New tubeless convert... or so I thought

[Bolt]

So having had my new GT Grade Carbon for a couple of weeks now, I've been busy putting this my first tubeless setup consisting of Stans Radler rims fitted with Clement Strada Ush tyres to the test.  I had always been quite sceptical about tubeless but as the new bike came with them fitted, I saw it as a good way to at least try them out without having to go through the faff and expense of the diy approach.  I have to say I was impressed, running the 700x32 tyres at their minimum pressure of 40psi and treating them to an off road pounding each day on my daily commute.  Comfortable, fast, grippy and no punctures, I was really impressed, so much so that I removed the spare tube from my repair kit and replaced it with a tubeless repair kit, just in case, and continued into week 2 with my newfound reckless riding style.

So today I decided to give the bike a once over to check all was still in order.  Out of sheer curiosity I deflated the front tyre just to take a peek inside.  Imagine my surprise when I discovered there was no sealant, tubeless valve or rim tape, but instead there was the humble inner tube.

Although I've taken up the case with Wiggle as the bike was not advertised as only being "tubeless ready" I have to say I'm not overly fussed, as I'm delighted with the bike and this experience seems to confirm my original skepticism regarding tubeless.  Even if they concede and give me a tubeless "kit" I'm struggling to see what advantage it would give me?

[Hot Flatus]

I'd give it a bit more than 2 weeks, wear a bit of rubber off the tyres and wait until the weather turns a bit shit 

Been using tubeless for 2 years. Actual punctures= quite a few. Punctures necessitating action from me=zero.   I'm particularly appreciative of that at about 100 miles into a winter 200k when it's dark, cold and I'm tired and hungry. Ditto cold commutes in the rain.

[Bolt]

I get that the puncture protection can be quite effective but I'm a bit put off my having to remember to refresh the sealant every 3 months and not having the option to easily swap tyres depending on season and terrain.  Wouldn't it be just as effective to put some sealant in an innertube, I'm guessing the evaporation would be less?

[Hot Flatus]

No idea, so why not try?

Orangeseal endurance claims to have a longer life.

I think tubeless is not maintenance free. It's actually maintenance heavy...but the maintenance happens at a single time of your choosing rather than in lots of short but random occurrences.

[andrew_s]

Inner tubes are usually stretched a fair bit inside the tyre. When there's a puncture, the stretched rubber unstretch, pulling back from the hole, so the sealant has more to do than it does in a tyre.

It would be best to fit a larger tube, such that if the tube has just enough air in to round it out, it matches the size of the tyre - eg a 28-35 tube in a 25 tyre.
Even in the absence of sealant, a thorn can plug the hole it's just made in an unstretched tube well enough that the tube will hold air for a week.

I believe it's common for tubes to be fitted in new bikes that have tubeless tyres and rims. I don't know how long adding the sealant etc takes, but I wouldn't mind betting that the added labour cost will be a great deal more than the wholesale cost of a tube.

[PaulF]

Adding sealant isn’t a great chore: deflate tyre, remove valve core, add sealant, replace core, inflate tyre.

[T42]

I get that the puncture protection can be quite effective but I'm a bit put off my having to remember to refresh the sealant every 3 months and not having the option to easily swap tyres depending on season and terrain.  Wouldn't it be just as effective to put some sealant in an innertube, I'm guessing the evaporation would be less?

I'm imagining sealant leaking out through the hole and sealing the tube to the tyre - or does it clot too rapidly for that to happen?

[mzjo]

I get that the puncture protection can be quite effective but I'm a bit put off my having to remember to refresh the sealant every 3 months and not having the option to easily swap tyres depending on season and terrain.  Wouldn't it be just as effective to put some sealant in an innertube, I'm guessing the evaporation would be less?

I'm imagining sealant leaking out through the hole and sealing the tube to the tyre - or does it clot too rapidly for that to happen?

I think that salant in tubes is effective when the holes being sealed are very small so too little sealant leaks out to make this a problem. I would guess that with a big enough hole you might be glad to have the tyre seal with the tube, at least until you got home.

Our experience with the Decathlon sealant filled tubes on 26" mtb wheels has been generally positive - cheap, effective and easy. However that has not persuaded me to fit them to the road bikes.

[Kim]

I've tried sealant-filled tubes in the past.  They seem to work at MTB pressures, but less so in road tyres.  The main problem is that once the sealant fails, you end up with everything covered in snot and can't get a patch to stick.

[Samuel D]

I've tried sealant-filled tubes in the past.  They seem to work at MTB pressures, but less so in road tyres.

Much like tubeless, then.

Possibly okay if you’re willing to ride roads at 40 PSI. I would rather not.

I think the main reason tubes don’t work as well as tyres with sealant is that they are thinner. This gives less wall surface for the sealant plug to attach to.

[Cudzoziemiec]

It's the 40psi that's the interesting bit, to me. I thought that one of the advantages of tubeless was meant to be the ability to use lower pressures. Bolt was using 40psi in his 700 x 32 tyres in the belief that they were tubeless, during which time he describes them as "comfortable, fast, grippy" only to find they actually had a conventional tube in all that time. So it seems low pressures are good for conventional tubes too.

[mrcharly-YHT]

So it seems low pressures are good for conventional tubes too.

Right up until you hit a pothole and get a snakebite puncture.

[Samuel D]

But a tubeless set-up will bottom out on the rim every time you would have got a pinch flat. That’s barely more desirable than a pinch flat.

[Cudzoziemiec]

That sounds unlikely, but I'll wait for someone who's used them to confirm or deny.

[Samuel D]

Perhaps there’s a misunderstanding. For a pinch flat to occur, the tube must get trapped liked this (minus the exaggerated ‘ears’ that the artist has made the tyre form).

Momentarily lacking an air cushion, the rim may be damaged. Whether or not a tube is there makes little difference to this; and the difference it does make is in favour of the tube-type arrangement, which provides another millimetre or two of rubber cushioning. Pinch flats should be treated as a stern warning that you risk rim damage if you don’t increase tyre pressure.

But as Bolt has discovered, you can run surprisingly low pressures without immediately getting a pinch flat, as long as you ride slowly or avoid obstacles. I see commuters with practically flat tyres who evidently don’t immediately puncture. These facts don’t make it a good idea, not least because rolling resistance is needlessly high.

[mrcharly-YHT]

You usually get snakebites from hitting the sharp edge of a pothole at speed.

I've never damaged a rim (when getting a snakebite), but have had snakebites several times when using 25mm tyres and letting the pressure get a bit low. Under 80psi in the rear, not noticing a pothole (so I didn't unweight the wheel) and bang.

[Cudzoziemiec]

If the recommended pressure for a tubeless tyre is as low as 40 psi (albeit it in a 32mm tyre not a 25), that suggests a tubeless tyre is made in such a way that it won't bottom out when hitting a pothole at those pressures.

[mrcharly-YHT]

It isn't that it won't bottom out, it is that nothing really bad will happen if it does bottom out.

[Si S]

It isn't that it won't bottom out, it is that nothing really bad will happen if it does bottom out.

Well that does sort of depend, if you're stupid enthusiastic enough, you can split the tyre much the same as snakebite in a tube and/or dent the rim.

[zigzag]

yes, the force of the impact needs to be such, that if we subtract the force required to bottom the tyre out the remaining f is high enough to damage (bend/crack) the rim. it rarely happens, but it does sometimes.

[Samuel D]

I would be interested to know how big the envelope is between pinch flat and rim damage. Since many people claim tubeless allows lower pressures, perhaps it is big enough to matter. Nonetheless, rims are pretty easily damaged when the air cushion is gone. They’re made of light alloy with thin protruding walls, after all.

I consider any bottoming out of the rim to be something to strictly avoid, regardless of tyre type.

I suspect low-pressure advocates wouldn’t usually get pinch flats anyway, just as Bolt didn’t at 40 PSI.

Happily, this decision isn’t one I have to make, since I prefer tyre pressures that keep rolling resistance low. Those make pinch flats a rarity anyway.

[hubner]

700x32 tyres at their minimum pressure of 40psi and treating them to an off road pounding each day on my daily commute.  Comfortable, fast, grippy and no punctures,

I suspect for riding on the road, there's no need to under inflate by that much, because the tyre will bottom out going over sharp ridges and edges of potholes etc. And the problem is rim damage which can ruin a rim, a snakebite puncture is a mere inconvenience in comparison.

Fast? Compared with what?

I think tubeless is change for the sake of change, a solution looking for a problem.

[psyclist]

I think tubeless is change for the sake of change, a solution looking for a problem.

I'm on the fence, but intrigued.

My understanding is that tubeless has been well received within the mountain biking community, and is gaining some ground within road biking. Is your statement targeted at the usage of tubeless in road cycling, or across all usages?

[dim]

I'm new to tubeless and am well impressed so far

I had wheels built by my LBS (HED Belgium Plus rims, Chris King R45 hubs (ceramic bearing upgrade), Sapin CX-Ray spokes, and the tyres that I had fitted are 2017 IRC Formula Pro RBCC tubeless road tyres

so far, I have had one puncture  after 810km (I had a puncture on the front tyre during the Cambridge Autumnal audax last week .... puncture sealed but the tyre lost a lot of pressure.... a few quick pumps and all was good ....took  less than 5 minutes .... a lot of the Orange sealant spewed out before sealing, but the following day, I topped it up

the tyres roll really well (I experemented with different pressures and am happy with 70 for the front and 75 for the back with these IRC tyres  (I like fast and at these pressures, they roll as fast (if not faster) than Conti GP4000SII .... grip is a lot better than the Conti though. Not as fast as Specialized Turbo Cottons, but more durable ... i rate these IRC tyres highly

Anyone having new wheels built will be a fool for not getting tubeless ready rims .... gives you a lot more options as regards tyre choice, and some of the current fastest tyres are tubeless .... Even Schwalbe have stated that the future is tubeless tyres

If tubeless is not for you, you can use normal clinchers and tubes on tubeless ready rims

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Of course it is so easy to remove and refit tyres on tubeless-ready rims without tyre levers ...