New tubeless convert... or so I thought

[Brucey]

this 'fool' is not going to buy tubeless rims until (if/when) I am definitely going to use tubeless tyres (*).

Tubeless ready rims are usually a monumental PITA to live with; the kind of rims that I'd chuck in the bin rather than carry on using, under normal circumstances....

(*) which might never happen....

cheers

[dim]

Of course it is so easy to remove and refit tyres on tubeless-ready rims without tyre levers ...

my LBS fitted my tubeless tyres without levers, but he says that they were tight (they are supposed to be tight) .... if you really need to use tyre levers, then use them, but use the proper ones (IRC have their own levers which they recomend

if you worry about seating the beads on a ride when you have a puncture and need to add a tube , fit the tyre/tube, then use a CO2 cannister to seat it .... deflate the tyre/let the air/CO2 out (from what I have read, CO2 affects the sealant) .... then pump it up with your small handpump

If you have a hole that does not seal, use the repair kit

or if you are really frightened..... carry a spare tube and a spare clincher tyre (and your tyre levers)

bottom line..... small punctures should/will seal with the selant if the tyres have been fitted properly, and the correct tape/sealant and rims are used ... for me, it's worth the extra initial cost for the rims/tape/selant and valves....

 

[dim]

this 'fool' is not going to buy tubeless rims until (if/when) I am definitely going to use tubeless tyres (*).

Tubeless ready rims are usually a monumental PITA to live with; the kind of rims that I'd chuck in the bin rather than carry on using, under normal circumstances....

(*) which might never happen....

cheers

my late mother (she was old) used to say the same about microwave ovens until she bought one 

[Brucey]

I have almost zero tolerance of rim and tyre combinations that are needlessly tight.

AFAICT that is 'all tyres on tubeless-ready rims'.

cheers

[dim]

I have almost zero tolerance of rim and tyre combinations that are needlessly tight.

AFAICT that is 'all tyres on tubeless-ready rims'.

cheers

Brucey .... if you have weak thumbs, you can use your heels   :

http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=28167.msg511847#msg511847

[LittleWheelsandBig]

It is interesting how somebody finds the right answer for themselves and then thinks it is the right answer for everybody else too.

[dim]

It is interesting how somebody finds the right answer for themselves and then thinks it is the right answer for everybody else too.

Nah ... it's a bit more complex than that ....

sometimes, someone gives very good advice based on their own experiences .... some people however (especially the older), have set ways and don't like trying new things (but they eventually do after a long time)

if you are afraid of changing tyres, I hope you have not ordered Marathon plus for winter (or Durano Plus or Gator (on some rims)

in Engineering, we have a saying: 'If you use yesterday's technology today.... you will be out of business tomorrow'

and in finance, there is a saying: .... If you want to run with the wolves, you have to learn how to piss on the trot'

[sojournermike]

It is interesting how somebody finds the right answer for themselves and then thinks it is the right answer for everybody else too.

Nah ... it's a bit more complex than that ....

sometimes, someone gives very good advice based on their own experiences .... some people however (especially the older), have set ways and don't like trying new things (but they eventually do after a long time)

if you are afraid of changing tyres, I hope you have not ordered Marathon plus for winter (or Durano Plus or Gator (on some rims)

in Engineering, we have a saying: 'If you use yesterday's technology today.... you will be out of business tomorrow'

and in finance, there is a saying: .... If you want to run with the wolves, you have to learn how to piss on the trot'

I'm older than everyone I ride with in the day to day, and the only one riding tubeless. I really like them and am comfortable with the ongoing maintenance for the benefits. I appreciate riding home after a noticeable puncture without needing to stop. Particularly when I recall needing to beg use of a chaps hose to clean the all enveloping mud off my bike before fixing a puncture incurred during a bit of bridleway bashing on 28mm Ultremos (probably not optimum)

[LittleWheelsandBig]

It is interesting how somebody finds the right answer for themselves and then thinks it is the right answer for everybody else too.

Nah ... it's a bit more complex than that ....

sometimes, someone gives very good advice based on their own experiences .... some people however (especially the older), have set ways and don't like trying new things (but they eventually do after a long time)

if you are afraid of changing tyres, I hope you have not ordered Marathon plus for winter (or Durano Plus or Gator (on some rims)

in Engineering, we have a saying: 'If you use yesterday's technology today.... you will be out of business tomorrow'

and in finance, there is a saying: .... If you want to run with the wolves, you have to learn how to piss on the trot'

I was a bike shop mechanic for quite a few years and a team mechanic for a while. I'm younger than you are and have been an engineer for a couple of decades. Flat tyres don't bother me overly much, but you are starting to do so.

[Brucey]

fortunately we are riding bikes not running engineering businesses or financial services (yeah right it is that simple that you can use little sayings instead of rigorous management.... )  and if we are trading trite aphorisms try

"if it ain't broke, don't  f**king fix it"

I don't have 'weak thumbs', and I generally use tyres/rims that mean that I can remove in seconds using just my fingers.

IIRC Douglas Adams had a piece in one of his books about 'new technology' in which he observed (and I paraphrase) that some folk are so excited about getting it to work at all, that they completely miss just how pointless it really is.

cheers

[jsabine]

you have to learn how to piss on the Trot'

Shouldn't this sort of thing be in POBI?

[chrisbainbridge]

Why is it so important to fit a tyre with your thumbs?  Actually thumbs were probably not designed for that.  Thumbs are quite weak with really rubbish joint design for power activities and are best kept for activities requiring real dexterity.

After all the thing which separates us from so much of the Animal Kingdom is the ability to use tools.


That said, tubeless are slightly more difficult to seat than clinchers and may require an extra tool.  overall they seem to reduce for most people the time they spend cold and wet with dirty hands at the side of the road.

[Hot Flatus]

If people have tried new technology and decide the benefits are not worth the disadvantages it is an intelligent and rational response. Anything else is ludditism.

The last bike I bought had di2, hydro discs and tubeless ready wheels (which I promptly fitted with tubeless tyres). It was a deliberate decision to adopt all 3 new technologies and I have to say I like all 3.

Of the 3, the brakes have no disadvantages (bar cost and weight penalty) over any other braking system but loads of advantages.

The tubeless system has some disadvantages (cost, fiddly installation) but the advantages outweigh. For me.

Di2 works amazingly.  Maintenance free bar battery charging, faultless shifting always, not cables to degrade. However it does have a huge cost penalty, and the upgrade/replacement  path may get complicated.

There will be people who deny the advantages, but they tend to be know-it-alls who have never owned any of it. Beyond that, it is up to people to make their own decisions with regards to cost/benefits and if the decision is based on knowledge and experience it isn't fair to mock.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I'm intrigued by tubeless. If I were to go back to commuting regularly I think I'd end up with a tubeless setup. It would be worth it to deal with the glass (I had days when I punctured more than once from glass).

I'm with Brucey on the easy-to-fit tyres. I've had tyre/rim combinations that were a very tight fit and sure it's doable. But when you are tired, it is dark, raining, and the damn tyre is really hard to fit; it is so much better to have a tyre that is easy to fit on the rim.

Of course it would be better to have a tyre that hadn't punctured in the first place (or was self-sealing). A tyre that didn't need taking off, and was still fast rolling. Tubeless seems to offer that.

[Hot Flatus]

It does indeed.

My take on two years use with two bikes is that problems sort  themselves out with no need for intervention. When the tyre wears thin the punctures happen more regularly, just as they do with conventional tyres, and sometimes they take longer to seal. Time to change the tyre.

You've always the option of carrying a spare tube, just as you do with a conventional tyre.

The initial fitting requires more care, soaping the beads, and possibly some form of compressed air (Ive not needed it) to seat the beads.

In 2 years and about 14, 000 miles Ive not had to stop and repair a puncture. In winter I can run low pressures to get more grip without fear of snakebite, and if I ride over a pothole I dont run the risk of a puncture.

The sportier tyres (Schwalbe one pro £45) are much the same as conventional tyres in that they wear out quickly and cost more. Tougher tyres (Hutchinson Sector 32 £25-35) cost less and have worse grip and ride, but last longer. Much like conventional tyres.

[Cudzoziemiec]

In winter I can run low pressures to get more grip without fear of snakebite, and if I ride over a pothole I dont run the risk of a puncture.

Flatus, as you know what you're talking about (in this case!  ), what pressures do you use summer and winter, how do they compare to what you'd use in conventional tubed tyres, and do the tubeless tyres still bottom out (without getting snakebites) at low pressure over a pothole?

[Hot Flatus]

Summer Pro One 25mm 90psi

Winter Sector 32mm 60psi

How do they compare? No punctures. Potholes or otherwise. It's hard to comment on bottoming out differences objectively. The sidewalls are a bit thicker, but whether tubeless bottom out less I couldn't say.

All I can say is that I've had punctures from hitting potholes on tubed tyres but not tubeless. Therefore, on tubeless, and particularly the Sectors, I dont feel I need to take so much evasive action.

[mattc]

It is interesting how somebody finds the right answer for themselves and then thinks it is the right answer for everybody else too.

Nah ... it's a bit more complex than that ....

sometimes, someone gives very good advice based on their own experiences .... some people however (especially the older), have set ways and don't like trying new things (but they eventually do after a long time)

if you are afraid of changing tyres, I hope you have not ordered Marathon plus for winter (or Durano Plus or Gator (on some rims)

in Engineering, we have a saying: 'If you use yesterday's technology today.... you will be out of business tomorrow'

I think _you_ may be struggling to understand the complexity here my friend!

I'm still watching tubeless with interest, but I'm not daft enough to jump onto new tech just because someone spouts trite rubbish like:

in Engineering, we have a saying: 'If you use yesterday's technology today.... you will be out of business tomorrow'

(For one thing, my current employer is delivering stuff that still works 14years on. Our particular market segment love it.)

And I'm quite happy to learn from the mistakes experience of others. Or from science. Or from actually looking at the numbers myself. I don't need to buy Di2 to know that it's very expensive 

[Cudzoziemiec]

Summer Pro One 25mm 90psi

Winter Sector 32mm 60psi

How do they compare? No punctures. Potholes or otherwise. It's hard to comment on bottoming out differences objectively. The sidewalls are a bit thicker, but whether tubeless bottom out less I couldn't say.

All I can say is that I've had punctures from hitting potholes on tubed tyres but not tubeless. Therefore, on tubeless, and particularly the Sectors, I dont feel I need to take so much evasive action.

Thanks. By "how do they compare?" I meant whether you were using the same pressures as you would in tubes, but all useful info from experience (and clearly you're using more than 40psi!). 

[Samuel D]

Has anyone ever seen (or seen photographic evidence of) a pinch flat in a latex tube? It has never happened to me despite bombing through a fair few craters on the mean streets of Paris. Since latex tubes are stretchier than regular tubes, it may border on impossible to get a pinch flat in a latex tube without also damaging the rim.

But then, as I said, I prefer to pump up my tyres. They roll better like that on the surfaces I encounter, whatever the low-pressure fans believe. Maybe I would incur a smaller penalty at lower pressures if I was willing to use fat tyres, but then I’d suffer greater drag at the moment I need it least: when pushing hard at over 40 km/h. It’s all a compromise.

[Brucey]

if you insist on running tyres which have the structural integrity of a second-rate condom all winter long, presumably you can congratulate yourself on 'a lack of punctures' if you run tubeless and the sealant actually works.

But I would say that if you choose tyres that are more appropriate to the conditions, you would not be getting many 'annoyance' type punctures anyway.  Does it really make a blind bit of difference if you run a 'performance tyre' on your training/commuting bike in the winter?  I'd argue 'definitely not'... [arguably you will get fitter by riding a slower bike, won't you...? ]

FWIW I run tyres (in the winter and for utility/training purposes) that are typical 'training tyres' on the front and something slightly more durable on the rear. I run my tyres a lot longer than most folk do and I would say that on average I get a couple of punctures in each tyre before they are headed for the bin. So the tyre and tube come on and off the rim two or three times over the life of the tyre.  With carefully chosen tyres and rims this is easier and takes a lot less time than changing a tubeless tyre even once.

 With the right tyre and rim, a fresh tube can be fitted and you can be on your way in a couple of minutes. For me this happens maybe once or twice a year, only, and I do thousands of miles in all conditions; not as many miles as some I am sure but plenty enough.

The other aspect is that a significant fraction (maybe a third?) of the punctures that I get (and see happen to others) are 'game over' punctures, where the tyre is rent asunder, with a gash that is so bad that a fresh tube and a boot is needed as a get-you home measure, whether you are running tubeless or not.  [BTW out of curiosity I have run tyres with various different boots in to destruction and not all boots are made equal by any means.]

 But the point is that if this happens to a tubeless tyre (or even a normal tyre on a tubeless rim), it is a real bloody performance to get yourself up and running again; you need to wrestle the (overly tight) tyre off the rim, deal with all the sticky crap inside the tyre, get the valve stem out the rim (another nightmare in the making, usually requiring pliers...(!! ) before you start, and you still need to boot the tyre and fit a tube etc. A tube that is more likely than normal to get pinched because the tyre is such a tight fit and a boot that is less likely to stay put because of the sticky crap....

So I'd argue that if you are getting very many punctures in normal tyres, maybe you are running the wrong tyres for the conditions.  If you are getting 'a normal' number of punctures, there is little if any advantage net in using tubeless tyres. Using normal tyres on tubeless-compatible rims is perhaps the worst of all worlds, i.e. it is  just making more work for yourself than is necessary.

cheers

[Hot Flatus]

I find that racier tyres almost invariably have better grip than tougher winter tyres. For some, that may be worth the penalties that come with riding lighter tyres in conditions that make punctures more likely.

YMMV. Which is also fine.

[sojournermike]

Summer Pro One 25mm 90psi

Winter Sector 32mm 60psi

How do they compare? No punctures. Potholes or otherwise. It's hard to comment on bottoming out differences objectively. The sidewalls are a bit thicker, but whether tubeless bottom out less I couldn't say.

All I can say is that I've had punctures from hitting potholes on tubed tyres but not tubeless. Therefore, on tubeless, and particularly the Sectors, I dont feel I need to take so much evasive action.

I won't wander into the disagreement between the converted and the unconverted here;) but as a further point of reference I'm running 25mm Schwalbe Ones at 80psi rear and 70psi front. I weight just under 13st/82kg at present and they seem fine to me. Sometimes I might inflate them to 85/75.

At my weight on N Yorks roads, 28mm Ones (effectively 30mm to 31mm wide) are too hard at 80+ psi in the back, 65 to 75 is better.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I find that racier tyres almost invariably have better grip than tougher winter tyres. For some, that may be worth the penalties that come with riding lighter tyres in conditions that make punctures more likely.

YMMV. Which is also fine.

The tests done by bicyclerollingresistance seem to agree with that.

Also, excluding M+ and Durano+, puncture-resistant tyres don't tend to have good grip. Harder rubber.

[Cudzoziemiec]

But I would say that if you choose tyres that are more appropriate to the conditions, you would not be getting many 'annoyance' type punctures anyway. 

That seems to imply that some punctures are enjoyable!!!

[BTW out of curiosity I have run tyres with various different boots in to destruction and not all boots are made equal by any means.]

I wonder how long a boot can last for? I've only used one once, when a GP 4 Seasons delaminated inside and out, halfway through a 200km audax. There was no perforation of the carcass, two flaps of tyre had broken off in matching places inside and outside the tyre. Very odd, but apparently they were/are known for this. It was obvious that a new tube would immediately rip so I didn't have a clue what to do, when along came an old bloke called Jack (Jack from Gloucester, if you're reading this, thank you!), who suggested I cut a section out of the old tube to use as a boot, and lent me his Swiss Army knife to do it. When he saw me again at the end of the ride, he expressed surprise I'd manage to get round the next 100km of Monmouthshire hills (these things always happen in Wales, it seems!). But I rode on that tube-made boot inside the delaminated tyre for the next couple of months till I finally changed it. I still don't carry a knife (unless I'm camping) but I have made a selection of boots (from bits of old tyre, mostly) which I always carry with me now.