Author Topic: Is the (discontinued) Campag Athena groupset any good? (Read 12683 times)

bobb · « **Reply #25 on:** 10 May, 2018, 07:20:28 pm »

Quote from: Flatus on 10 May, 2018, 07:10:21 pm

And the bearing on the axle?

Yes, of course... The whole lot

campagman · « **Reply #26 on:** 10 May, 2018, 07:43:13 pm »

I will be riding my bike with MK1 Athena circa. 1994 tomorrow. I fitted a Stronglight compact chainset a few years ago. The Athena chainset is fitted to a different bike.

Phil W · « **Reply #27 on:** 10 May, 2018, 07:48:20 pm »

Quote from: Flatus on 10 May, 2018, 06:50:52 pm

Ive never had a Shimano lever break on me. Ive had Campag levers break 3 times.

Ha, my Shimano levers broke 3 times. The front triple shifters twice and the rear shifter once.

Brucey · « **Reply #28 on:** 11 May, 2018, 12:43:23 am »

by far and away the most common fault with most shimano road stis is that they simply gum up (through lack of lube) or jam up when the cables fray. They are (accident damage asides) surprisingly durable in most of their 'washing line' incarnations. Later ones I am yet to be convinced about.

If you want to pick a 'sensible' campag ergo for use with fairly modern kit then the 2005-2007 model veloce is (to my mind) pick of the bunch; not too expensive, sensible LH shifter that will work almost any FD, with internals that are very similar to the preceding ten year's worth of ergos, (including the 'record' models) so no nasty surprises. These are however not perfect; springs occasionally break and if you sweat lots the thumb button pivots can go manky if you don't lube them. The whole business with 'G' springs is an arrangement that is likely to wear gently into senescence rather than suffer catastrophic failure.

Ultimately it won't last as many shifts as a shimano STI without wearing, but whilst spare parts are (were) readily available having new G springs fitted every 15k or so (and a new index wheel if that was bad too) wasn't prohibitively expensive in terms of spare parts. I have a couple of sets of veloce ergos and they do fine on bikes that see mostly 'sunny day' use and don't do that many miles. However if you beat crap out of a bike every day, then you are better off using something else; veloce ergo rebuilds may be once every year or two otherwise.

Ultimately the whole business of integrating the shifters and the brakes is just a needless complication for most riders who are training, touring and/or commuting. I particularly don't like that fact that they suck you into lots of (mostly needless) gearshifts and into using just one or two riding positions. I also don't like the fact that they cost a small fortune (they are often the second most expensive part on a bike) are easily damaged, difficult to service, go obsolete and limit your choices of other equipment (like mechs, numbers of chainrings, brakes and even handlebars).

It surely wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to make an ergo/STI with

1) an adjustable brake cable pull, that could be made to work any brake sensibly and

2) to have an index mechanism that has the index wheel/mechanism readily accessible so that it can be changed for another as your bike requires.

But that would be too easy, wouldn't it?.....

So for now there is much to be said for things like Kelly's take offs and the like; they at least free up your choices a bit, and are less likely to leave you with a bill of hundreds of pounds for stupid shifters if you have a small prang....

cheers

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #29 on:** 11 May, 2018, 08:13:28 am »

Quote from: Brucey on 11 May, 2018, 12:43:23 am

If you want to pick a 'sensible' campag ergo for use with fairly modern kit then the 2005-2007 model veloce is (to my mind) pick of the bunch; not too expensive, sensible LH shifter that will work almost any FD, with internals that are very similar to the preceding ten year's worth of ergos, (including the 'record' models) so no nasty surprises. These are however not perfect; springs occasionally break and if you sweat lots the thumb button pivots can go manky if you don't lube them. The whole business with 'G' springs is an arrangement that is likely to wear gently into senescence rather than suffer catastrophic failure.

Ultimately it won't last as many shifts as a shimano STI without wearing, but whilst spare parts are (were) readily available having new G springs fitted every 15k or so (and a new index wheel if that was bad too) wasn't prohibitively expensive in terms of spare parts. I have a couple of sets of veloce ergos and they do fine on bikes that see mostly 'sunny day' use and don't do that many miles.

Well here's an idea, the 2006-era 10 speed Campag Veloce shifters, that I took off my Hewitt Cheviot tourer, I sent off to have their internals completely replaced (by http://www.i-rde.co.uk), as after more than 9 years hard use they were knackered. At one point I was thinking of putting them back on my tourer, but I'm actually quite happy with the bar ends I put on that. So - perhaps I good use them for the sportive/audax build I have in mind - would they work okay with currently available Campag components?

For example - 10-speed Campag Veloce rear mechanism: https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Campagnolo-Veloce-Rear-Mech_45089.htm?sku=116472

(Which usefully is available in both short and medium cage variants)

Veloce chainset:
https://www.condorcycles.com/products/campagnolo-veloce-10-speed-chainset (Yes it's Power Torque, but I would get my LBS to fit/replace it anyway).

13-29 cassette looks interesting with 50/34 chain ring

I assume these shifters would work with any Campag double or triple front mech? I was using it with a Shimano XT front mech previously.

Also I assume there would be no issues using them with any dual-pivot brakes, Campag or otherwise?

Brucey · « **Reply #30 on:** 11 May, 2018, 08:45:55 am »

with veloce 10s ergos of that vintage;

-front shifting will be OK with almost any FD (even on a triple)

-rear shifting will be OK with any campag 10s mech (and may also work with shimano 11s road mech and shimano 10s cassette)

for brakes you are probably best off using a pre-NSSLR DP brake, i.e. any campag or any DP shimano brake launched before 2008. [If you use NSSLR calipers you will have lots of power but less running clearance and more risk of the lever coming back to the handlebar.]

If you are planning on having mudguards on this bike, I'd suggest shimano BR-R650 calipers (57mm drop max) and buying a frameset that fits around those, set to near maximum drop. This will allow good clearance with 25s and mudguards, and will also allow 28s and mudguards should this prove appealing. The Hewitt Chiltern springs to mind but there are lots of others, including the Spa Audax.

cheers

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #31 on:** 11 May, 2018, 09:02:35 am »

Quote from: Brucey on 11 May, 2018, 08:45:55 am

with veloce 10s ergos of that vintage;

-front shifting will be OK with almost any FD (even on a triple)

-rear shifting will be OK with any campag 10s mech (and may also work with shimano 11s road mech and shimano 10s cassette)

for brakes you are probably best off using a pre-NSSLR DP brake, i.e. any campag or any DP shimano brake launched before 2008. [If you use NSSLR calipers you will have lots of power but less running clearance and more risk of the lever coming back to the handlebar.]

If you are planning on having mudguards on this bike, I'd suggest shimano BR-R650 calipers (57mm drop max) and buying a frameset that fits around those, set to near maximum drop. This will allow good clearance with 25s and mudguards, and will also allow 28s and mudguards should this prove appealing. The Hewitt Chiltern springs to mind but there are lots of others, including the Spa Audax.

Thanks Brucey, good to know! I'd like to keep the components to Campag for this build, if at all possible, or is that going to be tricky with the brakes, if I want to be able to fit 25mm with mudguards? Was also considering the Mercian Audax frame BTW.

Brucey · « **Reply #32 on:** 11 May, 2018, 09:37:59 am »

as others have commented upthread, campag have not made a brake with more than ~50mm drop for decades. Because of this there are countless audax bikes that are 'campag equipped' apart from the brakes, with BR-R650 being the favourite brake.

If you really want to stick to campag, with mudguards, you would have to go back to the 1980s (or further) and use a set of long drop SP calipers. These give pretty feeble braking when used with more modern ergos.

cheers

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #33 on:** 11 May, 2018, 09:45:16 am »

Quote from: Brucey on 11 May, 2018, 09:37:59 am

as others have commented upthread, campag have not made a brake with more than ~50mm drop for decades. Because of this there are countless audax bikes that are 'campag equipped' apart from the brakes, with BR-R650 being the favourite brake.

If you really want to stick to campag, with mudguards, you would have to go back to the 1980s (or further) and use a set of long drop SP calipers. These give pretty feeble braking when used with more modern ergos.

Okay, thanks for that - so basically Campag brakes are really only to be an option if I forgo mudguards (which I might).

I presume the Shimano BR-R650 is not pre-NSSLR, though? Will they still be usable with my 2006-era Veloce shifters? Are there any other options for pre-NSSLR long drop dual-pivot calipers that are still available to purchase new or as NOS?

Brucey · « **Reply #34 on:** 11 May, 2018, 12:02:32 pm »

you presume wrongly; BR-R650 is an old design.

cheers

tatanab · « **Reply #35 on:** 11 May, 2018, 12:30:54 pm »

I have BR-650 with Veloce levers (1990s 8 speed) with no problems.

Campag callipers and mudguards is an issue because the shape of Campag arms is more rounded so tend to push the mudguard around under braking where the same depth Shimano does not. At least this is what I was told in the 1990s. I found it true that the front mudguard gets pushed around and so I use Continental tyres which, being lowish profile, allows me to set the mudguard lower in the fork crown. I have 2006 Centaur callipers (used with 1992 Record ergo levers) which were an oddity in having a depth of 52mm, used with a 25mm Gatorskin I have reasonable mudguard clearance.

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #36 on:** 11 May, 2018, 12:44:37 pm »

Quote from: Brucey on 11 May, 2018, 12:02:32 pm

you presume wrongly; BR-R650 is an old design.

Thanks Brucey and tatanab for clarifying about the BR-R650 brakes, sounds like they're the way to go if I want to have the option of adding mudguards (which for Audax rides is probably a good idea, even in what passes for "summer" here). At least they're available in silver, so shouldn't look too out of place.

Should these brakes fit okay on the Mercian Audax frame?

Paul H · « **Reply #37 on:** 11 May, 2018, 01:18:38 pm »

Quote from: Oxford_Guy on 11 May, 2018, 12:44:37 pm

Should these brakes fit okay on the Mercian Audax frame?

Mercian build the Audax models with either short or long reach brakes depending on what you ask for.

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #38 on:** 11 May, 2018, 01:21:17 pm »

There's also the shiny (polished, not anodized) Velo Orange Grand Cru long reach brakes, which certainly look the part at least, look sturdy, and would avoid the heretical Campag-Shimano mix of components ;-)

I *think* these are suitable for pre-NSSLR levers:

http://freshtripe.co.uk/velo-orange-grand-cru-long-reach-brakeset/

There's a review here: https://www.gravelbike.com/first-impressions-grand-cru-long-reach-brakes/

Any opinions on these?

TRP RG957 brakes also sound like another alternative, and are available in a (anodized) finish, though are considerably more expensive and I think may be NSSLR, which probably rules them out for use with my Campag levers.

http://road.cc/content/review/115645-trp-rg957-deep-drop-brakes

sojournermike · « **Reply #39 on:** 11 May, 2018, 02:45:29 pm »

Quote from: Oxford_Guy on 11 May, 2018, 01:21:17 pm

There's also the shiny (polished, not anodized) Velo Orange Grand Cru long reach brakes, which certainly look the part at least, look sturdy, and would avoid the heretical Campag-Shimano mix of components ;-)

I *think* these are suitable for pre-NSSLR levers:

http://freshtripe.co.uk/velo-orange-grand-cru-long-reach-brakeset/

There's a review here: https://www.gravelbike.com/first-impressions-grand-cru-long-reach-brakes/

Any opinions on these?

TRP RG957 brakes also sound like another alternative, and are available in a (anodized) finish, though are considerably more expensive and I think may be NSSLR, which probably rules them out for use with my Campag levers.

http://road.cc/content/review/115645-trp-rg957-deep-drop-brakes

The TRP RG957 are excellent brakes and are supposed to be NSSLR. Certainly they work well with 6800 levers. I suspect they’d be fine with older pull ratios too, but will depend on your tolerance for close pads and longer lever throw (if I have that the correct way around).

They obviously cost more

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #40 on:** 11 May, 2018, 05:57:52 pm »

Quote from: sojournermike on 11 May, 2018, 02:45:29 pm

Quote from: Oxford_Guy on 11 May, 2018, 01:21:17 pm
There's also the shiny (polished, not anodized) Velo Orange Grand Cru long reach brakes, which certainly look the part at least, look sturdy, and would avoid the heretical Campag-Shimano mix of components ;-)

I *think* these are suitable for pre-NSSLR levers:

http://freshtripe.co.uk/velo-orange-grand-cru-long-reach-brakeset/

There's a review here: https://www.gravelbike.com/first-impressions-grand-cru-long-reach-brakes/

Any opinions on these?

TRP RG957 brakes also sound like another alternative, and are available in a (anodized) finish, though are considerably more expensive and I think may be NSSLR, which probably rules them out for use with my Campag levers.

http://road.cc/content/review/115645-trp-rg957-deep-drop-brakes

The TRP RG957 are excellent brakes and are supposed to be NSSLR. Certainly they work well with 6800 levers. I suspect they’d be fine with older pull ratios too, but will depend on your tolerance for close pads and longer lever throw (if I have that the correct way around).

They obviously cost more

Would prefer pre-NSSLR brakes for my Campag levers I think. Would be interested to know if anyone has any experience of the Velo Orange Grand Cru long reach brakes e.g. whether they are actually pre-NSSLR...

Brucey · « **Reply #41 on:** 11 May, 2018, 06:29:23 pm »

if you just *can't bear* to have 'shimano' written on your brake calipers, IIRC the logo comes off with a little acetone.

cheers

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #42 on:** 11 May, 2018, 09:53:19 pm »

Quote from: Brucey on 11 May, 2018, 06:29:23 pm

if you just *can't bear* to have 'shimano' written on your brake calipers, IIRC the logo comes off with a little acetone.

Could be useful to know!

BTW would a Campagnolo Chorus 2003 10 speed front double mech work fine with my 2006 10 speed Veloce ergo shifters? Will probably want to run a compact 50/34 and 13-29 cassette

Brucey · « **Reply #43 on:** 11 May, 2018, 11:52:14 pm »

yep, no reason why it shouldn't; it is only with the later semi-indexed front shifters that you need to worry about that kind of thing.

cheers

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #44 on:** 12 May, 2018, 12:29:46 pm »

Quote from: Brucey on 11 May, 2018, 11:52:14 pm

yep, no reason why it shouldn't; it is only with the later semi-indexed front shifters that you need to worry about that kind of thing.

Okay - one more question, I assume either of these two options would also be viable with this setup?:

1) NOS 2008/2009 Veloce or Centaur "10 speed" Ultratorque 34/50 compact chainset (170mm) and Ultratorque cups

or

2) 111m Square Taper Campagnolo Centaur (or maybe Chorus) Bottom Bracket and a Stronglight 34/50 compact chainset

I assume the Ultratorque setup will be stiffer and probably lighter, but the square taper more durable? This will mostly be for a "summer" bike, though. Is one a better choice than the other?

Brucey · « **Reply #45 on:** 12 May, 2018, 12:49:42 pm »

swings and roundabouts really; PT is stiffer but the bearings are more likely to fail through water ingress. Maybe this isn't a big deal for a bike that is used mainly in the summer.

Not sure that the campag 111mm BB is the right one for the stronglight cranks; IIRC the former is ISO and the latter is (if they are Japanese-made (sugino?)) JIS IIRC. Not even the vendors always know what is the correct BB for a given chainset and anyway it might vary from one frame to another.

BTW you might not, but I'd tend to run cross-chained a lot using the gears that you propose. If I were worried about that ( and plenty wouldn't, but I would be...) then I'd arrange as tight a chainline as possible and maybe go for a custom cassette with more useful ratios in 'straight chainline, big ring' position.

cheers

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #46 on:** 12 May, 2018, 01:06:37 pm »

Quote from: Brucey on 12 May, 2018, 12:49:42 pm

swings and roundabouts really; PT is stiffer but the bearings are more likely to fail through water ingress. Maybe this isn't a big deal for a bike that is used mainly in the summer.

The NOS chainsets I was thinking of are Ultratorque, not Powertorque, but I guess the same issues about water ingress would apply, but the bearings should be easier to change than PT, right? I won't be using this bike in Winter, though.

Quote

Not sure that the campag 111mm BB is the right one for the stronglight cranks; IIRC the former is ISO and the latter is (if they are Japanese-made (sugino?)) JIS IIRC. Not even the vendors always know what is the correct BB for a given chainset and anyway it might vary from one frame to another.

Okay, I guess if going for a stronglight crankset I'd just get a suitable (probably not Campag BB at the same time.

Quote

BTW you might not, but I'd tend to run cross-chained a lot using the gears that you propose. If I were worried about that ( and plenty wouldn't, but I would be...) then I'd arrange as tight a chainline as possible and maybe go for a custom cassette with more useful ratios in 'straight chainline, big ring' position.

The 13/29 cassette looked like it had reasonably useful ratios from what I could tell, a 39/53 chainset would be too high-geared for me and I don't really want a triple for the build I have in mind, as I'm not going to be carrying any significant loads (apart from myself) on the bike.

Am I likely to get a tighter chainline with UT or square taper BB?

~~EDIT: Sorry, wrong cassette shown, give me a minute...~~ Correct gear ratios for 13-29 and 34/50 now displaying

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #47 on:** 12 May, 2018, 01:37:33 pm »

I guess another option would be the old 12-30 Centaur 10-speed cassette, which would give a slightly larger range:

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/campagnolo-centaur-10-speed-cassette-12-30-69427

12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-27-30

Oxford_Guy · « **Reply #48 on:** 12 May, 2018, 03:40:22 pm »

or maybe I should get a triple, a low of only 30 inches for audax/sportive usage does concern me a little (I'm 48 and my knees and back are not as good as they used to be...). I assume that would be a 30/39/53, so definitely would want the cassette to start higher than 13T!

On 13-29 would look like this:

Brucey · « **Reply #49 on:** 12 May, 2018, 04:03:29 pm »

sorry I meant to say UT not PT but in practice they work about as well as one another and the main differences are in servicing. The chainline is basically not very adjustable with either system.

The ratios on the 12-30 cassette don't look that bad but may be a triple would be better. No reason you can't mix and match to use 30-40-50 or similar, using a campag ST triple. The triple setup weighs about 100-200g more than the double, something like that, depending on how you work it out.

cheers

Author Topic: Is the (discontinued) Campag Athena groupset any good? (Read 12683 times)

Phil W