a machine built for Win2000.
I've been using the full Ubuntu as dual boot on machines built for XP since 2004 or so, and in every case it's been faster and more stable than XP.
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Having used PC's from the time of DOS 3.0 I only got round to looking at Ubuntu earlier this year, and I can agree that it's a load of crap. Just downloading the install file wasn't made easy, and then at the 4th attempt it finally installed itself as a dual boot on a low end PC which is currently running Windows 2000.
The PC only has 512MB but Ubuntu runs much slower than Windows in doing any tasks, Firefox ran at a crawl and I couldn't even manage to get it to install a printer driver.
At least with Windows I know I've got a usable operating system.
I wouldn't use Ubuntu on a PC with only 512mb of RAM either. I'd use XUbuntu - same OS, much less bloat. Less bloat even than Windows 2000 - and that was the last gasp for Windows as far as I'm concerned; I still run Windows 2000 when I need to run Windows for work - much to the amusement of others at work who are all Vista/Eye Candy slaves who keep having to put yet another stick of DRAM into their PCs to keep them usable :).
Edit: Bah! Cross post with the V
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I wouldn't use Ubuntu on a PC with only 512mb of RAM either
My 2004 vintage Dell laptop with 512 megs and a 1.2 GHz processor was OK up to 8.04, which is as far as I got before the HD failed I dropped it.
Edit: I'd add that I had full Ubuntu inc Gnome running on my eeePC.
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Downloading the install file is a matter of downloading a CD image. No more tricky, so I'm not sure what the issue is. although for an older machine the one to use is the text-based installer, not the GUI one.
The problem at the time was the download page was not at all clear about which file to download, giving multiple conflicting options. Having just checked again, they seem to to have completely altered the page, making it much simpler. However, too late, as that PC will keep running Windows 2000.
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However, too late, as that PC will keep running Windows 2000.
fair enough, but maybe try it with a GUI that's suitable for the hardware before condemning Ubuntu ;)
I had it running fine with xfce on a c2000 Win NT machine, and using WindowMaker it'll work on a Win 3.1 spec PC. Though DSL was faster.
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I have Ubuntu Netbook Remix running on all my PCs (thinkpad, aspire one, old dell desktop). Great when you've got a wife who isn't really safe around computers and a 3rd old who likes to poke things. Since I installed TwonkyMedia, I can even stream to my 360. If there are better options, great, but I suspect that the extra footfall means more people figuring out how to get things working and documenting it. Getting twonkymedia up and running was a doddle as there were several walkthoughs available.
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However, too late, as that PC will keep running Windows 2000.
fair enough, but maybe try it with a GUI that's suitable for the hardware before condemning Ubuntu ;)
The specs said it should work, especially as it was a 1Gb processor. Perhaps I had been too optimistic in thinking that it was only Microsoft that lies about minimum specifications. ;D
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I wait 20 minutes for my work Windows XP laptop to stop hammering the hard disc after boot. ::-)
I really don't have that amount of time to waste at the start of every working day. >:(
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I have a basic spec notebook and the full Ubuntu plus XP just work. As a non power user, I have used Ubuntu for about five years.
Ubuntu is quick, non intrusive and I've only ever had one problem which was caused by me. You do of course need to learn how to use it and really, it isn't very complicated.
Hence, if anyone has Ubuntu problems, they will not be caused by Ubuntu ;)
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I have Mac :) and RHEL and Debian. In the odd instances I've preferred Knoppix over Ubuntu.
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I wait 20 minutes for my work Windows XP laptop to stop hammering the hard disc after boot. ::-)
That just sounds like all the programs that are run on startup, not necessarily part of XP itself. My XP laptop (much pruned down) starts up nice and quick because I've spent some time sorting it out. My desktop PC is insanely quick, but that's because it's a company wide standard image that has had lots of work on it to keep it fast, installing any other software on it is strongly discouraged (but not prohibited).
Check what you've got in:
HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RUn
and the same path under HKEY_CURRENT_USER.
It's the things like Google Desktop Search or Nokia PC Suite, Adobe Reader Speed Launcher, Quicktime players and other systray apps that waste so much time at start up, especially as they're started up concurrently which causes the contention for the disk (at least the service subsystem has some signalling for the process to say when it has started up and that Windows can move on to the next, without this it's just a free-for-all on the Run/RunOnce items).
(And linux is no better, the Linux rc system is just as arcane and complicated to understand given that it comes from ancient UNIX, its "registry" is just spread about in a hundreds of files in /etc formatted in different ways; some sourced, some parsed, etc).
I was a longtime MCC distrib (1.0.8) and Slackware user. Then Redhat. At work we support RHES and SuSE and, like Valiant, I'm much more likely to download Knoppix than I am Ubuntu.
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I am in the same boat as many users. I just want something that works out of the box, then possibly a bit of fetteling to customise.
For me that has always been Windows. It installs on any hardware (sorting itself out for drivers etc) and keeps itself up to date via the internet.
I did tinkle with linux (Red Hat) but it was a real struggle to install, I couldn't get the appropriate drivers, and in the end I just gave up.
Ubuntu has been great. It has installed and been as easy to use as windows. Maybe it's now time to start lifting the bonnet and get tinkering.
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Ubuntu has been great. It has installed and been as easy to use as windows.
This is the key point, I guess. I think that is the case now, more or less, but it wasn't really so even two or three years ago, and before Ubuntu managed it I don't think it could have been said of any Linux distros.
Linux's achilles heel is the lack of hardware support for some stuff. If it's not available, you're stuffed. Win can be just as much a PITA when an install doesn't go smoothly, and it's continual nagginess and obscurity about just what it's up to makes me dislike it, but at least the drivers exist for most extant hardware.
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Linux's achilles heel is the lack of hardware support for some stuff. If it's not available, you're stuffed.
Which, to be fair, is not the fault of the GNU/Linux operating system. If h/w vendors lack the imagination or foresight to release Linux drivers (or whatever is required to write one) then they are ignoring a growing and significant number of computer users.
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Linux's achilles heel is the lack of hardware support for some stuff. If it's not available, you're stuffed.
Which, to be fair, is not the fault of the GNU/Linux operating system. If h/w vendors lack the imagination or foresight to release Linux drivers (or whatever is required to write one) then they are ignoring a growing and significant number of computer users.
The 80:20 rule in effect (for the hardware manufacturers).
80% of their revenue/sales will be covered by doing only 20% of the total driver development work.
(Note that I'm not saying that Linux represents the remaining 20% of the sales and 80% of the development costs, there are other x86 based Operating Systems, and a generic Linux driver should be relatively straightforward.)
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Been playing with fedora and found that Ubuntu was far easier just to set up and get running.
I dont know what I have done wrong with the fedora install. But I'm currently downloading Mint and see what thats like.
Was going to continue with Fedora but it seems a real pain. I may try re downloading it and creating yet another iso.
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The 80:20 rule in effect (for the hardware manufacturers).
80% of their revenue/sales will be covered by doing only 20% of the total driver development work.
(Note that I'm not saying that Linux represents the remaining 20% of the sales and 80% of the development costs, there are other x86 based Operating Systems, and a generic Linux driver should be relatively straightforward.)
Alternatively, h/w vendors could publish their specs and let the community create a driver.
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Alternatively, h/w vendors could publish their specs and let the community create a driver.
Crowdsourcing (ugh I hate that term) leads to some horrible code, and support and maintenance difficulties in the future. Vendors are scared to release such things as "officially supported" and lots of people shy away from anything that doesn't have an official driver.
The old Linux model was to send Linus some free hardware (and a copy of the specs) and let him do it.
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Ubuntu is much the same with drivers. It found and installed one for my Printer.
As to hardware support perhaps MV will give some examples of types that are not supported.
For software alternatives Ubuntu has a web page or pages describing many software programmes that are available and equivalent to all the Microshaft stuff.
Indeed the more one gets to know Ubuntu the more one appreciates the hard work that has been put into it.
And it's free :thumbsup:
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I wait 20 minutes for my work Windows XP laptop to stop hammering the hard disc after boot. ::-)
That just sounds like all the programs that are run on startup, not necessarily part of XP itself. My XP laptop (much pruned down) starts up nice and quick because I've spent some time sorting it out. My desktop PC is insanely quick, but that's because it's a company wide standard image that has had lots of work on it to keep it fast, installing any other software on it is strongly discouraged (but not prohibited).
Check what you've got in:
HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RUn
and the same path under HKEY_CURRENT_USER.
It's the things like Google Desktop Search or Nokia PC Suite, Adobe Reader Speed Launcher, Quicktime players and other systray apps that waste so much time at start up, especially as they're started up concurrently which causes the contention for the disk (at least the service subsystem has some signalling for the process to say when it has started up and that Windows can move on to the next, without this it's just a free-for-all on the Run/RunOnce items).
There's very little of that stuff on the system. It's fairly minimal, it's a glorified terminal and mail reader/web browser. All my Real Work is done on the Linux systems.
The main culprit seems to be starting Outlook - which is particularly bad if done at startup (which I really need to do so I can check my email to see if anything urgent needs attending to).
We went through a whole process of optimisation a few weeks ago which improved matters a little.
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As to hardware support perhaps MV will give some examples of types that are not supported.
My graphics card on this machine (in 9.04).
The Hauppage TV tuners in our media PC
These are the two issues I have right now.
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Agere ET1310 Gigabit network cards
Any of the management utilities for Adaptec RAID controllers
1900x1600 on my old nVidia graphics card, that did it just fine in Windows...
....etc...
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For the majority of people, Windows works fine and does everything they need to do.
This isn't my experience the damn thing is always breaking
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For the majority of people, Windows works fine and does everything they need to do.
This isn't my experience the damn thing is always breaking
Well, my anecdotal comparison of general crashy-ness is OSX < Linux < Windows (and yes, they all crash). So, nope, Windows XP doesn't come out well - but the crashes these days aren't the calamitous BSoDs of yore and usually recover themselves with a minor blip of sweariness. In other words, minor inconveniences. For most people, the convenience and familiarity of the Windows environment is worth the occasional burp.
My main gripe with Windows is the general bloaty, shouty slowness. Even with optimization, it takes longer than me to wake up in a morning. Even waking an XP machine from standby involves a minute or two of hard disk threshing. I have no idea what it is doing - I open the lid of my sleeping MacBook and it's there, including Wireless and VPN, effectively instantaneousy.
Ultimately though, any OS will let users do what they want unless they have specialized requirements. It comes down the convenience and familiarity (and occasionally cost). Ubuntu had come a long way to making Linux a bit friendlier (I know, it's for girls, proper men have beards, limited social skills and use Gentoo). I still think it's a got a way to go and some baggage to drop before it really presents an alternative to Johnny Average.
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Well I'm johnny average+. I always need a reason for doing something
After having an attempt at my credit card last week - partly my fault browsing with Windoze on a hotel network
(That's the only way I can think of how I got the click bot which read my card a few days later on a secure network)
I can now think of a V. good reason to use a dual boot Linux distro,
Windose for all the apps I can't run under Linux, & the Linux for doing 'unsafe things'
Before anyone says it, I could, and should have locked down Windows more & now know about bot's and how to use Spybot search & destroy, but as I said I'm just johnny average+ plus a bit more now
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As I understand it you cannot lock down Microshaft? I have had one disasterous crash and my MD lost all his confidential Company files :o Much swearing as you can imagine. And before some one says it, I always backed up to a thumb drive which was attached to the Computer. Unfortunately it had a safety feature which made the data inaccessible if the Computer crashed.
So it was time to move on to a Mac or Linux. The latter doesn't normally crash. And as I mentioned earlier Ubuntu has a page that lists all software that is equivalent to the Microshaft stuff. Quicken was the only Programme that stumped me and eventually I changed to Linux software which does the job just as well.
Of course all OS's will crash if the disk space and memory are insufficient ::-)
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Unfortunately it had a safety feature which made the data inaccessible if the Computer crashed.
I use thumb drives for transferring backups from one computer to another, or temporary storage for files that I'm working on in more than one place (and therefore I have two other older copies).
I'd never use a thumb drive as a backup device itself (for important files). If it's plugged in whilst the computer crashes then you could wave good bye to it.
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That's hilarious. I spent years playing with Gentoo. Custom built from the ground up to suit my hardware perfectly. Hmm... crashed more often than Ubuntu.
Gentoo is for geeks, compiling from source takes hours with no real advantage.
I agreee that Gentoo is for geeks --- I use it myself :-\, but I'd say there was at least one advantage of the compile from source approach that it allows ... I am able to specify fairly bleeding edge versions of certain packages and upgrade nicely, without getting into the kind of dependency hell I used to battle when using .rpm based distros. Uuntu/Debian is probably the only major distro branch I've never tried though, so that may be better for all I know...
In fact the above is not so much about the "compile from source" approach as it is about the portage system, which I do like a lot. It's nice to have a wide range of choices of versions of packages, and some quite good handling of dependencies.
It's not perfect though -- I occasionally have to resort to googling and head-scratching when a particularly baffling "Block" appears in the portage output, but on the whole it's nice and easy to keep up to date.
That said, I'm not sure if I'll use it on my next system or not. I might give Suse another try, since I have a SLED DVD lying around at the moment.
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Gentoo's problem is that people often try and compile everything with utterly insane optimisation and performance options (often at the suggestion of Gentoo's documentation or default options) which are prodding some of the weakest parts of gcc's code. The resulting assembly and binaries are shaky to say the least, falling foul of pipelines, concurrency and cache problems.
The optimisation options are ok for the odd bit of code but when everything on your machine (including the basic building blocks such as cat, vi, df, dd, ...) are built with them you're bound to run into some interesting problems.
It's called "Gentoo ricing".
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As I understand it you cannot lock down Microshaft? I have had one disasterous crash and my MD lost all his confidential Company files :o Much swearing as you can imagine. And before some one says it, I always backed up to a thumb drive which was attached to the Computer. Unfortunately it had a safety feature which made the data inaccessible if the Computer crashed.
So it was time to move on to a Mac or Linux. The latter doesn't normally crash. And as I mentioned earlier Ubuntu has a page that lists all software that is equivalent to the Microshaft stuff. Quicken was the only Programme that stumped me and eventually I changed to Linux software which does the job just as well.
Of course all OS's will crash if the disk space and memory are insufficient ::-)
All operating systems will crash (or at least something will crash them), regardless. It's how elegantly and unobtrusively they manage the process that matters. Linux variants certainly do crash. OSX crashes less often because it has a benefit of a locked down and known hardware configuration. Windows has become a lot better - most crashes now are application specific and don't require a reboot.
I am not sure how a disastrous crash can lose all documents, unless it's a disk failure, and those happen on any system. The only thing that really influences a hard disk failure is your diligence in backing up. Hard disks know if you've been slacking and will punish you hard.
As for security - I've been using Windows since 3.1 and have yet to get single virus or other malware. I feel a bit disappointed. Of course, running Windows without a firewall and antivirus is a bit risque. If you spend your days downloading cracked versions of PhotoShop CS from Russian warez sites and evenings browsing sites that promise Hot Teen Anal Action, then your mileage may vary, and you may end up with some interesting hard disk fauna.
And possibly an angry wife / girlfriend if you leave that browser history undisinfected.
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I am not sure how a disastrous crash can lose all documents, unless it's a disk failure, and those happen on any system.
If you just yank the thumb drive out while the OS is writing to it then it could be left in a broken state, especially if the OS was rewriting the main directory tables at the time (as you'd just copied another file to it).
A machine crashing at the wrong moment could have very similar consequences.
This itself isn't Windows specific, it can happen to any OS, but it seems Windows has a habit of delaying writing to flash drives longer, and/or performing the updates in a different way, than other OSes increasing the window of opportunity.
This is why it's important to click on the "Safely Remove Hardware" systray icon (or eject/remove in the right click menu of the disk image) to unmount the thumb drive, and wait for it to say it is safe to remove it.
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This is why it's important to click on the "Safely Remove Hardware" systray icon (or eject/remove in the right click menu of the disk image) to unmount the thumb drive, and wait for it to say it is safe to remove it.
True enough, and my Mac shouts at me if remove a drive without ejecting it first. In a strange robot lady voice, which takes some explaining if I am on the phone at the time. Should possibly get around to turning that off. Almost no one properly unmounts drives from Windows though (it's not exactly made clear that you should). Yank n pray. Victoria would ensure some discipline amongst that fraternity.
I thought that most file systems these days - even NTFS - prevented those sorts of inadvertent shutdown-induced disasters, whereas thumb drives and the like are still typically FAT32 and lacking anything fancy.
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...
As for security - I've been using Windows since 3.1 and have yet to get single virus or other malware. I feel a bit disappointed....
Same here.
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I've been using Windows since 3.1 and have yet to get single virus or other malware. I feel a bit disappointed.
It's ok they are there, feeding your details to the russian mafia and using your PC as a spam relay.
Of course, running Windows without a firewall and antivirus is a bit risque.
It's ok if your PC isn't connected to any networks
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The one time something really evil got onto my computer was on Linux. I'd become a bit slack on the security updates and it got rooted and was sending out bucketloads of spam.
It was about that time I decided that running my own mail server was actually more hassle than it was worth and delegated the job to Google.
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Me, personally, only ever been hacked on Windows. MSBlast; the firewall SW I was using had left that port open, and time from boot to reinfection (and subsequent crash) was about 30s. Really hard work getting the updates downloaded. ::-)
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I have had one or two viruses. Not because I was looking at naughty Sites as Ian may think.
I received an e-mail from my deceased friend's wife with an attachment which was just very suspicious. I emailed her separately to check if she really had sent it. She replied "Sorry my address book has been invaded and my friend is sorting it out. Please delete it or else"
I also received a floppy from our Vietnamese Office which also contained a virus and an email from our Kong Kong Office with attachment and another virus.
Fortunately, I had suitable defences but one can never be 100% sure with Microshaft ::-)
This what I like about Ubuntu who state categorically that a virus programme is not needed. I presume they speak the truth?
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This what I like about Ubuntu who state categorically that a virus programme is not needed. I presume they speak the truth?
No they don't, well not sort of. Linux viruses exist, they are just less common than on Windows. But that doesn't mean that I'd "state categorically" that you don't need one.
Linux malware - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_malware)
Anti-virus applications on Linux are mainly aimed at fileservers where the AV software can be used to detect and clean files that have been stored on the machine from Windows boxes.
But I don't think it'll be more than 2 years before AV software is recommended for Linux desktops.
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You are probably correct for the future but for the moment I feel very comfortable without Microshaft as it has far too many holes these days ::-)
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Resurrecting an old thread: I've just installed Ubuntu Natty Narwhal (11.04) 64-bit as a dual-boot on my Dell Studio XPS 1340 laptop. It hasn't been a total success; I've got NVidia graphics drivers to allow the use of Unity, but no Flash, Java, or other codecs to allow video playback. I tried to get Google Earth 6 installed, but failed miserably - even after extensive searches to secure a bit of help.
Overall - as I think MV said earlier, it needs to just work. It doesn't, at least in this iteration. I happened to have a day to waste trying to get it up and running. The relief on returning to Win7 Pro was quite surprising, given my high hopes at the beginning of the procedure!
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Resurrecting an old thread: I've just installed Ubuntu Natty Narwhal (11.04) 64-bit as a dual-boot on my Dell Studio XPS 1340 laptop. It hasn't been a total success; I've got NVidia graphics drivers to allow the use of Unity[...]
Unity is crap. Don't bother.
Stick with Gnome + Gnome-Do for the win!
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I've got an oldish laptop that was struggling with Windows, I put Ubuntu on it after the final crash, and didn't look back - almost everything 'just works' (everything important works, just the weird stuff that doesn't eg Logitech Harmony programming; Efergy energy monitor ::-) )
I've updated it to Natty Narwhal (why the bl**dy stoopid named?) and I'm just a little teensy bit concerned - one machine death moment - possibly due to it overheating? My hardware doesn't support Unity (didn't expect it to - does it look like I'm bovvered?). The Screen brightness control behaves 'oddly'. And, I'm getting random blocking out of parts of the 'bar at the top of the screen thing'.
I wouldn't go back to using Windows full time, but I'm glad there's a Windows machine in the house for the weird stuff.
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"Clones are unstable."
That's hilarious. I spent years playing with Gentoo. Custom built from the ground up to suit my hardware perfectly. Hmm... crashed more often than Ubuntu.
Oh - and Ubuntu crashes waaaay less often than Windows - and that's good enough for me.
I'm not a Code Weanie. I actually want to use my PC for useful stuff. Ubuntu is fine.
Veering waaay off-topic, but I've run Gentoo fro years now, and have had virtually no crashes.
Never tried Ubuntu, but not feeling any strong urges to move away from Gentoo (it seems to be the only distro where I don't get dropped into dependency hell if I want to stay up to date and have some packages installed with newer versions than the distro's official versions and I therefore don't have to reinstall with the newest point version every year or so. the downside being that I occasionally have to leave my box overnight compiling a bumper crop of releases (e.g.. new Xorg or Gnome version) and then spend a day working out why it doesn't work any more. Usual reason is that I didn't read the news item that arrived with the update. :-\). In my Linux years, I've tried almost every distro (the only major exceptions being the various Debian-based distros which I guess Ubuntu may be realted to).
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Resurrecting an old thread: I've just installed Ubuntu Natty Narwhal (11.04) 64-bit as a dual-boot on my Dell Studio XPS 1340 laptop. It hasn't been a total success; I've got NVidia graphics drivers to allow the use of Unity[...]
Unity is crap. Don't bother.
Stick with Gnome + Gnome-Do for the win!
I agree - they have slightly lost the plot offering a single version Unity front end for 11.04. It's done with tablets and touch-screens in mind, no doubt, but I think they've forgotten who their user base are. We have the capacity to make informed choices.
Ubuntu 10.04 is great and will be supported for a while, so no problems there. Debain 6 has now had so much of the Ubuntu user-friendly dust sprinked over it that it's a viable alternative after that.
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11.04 runs well on my Dell laptop. I never got on with Unity (tried out the beta for a while) and now I start up in Ubuntu Classic and love it.
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Resurrecting an old thread: I've just installed Ubuntu Natty Narwhal (11.04) 64-bit as a dual-boot on my Dell Studio XPS 1340 laptop. It hasn't been a total success; I've got NVidia graphics drivers to allow the use of Unity, but no Flash, Java, or other codecs to allow video playback. I tried to get Google Earth 6 installed, but failed miserably - even after extensive searches to secure a bit of help.
That's a shame. The last time I tangled with Ubuntu (for a colleague's machine) everything did Just Work, from the wifi to the graphics. I'm a Fedora user personally, and couldn't be happier with it.
On the offchance that you didn't already do all this:
To install Flash, download the 64-bit Linux link from here (http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10_square.html), extract it, and move the libflashplayer.so file to ~/.mozilla/plugins
To install Java, download the JRE from here (http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/index.html) and run the shell script in there (you'll need to run it as root IIRC).
Skip installing specific codecs for Movieplayer and get VLC instead (available via apt-get).
Oh also, if this is your first time using the NVidia drivers on Linux, be aware that every kernel update will mean you need to reinstall them. Leave the installer file on your system.
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11.04 runs well on my Dell laptop. I never got on with Unity (tried out the beta for a while) and now I start up in Ubuntu Classic and love it.
Aha! I'll try that..
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I removed Unity completely and log in to Classic because I use Cairo Dock. The 11.04 upgrade borked CD and I've still not got it working as I had it under 10 - something to do with compositing or some such.
Tbh, this is the first Ubuntu release were I've thought maybe it's time to look at another 'nix flavour.
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Tbh, this is the first Ubuntu release were I've thought maybe it's time to look at another 'nix flavour.
I came to that conclusion too and I'm really a Linux newbie..
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I had an underlying motive for trying it out - I'm thinking of loading Ubuntu onto an old XP-vintage laptop for my daughter to use at her mother's house, and I wanted a good look at how it works and what functionality is available for the things she's interested in - art, photography and chatting with her mates (as with any 14-year old)! I also wanted to see whether there were any parental controls or similar available, though that's not a deal-breaker.
My installation of the 64-bit version may have been part of the problem; it does seem that it's a little too under-developed and insufficiently well supported by drivers etc to be considered a finished product. No matter; I now have 32-bit 10.10 installed on another spare lappie that I can have a play with. I had kind of hoped that the dual-boot setup on the laptop that accompanies me everywhere would be the way ahead, but maybe not - I've just had to let Win7 do a boot repair to undo some of the mods that Ubuntu has instigated. I'm not prepared to compromise my access to Win7 for this experiment, so it'll have to be done in spare time at home (which is in short supply!).
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You might find that running Win7 in a virtual machine under VMWare player is easier than dual-booting. It's so easy even I can do it.
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You won't have to mess with the boot loader again now you've done that. It's a dual-boot problem rather than a linux one.
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Resurrecting an old thread: I've just installed Ubuntu Natty Narwhal (11.04) 64-bit as a dual-boot on my Dell Studio XPS 1340 laptop. It hasn't been a total success; I've got NVidia graphics drivers to allow the use of Unity, but no Flash, Java, or other codecs to allow video playback. I tried to get Google Earth 6 installed, but failed miserably - even after extensive searches to secure a bit of help.
That's a shame. The last time I tangled with Ubuntu (for a colleague's machine) everything did Just Work, from the wifi to the graphics. I'm a Fedora user personally, and couldn't be happier with it.
On the offchance that you didn't already do all this:
To install Flash, download the 64-bit Linux link from here (http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10_square.html), extract it, and move the libflashplayer.so file to ~/.mozilla/plugins
To install Java, download the JRE from here (http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/index.html) and run the shell script in there (you'll need to run it as root IIRC).
Skip installing specific codecs for Movieplayer and get VLC instead (available via apt-get).
Oh also, if this is your first time using the NVidia drivers on Linux, be aware that every kernel update will mean you need to reinstall them. Leave the installer file on your system.
Thanks for the tips. But this isn't what I mean by 'it just works'! I remember doing all this crap in Dos and early Windows installations. Yes, I've got lazy - but I don't have time to waste on this. If I can find version that works, great, I'll give it a go. If not, I'll spend a few quid and get another Win7 lappie for her - and find a way of charging her mother!
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You won't have to mess with the boot loader again now you've done that. It's a dual-boot problem rather than a linux one.
I've had to do it twice now.
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the downside being that I occasionally have to leave my box overnight compiling a bumper crop of releases (e.g.. new Xorg or Gnome version) and then spend a day working out why it doesn't work any more.
Whatever its virtues, Gentoo still doesn't handle the consequences of upgrades as well as it might. There's a tendency (less than before, certainly) to break packages on upgrade, requiring post-upgrade tools or manual fixes. That and the lack of an equivalent of Debian Stable means I'd not consider it for production use without a skilled team to create and maintain equivalent resources - and I'd need to be shown a compelling advantage before I'd see the point in expending the time on that.
In my Linux years, I've tried almost every distro (the only major exceptions being the various Debian-based distros which I guess Ubuntu may be realted to).
That's a significant omission, since it's one of the oldest lineages of Linux distributions and has the most mature package management system going - not that it's perfect and the Ubuntu development community has traded away some of those advantages and not alway shown the best judgement. You should investigate a Debian-based derivative for a point of comparison, at least. There's always something to learn from a different approach, even if only to tell you more about your favoured tools. But in that case, you'd be better off investigating Debian.
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On the offchance that you didn't already do all this:
To install Flash, download the 64-bit Linux link from here (http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10_square.html), extract it, and move the libflashplayer.so file to ~/.mozilla/plugins
To install Java, download the JRE from here (http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/index.html) and run the shell script in there (you'll need to run it as root IIRC).
Skip installing specific codecs for Movieplayer and get VLC instead (available via apt-get).
Or simply install ubuntu-restricted-extras and sun-java6-bin
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Nonfree software in an official repo? How ghastly!
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Nonfree software in an official repo? How ghastly!
<--- Not a purist ;-)
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11.04 has an option during install that if you choose it downloads and installs the most common non free stuff for you (flash, mp3 etc). A good idea for an OS amied at end users and the desktop.
I'm not convinced by the new UI though. I have been using it for a few days but am going to switch back to classic I think.
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I've just "got" the Unity GUI. It's little squares for apps just like your iPhone innit? I can suddenly see who they are trying to attract.
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I've just "got" the Unity GUI. It's little squares for apps just like your iPhone innit? I can suddenly see who they are trying to attract.
People with more money than sense?
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You might find that running Win7 in a virtual machine under VMWare player is easier than dual-booting. It's so easy even I can do it.
No way. Win7 will remain my primary OS. Ubuntu is a niche interest - it's a niche product. And, now I've attempted and failed to upgrade 10.10 to 11.04 32-bit on my spare lappie (and have the NVidia blank window bug, making it completely unusable and currently unrecoverable), I have to declare Ubuntu a total waste of my time. An OS either makes your computer usable or it doesn't. It doesn't have to be a pleasure to use, but it helps. Ubuntu doesn't work by those criteria; Win7 (or MacOS) does.
I guess if you like 1963 MGBs, and can live with the unreliability and the maintenance, Ubuntu might be quite fun. If you need a vehicle that works evry time without fail, it's a non-starter. Give me a Mondeo any time!
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Shame. I just love Linux.
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Why? Surely not for its utility? It can only be because it's not Windows or Mac OS!
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Why? Surely not for its utility? It can only be because it's not Windows or Mac OS!
- Reliable
- Easy to use
- Predictable
- Flexible
- Fantastic support
- Open
- Fun!
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Why? Surely not for its utility? It can only be because it's not Windows or Mac OS!
Different concepts of utility, perhaps. If you care about the GUI, for instance, you can mix and match different components and fine tune your interface to your own very particular preference in a way that those two OSen will never allow. You could have radically different UIs for each day of the week, if you liked. And none of that would be shackled to the power features of the underlying OS. That means that you can keep one part (say, your perfect UI) as you like it, without change, for years while taking full advantage of improvements to the kernel and other core components. Windows and OS X, in contrast, constantly tweak the UI to remind you that you're paying for it (Apple are getting worse for this, though still not as bad as Microsoft); need that new core feature? Well, have Redmond's latest crappy concepts of UI forced down your throat at the same time - oh, and you may have to shell out for new hardware just to have it run better than a crawl. OTOH, more work required to take advantage of that flexibility.
As with bikes, so with operating systems. No one version is going to suit everybody. It's not really possible to create a system that is flexible and endlessly extensible and polished and works out of the box on a range of hardware etc. Windows, OS X, different Linux distributions, they position themselves on different points of the graph.
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Ah- sorry. I have to disagree on all counts except Open. Obviously, it's not (in my experience) reliable. It's therefore not easy to use. If it were predictable, I may be able to cure it of its unreliability. Equally, if the support was available at a non-nerd level, I might stand a chance. Flexibility depends on the cheapness of the laptop it's housed in. Fun? Only in the same way that fixing the central heating in the winter with all the family moaning at you for warmth is 'fun'!
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Why? Surely not for its utility? It can only be because it's not Windows or Mac OS!
Different concepts of utility, perhaps. If you care about the GUI, for instance, you can mix and match different components and fine tune your interface to your own very particular preference in a way that those two OSen will never allow. You could have radically different UIs for each day of the week, if you liked. And none of that would be shackled to the power features of the underlying OS. That means that you can keep one part (say, your perfect UI) as you like it, without change, for years while taking full advantage of improvements to the kernel and other core components.
You can't if it doesn't fucking work in the first place. I'm all for customising the user experience, but first of all there has to be a user experience!
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As with bikes, so with operating systems. No one version is going to suit everybody. It's not really possible to create a system that is flexible and endlessly extensible and polished and works out of the box on a range of hardware etc. Windows, OS X, different Linux distributions, they position themselves on different points of the graph.
No indeed, and I absolutely accept this. I also accept the commercial compromises Win and Mac demand. I have some old hardware and I'd like it to last a bit longer with OS support. But I do need entry-level usability. After that I can get into the whole cult thing that Linux enthusiasts espouse - and I'm not immune to. But it must WORK!
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Ubuntu has always worked for me and I'm not a power user.
By contrast Microsoft is a very clever marketing ploy, always has been and very expensive. Why pay good money when you can get a better product for free? :thumbsup:
Mind you I don't bother to upgrade all the time. 10.04 does all I need to do and it just works complete with automatic Internet connection ;)
Yesterday, I spent more than two hours with my wife's new Windows 7 notebook and failed to achieve an Internet connection. Windows helpfully couldn't find the problem and suggested you ask a friend. So much for Windows help files!
And before you ask she needs Windows for her work otherwise she would be running Ubuntu like me,,
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TimC, I think you have justifiable reasons for being annoyed; having an OS upgrade trash one's pc is a royal pain, and just shouldn't happen. But it does happen - I've had several experiences of Windows trashing a PC upon upgrade, not to mention - spontaneously destroying itself and becoming unbootable just in normal use.
I think you could tar Windows with exactly the same brush.
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No indeed, and I absolutely accept this. I also accept the commercial compromises Win and Mac demand. I have some old hardware and I'd like it to last a bit longer with OS support. But I do need entry-level usability. After that I can get into the whole cult thing that Linux enthusiasts espouse - and I'm not immune to. But it must WORK!
I thought you had an Ubuntu system that DID WORK . It is best to let the brave upgrade first and sort out the bugs before doing yourself.
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Tim
The Nvidea bug is annoying but easy to fix. After you see the boot logo press shift and it will allow you to get at the boot options for Grub the boot loader.
Select the default kernel (the top one usually) but don’t press enter press E for edit.
Scroll down using the arrow keys to where it says "quite splash" and leave one space after splash then insert "nomodeset"
Now press control-X to boot.
You should get a booted system with perhaps crappy resolution. Don't worry. Once booted you need to install the non free Nvidea drivers and that will sort the whole thing out permanently.
If you login using the "classic" menu rather then Unity you can do this by going to:
System -> Administration -> Additional Drivers.
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Ubuntu has rejuvenated our desktop which we really only use for email, web browsing, uploading and storing digital camera photos.
Given the os is free and includes useful everyday applications then I see no reason to replace our four year old machine at the moment.
The only thing I miss (and appreciate this maybe totally fixable but I can't do it) is the ability to use MSN with video from my (work) XP machine to our home Ubuntu desktop when I'm travelling.
My attempt to upgrade from 10.04 to 11.04 also failed with a “blank window” and it took time to reloaded 10.10 and restore over the weekend but no real headache.
I would say, for many “home” users Ubuntu offers a very cost effective alternative to MS.
Therefore, whilst not perfect it ain’t crap!
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The last time I upgraded Ubuntu (I've held on the latest update for the time being) it helpfully dumped me at a command prompt. Usual graphics driver issues, eventually fixed, but this is 2011 and no average user should ever be dumped at a command prompt. That's a big overflowing bucket of FAIL.
Sorry, but once you start talking about GRUB, editing config options, etc. it's Game Over. Users shouldn't have to do that.
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Your right they shouldn’t but it happens sometimes. Every had Windows go bang and you have to interrupt its boot loader and start in safe mode blah blah blah.
Not so different.
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Windows shouldn't just give you a Blue Screen of Death when you plug in a usb stick and so on and so on. Same goes with Ubutnu it shouldn't give you the command prompt with no information at all.
Though both OS's are getting better at that. When I started with ubuntu 6.04 and updated all the way up to 9.10, it fell over at every upgrade and I have spend many hours hacking my way in the command prompt to get it to play ball. Though never as many hours I have spend on a windows machine trying to get it to print, connect to the internet etc.
But since 10.04 it have really played ball, network share, wifi and dual monitors right out of the box. The only time the puter falls over is when I poke at things I do not know anything about.
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The Nvidea bug is a bit crap though. It's been there for several releases now and they really should have something in the install routine that checks and then does the nomodep thing automatically.
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No indeed, and I absolutely accept this. I also accept the commercial compromises Win and Mac demand. I have some old hardware and I'd like it to last a bit longer with OS support. But I do need entry-level usability. After that I can get into the whole cult thing that Linux enthusiasts espouse - and I'm not immune to. But it must WORK!
I thought you had an Ubuntu system that DID WORK . It is best to let the brave upgrade first and sort out the bugs before doing yourself.
I did. It started up yesterday afternoon, and proudly told me there was an update available. I clicked on 'update' - end of usable computer! Now I can get to the (somewhat geeky) Unity desktop, from where it will open a few blank windows before the screensaver whites out the screen and the OS completely stops responding. Now, ok, I didn't pay for the OS (though I did pay £1200 for the lappie 6 years ago), so I guess nothing's lost. But I was 'sold' Ubuntu as a genuine alternative to Windows by the PC press. I think their hopes exceed reality by some considerable way.
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Tim have you installed the Nvidea drivers ?
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Your right they shouldn’t but it happens sometimes. Every had Windows go bang and you have to interrupt its boot loader and start in safe mode blah blah blah.
Not so different.
To be fair though, I've not really seen problems with Win7 or MacOS, so they seem to get the message that computers need to be consumer-proofed. I run Linux on a few machines, but it's that lack of end-user polish that abrades. Be it an upgrade that dumps you at a command prompt, or knowing that the same command line is lurking in the bushes the moment you try to do something off the beaten path. Want to map your window share and you are left typing sudo mount -t smbfs blah blah blah. Have a problem? Just edit the following files...
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I did. It started up yesterday afternoon, and proudly told me there was an update available. I clicked on 'update' - end of usable computer!
That is a bad Windows habit, it said there was an update available, you chose to click it. Did you bother to read the release notes. Hardware is made to be MS compatible not Linux compatible. That Linux incorrectly identifies your ( ancient) monitor and video card is not such a big surprise. The problem with NVidia is that they stopped supporting their NV driver last year but the solution is simple and easily found on the various forums, it just takes a tiny effort.
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Ian, if you're that desperate to get away from the command line to mount disk shares etc. you should move to SuSE.
the SuSE YAST tool usually makes a good attempt at doing all that pesky editing of files for you
start Yast2 from the contol panel
click on Windows domain membership
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Must say all these quoted Ubuntu problems are totally foreign to me. Non-power user for many years, security updates installed whenever available with no issues and very rarely a command line needed.
I have used 10.10 but prefer 10.04 which I will use until it is no longer supported.
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I did. It started up yesterday afternoon, and proudly told me there was an update available. I clicked on 'update' - end of usable computer!
That is a bad Windows habit, it said there was an update available, you chose to click it.
I would call it a bad Ubuntu habit. (Though I agree with you about the 'chose to click' bit.)
At least in Windows it's easy to turn off both automatic updates and update checking.
I have Ubuntu NBR on a netbook and every time I switch the darn thing on the Update Manager starts up unbidden, and I can't see any option (via the GUI) to stop it doing this. I have to shut it down manually, even then it tries again after a short while. Really quite annoying.
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Ian, if you're that desperate to get away from the command line to mount disk shares etc. you should move to SuSE.
the SuSE YAST tool usually makes a good attempt at doing all that pesky editing of files for you
start Yast2 from the contol panel
click on Windows domain membership
Well, I grew up with command shells, Unix, X-Windows and SPARCstations, so I'm only bothered with the principle of having to do that kind of thing. File sharing is now effectively seamless between Mac and Windows machines, and it's another one of those things that ought to be a no-brainer for any OS. As would ensuring that an upgrade is not stymied by a known, common video driver issue. Users don't care whose fault it is. No one reads release notes, nor should they have to. Things should just work users how anticipate, otherwise it's a FAIL.
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At least in Windows it's easy to turn off both automatic updates and update checking.
I have Ubuntu NBR on a netbook and every time I switch the darn thing on the Update Manager starts up unbidden, and I can't see any option (via the GUI) to stop it doing this. I have to shut it down manually, even then it tries again after a short while. Really quite annoying.
You can turn it off. I have UNR 10.4 on our netbook and I too got annoyed by the reminders. I run Mint on my desktop machine so I can't check the method just now.
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. As would ensuring that an upgrade is not stymied by a known, common video driver issue. Users don't care whose fault it is. No one reads release notes, nor should they have to. Things should just work users how anticipate, otherwise it's a FAIL.
I agree this is what users expect but it is just not going to happen for everyone. I think Ubuntu have scored an own goal with the video driver issue as vesa would have worked for NVidia cards ( I don't think ATI or Intel are affected) but I suspect the new bling Unity desktop may not work as planned without the nouveau driver as they can't ship the proprietary NVida driver as standard. Ubuntu was the distro for MS users migrating from Windows and it was made easy with GUIs for most things but now it wants to be cutting edge and using a video driver and desktop both still in heavy development this shows the results. Things have moved on since Ubuntu first appeared and there are plenty of alternatives. It is some time since I used Windows but don't they still need the respective video drivers installing.
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So after all that praise I gave Ubuntu yesterday, I came home to an error.
"gconf-sanity-check-2 exited with status 256"
Just searching for a fix now.
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Tim have you installed the Nvidea drivers ?
Yes, I have. In fact, with the 'current' driver it almost worked, but the forums recommended the '173' driver so I installed that, which is when the blank window issue occurred. I've managed now to wipe the HDD and reinstall 10.10, which does seem to work fine.
Quote from: TimC on Today at 12:42:09
I did. It started up yesterday afternoon, and proudly told me there was an update available. I clicked on 'update' - end of usable computer!
That is a bad Windows habit, it said there was an update available, you chose to click it. Did you bother to read the release notes. Hardware is made to be MS compatible not Linux compatible. That Linux incorrectly identifies your ( ancient) monitor and video card is not such a big surprise. The problem with NVidia is that they stopped supporting their NV driver last year but the solution is simple and easily found on the various forums, it just takes a tiny effort.
I think this is a bit OTT. If a software developer is confident enough to enable an auto-update procedure, it should work. If there are doubts, they should be made plain before anyone risks trashing their computer. Despite the age of that laptop, the NVidia card is still supported under Windows and in fact the laptop had no real difficulty running Win7, though without the graphics effects.
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I think this is a bit OTT. If a software developer is confident enough to enable an auto-update procedure, it should work. If there are doubts, they should be made plain before anyone risks trashing their computer.
The doubts are made plain https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyNarwhal/ReleaseNotes see under graphics .
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I think this is a bit OTT. If a software developer is confident enough to enable an auto-update procedure, it should work. If there are doubts, they should be made plain before anyone risks trashing their computer.
The doubts are made plain https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyNarwhal/ReleaseNotes see under graphics .
So, just a few issues with 11.04. I'll be waiting another week or two before I upgrade, and make sure I have plenty of time set aside to do some reading / fire fighting.
I do like Ubuntu, but having had a previous upgrade go horribly wrong, I've got into the habit of waiting a bit before moving on to the latest version.
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I think this is a bit OTT. If a software developer is confident enough to enable an auto-update procedure, it should work. If there are doubts, they should be made plain before anyone risks trashing their computer.
The doubts are made plain https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyNarwhal/ReleaseNotes see under graphics .
I have to explain / beat this into our developers and product managers all the time - people don't read the release notes. You can't expect people to read through several pages of cryptic text. They don't. No point arguing that they should, because they won't, in the same way that tigers can never be persuaded to order the vegetarian option in a restaurant. It's the natural order of things.
If stuff just happens, it should just work. No point in the plaintive cry 'but it says in the release notes..."
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I've got to say - I've just looked at those release notes. I don't use Ubuntu - mostley SuSE for me.
But just look - for the same OS you can get (for free) variants ready to run on:
desktop
server
netbook
embedded development boards
Myth-TV settops
clouds
Isn't that quite amazing really?
I agree that Microsoft will have Windows OS to run on desktops/servers/Xboxes - but these are marketed as different products.
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people don't read the release notes. You can't expect people to read through several pages of cryptic text. They don't. No point arguing that they should, because they won't, in the same way that tigers can never be persuaded to order the vegetarian option in a restaurant.
I dunno - to me, release notes are genuinely useful information and often interesting - the problem would be that in most typical software update procedures they aren't very accessible. There's no 'read this before you click OK' process.
Whenever I'm presented with a software upgrade, my first reaction is "why should I bother?" - so then, if I'm still remotely interested, I might check the release notes and find that the only alteration is that the Help files have been translated into Azerbijani - so then, of course, since I'm keen to polish my language skills, I would go ahead ...
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I think this is a bit OTT. If a software developer is confident enough to enable an auto-update procedure, it should work. If there are doubts, they should be made plain before anyone risks trashing their computer.
The doubts are made plain https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyNarwhal/ReleaseNotes see under graphics .
That may be plain to you. To me, it's complete gobbledegook - and I'm fairly tech friendly, though no computer or software engineer. I'm not conversant with Linux banter, and I don't want to have to be. The PC press sold me the line that Ubuntu is a valid alternative to Windows or MacOS. My experience suggests that that maybe too optimistic a statement. Ubuntu, either with Gnome or Unity, is a fairly attractive but niche alternative that still needs a fair degree of tech knowhow to get it working smoothly on much common hardware. If you're lucky, you may have a hardware config that it's happy to work on withno errors or omissions or need to get under the bonnet. If you're not - and I'm not - you need to learn all sorts of esoteric ways of frigging drivers and software to give yourself half a chance if getting a working system. To that extent, it's more like Windows 3.1 than an alternative to Win7 or OSX. I guess that may always be a problem with open-source, enthusiast-driven software - it's never quite finished as a proper piece of working code. For all its detractors, and history, Win7 is light years ahead of Ubuntu as a user experience. Yes, it's legacy code and bloat mean it needs serious hardware to work quickly, but work it generally does. And when it doesn't, you don't need a degree in obscure computing to sort it out (though you may need the patience of a saint!).
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OSX is easy, it only runs on a small hardware set controlled by Apple. If Ubuntu could constrain itself to that same small hardware set I would think it would have as few issues as OSX.
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The NVIDIA issue has been there since 10.04 - I had to fiddle it on my old Dell, and that died almost a year ago. I mentioned it here at the time.
I dunno; even having to fix that still makes any Ubuntu install/OS upgrade far less painful than Win. I've lost track of the number of years of my life spent trawling the internet for Win drivers.
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I’ve had some real pain getting my Win XP box working again after random MS updates broke it.
FreeBSD wasn’t that good on this. Ubuntu has been far better, but I’ve never done a major version update (and to be fair, I have not done a major version update on Windows since about 10 years ago).
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I never do. I tried it on Debian years ago but prefer to do a clean install instead.
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I'm glad I didn't see this thread before! Logged into my ubuntu (headless) on Sunday and it said upgrade available. It was 5 AM so I just went ahead and did it without thinking. Ignored the warnings about upgrading over SSH. Luckily went through totally smoothly - first time I've upgraded rather than just doing a fresh install.
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I really, really want Ubuntu (or some similar flavour of open source OS) to be a brilliant success, so I can use something other than Mr Gates product. However, the issues for me are those as listed close above, i.e. the need to be an advanced geek before you can understand the warnings hidden in a file, and that most of the software I choose or need to use is not available for Linux.
I am also bemused by the "oh, you'll need to do a complete reinstall for that" comments. I don't have 2 days spare to sit mesmerised by a PC monitor reinstalling software suites.... I sometimes wonder if the posters on here actually USE their computers, or do they just play with them. To me, its a tool to do a job, and sometimes entertain me a little, just like my TV or my camera. I don't want to have to spend months learning how to use it, there's enough of a learning curve with the software applications, the OS should just be a load up and use, experience, surely?
How long would it take me to source and install for Linux: Abel bellringing simulator software, Windows mobile device centre, Tell me more language tuition, Dragon Naturally speaking, Turbocad, Photoshop Elements, Premiere Elements, Nero, memory map, PDf convertor pro, Calibre, Smartview thermal imaging software, Iplan energy management? And thats only the icons on the left of my monitor, not the rest. I know many of those don't even exist for any sort of Linux.
So, how usable is Linux for me? Its not, its a total fail, however much I want to find a replacement for the products of the evil empire. Win7 offered me a service pack yesterday, it just worked. Yes, its huge, its bloated, and it costs money, but it does what I need it to do.
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I must admit I've had very little issues with ubuntu over the past few years that I've used it as my sole OS on my desktop PC. However I did make a point in that if I bought any hardware, e.g. video capture card, video card, memory card reader, printer, that it is linux compatible before buying! A few minutes of research saves hours of frustration later! Buying older (and cheaper) hardware tends to be more compatible.
I'd agree that ubuntu isn't really ready for prime time on retail PCs. When things go wrong in linux (which in my experience is rare), they do tend to go wrong in a spectacular way, needing quite a bit of knowledge to get it fixed!
Luckily the software I mainly use comes in linux flavours. My photography is at a stage where the likes of Lightroom et all would be overkill for my needs, so I use digikam for organising photos, and gimp for editing! (I prefer getting shots right in camera rather than hours photoshopping them).
I do have Win XP on my samsung NC10 netbook. Have been tempted on dual booting that with ubuntu netbook edition as I don't really use the netbook that much.
At the end of the day the computer user should have a look at what software they need to use, then find the appropraite OS to use.
Perhaps someday I'll win the lottery (despite not playing it!) and I'll buy a nice mac + lightroom, aperture, photoshop etc. But for now, my budget is limited so ubuntu + free software ftw!
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At the end of the day the computer user should have a look at what software they need to use, then find the appropraite OS to use.
Nail, head.
You choose the software you need then an OS that supports it.
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I am also bemused by the "oh, you'll need to do a complete reinstall for that" comments. I don't have 2 days spare to sit mesmerised by a PC monitor reinstalling software suites.... I sometimes wonder if the posters on here actually USE their computers, or do they just play with them. To me, its a tool to do a job, and sometimes entertain me a little, just like my TV or my camera. I don't want to have to spend months learning how to use it, there's enough of a learning curve with the software applications, the OS should just be a load up and use, experience, surely?
If anybody made that kind of comment, they're quite wrong. The major Linux distributions are extremely upgradable; the joke about the Debian installer used to be that it was so bad because nobody ever used it more than once. Most problems you may encounter on a Linux system can be solved without even a reboot, let alone a reinstall, in a way that has never been true with Windows. I have several machines which have gone from Debian version 2.1 all the way through to 6.0 without a reinstall (and a major upgrade usually doesn't even require a reboot). Not only that, but those systems are not full of cruft and bloat because I can easily identify which package every installed file belongs to, which libraries or other dependencies are no longer needed, which packages were automatically installed to fulfill other dependencies - and clear them all out*. If I choose to, there are GUI tools to make it even simpler. A windows box which had gone through the equivalent set of upgrades without a reinstall from scratch would almost certainly be unusable by now.
That said, the quality of new Ubuntu releases has been a little patchy, of late.
The last few pages of this thread have been about one person's bad experience with one hardware/software combination. The web is full of examples of people suffering the same kind of problem with Windows and when you find that Windows won't boot past a certain point, there's often sod-all you can do about it because it doesn't have the loose coupling between the core and the GUI. The fact that there's a CLI you can drop back to to fix things - even in the boot loader - isn't a fail, as somebody bizarrely tried to assert. There are perfectly good Linux GUIs that allow you to browse your network and mount remote shares without resorting to the command line (another claim made in ignorance, above), but the things you can do through the GUI are also controllable (and open to inspection) through the CLI, giving you more power if you want it. In Windows, if somebody didn't design a tick box on a dialog box for it, you probably can't do it (you might be able to fix it by hacking around the registry, sometimes, but that hardly counts as shiny GUI friendliness, does it?)
(Oh, and OS X can't really be compared to either Windows or Linux in this context, since it is only intended to be installed on a limited range of officially supported hardware, not the massive range available to the other two).
None of the explicitly user-friendly Linux distributions have quite the finished polish of Windows or OS X but they're very usable for an increasingly large number of people who do not class themselves as geeks at all. I am surprised that Ubuntu doesn't automatically configure a boot option to load with the lowest-common-denominator VGA/VESA video driver. It's not a daunting task to create "Safe Mode" boot options for Linux.
So, how usable is Linux for me? Its not, its a total fail, however much I want to find a replacement for the products of the evil empire. Win7 offered me a service pack yesterday, it just worked. Yes, its huge, its bloated, and it costs money, but it does what I need it to do.
At the end of the day, if the vendor doesn't release the software in a Linux version, they just don't. Sometimes there's an equivalent that does have a Linux version, a surprising amount of Windows software can be run under Linux using Wine, but some stuff just isn't available. That may, depending on your current requirements, make it not the right choice for you, but it's no more a "total fail" than the unavailability of Final Cut Pro for Windows.
*I don't think Windows users always realise how much they have just become accustomed to, in terms of limitations and inflexibility, or that people coming the other way might (and do) say "What? You can't do *what*?!"
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I'd agree
We have a bunch of Ubuntu machines here, one dual-boot with Vista and one machine that runs just XP MCE. The ones where I spend most time faffing about and drumming my fingers whilst it sits there doing nothing are the Win machines. Ubuntu mostly just works these days.
This Dell laptop I'm using now - put in the CD, off it went and that was it. Ubuntu was described a couple of years ago in the Gruaniad as the most granny-friendly OS there is. It's stable, easy to get yourself ouyt of a mess and hard to get into one
Mrs MV's 70 year-old totally non-techie mum has Thinkpad that I put the last LTS version on, and it works faultlessly for her without endless reboots & AV conflicts. Her husband's Win machine, on the other hand, I seem to spend half my life hacking about with...
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Her husband's Win machine, on the other hand, I seem to spend half my life hacking about with...
TBF to MS, IME problems with windows are usually down to either poor installation, additional "utilities" installed by either the user or the hardware vendor or crap h/w drivers for cheap 'n' dodgy devices. I've had loads of win machines at work and the only time I ever got a BSOD was when a "helpful" IT technician gave me a new (beta?) copy of IE ::-).
But, hang on a minute, I'm a Linux user!
I sometimes wonder if the posters on here actually USE their computers, or do they just play with them. To me, its a tool to do a job, and sometimes entertain me a little, just like my TV or my camera. I don't want to have to spend months learning how to use it, there's enough of a learning curve with the software applications, the OS should just be a load up and use, experience, surely?
My office computer (that I am using now) is an essential tool for earning my living as a self-employed person so I am unlikely to choose software that lets me down. That's why I have Linux ;). I accept the point about a learning curve, but as a predominantly Windows (mainly in the past now) and Linux user I struggle with my occasional encounters with Apple PCs. It's down to what you're used to. They're all computers and they all do roughly the same job.
Think of it like the choices between Campagnolo, Shimano, SRAM etc.
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Ubuntu has been getting steadily worse on my Samsung N130 as upgrades have progressed.
Worked fine on 9.04 after a bit of fiddling.
Worked OK ish on 10.04, but the wirelesss wasn't very happy coming back to life after suspend - maybe 50%
Then there was 11.04. Wireless never recovers from suspend. Occasional random logoffs. Occasional shutdowns. And the Unity interface has many annoying problems.
Roll on 12.04
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Checked the price of Windows 7 this week in Bangkok at 112 Quid equivalent, Ubuntu - free.
No contest then :D
Unfortunately, my Wife needed Windows for some of her work with the gubberment so we bought a Notebook with a Windows 7 starter kit, part of which expires very quickly (60 hours I think) including Office which I promptly replaced with a complete but earlier version. Another example of Microsoft's marketing tricks :demon: but it suited what she needed at this time.
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The last few pages of this thread have been about one person's bad experience with one hardware/software combination.
True - but there are plenty more of us out there.
I just gave up moaning about Linux (in general) and Ubuntu (in particular) years ago. Lost cause.
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I just gave up moaning about Linux (in general) and Ubuntu (in particular) years ago. Lost cause.
Linux is certainly not a lost cause, most of the worlds servers run it, the internet runs on it, Android will soon be the biggest mobile OS and most of the worlds supercomputers run it. MS has a monopoly on the OS supplied with a new PC hence most people just use it. In recent years hardware and driver software is becoming more LInux friendly. Intel produce open drivers for their GPUs and since AMD bought ATI they have been releasing specifications to allow open drivers for ATI/AMD video cards, NVidia are the only major graphics card producer dragging their feet although they do produce a LInux driver but it is proprietary so can't be included on the installation media.. Following on from Intel most wifi hardware producers now have open firmware. All current Linux distros should work out of the box on most machines. I did a clean install recently ( not Ubuntu !!) on a new SSD, it was from a live CD and took 3 min 20 seconds to install, another five minutes to add other repros and install Flashplayer and VLC with all the missing codecs and I had a complete system that will do almost anything anyone will need. No nerdy stuff needed.
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I'd agree with the above. Doing a new install on a decent PC isn't generally the problem, which it might have been a few years ago. The problem arises when you want to do something different. For instance I was looking at trying to get a Vodafone 3G dongle working on a notebook.
If it was Windows, there's be an exe file to run which would install everything, and within a minute, it would be working. If it's Ubuntu, I've got to follow this little lot of instructions:-
Download the Ubuntu.tgz compressed archive to a temporary directory on your machine with the download button.
Assuming that we are inside your temporary directory uncompress the archive.
$> tar xvfz Ubuntu.tgz
This will produce the following directory and files on your machine.
$> ls -l
$> Ubuntu/
$> Ubuntu/ozerocdoff_0.4-2_i386.deb
$> Ubuntu/usb-modeswitch_0.9.7_i386.deb
$ >Ubuntu/vodafone-mobile-connect_2.20.01-1_all.deb
$> Ubuntu/INSTALL_UBUNTU.TXT
Installing Packages
We are going to install the packages in reverse order. In other words if a package depends on another package we install the dependancy first.
Install the usb_modeswitch package.
$> sudo dpkg -i usb-modeswitch_0.9.7_i386.deb
Install ozerocdoff package.
$> sudo dpkg -i ozerocdoff_0.4-2_i386.deb
Install Vodafone Mobile Connect and it's dependancies
$> sudo aptitude install wvdial hal usb-modeswitch ozerocdoff python-twisted python-serial python-sqlite python-tz python-gobject python-dbus python-cairo python-crypto python-gtk2 python-gnome2 python-gnome2-extras lsb-release python-glade2
$> sudo dpkg -i vodafone-mobile-connect_2.20.01-1_all.deb
Running the Application
To run the applicatoin you can run from the command line in normal or logging mode with the commands:
$> vodafone-mobile-connect-card-driver-for-linux
$> vodafone-mobile-connect-card-driver-for-linux-debug
To start the application from your menu, choose applications, then internet.
Not quite as easy, especially as it will also keep requiring me to enter access passwords to uncompress and install things.
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no, there's a Voda Australia ap that just does it. No drama. Even works with non-Voda networks
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That could be useful. It's just a shame that the above string of commands is what's on the Vodafone (http://www.betavine.net/bvportal/resources/datacards/os/ubuntu) website (which isn't their main one, but a techie one). And in fact that's 100% better than it was a year ago, when it was far more convoluted.
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Having recently upgraded my pc (the only original parts left are the case, case fan, one hard drive and the DVD player/writer) Uncle Bill has decided that I am stealing the food out of the mouths of his and Melinda's children to the tune of a OEM copy of XP Home Basic. Having spotted my crime of having put new bits in a 6 year old PC Uncle Bill killed my computer.
No problem I thought, I'll install some flavour of Linux to get me up and running.
A few minutes of wibbling around on the laptop and I've got a bootable usb with the latest distro of Ubuntu (it's the Narwhal release - I had to go for it really) and we're set. Stick it in the PC, change BIOS settings so the PC will boot off the USB and away we go.
Everything looks promising, it looks like we're getting somewhere until.... weird black and white patterns all over the screen. OK thinks I, maybe this is something to do with the graphics card not being supported. 5 minutes later, graphics card out and the monitor plumbed in to the motherboard we try again.
All looks promising, the live disk is up and running and after a few attempts we seem to have installed Natty Narwhal on the virgin, new SATA drive. Reboot to load up from the hard drive and all seems to go fine until the monitor goes blank and tells me "Mode not supported". A google suggest that there is an option for booting to a safe mode so I can fix the problem but so far none of these suggestions has got me into a safe mode.
No worries thinks I - Ubuntu isn't the only game in town so I get my trusty USB stick and load it up with the shiniest version of Fedora instead. Feeling optimistic the graphics card goes back in and off we go. So far so good.
No problems this time, the live USB fires up straight off and we're feeling optimistic. I click on the handy install icon, click through a few screens until the bit where we decide where to install Fedora. We're scanning drives and we wait......and we wait......and we wait......make a cup of tea.....wait. Ok lets restart - exactly the same until we get to the same point - same again. Next time round we choose the option for installing in weird non-standard set-ups, just in case.
This looks promising, Fedora picks up on all the drives, identifies all the partitions on the old drive, surely it doesn't need to scan anything - it's seen it all already. Choose to install on the new drive (overwriting the Ubuntu install) - here we go. And we watch the little round time passing icon, and we wait, and wait, and wait.
So no joy there either. I won't let it beat me, there's plenty of distros left and I've got a whole weekend ahead to swear at the computer so I will get it working. But lets be honest this isn't a slick user experience.
I'm not a "computer" person but for a decade or so I've been the one keeping the computers working at the small business I work for so I understand at least some of the basics. I've moved on from Windows 98 & Me to a mix of XP, Vista and Server 2003, at home I've got various flavours of XP and VISTA so I'm familiar with the evils of Microsoft but no problem they have put in my way has been this irratating.
This isn't meant to be doing down Linux - I can see its inherent good and I will be sticking with it (unless I can persuade my BiL to fix me up with a free copy of Windows 7, which I'm pretty confident will install without fuss). It's more of a plea of understanding from those who don't seem to understand why people may have complaints about the Linux experience.
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It seems to me from reading this thread that those people who have had Linux issues are the ones who must have the most recent version installed and fiddle too much. If you meet a problem with the latest release let Ubuntu sort it out, they're the experts who designed it and are quick and anxious to sort it out.
If you leave them alone though, all previous Ubuntu OS's just work straight from the box and always have done for me.
As to the latest version, forget it until the issues get sorted. I happily use 10.04 which is updated as and when updates become available. such updates, unlike Microsoft, have never slowed down my computer or created any problems.
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Natty Narwhal server edition installed, from scratch, in less than half an hour this morning. I confess I had to do it twice, but that's because I did something stupid first time around.
I'll upgrade my dual-boot machine (xubuntu) later today, but will still wait a bit before upgrading my main machine.
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If it was Windows, there's be an exe file to run which would install everything, and within a minute, it would be working. If it's Ubuntu, I've got to follow this little lot of instructions:-
This is quite a significant point actually - and deserves some deeper consideration. I have tree replies for you - pleasse give each reply some separate consideration.
a) you're referring to Windows drivers being available for lots of hardware. Being slightly sarcastic here, that's part of the Microsoft business model - you as a manufacturer pay MS to certify your hardware, and that's part of MS revenue stream.
b) You complain about having to enter passwords - well that's a positive advantage. Most MS Windows installs simply grant the ordinary user administrative privileges - specifically because ordinary user compains endlessly about not being able to install x,y,z without typing in those pesky passwords or askign an administrator. But hold on there - that's precisely why the Windows world is rampant with viruses, malware, spyware.
c) Don;t wish to be rude, but you crow about there being 'one exe file to install 3G drivers'
I give you two counter cases - my works laptop is an excellent Lenovo Thinkpad, who sponsor us.
Dual core, more RAM than you can shake a stick as and a lovely display. As Vodafone also sponsor us, laptop has a 3G card and a SIM. But you cannot use the 3G card.
Why not? Because this is a 64 bit laptop and we use windows XP 64 bit professional.
There is no .exe for 3G cards for 64bit XP. None.
I also have a 3 Mifi - Huawei mobile access point. Plug in its USB lead and the Mifi carries onboard drivers in a .exe file. You guessed it - there is no 64 bit .exe file.
I will hammer this point home - you only get this .exe file for a small subset of operating systems which people around the world run. Even in the MS world not everyone runs 32 bit windows - and what version are you going to stick with because those .exe files make your life easy?
NT? XP? Vista? Windows 7?
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Needing a password to farkle with my own computer in my own home is completely ridiculous. I might add I always, on principle, do OS instals without any internet connection.
I just gave up moaning about Linux (in general) and Ubuntu (in particular) years ago. Lost cause.
Linux is certainly not a lost cause, most of the worlds servers run it, the internet runs on it, ...
Sure - on the desktop, I thought we were talking about.
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Needing a password to farkle with my own computer in my own home is completely ridiculous.
No. Allowing the install of privileged software without any sort of check is what leads to malware being so easily installed.
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Needing a password to farkle with my own computer in my own home is completely ridiculous. I might add I always, on principle, do OS instals without any internet connection.
You can set auto login for users anyway ie no password needed. But needing a password for admin is a simple way of separating the OS from the user, as a user it is not possible to trash your OS, the user account yes but not the main system. It is simple to create a new user account. It also stops any malware getting access to the OS from a user account.
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I won't let it beat me, there's plenty of distros left and I've got a whole weekend ahead to swear at the computer so I will get it working. But lets be honest this isn't a slick user experience.
Was the video card you removed Nvidia and the onboard card also NVidia ?
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Needing a password to farkle with my own computer in my own home is completely ridiculous.
No. Allowing the install of privileged software without any sort of check is what leads to malware being so easily installed.
The problem is that most people lack the sufficient knowledge to spot the difference between something genuine that needs raised privs in order to be installed, and the malware requesting raised privs to be installed.
Especially as malware spam comes with helpful things like:
"Click on the attachment to see the details of the package we are trying to deliver to you, in order to view it you may need to click 'Yes' to any popup boxes that appear."
If an OS could tell the difference between genuine software and malware then it wouldn't need to ask, it could just stop the malware regardless. For a non-certified/signed bit of software it can't.
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If it was Windows, there's be an exe file to run which would install everything, and within a minute, it would be working. If it's Ubuntu, I've got to follow this little lot of instructions:-
This is quite a significant point actually - and deserves some deeper consideration. I have tree replies for you - pleasse give each reply some separate consideration.
a) you're referring to Windows drivers being available for lots of hardware. Being slightly sarcastic here, that's part of the Microsoft business model - you as a manufacturer pay MS to certify your hardware, and that's part of MS revenue stream.
b) You complain about having to enter passwords - well that's a positive advantage. Most MS Windows installs simply grant the ordinary user administrative privileges - specifically because ordinary user compains endlessly about not being able to install x,y,z without typing in those pesky passwords or askign an administrator. But hold on there - that's precisely why the Windows world is rampant with viruses, malware, spyware.
c) Don;t wish to be rude, but you crow about there being 'one exe file to install 3G drivers'
I give you two counter cases - my works laptop is an excellent Lenovo Thinkpad, who sponsor us.
Dual core, more RAM than you can shake a stick as and a lovely display. As Vodafone also sponsor us, laptop has a 3G card and a SIM. But you cannot use the 3G card.
Why not? Because this is a 64 bit laptop and we use windows XP 64 bit professional.
There is no .exe for 3G cards for 64bit XP. None.
I also have a 3 Mifi - Huawei mobile access point. Plug in its USB lead and the Mifi carries onboard drivers in a .exe file. You guessed it - there is no 64 bit .exe file.
I will hammer this point home - you only get this .exe file for a small subset of operating systems which people around the world run. Even in the MS world not everyone runs 32 bit windows - and what version are you going to stick with because those .exe files make your life easy?
NT? XP? Vista? Windows 7?
Fair comments, but in response I'd say 64 bit XP is fairly non mainstream, hence the issue about no drivers. I've got 64 bit Windows 7 and drivers are more prevalent.
The point is that standard things should be easy to install on any system. And with the widespread use of Windows, it is easier on Windows.
You're right about security and passwords, but when it's an admin account it gets tedious.
Even with nice a GUI interface, under Ubuntu, if you want to add stuff, you can be forced to get involved with a command prompt far more than Windows.
However, if you just want a PC for browsing and simple stuff, I can definitely see the appeal of Ubuntu. I'm happy to use it on my notebook, but I won't be getting rid of Windows 7 on my PC!
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Adam, thanks for listening and I agree with what you say also.
Maybe as a compromise what we should say is that desktop computers (*) really still aren't at as advanced a stage as the manufacturers would like you believe. Windows, as a for instance, does do a good job at hiding the internal working of the system and abstracting the system to a desktop with windows/mice/pointer. But you do end up getting down to the nitty gritty of understanding BIOSes etc. on any desktop OS
(*) I'm not enlarging the discussion to embedded stuff
(**) the WIMPS interface is changing too - tablets are with us, and I would say people treat them more like mebedded devices - they're expected to boot up without problems, but if something does freeze up etc. you just power it down then back up
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Funny you should mention tablets, as I spent a bit of time yesterday doing some research on them.
Reviews, especially of the Android ones, seem to make the point about regular freezing requiring powering off & on, and it just seems to be accepted. It does seem as though the operating system is being asked to do more than expected - which I guess isn't surprising for something originally designed to dial a phone number!
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Android’s OS is Linux.
I think the problem is that dialling a phone is much harder than doing what PCs traditionally do, in fact.
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Funny you should mention tablets, as I spent a bit of time yesterday doing some research on them.
Reviews, especially of the Android ones, seem to make the point about regular freezing requiring powering off & on, and it just seems to be accepted. It does seem as though the operating system is being asked to do more than expected - which I guess isn't surprising for something originally designed to dial a phone number!
Google are aware of the limitations of Android on tablets and have received a lot of criticism for only releasing the source code for 2.2 to selected OEMs to try to control the quality of the final product but they are working on it for the next version Android 3.0 Platform Highlights | Android Developers (http://developer.android.com/sdk/android-3.0-highlights.html)
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I've persevered with Ubuntu - 11.04 64-bit on my dual-boot Win7 laptop, and now a working 10.10 on the old Sony Vaio, and I have to say I quite like it in both the Unity and Gnome iterations. On balance, I'd say the old Gnome desktop is easier to come to terms with for a Windows addict like me. Unity works in a rather strange way which I haven't really got yet. However, there are still issues on both computers - it's taken bloody ages to get Flash working on the 64-bit natty machine, I still can't get Google Earth to install, and I am heartily fed up with being asked for my password for every bloody click!! I do understand the security explanation, but this is way OTT. if I administrate my home system, I do want to be trusted once I've completed the initial security screen procedure!
What have I got out of this? Well, I've learned a new appreciation for how good Win7 Professional 64-bit is! I've found a useful way of keeping oldish hardware usable after it gets left behind by the Microsoft juggernaut. I'm impressed that Libre Office has much of the functionality of Office 2010, though - like with much Ubuntu stuff - it has some odd choices of default font sizes and visuals for its various screens. It assumes better eyesight than most people my age have! It also doesn't have (or I haven't found) native software support for the plethora of gadgets that I like to use in association with my computers - Garmins, phones, WHY.
It seems pretty obvious from reading some of the strongly-worded replies here that there are many who passionately believe in Linux and are sensitive to criticism of it, but if the desktop OS is to make the leap from a nerdy-enthusiast oddity to an acceptable alternative to Windows, the issues many have raised must be dealt with. For instance, I see several people suggesting us non-converts are daft for loading the latest iteration and should expect problems, but I've yet to read any justification for that. If it's out there in final release, it should work! If it doesn't, don't release beyond RC status.
Ubuntu is OK - and that's a lot better than my initial feeling about it - but it's not the Windows 7 alternative its proponents may claim. An alternative to XP, yes indeed. But not Win7.
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Flash on 64 bit Linux is very iffy. Adobe only released it last Autumn after have dropped support for it at least once. Don't blame Ubuntu blame Adobe it's their software.
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A lot of programmers struggle to write 64-bit clean code. Bad habits you get away with on a 32 bit compiler bite you on 64-bit.
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Flash on 64 bit Linux is very iffy. Adobe only released it last Autumn after have dropped support for it at least once. Don't blame Ubuntu blame Adobe it's their software.
It's on and working now, so I'll keep my fingers crossed. If it all gets too difficult, I'll bin Natty 64 and and install the 32-bit version and see if that copes better. But that would be under-utilisation of the hardware, and I'm sure that 64-bit support will rapidly increase and improve, so I'd like to persevere.
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The old Dec advert “do not ask when you need 64 bits, ask when you need 33” (or words to that effect) was good, but this shows a fundamental inefficiency with 64 bit computing: you tend to increase both code and working set size when compiling 64 bit. Many applications actually run slower when compiled for 64-bit, though I have experimented with this for modelling an algorithm designed for a 64-bit DSP processor on x86, and building the binary -m64 rather than -m32 made a factor of 2 difference, roughly.
If you’re doing heavyweight stuff like graphics rendering, then 64-bit can be good. If you’re doing the normal run of the mill general purpose programming, I’m not so sure. There is actually very little in a typical program that genuinely needs more than 32 bit int.
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There is actually very little in a typical program that genuinely needs more than 32 bit int.
So true, we've done lots of analysis on porting our software to 64-bit. Most of the 'reasons' from customers are dubious, since it's faster and smaller when running as a 32-bit process.
What is causing trouble is 32-bit compatability on 64-bit systems, Linux especially, as the 32-bit libraries ours programs rely upon (i.e. libc, etc) are beginning to be neglected as development focus moves to 64-bit.
We do have a few customers that push our software enough that they'd benefit from a native 64-bit version, but only because they want to store >4GB of data in memory in a single process.
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Needing a password to farkle with my own computer in my own home is completely ridiculous.
No. Allowing the install of privileged software without any sort of check is what leads to malware being so easily installed.
The problem is that most people lack the sufficient knowledge to spot the difference between something genuine that needs raised privs in order to be installed, and the malware requesting raised privs to be installed.
Especially as malware spam comes with helpful things like:
"Click on the attachment to see the details of the package we are trying to deliver to you, in order to view it you may need to click 'Yes' to any popup boxes that appear."
If an OS could tell the difference between genuine software and malware then it wouldn't need to ask, it could just stop the malware regardless. For a non-certified/signed bit of software it can't.
Well, I'm just back from dislodging another kludge of filthy, sweating malware from a friend's WinXP machine. This is not an uncommon way for me to spend Sunday mornings and personally I would rather be asleep or doing any of 606 other better things. Of course no one ever knows where they come from and they swear blind that they never install them or any other random program off the Internet. And they certainly didn't get them smut surfing.
The problem with authentication is that most users just get annoyed by pop-ups and clicking OK is reflexive - like pesky doorstep callers, users simply want the box to go away. You see the trick where the browser code opens a slew of browser windows - most users will diligently click OK on each one in an attempt to close them. I think a combination of sensible authentication and the repository /AppStore approach is a good one to minimise the opportunities for malware. I'd certainly say the lack of viruses and malware on Linux/Ubuntu (and MacOS) is a huge plus (if only for the fact I get a few extra hours in bed).
I stick with the contention that when a Linux distro works it works. When it doesn't you have the command line and a long future of frustration. I think it's a reasonable criticism and one that needs to be taken on board by any distro that aims to see itself on consumer desktops. It is not easy to design and implement a good, user-friendly, and secure desktop OS. Personally, I am happy to pay for a desktop OS, as I spend too long sitting in front of a computer I want something that works cleanly and smoothly. The modest investment pays off in lack of swearing and keyboard abuse.
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I won't let it beat me, there's plenty of distros left and I've got a whole weekend ahead to swear at the computer so I will get it working. But lets be honest this isn't a slick user experience.
Was the video card you removed Nvidia and the onboard card also NVidia ?
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it Bill bloody Gates!! Ubuntu up and running and so far all is good. Certainly far better than my memories of OpenSUSE that I tried out 3 or 4 years back. With the exception of my printer/scanner which I can only pretty basic print functionality from (thanks Kodak - surely a company your size can manage to produce Linux drivers?) everything now seems to be working well.
Now I guess it's just a case of getting used to a slightly different way of doing everything - after years of using Windows just something as simple as the close/minimize buttons now being top left rather than top right throws me.
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The buttons can be set to top right. Google.
(Not that I'm a fan of Ubunt/Linux).
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Mac has those top left. I've only had a mac a couple of months and already windows is starting to piss me off. This could get expensive as I just noticed new iMacs. Damn you Steve Jobs.
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A lot of posters have said "Ypu can't boot Linux in Safe Mode"
Well - there is an equivalent to Safe Mode.
In order of increasing difficulty:
a) simply press Ctrl-Alt-F1 and you get a text mode login - OK the dread command line,
but login as root and either fix things using command line or on SuSE type YAST2 - the familiar SuSE YAST2 graphical interface works in exactly the same way on a text mode terminal - how good is that then? (its a curses type interface - you tab to select options)
b) Assuming you have ssh enabled on your box, ssh into it from another machine.
Hell, install VNC or NX and you can get that remote desktop in order to run a GUI to fix things
c) learn how to boot your system in single user mode - you can then again install/configure graphics drivers
Also learn that the (yes command line) commands 'init 3' switch the system to a non-graphical state and 'init 5' switches it to a graphical state.
One obvious reason to run 'init 3' then 'init 5' is that you can test that new graphics driver. or X11 graphics setup WITHOUT a reboot. I deal with large, multi-user systems every day and I DO NOT want to reboot them unless I have to - so when recently I've been configuring Nvidia graphics cards on a very big machine other people are running things on it - and I don't have to reboot.
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b) Assuming you have ssh enabled on your box, ssh into it from another machine.
Hell, install VNC or NX and you can get that remote desktop in order to run a GUI to fix things
The discovery that I could ssh into my mbp - after appropriate settings made - made me quite a bit happier. The new model had a bug that caused the graphics to lock up, making it look like the machine had stiffed. If it recurred, after having fettle a bit, I could ssh in from my iPhone to reboot it cleanly. :smug:
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A lot of posters have said "Ypu can't boot Linux in Safe Mode"
Well - there is an equivalent to Safe Mode.
In order of increasing difficulty:
What they're mostly asking for, John, is a graphical safe mode. The daft thing is, the Ubuntu Live CD has just such an option, so all they have to do is go one step further and make it a post-installation option.
Also learn that the (yes command line) commands 'init 3' switch the system to a non-graphical state and 'init 5' switches it to a graphical state.
Not on Ubuntu (or Debian, Gentoo, Slackware and others (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runlevel)) though. Red Hat, SuSE and derivatives, yes.
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Personally, I am happy to pay for a desktop OS, as I spend too long sitting in front of a computer I want something that works cleanly and smoothly. The modest investment pays off in lack of swearing and keyboard abuse.
That's fine by me, Windows is probably the best OS for a lot of people although most Linux users have also paid for Windows because it comes pre installed on most machines. I am not really interested what OS people use but it is depressing when someone fails to install Linux then declares it is crap without giving it a chance I doubt many have had to do a clean install of Windows, which takes hours to install an OS with virtually no applications.
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I just bought a 16Gbyte San-disk USB drive.
I plug it into a Linux box - and a popup warns me there is autorun software on there - and do I want to run it (which wouldn't work under Linux anyway). the disk has on it a slew of DLLs, an update to Dotnet 3.0 SP1 and lots of language files - so you can get special offers from San-disk partners. I'm absolutely sure that San-disk make sure no malicious apps ship on their drives, but the potential for malware there is just staggering.
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I think MS have only just changed away from that as the default behaviour for Windows, in a recent service pack for Windows 7.
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A lot of posters have said "Ypu can't boot Linux in Safe Mode"
Well - there is an equivalent to Safe Mode.
In order of increasing difficulty:
a) simply press Ctrl-Alt-F1 and you get a text mode login - OK the dread command line,
but login as root and either fix things using command line or on SuSE type YAST2 - the familiar SuSE YAST2 graphical interface works in exactly the same way on a text mode terminal - how good is that then? (its a curses type interface - you tab to select options)
b) Assuming you have ssh enabled on your box, ssh into it from another machine.
Hell, install VNC or NX and you can get that remote desktop in order to run a GUI to fix things
c) learn how to boot your system in single user mode - you can then again install/configure graphics drivers
Also learn that the (yes command line) commands 'init 3' switch the system to a non-graphical state and 'init 5' switches it to a graphical state.
One obvious reason to run 'init 3' then 'init 5' is that you can test that new graphics driver. or X11 graphics setup WITHOUT a reboot. I deal with large, multi-user systems every day and I DO NOT want to reboot them unless I have to - so when recently I've been configuring Nvidia graphics cards on a very big machine other people are running things on it - and I don't have to reboot.
Anyone else completely mystified by the language above? I haven't got a scooby what you're on about - and I don't see any handy Ubuntugeek-English/English-Ubuntugeek dictionaries lying around. ;)
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for step (a) simply press the keys marked Ctrl Alt and F1
I'll admit on re-reading my post step (b) is impenetrable geekspeak - if you don;t know what ssh/NX and vnc are then it is meanlingless. Your point it taken.
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Personally, I am happy to pay for a desktop OS, as I spend too long sitting in front of a computer I want something that works cleanly and smoothly. The modest investment pays off in lack of swearing and keyboard abuse.
That's fine by me, Windows is probably the best OS for a lot of people although most Linux users have also paid for Windows because it comes pre installed on most machines. I am not really interested what OS people use but it is depressing when someone fails to install Linux then declares it is crap without giving it a chance I doubt many have had to do a clean install of Windows, which takes hours to install an OS with virtually no applications.
Hmmm. The last two clean installs of Win7 I did - not on cutting-edge hardware - took about 20 minutes each, and were very smooth. Not as quick as Linux, perhaps, but I didn't have to go driver hunting afterwards, or accept that significant elements of my computer or office wouldn't work to their full capacity.
I do feel that much of the Windows/Linux comparison going on is between XP and much newer Linux distros. Comparing Win XP with 2001 issues of Ubuntu might be more revealing - or comparing Win7 with Ubuntu, what, 9.04? I find Win7 to be bloody good at almost every level. I don't have a pathological hatred of all things MS (or Mac - a bigger company - either). I think these various willy-waving comparisons are pretty unhelpful, and tend to be restating old prejudices. At on objective level, Ubuntu is an interesting but incomplete OS which has the potential to make Windows and Mac OS sweat - but it's not there yet.
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for step (a) simply press the keys marked Ctrl Alt and F1
I'll admit on re-reading my post step (b) is impenetrable geekspeak - if you don;t know what ssh/NX and vnc are then it is meanlingless. Your point it taken.
Hey, I'm teasing you. I don't understand it, but I could probably decipher it without too much difficulty! ;D
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Meh, depends what you want from your OS. I'm a Java developer. My company PC has Windows 7 and it's a nightmare to work with. No sed or grep as standard, and even once installed they don't work properly, pipelines are poorly handled and buggy, and I've got time to make myself a cup of tea between starting up my IDE and actually being able to run a job.
My colleagues mostly use Macs.
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or accept that significant elements of my computer or office wouldn't work to their full capacity.
At on objective level, Ubuntu is an interesting but incomplete OS
Do you not think your comments may be seen as a little condescending declaring that " Ubuntu is an interesting but incomplete OS " and "accept that significant elements of my computer or office wouldn't work to their full capacity." Your findings, after objective testing of course, ::-) I suspect, will be a bit of a surprise to the millions of Ubuntu users worldwide :o
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I would say that as an OS Linux is pretty much complete. Windows doesn’t do anything that Linux can't do.
The areas where Linux is behind are applications, yes there are loads of good Linux ones but there are some killer apps that don't have a Linux version the big one for most people being Photoshop.
The other problem area is a directory. MS have Active Directory and Novell had eDirectory. For a corporate desktop you really need an equivalent so you can mange rights and access to data from a single place.
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Mac has those top left. I've only had a mac a couple of months and already windows is starting to piss me off. This could get expensive as I just noticed new iMacs. Damn you Steve Jobs.
Traditionally, I'd read and send a few emails on the MacBook while my work XP laptop grunted into life like some kind of zombie on decaf.
Of course, I can now send emails on the iPad while the MacBook boots. I look forward to the day when the emails send themselves while I sleep.
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Mac has those top left. I've only had a mac a couple of months and already windows is starting to piss me off. This could get expensive as I just noticed new iMacs. Damn you Steve Jobs.
Traditionally, I'd read and send a few emails on the MacBook while my work XP laptop grunted into life like some kind of zombie on decaf.
Of course, I can now send emails on the iPad while the MacBook boots. I look forward to the day when the emails send themselves while I sleep.
It’s almost like the 1980s, when computers started almost instantly. I have never had a Windows PC boot in a reasonable time.
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A lot of posters have said "Ypu can't boot Linux in Safe Mode"
Well - there is an equivalent to Safe Mode.
In order of increasing difficulty:
What they're mostly asking for, John, is a graphical safe mode. The daft thing is, the Ubuntu Live CD has just such an option, so all they have to do is go one step further and make it a post-installation option.
Its already there. Just choose "Ubuntu (recovery mode)" from the GRUB boot menu. Then there's an option to run in failsafe graphics mode.
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To answer the original question; I wouldn't say it's crap but is extremely frustrating to use or at least to set up.
I've just got a new netbook (Samsung N210), with Win 7 which I don't want to use so I've install the latest Ubuntu. There are 2 big problems: the screen brightness adjustment and the wireless don't work properly, even after I've download Samsung Tools from the Synaptic Package Manager.
If I start the computer on battery power, the screen stays on the dimmest setting and I have use a command line to make it brighter. Each time I turn on the computer the wireless does one of three things and each time it's different: works, not detected, or detected but can't connect.
I've used Gparted to created and re-size the partitions which was easy to use. But then when I tried to use the partitions, I don't have the permission to read or write!
So it's:
Find out where the partition is mounted by opening a terminal and typing 'mount' (without the quotes)
If it's mounted on something like /media/disk just issue the following command:
sudo chown -R username:username /media/disk
Replace username with your logon name.
Then do:
sudo chmod -R 755 /media/disk
Then unmount and remount the drive, or just reboot
It worked, but should people who are not programmers have to do this sort of thing? What's the point of a GUI OS if something as basic as this needs command lines. Even those instructions are not foolproof, "disk" at the end of the line needs to be replaced with the partition name, which is a long string of random numbers and letters. I knew if you type the first couple letters of the name and then press the tab key the rest gets filled in automatically. If you didn't know and had to type it manually, it would be very tedious and very easy to make a mistake.
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It worked, but should people who are not programmers have to do this sort of thing? What's the point of a GUI OS if something as basic as this needs command lines.
It doesn't. A standard Ubuntu installation will have at least two graphical disk management utilities. You don't need to use the cli to manage disks on any of the major Linux distributions and haven't for a very long time now.
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It worked, but should people who are not programmers have to do this sort of thing? What's the point of a GUI OS if something as basic as this needs command lines.
It doesn't. A standard Ubuntu installation will have at least two graphical disk management utilities. You don't need to use the cli to manage disks on any of the major Linux distributions and haven't for a very long time now.
That would be Disk Utility which I've just found. I've deleted the partitions and made new ones. Disk Utility did unlock one by formating with "take control" ticked but the other one won't stay unlocked. If I mount it one time it's locked, then if I unmount and mount again it's not locked although there is a still an inaccessable lost and found folder. But I wished the forum post I quote had mentioned using Disk Utility as well as using the command line.
Edit: I've had to use the command line to unlock it.
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I've used Gparted to created and re-size the partitions which was easy to use. But then when I tried to use the partitions, I don't have the permission to read or write!
Can you not just add yourself to the disk group this way root is still the owner but you have access.
sudo adduser yourname disk
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Mac has those top left. I've only had a mac a couple of months and already windows is starting to piss me off. This could get expensive as I just noticed new iMacs. Damn you Steve Jobs.
Traditionally, I'd read and send a few emails on the MacBook while my work XP laptop grunted into life like some kind of zombie on decaf.
Of course, I can now send emails on the iPad while the MacBook boots. I look forward to the day when the emails send themselves while I sleep.
It’s almost like the 1980s, when computers started almost instantly. I have never had a Windows PC boot in a reasonable time.
True. Windows PC have always lagged behind. ;D
Although Windows 7 is a lot better, as mine takes less than 25 seconds.
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I've used Gparted to created and re-size the partitions which was easy to use. But then when I tried to use the partitions, I don't have the permission to read or write!
Can you not just add yourself to the disk group this way root is still the owner but you have access.
sudo adduser yourname disk
OK, given the nature of this thread, I should mention that there'll be a GUI tool for user/group management. But it's an incorrect tip, this one. Adding yourself to the disk group would enable you to format and repartition disks, but it would not give you any special ability to mount filesystems. You normally need to be the superuser to mount filesystems, unless the user option has been enabled for the mount, in which case any user will be able to mount it. Note that this doesn't automatically mean that the user will be able to write to the filesystem (unless it's a legacy fs like FAT which doesn't support ACLs); if the ACLs on the filesystem don't give the user read or write access, they wont' have it (note: this true of Windows as well, except that most home users log in as an administrator, so they don't notice).
True. Windows PC have always lagged behind. ;D
Although Windows 7 is a lot better, as mine takes less than 25 seconds.
How useful is it at that point, though? Starting with XP, Windows introduced a behaviour of logging you in as soon as enough had been done to show you your desktop; it would often still, at this point, still be configuring network resources and starting up programs in the background, so that the PC might not actually be useful for another couple of minutes.
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Mac has those top left. I've only had a mac a couple of months and already windows is starting to piss me off. This could get expensive as I just noticed new iMacs. Damn you Steve Jobs.
Traditionally, I'd read and send a few emails on the MacBook while my work XP laptop grunted into life like some kind of zombie on decaf.
Of course, I can now send emails on the iPad while the MacBook boots. I look forward to the day when the emails send themselves while I sleep.
It’s almost like the 1980s, when computers started almost instantly. I have never had a Windows PC boot in a reasonable time.
True. Windows PC have always lagged behind. ;D
Although Windows 7 is a lot better, as mine takes less than 25 seconds.
Do people still shutdown their machines every night and boot them up every morning? Blimey.
My desktop PC and laptop 'boot' in mere seconds since I put them in 'sleep' mode overnight.
They get rebooted once a month or so when patches that require a reboot are applied.
I don't waste time waiting for the apps to start up either since I leave them running when putting the computer in sleep mode.
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Although Windows 7 is a lot better, as mine takes less than 25 seconds.
Do people still shutdown their machines every night and boot them up every morning? Blimey.
My desktop PC and laptop 'boot' in mere seconds since I put them in 'sleep' mode overnight.
They get rebooted once a month or so when patches that require a reboot are applied.
I don't waste time waiting for the apps to start up either since I leave them running when putting the computer in sleep mode.
I hibernate my XP machine, it has a boot process measured on a geological timescale, but it only remains stable for about five hibernation cycles and then needs to be shut down and given counselling (plus by that time its accumulated enough critical security patches to be in panicked screaming mode for a reboot).
I sleep the Macs, but usually put them to bed properly at night, mostly because I watched War Games when I was little and I know what happens if you leave computers unattended. They may just be pretending to be asleep. Plus they boot from cold in a minute or so. Sleep seems to work on the Mac, pretty much instant on. Stand by in XP usually seems to involve a minute of someone sawing through the hard disk followed by wireless and VPN roulette - will it or won't it. I never got suspend / hibernate options to work properly on a Ubuntu machine - but that's understandable given the dependence on hardware, which is why it's so damn good on the Apple.
I do like the way that sometimes when I sleep the XP machine by closing the lid a program plaintively cries something along the lines of "Excel is preventing this machine going into stand by". Brilliant, an on-screen error message on a closed laptop. Whereupon it'll go ahead and use all the battery power to heat up my bag to somewhere near that of the Sun's chromosphere. Top tip, next time you are stuck and exposed on a frozen ice planet, don't eviscerate a Ton-Ton, just curl up around a faux-hibernating Dell laptop.
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it's an incorrect tip, this one. Adding yourself to the disk group would enable you to format and repartition disks, but it would not give you any special ability to mount filesystems. You normally need to be the superuser to mount filesystems, unless the user option has been enabled for the mount, in which case any user will be able to mount it. Note that this doesn't automatically mean that the user will be able to write to the filesystem (unless it's a legacy fs like FAT which doesn't support ACLs);
I have just removed myself from the "disk" group and lost access to a partition. I changed the permissions using a GUI ( Dolphin as root) and have regained access. the file system is ext4 so it seems to work either way.
For additional partitions wouldn't you just auto mount them by adding them to the fstab, with a gui of course :) no cl trickery needed
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Personally, I am happy to pay for a desktop OS, as I spend too long sitting in front of a computer I want something that works cleanly and smoothly. The modest investment pays off in lack of swearing and keyboard abuse.
That's fine by me, Windows is probably the best OS for a lot of people although most Linux users have also paid for Windows because it comes pre installed on most machines. I am not really interested what OS people use but it is depressing when someone fails to install Linux then declares it is crap without giving it a chance I doubt many have had to do a clean install of Windows, which takes hours to install an OS with virtually no applications.
To be fair, I do use Ubuntu on my netbook, and Mandriva on the ingredient-spattered recipe-puter in the kitchen, along with XP on my work laptop, and OSX on the bulk of the many computers that lurk around my overly computerised house. And I did set up the Win7 machines for the extended family. So I think I have a reasonable overview of the pros and cons of each.
Personally, I think Ubuntu is fine. It's not an issue of the power or functionality of the OS - it's usability that needs to be improved. Too much is still invested in the command line and GUI tools are inconsistently deployed, and often poorly designed. If Ubuntu (or another distro) really wants to pitch as an alternative to OSX and Win7, then it needs to keep this in mind.
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Mac has those top left. I've only had a mac a couple of months and already windows is starting to piss me off. This could get expensive as I just noticed new iMacs. Damn you Steve Jobs.
Traditionally, I'd read and send a few emails on the MacBook while my work XP laptop grunted into life like some kind of zombie on decaf.
Of course, I can now send emails on the iPad while the MacBook boots. I look forward to the day when the emails send themselves while I sleep.
It’s almost like the 1980s, when computers started almost instantly. I have never had a Windows PC boot in a reasonable time.
True. Windows PC have always lagged behind. ;D
Although Windows 7 is a lot better, as mine takes less than 25 seconds.
Do people still shutdown their machines every night and boot them up every morning? Blimey.
My desktop PC and laptop 'boot' in mere seconds since I put them in 'sleep' mode overnight.
They get rebooted once a month or so when patches that require a reboot are applied.
I don't waste time waiting for the apps to start up either since I leave them running when putting the computer in sleep mode.
I wish my work laptop coped well with sleeping. It's a mess. It takes >25s to come out of sleep when I dock it at work, and the second screen is inoperable.
mac handles it beautifully by comparison.
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My old T60 used to be a bit of a pain, sometimes more than a minute to come out of sleep, but that was all down to a hardware problem. The new W510 works a treat, is awake within seconds and handles the detection of the dock and two attached screens as expected.
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True. Windows PC have always lagged behind. ;D
Although Windows 7 is a lot better, as mine takes less than 25 seconds.
How useful is it at that point, though? Starting with XP, Windows introduced a behaviour of logging you in as soon as enough had been done to show you your desktop; it would often still, at this point, still be configuring network resources and starting up programs in the background, so that the PC might not actually be useful for another couple of minutes.
Everything's loaded and ready to run. 8)
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Interestingly I'm going to drop down from Ubuntu 11.04 to 10.04 LTS version.. (I had upgraded xubuntu 10.10 to xubuntu 11.04, then installed kubuntu desktop on top of it, didn't like it, then installed ubuntu desktop on top of that! Now it's all gone a bit whacky So I think i nice fresh install of plain ubuntu 10.04 LTS will be better than trying the latest and greatest! Hopefully going to be developing my own photography website, so I'd rather have a nice stable machine!
:thumbsup:
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Although Windows 7 is a lot better, as mine takes less than 25 seconds.
How useful is it at that point, though? Starting with XP, Windows introduced a behaviour of logging you in as soon as enough had been done to show you your desktop; it would often still, at this point, still be configuring network resources and starting up programs in the background, so that the PC might not actually be useful for another couple of minutes.
You may have some/a lot of unnecessary processes at start-up if it's taking a couple of minutes. Trim those down and do some other tweaks and you can get it down to a few seconds.
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Here's another example of the issue why, as I mentioned above, Ubuntu is fine installed as it is, but nowhere near as polished as Windows when you want to actually add something.
My notebook doesn't have the latest version of Java installed. In view of the length and complexity of the instructions, I haven't cut & pasted them, but the procedure to be followed is shown here (http://www.java.com/en/download/help/linux_install.xml#rpm).
Certainly not user friendly.
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Here's another example of the issue why, as I mentioned above, Ubuntu is fine installed as it is, but nowhere near as polished as Windows when you want to actually add something.
My notebook doesn't have the latest version of Java installed. In view of the length and complexity of the instructions, I haven't cut & pasted them, but the procedure to be followed is shown here (http://www.java.com/en/download/help/linux_install.xml#rpm).
Certainly not user friendly.
But also not necessary for many of the more popular distributions. On Debian, for example, you'll find that somebody has repackaged it already and all those manual steps are now automated, with only the bit where you have to agree to the terms and conditions requiring user input.
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My notebook doesn't have the latest version of Java installed. In view of the length and complexity of the instructions, I haven't cut & pasted them, but the procedure to be followed is shown here (http://www.java.com/en/download/help/linux_install.xml#rpm).
Certainly not user friendly.
But also not necessary for many of the more popular distributions. On Debian, for example, you'll find that somebody has repackaged it already and all those manual steps are now automated, with only the bit where you have to agree to the terms and conditions requiring user input.
Ubuntu (and presumably Debian) has the openjdk implementation of Java in it's repositories so you don't even need to agree to a license agreement, and the added benefit is that it'll automatically be updated.
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Here's another example of the issue why, as I mentioned above, Ubuntu is fine installed as it is, but nowhere near as polished as Windows when you want to actually add something.
My notebook doesn't have the latest version of Java installed. In view of the length and complexity of the instructions, I haven't cut & pasted them, but the procedure to be followed is shown here (http://www.java.com/en/download/help/linux_install.xml#rpm).
Certainly not user friendly.
Why would you want to install java outside of the APT package management system. How is "apt-get install sun-java6-bin" difficult. Even better apt-get install default-jre which will install the open version. These are both easily found using the search facility in synaptic.
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My notebook doesn't have the latest version of Java installed. In view of the length and complexity of the instructions, I haven't cut & pasted them, but the procedure to be followed is shown here (http://www.java.com/en/download/help/linux_install.xml#rpm).
Certainly not user friendly.
But also not necessary for many of the more popular distributions. On Debian, for example, you'll find that somebody has repackaged it already and all those manual steps are now automated, with only the bit where you have to agree to the terms and conditions requiring user input.
Ubuntu (and presumably Debian) has the openjdk implementation of Java in it's repositories so you don't even need to agree to a license agreement, and the added benefit is that it'll automatically be updated.
If you had previously installed a Debian-packaged version of the Sun jdk and the licensing conditions have not changed, that will be true. If either of those is not true, you'll have to agree to the license.
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Ubuntu (and presumably Debian) has the openjdk implementation of Java in it's repositories so you don't even need to agree to a license agreement, and the added benefit is that it'll automatically be updated.
If you had previously installed a Debian-packaged version of the Sun jdk and the licensing conditions have not changed, that will be true. If either of those is not true, you'll have to agree to the license.
Getting off topic... but my understanding is that the default Java implementation in Ubuntu and Fedora (OpenJDK? IcedTea? even I'm confused!) isn't the same as the one released by Sun. My hard disk died last week so I had to do a clean reinstall, and it definitely didn't require a special license agreement. Of course if you go out of the way to choose the Sun version then you would have to.
As far as a typical user is concerned they could just go to add/remove software, search for Java, and the OpenJDK version should come up.
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Well I updated Lubuntu and now it no longer show a visible screen.
POS software, I expected better. especially as I didn't go to the latest.
Now I'm stuck
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Right after several restarts it now no longer showing a white screen.
WTF is that about?
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Right after several restarts it now no longer showing a white screen.
WTF is that about?
Nvidea driver issue. It's hitting lots of Linux distributions. SuSE does the same thing. You need to set "nomodep" on boot until you install the propriotary Nvidea drivers. It's a problem with the driver in X.org. Ubuntu has an option on install to set nomodep.
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It's the Insane Clown Posse release.
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Right after several restarts it now no longer showing a white screen.
WTF is that about?
Nvidea driver issue. It's hitting lots of Linux distributions. SuSE does the same thing. You need to set "nomodep" on boot until you install the propriotary Nvidea drivers. It's a problem with the driver in X.org. Ubuntu has an option on install to set nomodep.
How do I do that?
So why would it work after a few restarts?
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Its a hardware detection thing. Maybe it picked up the right settings on one of the reboots or maybe it was downloading the driver in the background. I never used Lubuntu so I am not sure.
I normal Ubuntu when you get the first screen where you can choose to Install or run from CD there is a boot options menu (F6 of the top of my head) and in there one of the options is nomodep.
Once installed and on the first boot as soon as it displays the logo you hit any key and it lets you edit the grub options to add nomdep for that boot.
Once your logged in you just go into the System Options and there is an icon to load additional drivers that lets you load teh proprietary Nvidea drivers. Once they are loaded, reboot and no more problems.
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So thats easy then ::-)
Lubuntu is just another front end.
Right second issue, the disc things its full. So it wont log on. Any ideas of the comands that would work when loging in to the root from the repair install?
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Delete some stuff :)
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Now you are being as pedantic, just like the bloody computer. ::-)
I don't know why it things its full cos its not. Or shouldn't be.
I'd like it to see whats in the root and see what I can dispose of but the commands listed didn't work.
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Right I have got to the repair and am at the root file. Asking for ls -sh and the reply come back as 0 that seems a bit odd. Asking whoami comes up with root.
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Right after the last post I figured out, with lots of assumption.
It was the trashcan being full. Deleted another file and that gave me enough space.
EDIT spoke too soon. ;)
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Its a hardware detection thing. Maybe it picked up the right settings on one of the reboots or maybe it was downloading the driver in the background. I never used Lubuntu so I am not sure.
I normal Ubuntu when you get the first screen where you can choose to Install or run from CD there is a boot options menu (F6 of the top of my head) and in there one of the options is nomodep.
Once installed and on the first boot as soon as it displays the logo you hit any key and it lets you edit the grub options to add nomdep for that boot.
Once your logged in you just go into the System Options and there is an icon to load additional drivers that lets you load teh proprietary Nvidea drivers. Once they are loaded, reboot and no more problems.
You were correct with the F6 thing, but do I install or run from CD...I rally have no idea and am a bit lost. Will google more.
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If you want to install Ubuntu onto the hard drive do Install. If you just want to run form the CD to fix something then run from CD.
If your installing after its installed and reboots as soon as you see teh grub menu
On first boot after install, press e on getting the GRUB bootloader.
Using arrow keys navigate to and delete quiet and splash and type the word nomodeset in their place
Press Ctrl and X to boot
Should let you login and install Nvidias drivers. Then it should reboot OK.
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Right after several restarts it now no longer showing a white screen.
WTF is that about?
I have also read your subsequent posts but am not sure what your current situation is. Assuming you have a NVidia video card then it probably is that your hardware is not being recognised by the new nouveau driver. Your system is running but you don't have a working Xserver so no pretty desktop. If you are considering a reinstall then it may be worth trying to revert to a basic vesa driver to get some graphics then installing the proprietary NVidea driver from your desktop.If you want to try this ( I don't use Ubuntu so I don't know if it will work) then just start your system until you get a blank screen. Then press alt-ctl and F1 you should now have another screen with a cursor and a $ sign you now want to remove the nouveau driver so type sudo apt-get remove xserver-xorg-video-nouveau then just to make sure vesa is installed sudo apt-get install xserver-xorg-video-vesa if it is already installed no problem it will just tell you that. you then need to reboot sudo shutdown -r now and when it reboots see if you have a desktop.
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Right tried Inc way and doesn't change still a blank screen, but boots from the live CD fine to the desktop.
Am confused.
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am at the root with no driver installed.
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Right tried Inc way and doesn't change still a blank screen, but boots from the live CD fine to the desktop.
Am confused.
That is OK as the cd is now working with the vesa driver there may be other bits of the Nvidia set up that still needs to be removed, using the instructions above ctl + alt = F1 then try sudo apt-get purge nvidia-glx then reboot shutdown -r now and see if that makes any difference.
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Or try:
apt-get install nvidia-glx-new linux-restricted-modules
then
nvidia-settings
which will install Nvidias propriatory driver and confgur it.
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Or try:
apt-get install nvidia-glx-new linux-restricted-modules
then
nvidia-settings
which will install Nvidias propriatory driver and confgur it.
tried the first line with sudo and it was unable to locate package and the second said control panel undefined.
The reboot went to the garbled page
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Right tried Inc way and doesn't change still a blank screen, but boots from the live CD fine to the desktop.
Am confused.
That is OK as the cd is now working with the vesa driver there may be other bits of the Nvidia set up that still needs to be removed, using the instructions above ctl + alt = F1 then try sudo apt-get purge nvidia-glx then reboot shutdown -r now and see if that makes any difference.
Tried that and it did not install anything.
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Or try:
apt-get install nvidia-glx-new linux-restricted-modules
then
nvidia-settings
which will install Nvidias propriatory driver and confgur it.
tried the first line with sudo and it was unable to locate package and the second said control panel undefined.
The reboot went to the garbled page
What repositories do you have enabled for downloading software from ?
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Or try:
apt-get install nvidia-glx-new linux-restricted-modules
then
nvidia-settings
which will install Nvidias propriatory driver and confgur it.
tried the first line with sudo and it was unable to locate package and the second said control panel undefined.
The reboot went to the garbled page
What repositories do you have enabled for downloading software from ?
What ever was standard on ubuntu
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Looked on this thread:
[SOLVED] Nvidia driver issue resurrected following Natty upgrade - Ubuntu Forums (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1744248)
Tried #4 post
sudo apt-get install nvidia-current
sudo nvidia-xconfig
sudo reboot
Same again of white lines (the drivers are the latest according to the first command)
Still the same
Tried post #9
sudo apt-get install --reinstall linux-headers-'uname -r'
sudo apt-get install --reinstall linux-image-'uname -r'
sudo apt-get install dkms (You probably have this one.. but just in case)
First two not found
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edit /etc/default/grub
look for the line that starts:
GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT=
add no modeset so it looks something like this (you may have a few other options in there)
GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet splash nomodeset"
Then
sudo update-grub
Reboot and you should get the gui. The use the gui and "install additional drivers" to get the proper Nvidia drivers. Remove "nomodset" from /etc/default/grub, rerun update-grub and reboot.
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Where would grub be? The boot\grub directory?
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As in the post above you edit /etc/default/grub which is the config file for grub.
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As in the post above you edit /etc/default/grub which is the config file for grub.
Won't allow edit error no "edit" mailcap rules found for type "application/octet-strem"
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Where would grub be? The boot\grub directory?
To edit grub you need to use a text editor, I think most distros have nano installed, it is not that intuitive but there is a help file. Unfortunatly I don't know if this is going to help you as it is difficult to now know what you have installed in the way of a driver.
sudo nano /etc/default/grub
I should have also mentioned that you need to update the repositories before running any installs to get the latest versions, I didn't mention it for the vesa install but it may be important for all the later stuff you installed
sudo apt-get update
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Thnk you, have done the edit thing and added nomodeset to the end of the line after the update grub and the same thing happens, the white screen and garbled characters.
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OK what is your PC and what exact graphics card does it have ?
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OK what is your PC and what exact graphics card does it have ?
Its toshiba laptop with a nvidia g force fx card
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What model of Toshiba Laptop ?
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satelite p10
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OK that has a Geoforce FX5100 which is supported. It should work.
Let take a step back. If you boot using the live CD and do the F6 nomodset thing does it work OK as in does it show the desktop properly ?
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Hello
Sorry had enough and stepped away. Running the live cd of lubuntu runs fine and it all worked fine until it
updated to the latest natty narwhall.
Have downlaoded the latest version and taht boots fine so am lost.
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I have installed 11.04 on my netbook.
Big mistake - it's hateful.
I'm going back to 10.04 netbook edition, which I get on fine with.
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Hello
Sorry had enough and stepped away. Running the live cd of lubuntu runs fine and it all worked fine until it
updated to the latest natty narwhall.
Have downlaoded the latest version and taht boots fine so am lost.
Youve lost me now. I you booting from a 10.10 cd then updating to 11.04 ?
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I have installed 11.04 on my netbook.
Big mistake - it's hateful.
I'm going back to 10.04 netbook edition, which I get on fine with.
You know you don't have to use Unity don't you ? You can choose Ubuntu classic from teh login screen then it will look just like 10.04 or 10.10.
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I have installed 11.04 on my netbook.
Big mistake - it's hateful.
I'm going back to 10.04 netbook edition, which I get on fine with.
You know you don't have to use Unity don't you ? You can choose Ubuntu classic from teh login screen then it will look just like 10.04 or 10.10.
Yeah that's what I do, well actually Ubuntu classic (no effects), luckily it remembers and you don't have to select it every time you log in. At first I didn't know this and had to use Unity; what a loada shite! Apparently the next update is not going to include the 'classic' desktop, big mistake; they're either going to lose a huge number of users or they're going to have to change their mind.
Another annoyance is I didn't know about the 'alternate' install which has full disk encryption. It's like they don't really want anyone to use it or know about it. I've only been using Linux/Ubuntu for about 2 weeks, first with the standard installation. Then I found out about the 'alternate' version. But trying to install it wasn't straightforward.
Both Unetbootin and Universal-USB-Installer wouldn't make a live USB that works. In the end I got it to work by restoring a backup image of the standard ubuntu installation (Clonezilla) and used the included live usb creating program, called "create start up disk" I think. But that was after many, many attempts and searching for information, I had to come up with what I did by myself.
Then came the installation and setting up the partitions. I found a web page guide and it still took me about 3 days to finally set it up the way I wanted it.
Even now I still get a blank screen with "Error: no video mode activated" after turning on the computer, before the login page, but it seems to load normally. The only odd thing is sometimes a small section of the top or bottom panel disappears or get gets covers with the desktop background.
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The thing is they have been trying to keep it down to a single CD for the standard install with a full suite of applications. It restricts how much variation they can have quite a lot. SuSE for example has been a DVD for years and Debian has been m,multi CD for ages years and years.
At the moment they are discussing moving to 2 CDs for 11.10 as it's getting too hard to keep it down to one.
I wont be surprised if they don't have "classic" in 11.10 as the whole point of Ubuntu has been to make a slick desktop and they only want to concentrate on one. Splitting their development effort over several desktops would slow things down.
Gnome 3 is out now anyway so 11.10 will have that and if it doesn't include the full desktop and Gnome 3 shell you will be able to install a vanilla version of it I can almost guarantee. If its not in the standard Canonical supported repositories then then someone will split off a Gnome 3 version of Ubuntu just like they have with Kubuntu, Lubuntu etc.
UNity isnt so bad if you stick with it a while. They should have waited until the next release though to have it as the default. Mind you Gnome 3 with Gnome Shell is pretty different to a Gnome 2.x desktop as well so there is no staying still.
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Hello
Sorry had enough and stepped away. Running the live cd of lubuntu runs fine and it all worked fine until it
updated to the latest natty narwhall.
Have downlaoded the latest version and taht boots fine so am lost.
Youve lost me now. I you booting from a 10.10 cd then updating to 11.04 ?
The laptop had 10.04 installed, that it updae itself to 10.10 and then updated to Natty Narhaall.
I have copied a new cd with the latest version of Lubuntu. Am amazed that last night I could even get on the net.
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I have installed 11.04 on my netbook.
Big mistake - it's hateful.
I'm going back to 10.04 netbook edition, which I get on fine with.
You know you don't have to use Unity don't you ? You can choose Ubuntu classic from teh login screen then it will look just like 10.04 or 10.10.
Thanks for the tip - I'll give it a go!
<later>
That's a lot better!
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The thing is they have been trying to keep it down to a single CD for the standard install with a full suite of applications. It restricts how much variation they can have quite a lot. SuSE for example has been a DVD for years and Debian has been m,multi CD for ages years and years.
At the moment they are discussing moving to 2 CDs for 11.10 as it's getting too hard to keep it down to one.
I wont be surprised if they don't have "classic" in 11.10 as the whole point of Ubuntu has been to make a slick desktop and they only want to concentrate on one. Splitting their development effort over several desktops would slow things down.
Gnome 3 is out now anyway so 11.10 will have that and if it doesn't include the full desktop and Gnome 3 shell you will be able to install a vanilla version of it I can almost guarantee. If its not in the standard Canonical supported repositories then then someone will split off a Gnome 3 version of Ubuntu just like they have with Kubuntu, Lubuntu etc.
UNity isnt so bad if you stick with it a while. They should have waited until the next release though to have it as the default. Mind you Gnome 3 with Gnome Shell is pretty different to a Gnome 2.x desktop as well so there is no staying still.
#
I've been using Unity on 11:04 and Gnome on 10:10 for a couple of weeks now. On my PCs I use Win 7 with Object Dock (similar to the Mac Dock, and a modified version is standard on Dell PCs), and I've used it for years. Object Dock is installed as part of 10:10, though it's not as user friendly as the PC version. Unity is actually quite similar, though it's permanently stuck to the LHS of the screen (as far as I can tell). The net result is that the user experience is fairly similar across all three formats, though different in detail. From my earlier position of frustration, I'm beginning to like the speed of boot-up of Ubuntu, but I still haven't a clue what all this 'sudo' and other linux-geek-speak is all about! ;) There are some other annoyances; the default speed of reversion to screen saver or dark screen is too quick, and the requirement for incessant entering of a password (or whatever Ubuntu calls it) is annoying - and, yes, I know you can adjust both these things somewhat.
There do seem to be a few workable alternatives to Windows or Mac-based productivity programs (LibreOffice is very good), and there are some available across all three OSs, but so much that I take for granted on Windows (music recording, website development, gadget control, finance) just isn't catered for on Ubuntu - I'll add 'yet' in the hope that it may be! And installation of drivers for proprietry hardware (see the NVidia issues above!) is still not for novices. So, for me, the jury's out...
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but so much that I take for granted on Windows (music recording, website development, gadget control, finance) just isn't catered for on Ubuntu
I'm sure they do exist, but maybe they're not included in the install; you have to download them yourself.
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I have my fair share of kicking the box to get the NVidia drivers to work with my dual screen set up. But I now know it and it doesn't take that long to fix if it should fall over.
Give Quanta Plus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanta_Plus) a go if you are playing around with HTML and PHP, I'm sure that it does much more than what I use it for.
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but so much that I take for granted on Windows (music recording, website development, gadget control, finance) just isn't catered for on Ubuntu
I'm sure they do exist, but maybe they're not included in the install; you have to download them yourself.
Perhaps they are, but I haven't found them - I have looked. However, I've gotten used to the way certain programs work and I've paid for certain functionalities and support which are unlikely (though not impossible) to be replicated in open-source free software. For instance, show me a free music recording program to equal Cubase 6 (or Reason or ProTools or even GarageBand!) in any OS? There are a few worthy free ones around under Windows, but they fall well short of the full-fat stuff. I don't need or want £500 programs for everything I do, but I've a fair few that cost up to £100 that are much, much better than anything I've seen for free. But I'm very willing to be proved wrong!
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For instance, show me a free music recording program to equal Cubase 6 (or Reason or ProTools or even GarageBand!) in any OS?
google: cubase linux equivalent
Rosegarden (part of the AGNULA project)?
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Audacity plus Rosegarden is what I use.
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I haven't found them - I have looked.
Most modern distro CDs are already at their limit and usually highly compressed so the devs just include what they think is important.Searching for other applications is simple with Google and Synaptic. There are also distros that specialise in multimedia www.musix.org.ar/en/index.html www.apodio.org/ dyne:bolic (http://dynebolic.org/) are just a few from a search on Distrowatch, I haven't used them they may well be crap but may be worth a look, they are live disks so don't need installing.
-
Thanks, I'll look at all of those!
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There's also Dynebolic (http://dynebolic.org/) which is meant to be a livecd geared towards multimedia production.
-
Audacity plus Rosegarden is what I use.
There's also Ardour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardour_%28audio_processor%29) which seems to get favourable comments.
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Ubuntu how poor?
Just reinstalled lubuntu and due to the internet crasing now it won't update. Just tells me an error and no way of clearing it.
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Ah the latest ubuntu (natty) doesn't have the repositories yet
Amazingly shite
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It works perfectly for me. I dropped it onto a netbook last night with no drama at all, in no time at all
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It works perfectly for me. I dropped it onto a netbook last night with no drama at all, in no time at all
To be fair though, this is the Linux paradigm: when it works, it works; when it doesn't, it truly and spectacularly doesn't.
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It works perfectly for me. I dropped it onto a netbook last night with no drama at all, in no time at all
To be fair though, this is the Linux paradigm: when it works, it works; when it doesn't, it truly and spectacularly doesn't.
No OS is without its problems though. I can boot this box into windows so the peeps can play a game or 2. Problem is, there's no sound ??? The driver just refuses to load and ICBA to spend the hours[1] (yes, hours) to do a full re-install.
[1] A Linux distro typically installs in about 15 mins.
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To be fair though, I have never known Ubuntu not to work in almost ten years of using Linux :thumbsup: I am not a power user or like the command line or even want to understand such things :facepalm:
Therefore, excepting the stated problems with the latest version, in fairness, many of the issues mentioned in this thread seem to have been caused by the user not the OS.
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Ah issue resolved and not with sudo apt-get either.
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Now the not allowing a download of open office but ibra office is a git.
-
Have found fedora to be better t seeing drives and moving data around, better than the ubuntu clones
-
Open Office is already waiting in the Synaptic Package Manager but is also part of the Ubuntu OS when installed ;)
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Now the not allowing a download of open office but ibra office is a git.
L:ibra Office is Open Office. When Oracle bought Sun who had been backing Open Office development and hosting all the servers etc as well as providing some staff to work on it they suddenly decided it wasn't the way they wanted to do things. They pissed off so many of the developers and wanted to add restrictive licensing that 99% of them upped stacks and forker the project creating Libre Office. Basically at the point where they forked Libre Office was 99.9% identical to Open Office. Now all the development is on Libre Office hence why all the distributions are changing to it. Open Office is a dead duck.
-
Libre Office has already improved quite a way beyond where Open Office was - you're not disadvantaged in any way by making the switch.
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I would have liked to have been asked or explained as that was happening not that it happened as done.
So how come fedora seems to make drives accessible than ubuntu does? Genuinely wondering as its great for getting data off dying drives
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Open Office is a dead duck.
not quite What the heck is happening with OpenOffice? (UPDATE) | ZDNet (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/what-the-heck-is-happening-with-openoffice-update/9025)
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May be the projects will converge again then.
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So how come fedora seems to make drives accessible than ubuntu does? Genuinely wondering as its great for getting data off dying drives
I am not sure waht you mean by this.
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Accessing data on faulty, dieing drives. Transfer of data between drives.
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Ok, a month or so down the line I have 10.10 (Maverick) installed on two laptops - the older one a 1997 HP Pavilion 4120s (256mb RAM, 1.8Ghz Celeron, not sure about the graphics), the newer a 2005 Sony Vaio VGN-S5XP (2Gb RAM, 2.0GHz Pentium M, 256mb Nvidia GeForce Go6400). The HP struggles a bit sometimes, especially with anything graphics-intensive, but I have it set to full graphics effects so that's probably not surprising! Other than that, both these installations work very well and are generally a pleasure to use. Only the lack of certain software equivalents (particularly for website authoring), coupled with the fact I have a lot invested in Windows, would prevent me from making the change....
Except - my other laptop, a 2010 Dell Studio XPS 1340 (4Gb RAM, 2.67Ghz Pentium Core 2 Duo P9600, Nvidia Go210 (512mb) & Go9400M (128mb) in hybrid SLI config) is running Win7Pro 64bit and Natty 11.04 64bit in a dual-boot config. Neither Win 7 nor Natty are entirely comfortable with this; both have boot issues on occasions - I have to run the Windows Boot Repair about once a week, and Natty just gives me a screen of random blocks of black & white when it decides not to play. After some thought, I've decided I don't really like Unity. It gives me no new capability, and often makes it more difficult than it needs to be to access what's on the computer. It also looks a bit '1980s Amstrad'! - the Gnome desktop on Maverick, especially when used with Docky, gives a much cleaner and more intuitive experience. It's not quite as clear as either Win7 or OSX, though, and I haven't found a skin that significantly improves on the native one. And I don't like the orange/purple thing!
So, I'd say 10.10 is a good effort and is perfectly usable. 11.04 is still very much a work in progress and is really only for early adopters. Unity has potential, but too much of it is different just for the sake of being different, not because it makes stuff easier. Some of the open-source programs available are very good indeed, and many Win or Mac applications have a worthwhile alternative on Linux - but WYSIWYG web authoring isn't one of them!
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I've decided I don't really like Unity. It gives me no new capability, and often makes it more difficult than it needs to be to access what's on the computer.
You may like Mint instead (which is what I run). AFAIK, the Mint developer(s) will continue with the Gnome interface. Mint is based on Ubuntu so it wouldn't be much of a change, much less so than, for example, Fedora.
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Tim try Kompozer (http://www.kompozer.net/) for WYSIWYG web authoring on Linux.
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I've decided I don't really like Unity. It gives me no new capability, and often makes it more difficult than it needs to be to access what's on the computer.
You may like Mint instead (which is what I run). AFAIK, the Mint developer(s) will continue with the Gnome interface. Mint is based on Ubuntu so it wouldn't be much of a change, much less so than, for example, Fedora.
I think Gnome 3 will run on 10.10 eventually, but I might have a look at Mint out of interest - that's all that any of this is about for me anyway!
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Tim try Kompozer (http://www.kompozer.net/) for WYSIWYG web authoring on Linux.
It's a bit basic compared to WebPlus X4, which is my program of choice. Sadly, Serif products won't run via Wine!
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Tim try Kompozer (http://www.kompozer.net/) for WYSIWYG web authoring on Linux.
It's a bit basic compared to WebPlus X4, which is my program of choice.
True.
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I've decided I don't really like Unity. It gives me no new capability, and often makes it more difficult than it needs to be to access what's on the computer.
You may like Mint instead (which is what I run). AFAIK, the Mint developer(s) will continue with the Gnome interface. Mint is based on Ubuntu so it wouldn't be much of a change, much less so than, for example, Fedora.
I have Mint 11 on my laptop and it's great.
Back to Ubuntu Netbook Edition 10.04 on the EeePC though - 11.04 is THE SUCK in a number of ways, even with the classic interface reinstated. Wireless is flakey, it doesn't like it when I log off one user and change to another, it's slow to boot, uck. 10.04NE is superb, however.
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10.04NE is superb
I agree. I have it on my Samsung netbook. Even though the wireless chip is apparently not supported someone issued a re-patched kernel which gets round the problem (and some other minor compatibility issues).
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Despite my relatively enthusiastic post about Ubuntu above, I have discovered that it's just not possible to play commercial movie DVDs in either VLC or Movie Player (in either Maverick or Natty) despite having Ubuntu Restricted extras, Medibuntu, and libdvdcss2 installed/enabled. Non-movie DVDs are ok, but not retail, Region 2 legal, big-screen flicks. Pants.
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Do the DVDs work on Windows? I haven't bothered with DVDs for years, but I remember reading something about having to set the region of the drive.
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I have discovered that it's just not possible to play commercial movie DVDs in either VLC or Movie Player
They work fine for me with VLC, check you also have libdvdread4 installed. I have just checked a Harry Potter dvd and noticed there is an error with VLC if you try to open disc from the media menu but works fine if you open using file from the same menu.
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Do the DVDs work on Windows? I haven't bothered with DVDs for years, but I remember reading something about having to set the region of the drive.
Yes, they're fine on Windows - one of the commuters is dual-boot. The Win partition plays Region 2 or region-free discs, the Natty partition plays neither. All the DVDs tried play perfectly in other players and, as I said, the computers will play non-movie DVDs. This is a permissions issue, not hard- or firmware.
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I have discovered that it's just not possible to play commercial movie DVDs in either VLC or Movie Player
They work fine for me with VLC, check you also have libdvdread4 installed. I have just checked a Harry Potter dvd and noticed there is an error with VLC if you try to open disc from the media menu but works fine if you open using file from the same menu.
I've tried installing libdvdread4 too, though it seems that libdvdcss2 overrides it. It doesn't work. Looking around the interweb, this does seem to be a prevalent problem witha lot of people scratching around in the dark. It should be simple to resolve but, for some reason it's not. Maybe DVD playback isn't a serous enough use of Linux to concern the geekery? It's issues like this that will keep Linux a fringe player, amusing but useless in the real world.
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I've tried installing libdvdread4 too, though it seems that libdvdcss2 overrides it. It doesn't work.
From the libdvd4 description
"libdvdread provides the functionality that is required to access many DVDs. It
parses IFO files, reads NAV-blocks, and performs CSS authentication and
descrambling.
libdvdread probes for libdvdcss at runtime and if found, will use it to
decrypt sections of the DVD as necessary. libdvdcss needs to be installed"
As you said upthread it may also be a permissions issue you could check you are in the cdrom and plugdev groups. I think part of the problem is the way cd and dvds are mounted has recently changed.
To add yourself to a group "sudo adduser yourusername group" you may need to reboot for this change to take effect.
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Somehow, I've sorted one of the Maverick computers. I have no idea how! It will now play Region 2 commercial movie DVDs, with sound, via VLC. The other Maverick computer (an old HP) has a problem with its ATI driver and I can't get it to stay running long enough to have a fighting chance of sorting any DVD issues! The Win7/Natty dual-boot machine is a little further forward, but not much - it'll play some Region 2 disks but with stuttering action, a blue cast and no sound. The same drive when used by the Win7 partition produces stunning colour, sound, motion and definition, so it ain't the hardware. It doesn't seem to be permissions either (checked - thanks inc!), so is it possibly a problem with the Ubuntu 64-bit DVD drivers, or with VLC running on a 64-bit OS?
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Looking at adding repositories so I have access to more programs like Libra office and vlc player.
which ones would you recommend.
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Currently I'm running Ubuntu 11.04, and getting daily nags about upgrading to 11.10 from the Ubuntu Update Manager. >:( Not too keen on 11.10 as I prefer a clean desktop like Gnome, rather than telly tubbie style Unity (big shiny icons galore - no thanks.) I think I've managed to break some of the dependencies in ubuntu, so I'd a reinstall sometime in future.
So I'm pondering where to go next linux wise. I did download OpenSuse 11.4 yesterday, the 4GB DVD version, however not sure about Suse.
Any other suggestions? I do fancy a change from ubuntu style linuxes.
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why are you unsure about SuSE?
I've been installing and managing SuSE systems for years - on some pretty powerful systems in UK academia and industry.
I use it at home and at work on desktops just fine.
Install it, use it, enjoy.
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Any other suggestions? I do fancy a change from ubuntu style linuxes.
Not sure what you mean by Ubuntu style. It sounds like you are talking about the desktop. Every version of Linux is very similar and the desktop can be simply changed to suit your needs. There is some info here http://xwinman.org about some other alternatives. The advantage of Linux is you can install as many DE or WM as you want and try them all, just select which one from the menu at login. When your pc is running just log out and back in again with a diferent DE or WM no need to reboot.
This list looks more up to date www.linuxsoft.cz/en/sw_list.php?id_kategory=5
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SUSE is very good I've used it quite a bit too. Good support forums as well. It's like Ubuntu in that it will just install everything you need and just work (in the main there are always exceptions).
Ubuntu is very good in that it's extremely easy to install and they have done wonders in UI refinement for Linux making everything look the same and play nice together. They have really made other distributions raise their game (though SUSE were always pretty good at this too).
If your not interested in fiddling around and just want an easy to maintain system that works and is stable Ubuntu and SUSE are probably the two best desktop distributions. SUSE has more corporate type support being owned by Novell for ages.
If your happy to fiddle then there are loads of distributions that you might like all with there own pros and cons. This is a good place to start:
Distrowatch (http://distrowatch.com/)
I've switched to Arch recently and really like it. It's a rolling distribution, that is it doesn't have a yearly or six month release cycle instead packages are undated as new versions are released. They don't get altered or themed to match Arch either they are exactly is if you downloaded the sources from whoever wrote them and compiled them yourself.
Takes longer to install as it doest install an entire running system for you just a very basic command line with network support then you install what you need bit by bit. Maybe an hour or two to get a basic gui system up an running.
It does mean you end up with no bloat and a very fast system though especially if you choose a light weight WM such as XFCE or Openbox. It's pretty snappy with KDE or Gnome 3 as well definitely snappier than Ubuntu.
I wouldn't use Arch for a server though as it's two bleeding edge, stick to Debian (preferred), SuSE, Centos or Redhat.
My current Arch 64 desktop running XFCE - clean
(http://pictures.pcolbeck.fastmail.fm/Screenshots/screen-xfce-clean-web.png) (http://pictures.pcolbeck.fastmail.fm/Screenshots/screen-xfce-clean.png)
My current Arch 64 desktop running XFCE - dirty
(http://pictures.pcolbeck.fastmail.fm/Screenshots/screen-xfce-dirty-web.png) (http://pictures.pcolbeck.fastmail.fm/Screenshots/screen-xfce-dirty.png)
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The ubuntu unity is growing on me, though I have made the big icons smaller. I tried the 11.10 beta and it fell over on login just showed me a black screen and then back to the login screen again. Though I'm now using the final version of 11.10 and it is rock solid.
You can install Gnome 3 on 11.10 : http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/10/gnome-shell-ubuntu-11-10-guide/
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How would i run xfce with fedora 15?
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I don't use fedora but what about this ? http://www.linuxreaders.com/2011/08/08/fedora-15-howto-switch-to-xfce/
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Thanks for the replies. By "Ubuntu style linuxes" I mean distros similar to or derived from Ubuntu.
I did play with Gentoo a few years ago, it did make a fast system, but the faff factor of compiling everything from source grew a bit tiresome!
However midway through college term with essays piling up probably isn't the best time to do an OS change of my desktop PC! , so I'll probably stick with Ubuntu 11.04 for the moment! :)
pcolbeck, XFCE does look rather nice, so I might try dabbling with that on my current Ubuntu 11.04 install. :)
-- edit -- Managed to EPIC FAIL the installation of xubuntu desktop on ubuntu 11.04 install, so burning a disk of xubuntu 11.10, then install it this evening.... *ubuntu isn't all that bad, certainly seem sensible to stick with what I'm familiar with. :)
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How would i run xfce with fedora 15?
Just install the right packages. In Linux, the GUI is not an integral part of the OS; you can have as many different window managers installed as you like and switch between them. There are several ways to change which window manager is run but the simplest, in Fedora, is to make sure the switchdesk-gui package is installed and then run "switchdesk xfce" from the command line.
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pcolbeck, XFCE does look rather nice, so I might try dabbling with that on my current Ubuntu 11.04 install. :)
sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop
It wont look like mine though as Ubunto have themed it to look as near their normal standard Gnome look as possible.
You can change that though. I am using the Greybird GTK and XFCE theme with Faenza Cupurtino Icons. There is probably and Ubuntu package for these.
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How would i run xfce with fedora 15?
The easiest way, if you're installing from scratch, is to install from the XFCE spin (4th on the list here (http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora-options)).
I've been running XFCE on Fedora since KDE became too bloated to run happily on 5 year old hardware.
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Fettled Linux Mint Debian Edition onto my machine yesterday morning. http://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php (http://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php)
Rather braw it is too, and since it is a rolling upgrade system no need to worry about 6 month release cycles.
:D
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Fettled Linux Mint Debian Edition onto my machine yesterday morning. http://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php (http://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php)
Rather braw it is too, and since it is a rolling upgrade system no need to worry about 6 month release cycles.
:D
I'm thinking of LMDE for my next upgrade. Any problems to report?
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Fettled Linux Mint Debian Edition onto my machine yesterday morning. http://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php (http://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php)
Rather braw it is too, and since it is a rolling upgrade system no need to worry about 6 month release cycles.
:D
I'm thinking of LMDE for my next upgrade. Any problems to report?
No major problems to report so far! :)
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I have installed Lubuntu on our little HP 110 and it is running just fine. Though the look is a wee bit ugly but since it is pretty much only going to be used for surfing I'm happy.
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I have installed Lubuntu on our little HP 110 and it is running just fine. Though the look is a wee bit ugly but since it is pretty much only going to be used for surfing I'm happy.
You can change the look to almost anything you fancy.
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Yup I have changed some colours and the horrid mouse pointers.
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Take a look over at gnome-look.org for inspiration.
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You know I'm going to be up for hours now don't you :)
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Fettled Linux Mint Debian Edition onto my machine yesterday morning. http://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php (http://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php)
Rather braw it is too, and since it is a rolling upgrade system no need to worry about 6 month release cycles.
:D
I'm thinking of LMDE for my next upgrade. Any problems to report?
No major problems to report so far! :)
However, major dependency issues seem to be rearing their ugly head - Linux Mint Debian Edition doesn't have the required library versions for digikam 2.4.1 which has just been released....,. >:(
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However, major dependency issues seem to be rearing their ugly head - Linux Mint Debian Edition doesn't have the required library versions for digikam 2.4.1 which has just been released....,. >:(
There are no dependency issues, Digikam http://packages.qa.debian.org/d/digikam.html has only just gone into experimental, it will be ready when it is ready. You could of course just enable the experimental repo and take a chance but I doubt lt it would be worthwhile for a few bug fixes.
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If you want to use the latest versions of software then you need to look at a rolling release distribution rather than a cyclical one. Cyclical ones always have problems with up to date software its the nature of the beast, they are designed to freeze the application and library versions at the point of release and nothing should change bar security and bug fixes until the next release of the whole distribution (ie 6 months for Ubuntu several years for Debian etc). This is a good thing as it keeps things stable.
Rolling releases are different in that they upgrade to new software and libraries as they are released. This is ace if you want to stay cutting edge with your apps but may break things occasionally. You never just hit update on a rolling release as you would with say Ubuntu as things may get weird, you need to take a look at the website and release notes before accepting any updates. Take a look at Arch Linux which is a rolling release distribution or the rolling release version of SuSE. Personally I like Arch but YMMV. Note if my livelyhood depended on the PC working i would stick to a good cyclical release distro.
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Now running Linux Mint 12 :thumbsup:
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"Clones are unstable."
That's hilarious. I spent years playing with Gentoo. Custom built from the ground up to suit my hardware perfectly. Hmm... crashed more often than Ubuntu.
Oh - and Ubuntu crashes waaaay less often than Windows - and that's good enough for me.
I'm not a Code Weanie. I actually want to use my PC for useful stuff. Ubuntu is fine.
I never have tried Ubuntu, or ay other Debian-based distro. (one of the few gaps in my historical linux coverage).
My Gentoo is rock stable, though.
True, it's a bit scary when a major upgrade (e.g. of gnome or KDE) comes in, and even scarier when you put off doing that upgrade because of OTHER STUFFSTM and another couple of major upgrades sneak in, but by and large, the portage system has proved better (MUCH more so) than, certainly, rpm at resolving dependency issue in upgrades. I gave up on older RedHat, Mandrake/Mandriva and SuSE for reasons of rpm dependency hell. No idea how ubuntu's package management (.debs ? via apt?) compares with rpm though.
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RPM used to be crap at resolving dependencies. With SuSE its not too bad these days if you use their YAST frontend. Don't know about Redhat as I haven't used it in years.
Debian based distros (Ubuntu, Mint etc) don't have dependency issues as the deb format is designed to list the dependencies within the deb then the tools you use to install a deb file (eg apt) automatically install any debs that are dependencies. It even suggests packages that are not strictly speaking necessary but might be useful, for example if you install say Gimp it will suggest you also might want to install gimp-print and some other gimp add on packages and if you say OK it will download and install these for you too.
Deb is the best packaging system I have found. Arch's pacman is a pretty good as well. Never tried Gentoo so I cant comment on portage/
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No idea how ubuntu's package management (.debs ? via apt?) compares with rpm though.
The Debian package management system APT is probably the best for managing dependencies. Most Ubuntu users just use the Synaptic GUI and miss out on some useful dpkg functions like a simulated install or upgrade for example, where it will warn of any problems before committing. Like all systems it can be broken, using poorly packaged third party applications and using debs from different sources eg stable, testing, sid, experimental and the various Ubuntu and it's derivatives will usually cause problems eventually.
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Now running Linux Mint 12 :thumbsup:
mutter mutter, turning on pc after suspend = corrupted menus in mint 12 >:(
-- edit -- now relaxing in comfy Xubuntu 11.10 :thumbsup:
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For resurrecting notebooks and old PCs, I would recommend Joli OS. Linux based, simple interfaces and it just sort of works. Flies along on a Samsung NC10. Also allows you to install directly from within windows so no faffing around burning disks....
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Has anyone else upgraded to Ubuntu 11.10 and had problems? I upgraded from a fully-functional 11.04 and now have no network connections - it'll see wifi, Ethernet and Bluetooth devices, but it won't connect. On top of that, the cursor freezes from time to time. The upgrade was downloaded and installed through the upgrade centre, and no extraneous stuff was occurring at the time. Just to rulke out the hardware, I'm transmitting this on the same computer's Win7 installation via wifi, with my iPhone connected via Bluetooth.
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I upgraded my Netbook to 11.10 a few months ago, and haven't had any major problems. Have you installed all the updates? Network Manager has always seemed slightly unstable on my Fedora installation- whenever it fails I use wicd instead (comes as a daemon and a graphical client, can't remember what the Ubuntu package names are). It's not as complete as NetworkManager, but for WiFi it's a lot simpler.
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Without any network connection, updates aren't possible! I downloaded a new ISO image last night (on Win7); hopefully that version will include whatever updates are relevant. But (as when I upgraded) I 'll probably lose the various mods I've made to make it look nice!
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And why does Ubuntu trash the Windows bootup so I have to run Windows Startup Repair after every second or third time I run Ubuntu? Grrrr!!!
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And why does Ubuntu trash the Windows bootup so I have to run Windows Startup Repair after every second or third time I run Ubuntu? Grrrr!!!
It shouldn't. It should recognise Windows is their and give you a menu to choose Windows or Ubuntu on boot. Windows on the other hand never asks and will always trash your Linux boot.
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I get the menu on boot up. Linux will always start fine (and only then hang up). Every third boot of Windows after I've had Linux up, Windows objects and requires Startup Repair. It did this with 10.10 and 11.04 too.
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An interesting post from a well know UK Ubuntu dev www.jonobacon.org/2011/12/21/quality-in-ubuntu/ It seems they are finally publicly acknowledging they have got some problems
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Interesting read :thumbsup:
Can you imagine M$ being so open and honest - never ???
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Has anyone else upgraded to Ubuntu 11.10 and had problems? I upgraded from a fully-functional 11.04 and now have no network connections - it'll see wifi, Ethernet and Bluetooth devices, but it won't connect. On top of that, the cursor freezes from time to time. The upgrade was downloaded and installed through the upgrade centre, and no extraneous stuff was occurring at the time. Just to rulke out the hardware, I'm transmitting this on the same computer's Win7 installation via wifi, with my iPhone connected via Bluetooth.
Just tried another 11.10 download upgrade on top of a fully-working but entirely clean (no extra apps) and brand new installation of 11.04. Again, no network capability - not even an icon or access to the network dialogue. The upgrade subsequently failed, but there is no rollback to 11.04.
All I can say is - avoid 11.10 until you have evidence Canonical have got it working properly. Right now, it's a heap of shit that makes Vista look like a well-realised and delivered OS!!!
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Ubuntu usually provide a LiveUSB version of their releases- next time I'd recommend trying it first :)
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From what I read around the net, 11.10 is a turkey whichever way you install it.
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I must be one of the exceptions then :). LiveUSB worked fine, installed fine, runs fine. OTOH Fedora 16 is proving to be a real PITA, though admittedly I'm trying to get it running on older hardware.
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My 2 11.10 installs were fine. One, my desktop, was an update. My netbook was a clean install. I've since replaced it on the netbook with Crunchbang.
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Funnily enough, I've finally got it working - the laptop installation, that is. I managed to connect to a very strong and fast wifi network here in Japan before Ubuntu froze up, and got a huuuuge update installed. All now seems well, though I'm still a bit pissed off by the difficulties of getting it there. I'm also not convinced at all by Unity, which still seems an exercise in difference for difference's sake and is obviously not guided by intuitive usability! The new Software Centre is a big improvement, and is very (VERY) similar to the Apple App Store for OSX devices. The lack of customising options in Unity is a real letdown (why must the dock be on the left?), and the Dash Home page is a very clunky way of getting to apps.
I'm now using Win 7 Pro 64-bit, Win 8 Dev, Mac OSX Snow Leopard, Ubuntu 11.10 and 10.10 and iOS5 on a regular basis on my collection of gadgets (i4S, iPad2, iMac with Paralleled Win7 VM, Sony Vaio and Dell Studio XPS). in this group, Ubuntu 11.10 comes a solid last! Win7 and OSX are both excellent, and each has strengths the other lacks. iOS5 is a delight until you need to use it like a computer, when the lack of discreet file storage is a real pain. But it's fascinating to have so many options!
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Nah, I don't like Unity either... but that's another story.
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Nah, I don't like Unity either... but that's another story.
I haven't used unity yet, I'm running 10.04, but I have looked at it and I wasn't impressed, I think a lot of people have tried it and gone back to Gnome. I've been on Ubuntu for 3 or 4 years, started with 8.10 and stuck on 10.04, its been good most of the time and I like it.
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I have just installed 11.10 on a laptop and the interface seems a lot more useable than in 11.04. The sidebar seems to slide in and out a lot more predictably and responsively.
I'm sticking to 10.04 notebook edition on the Eee PC though.
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I have just installed 11.10 on a laptop and the interface seems a lot more useable than in 11.04. The sidebar seems to slide in and out a lot more predictably and responsively.
I'm sticking to 10.04 notebook edition on the Eee PC though.
I like 10.04, when 12.04 comes out I'll put a copy on disc and if the computer goes tits up I'll move to 12.04, mean while I'm happy on 10.04.
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For resurrecting notebooks and old PCs, I would recommend Joli OS. Linux based, simple interfaces and it just sort of works. Flies along on a Samsung NC10. Also allows you to install directly from within windows so no faffing around burning disks....
Thanks for this - my poverty-spec ASUS seems to be able to run Joli1.2. I've tried the LiveUSB, and it's a little odd. Couple of Qs for you:
- Were you able to access 'local storage'* using LiveUSB?
- Do you have any issues with Wireless strength? My WiFi never drops below "90%" on the Asus, but running Joli it fluctuated around 40-50%. I thought this stuff was handled at a lower level than the OS, so this is surprising, but also worrying.
Matt
*I know this will actually be stored in RAM (not permanent storage), but I'd like to see what the interface looks like before a full install
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Hi Matt
You can access the local storage on the hard drive (or plugged in USB drives) quite easily. To the left of the search bar on the main desktop there is are a number of icons, one of which is a folder. Clicking on this brings up a display of the various folders/drives, and if you select a folder in this display then choosing "Open" in the bottom RHS opens up a Linux file manager type window to allow you full movement through the drives. It works on my normal install, so presume it would be the same for a Live USB.
With regards the wifi strength; it is noticably lower than I would have thought (never really noticed before, as it just works) at c50%, whereas my work laptop running Xp says the signal is "Very Good". Whilst there is flagged a difference; I haven't really noticed it in day to day use. The laptop stays in one place, though so not a major issue for me.
Further comments to add are that still happy with it, but would only recommend for basic stuff. Lots of windows open at the same time (these often being different skins of the Chromium browser) can cause things to drag as not enough memory available. This may be specific to my machine, but worth bearing in mind.
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My Aspire One AA150 is now very happily running Joli OS, and I've come to really quite like it. I had a bit of trauma working out how to add locally held applications (KMyMoney and PySol) but got there in the end (don't ask how, I don't think I could replicate it now I've had a sleep).
I bought a cheap(ish) refurb'd Aspire One 512 off Ebay to run as a back-up Windows machine for the odd programs that I can't use Linux for - mainly Adobe Digital Editions and for my electricity monitoring device (and no, I can't get my head around Wine or VirtualBox). The new AspireOne was so good (I suspect it was actually new) that it's now got quad booting to JoliOS, Windows XP, Linux Mint, and Bhodi Linux. (all except Windows loaded from Live USB's created in NetUBootin)
I dumped Ubuntu for Mint, but became disolusioned with their crippled browser (search engine and extension install issues) so use Bhodi much more - very pretty, and is quite fast. My only concern with Bhodi Linux is the longer term support of it. My issue with Ubuntu was partly around the desktop and partly around speed on the older netbook (I ended up using LXDE which helped - but Joli OS was the answer). I decided not to even go with Ubuntu ion the new netbook, and give Mint & Bhodi a try, just because I could (TM).
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Having bigged up Joli OS, this morning I ordered an Asus Transformer tablet, then this pm the Joli OS crashed and burned. I cannot get beyond the grub loader. XP boots OK, but Joli OS gives an error message too quick to see and then leaves a DOS type "grub>" command line.
Some investigation needed, but a bit miffed that it all died suddenly. It was almost as if it new the replacement was on its way....
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Is anyone running 11.10 on a tablet? How does it work?
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If you change the keyboard and mouse settings on the Unity desktop, how on earth do you apply them? It is the least user-friendly GUI I think I've ever seen.
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If you change the keyboard and mouse settings on the Unity desktop, how on earth do you apply them? It is the least user-friendly GUI I think I've ever seen.
Aren't the settings applied instantly?
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Apparently they're not applied at all. And this is a live USB, not a live CD. It does remember other stuff like browser history.
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Is anyone running 11.10 on a tablet? How does it work?
Well, I can run it on my iPad via Splashtop and the Ubuntu VM on my iMac! How does it work? Just as impenetrably as it does on anything else!
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I never have tried Ubuntu, or ay other Debian-based distro. (one of the few gaps in my historical linux coverage).
Significant gap, then.
My Gentoo is rock stable, though.
True, it's a bit scary when a major upgrade (e.g. of gnome or KDE) comes in, and even scarier when you put off doing that upgrade because of OTHER STUFFSTM and another couple of major upgrades sneak in, but by and large, the portage system has proved better (MUCH more so) than, certainly, rpm at resolving dependency issue in upgrades. I gave up on older RedHat, Mandrake/Mandriva and SuSE for reasons of rpm dependency hell. No idea how ubuntu's package management (.debs ? via apt?) compares with rpm though.
RPM dependency problems are mostly in the past, now that Yum, Apt-RPM and similar tools are available. The quality of many packages for Red Hat and Fedora is questionable, but that's another story.
If you have never tried a Debian-based distro, then you may be in for a shock if you ever do. While APT blazed a trail for sensible package management, at least as important are the configuration management tools (debconf and friends). Gentoo's equivalents are still neolithic in comparison, with upgrades still often needing a bunch of manual fixing of config files.
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RPM used to be crap at resolving dependencies. With SuSE its not too bad these days if you use their YAST frontend. Don't know about Redhat as I haven't used it in years.
Debian based distros (Ubuntu, Mint etc) don't have dependency issues as the deb format is designed to list the dependencies within the deb then the tools you use to install a deb file (eg apt) automatically install any debs that are dependencies. It even suggests packages that are not strictly speaking necessary but might be useful, for example if you install say Gimp it will suggest you also might want to install gimp-print and some other gimp add on packages and if you say OK it will download and install these for you too.
Deb is the best packaging system I have found. Arch's pacman is a pretty good as well. Never tried Gentoo so I cant comment on portage/
RPM has also always listed dependencies. You're trying to compare RPM with APT, when it's actually an equivalent to the dpkg tools. The problem used to be that Red Hat and derivatives simply had no equivalent tool to APT. This is no longer the case. Where Debian does still have an edge, though, is in the quality and consistency of the packaging (there are some shockingly poor packages in the RH/Fedora core, for example), the configuration management (debconf and co) and the stable repository. This is the plus side of Debian being a loose confederation of thousands of smelly hippies all shouting at each other. There are downsides...
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It looks like Ubuntu's going to abandon the mouse clicking menu windows system altogether.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16731071 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16731071)
Ubuntu swaps application menus for HUD control system
The Ubuntu operating system is to replace its application menus with a "head-up display" (HUD) box.
Users control the HUD interface by typing in the command they want carried out.
Developers of the Linux-based software say they will initially offer the HUD as an option, allowing users to "hide" their menu bars.
They say that using the HUD is faster than "mousing through a menu" and makes applications feel more powerful.
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I installed 12.04 (32bit workstation version) over the top of an earlier version (10.4). Now I can't copy the USERS folders from any VISTA/Win7 system. "Too many symbolic links".
Is it 12.04, or is it this hardware, or is is just me?? Whatever it is, its very frustrating!
Dave
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I'm loving xubuntu 12.04! :thumbsup:
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"Too many symbolic links".
Is that the complete error message?
Is the error really "Too many levels of symbolic links"? If so then the problem is two symbolic links that point to each other:
$ ln -s $PWD/x1 x2
$ ln -s $PWD/x2 x1
$ ls x1
ls: cannot access x1: Too many levels of symbolic links