Animal cruelty and child abuse all at the same time?

[Charlotte]

What do you think?

[clifftaylor]

That's not a bull, it's a medium sized dog.
I think his socks may be actionable under EU law, as well.

[Zoidburg]

"No-one is forcing them to watch bullfights or to keep informed about them. It's as if I told a boy who does motocross not to do it, it's very bothersome."

 

[Gus]

 

[nutkin]

Vile.

[Sergeant Pluck]

A visit to Mr Stew for his parents, methinks.

Then the kid can be barred at least he is old enough to have some conception of what he is doing.

I find it staggering that in this day and age there are still thousands of people worldwide that find this barbarity entertaining, I just can't get my head around it.

The "bulls" look about the size of calves to me.

[Tiger]

Actually I think bulfighting is an honest and very appropriate activity. It celebrates the killing of animals and the passion of the carnivore. Unlike the ghastly horror of the hidden abbatoir - we get to see the misery and pain of the death of a magnificent animal that will become beef and chorizos.
I think all us meat eaters should be forced to watch bullfighting and cheer it on if we want to have a steak. It is all about the underlying reality of what it means to be a human and to predate other species.
I have attended many bullfights and I think they are magnificent spectacles - undeniably cruel but also simply about human truth. Certainly nowhere near as vile as the horror of intensive meat farming and its subsequent mass mechanisation of death.
I am a carnivore. I don't need to be - I could eat veg but I like meat - so it is entertainment. I would be a matador if I could and kill my own. I enjoy fishing and eating too. 
The Spanish and Latinos who follow the correa have an honest appreciation of the taking of life as an inherent part of their fooad and sentertainment culture. I prefer that to the sentimental denial of those who would pretend our meat arrives without pain and misery. he younger we learn this the better. 
I wonder how many of our burger stuffing obese 'animal loving' kids would be prepared to go out and face the beef and kill it. Good kid.

[Sergeant Pluck]

I see it as deliberately prolonged torture of an animal for entertainment purposes.

It is all about the underlying reality of what it means to be a human and to predate other species

Is it? From what I know of bullfighting, it seems as far removed from hunting and killing an animal for food as what goes on in an abattoir. I think to excuse what happens in bullfighting by suggesting it somehow brings us closer to our natural state, or that it gives us any insight into the reality of killing animals for food, is just not correct.

[rae]

I wonder how many of our burger stuffing obese 'animal loving' kids would be prepared to go out and face the beef and kill it. Good kid.   

I would have no problem shooting a cow with an appropriate rifle (pretty big I think, never really thought about shooting cows), skinning it, butchering it and then cooking it.    It would change from happy cow to dead cow within a second or two, about as painlessly as can be done. 

I don't see bullfighting as anything other than tormenting a deliberately injured animal for no good reason.

[spesh]

I don't see bullfighting as anything other than tormenting a deliberately injured animal for no good reason.

Quite.

If it was - to quote Tom Lehrer - merely "a lone man facing single-handedly a half ton of angry pot roast" then there might be a reasonable chance of the matador not leaving the arena under his own steam, but when he's got the picadors and banderilleros to stick the bull full of barbs first, there's no way that it can be described as a fair contest.

[Gandalf]

We are so good at pointing the finger at johnny foreigner and his appalling treatment of animals this country aren't we?

Whilst I could not ever condone so called 'bullfighting' (not much of a fight when the bull is crippled by drugs or some other means before the vile spectacle even begins) I can't see how the suffering involved is any worse that the prolonged misery of say a dairy cow.

[Pancho]

If you've ever worked in a modern UK or EU abbatoir (I have), you would regard bull fighting, halal slaughter and other traditional methods of killing as the height of humanity.

If you moan about this sort of thing - to the extend of actually caring enough to do anything - then never buy meat from a supermarket again.

[Sergeant Pluck]

I don't think it is about "Johnny Foreigner" nor is it about comparing bullfighting to other forms of mistreatment of animals. I appreciate there are myriad other forms of cruelty, some of which we participate in. The question in the OP asks what we think of bullfighting itself.

[bobb]

We are so good at pointing the finger at johnny foreigner and his appalling treatment of animals this country aren't we?

We're also pretty good at pointing at ourselves. Many people felt that fox hunting was barbaric and many people are shocked when they see footage of intensely farmed livestock on the telly and then insist on buying free range or even going veggie.

The original vibe of this thread was bullfighting. And bullfighting happens in foreign countries....

[Charlotte]

I don't see bullfighting as anything other than tormenting a deliberately injured animal for no good reason.

I agree.

If you've ever worked in a modern UK or EU abbatoir (I have), you would regard bull fighting, halal slaughter and other traditional methods of killing as the height of humanity.

If you moan about this sort of thing - to the extend of actually caring enough to do anything - then never buy meat from a supermarket again.

I don't.

I've been a vegetarian for almost all of my adult life and I couldn't bring myself to buy meat from a supermarket.  If there was the need for me to take animal life in order to eat, I'd do it like a shot, but the slow deliberate torture of animals for public entertainment sickens me to the pit of my stomach.

[clarion]

Oh.

I didn't click on the link, but, to my shame, I picked up on the news from Metro.

However, I am disgusted, sickened and appalled.

Yes, it is animal cruelty.  Even some of our most pro-hunting members seem to agree on that point.

Yes, it is child cruelty.  I have no doubt.  Kids in this country are involved in illegal dogfighting.  Is it any worse because they don't sell tickets?

I hope this is the last thrashing of what is a dying 'tradition', and that we can welcome Spain (and Mexico, Venezuela and wherever else this horror continues) into the modern world.

If you've ever worked in a modern UK or EU abbatoir (I have), you would regard bull fighting, halal slaughter and other traditional methods of killing as the height of humanity.

If you moan about this sort of thing - to the extend of actually caring enough to do anything - then never buy meat from a supermarket again.

Pancho, other than numbers, I can't say that I find a material difference between treating animals badly in the interests of cheap meat, or torturing and killing them in a publicly bloodthirsty way.

But no, I cannot and will not buy meat from a supermarket.

[slowfen]

I saw this earlier, and didn't reply, it is still hard to but my thoughts into words.

I am a meat eater, only buy at farmers markets because of the welfare issues as well as flavour.

I can and haved killed animals and would have no qualms about doing so for food.

However the maiming/torturing and killing of an animal for entertainment is sickening. And how many are treated even less well in the small town arenas as opposed to the showcase arenas?

[Ian H]

I can understand the arguments for bull-fighting, though I'm not persuaded. But killing calves for a Guinness Book of Records entry is merely obscene.

[clarion]

Surely the GBWR should stop listing such things.  They stopped accepting entries for eating records because of the risk to life.  This is purely about death.

[Really Ancien]

I can't see how the suffering involved is any worse that the prolonged misery of say a dairy cow.

Dairy cows are actually quite cheerful animals, a bit overbred perhaps, but they get to exhibit a fair range of behaviours. not as much as a suckler herd, but they seem to like the routine, they also get a long time off when they are in-calf and hence dry.

Damon.

[mrcharly-YHT]

It's killing for entertainment. That's barbaric.

I see no reason why this should be considered more morally justifiable than people fighting to death for entertainment.

In fact, bring back gladiators, swords and all. For crying out loud, at least people can make a reasoned choice about whether to fight.

As for the 'Half ton of angry animal vs puny human'; don't make me laugh. People are killing machines. Overfed, 'civilised' westerners might find animals scary, but people are lethal, even without guns in their hands.

[Julian]

As for the "lone man facing single handedly a half a ton of angry pot roast" - if you listen to the song, you'll find Tom Lehrer agrees with you.  The "pot roast" bit is a comment on the likely outcome.

YouTube - In Old Mexico   Tom Lehrer

I hadn't had so much fun since the day... my brother's dog Rover / Got run over.

Rover was killed by a Pontillac, and it was done with such grace and artistry that the witnesses awarded the driver both ears and the tail.

[Sergeant Pluck]

Stressed cows produce less milk so avoiding stress is a big part of dairy herd management.

Back to the OP, does the Guinness Book of Records allow this kind of crap in their big book of crap? If so maybe some emails are in order.

[ScumOfTheRoad]

Sergeant Pluck, I saw that item in the Metro today also, and was surprised about the Guinness records submission. I would be very, very surprised if they have any catagories for bullfighting,
let alone one for a child. I could be very wrong.

[Jacomus]

Sergeant Pluck, I saw that item in the Metro today also, and was surprised about the Guinness records submission. I would be very, very surprised if they have any catagories for bullfighting,
let alone one for a child. I could be very wrong.

They do not - that was bad journalism...

Aunty BeebAn earlier version of this story suggested Michelito Lagravere might have achieved a Guinness World Record. In fact Guinness World Records says it was not aware the event was taking place, and will not recognise the result as it does not accept records based on the killing or harming of animals.