Post by: drossall on 26 September, 2019, 10:16:27 pm
I was looking at a small, basic cycling GPS for these everyday rides, but I now find myself recording other activity as well, partly as a result of a recent cardiac bypass. My wife bought me a Vivosmart 3, and I've used it far more than I ever expected, for recording steps and as a basic heart-rate monitor when exercising, but it doesn't do cycling (no GPS) and it doesn't link to chest straps. As well as recording other activities, a watch would work with whatever bike I happened to use at the time, and it's more natural than fitting a GPS for short utility rides.
I've no plans to give up the Touring Plus for Audaxes, so something that just records every bike ride and sends it to Garmin Connect seems the ticket to me - as long as I can use a chest strap with it when doing gym exercises.
I can see, though, that having to start and stop the tracking for every ride would be a pain, as would anything that took a while to find its satellites.
I notice that Blacks are doing a really good price on the Fenix 5 at present. That's a bit high-end for me, as I don't need fancy features. There again...
Post by: fuaran on 26 September, 2019, 10:50:05 pm
I use it for recording most commuting and everyday cycling etc. Easy enough to start/stop, it is pretty quick to get GPS.
Has wrist heart rate, OK for most things, or can connect to another heart rate monitor / chest strap if you want it more accurate.
Also pretty good for running, or walking, or gym etc. And does step counting. Can sync it all automatically to Garmin Connect.
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 26 September, 2019, 11:17:44 pm
Alternatively for commuting etc look at the latest Garmin speed sensors which can store distance data and then upload over WiFi. Dcrainmaker has an article recently.
Post by: Bolt on 26 September, 2019, 11:28:18 pm
Post by: Greenbank on 26 September, 2019, 11:42:50 pm
Vivosport does wrist-based HR and GPS at ~£150.
Venu is the shiny new more watch-like version at £300.
Then you go towards the multisport stuff like the 735, 935 and then Fenix.
A running type watch (like the Forerunner 35 at ~£130) will still do cycling and gym stuff along with wrist-based HR.
I used to do everything with a Forerunner 110 (no wrist-based HR) that I eventually sold for £20 on eBay. Fine for running and cycling but more of a faff to download the data as it didn't sync to a phone.
--
Garmin's wrist-based HR isn't as accurate as a chest strap though. It really doesn't deal well with fluctuations in HR. A lot of my intervals or cycle commutes (where I stop often at traffic lights) have 5-10 minute long sections where it thinks my HR is 30-40bpm lower than it really is. Then it'll jump up to the right levels for 5-10 minutes, then possibly incorrect again for a similar period. I've had very few problems with a proper chest strap though.
(I use a Garmin 935 for swimming/cycling/running and every day use. I like the 24/7 HR info (despite its occasional inaccuracies) and the battery life is great - it'll do 2 weeks without the GPS being used, and ~20 hours of activity with the GPS enabled.
I'd buy it again (or maybe the 945 as the music bit would be nice for the few times I'd like not to have my phone with me) but I'd probably pair it with a Polar OH1+ HRM on an arm strap (rather than a chest strap) as it can also be attached to the google strap to get HR from the temple when swimming, much less of a faff than a chest strap when swimming.
Post by: ElyDave on 27 September, 2019, 06:52:29 am
its also what I use for my indoor gym sessions, running, swimming etc
Post by: FifeingEejit on 27 September, 2019, 10:26:19 am
The Bluetooth doesn't work
It takes forever to get a GPS fix
and then bounces allover the place for another minute or three.
The straps break
Battery life plunges after a while
Charging accuracy starts to fail
It's the device that killed Garmin as an option for me for anything else.
Post by: ElyDave on 27 September, 2019, 10:45:49 am
I didn't mention it but mine is a Fenix 2 adn don't relate to those problems at all.
I find that if I go from say Cambridgeshire to Aberdeen, it seems to "remember" where it was and gets a much quicker fix than if I were going somewhere new. My only criticism there is that it is more affected by buildings than some other Garmins I've had.
I've had one strap break, but it's a rubber strap, they wear on any watch.
Battery life is as I expect for a device of it's age, not degraded to the point of annoyance yet, adn ceratinly lasts me a week away from home with maybe an hour of activity a day.
Post by: trekker12 on 27 September, 2019, 11:01:38 am
My only issue with it was that it didn't project my HR to the ANT+ display on my Etrex whilst logging an activity to Garmin connect, you can do one or the other but not both. I'm not sure if it's different on more modern devices. It is slow to connect to GPS though as mentioned above with the Fenix, Mrs trekker usually got bored of waiting and was a mile down the road by the time my watch had started and i had tried to catch her up. Fitbit just works but doesn't talk to any other devices.
I gave up bothering recording my HR on the bike anyway as I don't really train for anything and enjoy the simplicity of riding a bike
Post by: dme on 27 September, 2019, 11:08:57 am
It doesn't upload things to Garmin Connect, but with an additional app (HealthFit) on the phone it will upload to Strava automatically, and claims to support a variety of other services, though I have not tried anything other than Strava.
It requires you to have an iPhone, so is a very expensive proposition if that isn't already the case. It's not cheap even if you do already use an iPhone.
I was very much a skeptic about the Apple Watch when I first got it, but if the current one broke I'd buy another immediately, which is probably the best praise I can give.
Edit: Oh, it will connect to my Polar Bluetooth chest strap without complications. Not tried it with anything else.
Post by: drossall on 27 September, 2019, 10:35:57 pm
If it helps I have a little used Vivosport with charger in a drawer at home I'm not using (I ended up with a fitbit) I'd be happy to come up with a price and post it to you?Thank you. Because part of my motivation for this is to monitor heart rate (which has suddenly become much more important to me) and part to track my everyday cycling, the Vivosport has, I think, the disadvantage of not working with chest-strap heart-rate sensors. Otherwise that would have been a brilliant offer. As it is, I think it would be quite similar to my Vivosmart 3, which doesn't work with chest straps either (but in addition lacks a GPS and therefore a cycling mode).
Much appreciated though.
Post by: drossall on 27 September, 2019, 10:41:52 pm
Lots of options within Garmin's range... Garmin's wrist-based HR isn't as accurate as a chest strap though.I think you've summed up my reasons for posting ;D
I've got the Edge Touring Plus, so I didn't want to go high end. That's why I went basic with a Vivosmart 3, thinking first about step counting (because the main thing I was being encouraged to do while I couldn't ride was to walk a lot). Using a (Polar) watch and strap in the physio sessions gave me a straight comparison on the Vivosmart's optical (wrist) HR monitoring, and showed up some of the issues mentioned by Greenbank.
But there are too many options and, given that I already have an adequate GPS for my real riding, I'm looking for a cost-effective option for the other purposes. But it needs to be a Garmin because I've got into the Connect system. I can't bring myself to think that anyone would care enough about my riding to make Strava of any interest :-[
I'd not come across the Instinct mentioned by fuaran. At the price for which Blacks (https://www.blacks.co.uk/equipment/134798-garmin-instinct-gps-watch-black.html) are doing it, that's almost affordable. Although what ElyDave says about the Fenix ones is encouraging, and Blacks also do that (https://www.blacks.co.uk/equipment/107995-garmin-f-nix-5-multisport-gps-watch.html) at a good rate.
Thanks for highlighting the Forerunner 35. I'm trying to work out why I thought it might not be enough. Good price again at Millets (https://www.millets.co.uk/equipment/037396-garmin-forerunner-35-multi-sport-watch.html)/Blacks.
Post by: sojournermike on 27 September, 2019, 11:06:17 pm
The only files that I don’t send to Strava from the watch are Neo rides that go direct from Tacx - that’s only because the upload then includes the map data for the synthetic route.
Post by: fuaran on 27 September, 2019, 11:45:29 pm
eg the Forerunner 935 and Fenix 5 are essentially the same watch, just in a plastic case instead of metal. So the Fenix is a bit heavier and tougher. And seems the metal case caused some problems with GPS accuracy and connecting to sensors. But this is fixed with the Fenix 5 Plus.
The Instinct is plastic but rugged style. Maybe looks like a cheap Casio, but I quite like it...
Some of the older basic Forerunners only had a running mode, not cycling. You could still record a ride, just have to set the correct sport in Garmin Connect afterwards. Though I think all of the current models do cycling anyway.
Post by: drossall on 27 September, 2019, 11:56:09 pm
I had wondered about Fenix vs Fenix Plus. Now I know. The 935XT seems to be expensive by comparison with the Fenix, at least at Blacks' prices for the latter. Maybe I cross the Fenix, which is high-end anyway, off the list. It's kind of heading for the 35, or stretch to the Instinct. The 735XT is OK, but I don't like its look much.
Post by: Greenbank on 28 September, 2019, 10:36:16 am
but I don't like its look much.
I used to wear my 920XT all the time, that was a fugly box of a watch but I got used to it. The 935 seems sleek in comparison although I know it's not.
Battery is the biggest driver for watch size. The 935 is designed for people to do Ironman length events (i.e. 17h max) so it needs a much bigger battery than some of the running specific Forerunners.
Also worth reading DC Rainmaker's reviews: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/product-reviews/garmin (and he'll review other brands too).
He's very thorough and really doesn't hold back if he things something is rubbish. He delves right into the technical/accuracy issues too.
Post by: fuaran on 28 September, 2019, 11:33:52 pm
Battery is the biggest driver for watch size. The 935 is designed for people to do Ironman length events (i.e. 17h max) so it needs a much bigger battery than some of the running specific Forerunners.Seems the latest GPS chipsets are much more efficient, so can give better battery life. eg the Forerunner 245 claims 24 hours battery with GPS, and is still pretty small and lightweight. Or 36 hours on the Forerunner 945.
Or even longer if you use ultratrac mode, but that doesn't record as much detail in the track.
Post by: drossall on 29 September, 2019, 12:10:02 am
Alternatively for commuting etc look at the latest Garmin speed sensors which can store distance data and then upload over WiFi.
I think you mentioned that in a previous thread, before I started considering chest straps. Thinking about it again, it's a really good point - my key aims could actually be met with a speed sensor on my Brompton, and a chest strap for the gym and "serious" riding - so just need to find the right (probably basic) watch to receive from the chest strap in the gym (my Edge Touring Plus will do it in Audaxes etc.)
However, the Brompton has a 3-speed rear hub and a dynamo front, so both are large hubs. I think you can sort of cobble together a fitting for a speed sensor with those, but it's not designed for them?
So many questions...
Post by: Auntie Helen on 29 September, 2019, 07:00:54 am
Post by: mike on 29 September, 2019, 07:11:22 am
Amazfit Bip
this looks like great vfm.. I wish I'd found the Amazfit range before I bought a Fenix3, which I use about 10% of it's functionality! (I wear the fenix all day, every day. Works beautifully with the chest belt, tells me way more about my runs, rows, cycles and paddleboards than I ever need. Even helps guide me on hikes in the lake district).
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 29 September, 2019, 01:59:20 pm
Having owned quite a few GPS watches I have finally found one that suits my needs in the Amazfit Bip. Most astonishing is its battery life which lasts up to a month between charges even with frequent use of the GPS and HRM. The only slight issue that natively it doesn't export to Strava but there is a very good 3rd part app called "Notify and Fitness" which vastly enhances the functionality of the watch, including sync to Strava. I would say that you need to be fairly tech savvy to get the best out of it but it's well worth the learning curve and its only £63 on Amazon at the moment!Question - how many days activities can it store, or do you need your phone on all the time?
I'm wondering whether this might be a good way of storing our tracks when we go to Cuba, where you're not supposed to take GPS receivers into the country and my phone won't get any signal.
Post by: Bolt on 29 September, 2019, 03:00:18 pm
Question - how many days activities can it store, or do you need your phone on all the time?I think it would make an excellent spy watch, I have the one with an orange bezel and it looks like it may have come out of a xmas cracker 8) though the actual build quality is very good and the glass face remarkably tough. The watch works independently of the phone and having just checked mine, it has about 2 months worth of activities stored on the watch, though I would imagine that the storage space is dependent on the size of the tracks recorded. I must stress that to export the activities off the watch you do need the 3rd party app previously mentioned, I use it on Android so do check if its available if you use an iphone... I'm guessing it might not due to the permissions the app needs?
I'm wondering whether this might be a good way of storing our tracks when we go to Cuba, where you're not supposed to take GPS receivers into the country and my phone won't get any signal.
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 29 September, 2019, 04:21:15 pm
Post by: Kim on 29 September, 2019, 04:52:08 pm
However, the Brompton has a 3-speed rear hub and a dynamo front, so both are large hubs. I think you can sort of cobble together a fitting for a speed sensor with those, but it's not designed for them?
If it's an accelerometer-based speed sensor that attaches to the hub shell with an o-ring, it just needs a longer rubber band (or functionally equivalent bodge). The usual attachment method doesn't work very well if the hub shell is more spherical than cylindrical.
Post by: drossall on 29 September, 2019, 05:15:26 pm
What about the Vivoactive? I really like my Vivoactive 3 and use it instead of the Edge for my commute and shorter rides. It connects with my chest strap if I want, and also with the cadence sensor on my bike.Yes, that looks a good candidate. At least it's more modestly priced than some!
I've actually got a birthday coming up, so I've added that one to the list of possibles (and also the Speed Sensor). The final choice may be down to others ;D
Post by: ElyDave on 29 September, 2019, 05:56:34 pm
However, the Brompton has a 3-speed rear hub and a dynamo front, so both are large hubs. I think you can sort of cobble together a fitting for a speed sensor with those, but it's not designed for them?
If it's an accelerometer-based speed sensor that attaches to the hub shell with an o-ring, it just needs a longer rubber band (or functionally equivalent bodge). The usual attachment method doesn't work very well if the hub shell is more spherical than cylindrical.
On the newer versions the O-ring is part of the structure, adn loops roudn to hook on the body, so bodge needed to extend it. I have an asymetric hub, but it works OK even when wonky.
Post by: Kim on 29 September, 2019, 09:08:34 pm
On the newer versions the O-ring is part of the structure, adn loops roudn to hook on the body, so bodge needed to extend it.
Well that's just shitty design. What happens when the rubber snaps?
Quote
I have an asymetric hub, but it works OK even when wonky.
I suspect these sensors don't care about orientation in the slightest, judging by the cadence sensor's ability to function in all sorts of positions on the crank or shoe.
Post by: ElyDave on 29 September, 2019, 09:23:32 pm
Post by: drossall on 29 September, 2019, 10:31:18 pm
Post by: drossall on 01 October, 2019, 04:24:47 pm
Garmin's wrist-based HR isn't as accurate as a chest strap though.I knew this, but I've been using my rehabilitation sessions to test it out. I wear my own Vivosmart on one wrist, and the provider's (Polar) watch, which uses a chest strap, on the other. For significant periods today, the Vivosmart was showing twice what the Polar read :o It did settle down in the end. Someone said that he had found that optical sensors take ages from when you first look at them (in a given session) until they start giving sensible readings.
I don't think I could place any faith in what the Vivosmart says (but then, I mainly got it as a step counter, and it seems fine on those). The physio staff keep saying that the best reading is with a finger on your neck. But that means taking your hands off the bars, and we know what happened to Chris Froome :o
Post by: fuaran on 01 October, 2019, 05:49:23 pm
Though I've had some mixed results from the Garmin Instinct wrist HR. Usually pretty good for running, but not so great for cycling or gym. A Polar OH1 (on the upper arm) is a lot more reliable for me.
Post by: drossall on 15 October, 2019, 10:43:50 pm
It's really helpful that the Sensor 2 can record mileage independently of a GPS "head" device, and that you don't have to remember to switch it on and off every time. What's more, it doesn't record you at 80mph when you've ridden to the station and got onto a train to get to work! (Because the wheel's not rotating.) However, there are issues:
* Once the phone and Sensor 2 are communicating, they don't seem to drop the connection, and the Sensor therefore stays awake as long as the two are in Bluetooth range of each other. This is bad for the batteries of both devices, and leads to the Sensor recording very long rides, during most of which you were not actually moving. If the Brompton lives by your desk at work, and on the train is also close to you, it may not go out of Bluetooth range all day.
* If you have a Touring Plus and Sensor 2 on the same bike, they don't communicate directly of course. However, Connect then doesn't seem to spot that two recorded rides are the same, and so does not deduplicate them - it has you doing two different rides at the same time, which is daft. As most of the logic must be in Connect, I can't really see why it couldn't do this, or allow the merging of activities.
* As I understand it, Connect should improve the calibration of a Sensor 2 using measurements from a GPS. This doesn't seem to happen with the Touring Plus, even though it's not obvious why it would depend on the Touring Plus and Sensor 2 connecting directly. This is probably linked to the previous point.
* As above, some Brompton folders have a three-speed rear hub and a front dynohub, so the Sensor strap doesn't fit either. A spare Cateye Nima light strap works well as an extension.
As I say, it does provide a means of recording commuting mileage without having constantly to switch a GPS on and off, but hope these points are of interest to anyone considering this approach.
Post by: Pingu on 09 November, 2019, 03:44:05 pm
Having owned quite a few GPS watches I have finally found one that suits my needs in the Amazfit Bip. Most astonishing is its battery life which lasts up to a month between charges even with frequent use of the GPS and HRM. The only slight issue that natively it doesn't export to Strava but there is a very good 3rd part app called "Notify and Fitness" which vastly enhances the functionality of the watch, including sync to Strava. I would say that you need to be fairly tech savvy to get the best out of it but it's well worth the learning curve and its only £63 on Amazon at the moment!
Mrs P bought an Amazeballs Bip and I've been trying it out. Yes the battery lasts a long time, but I doubt you'd get a month out of it with regular GPS use. Today's wee pootle used up nearly 20% of the charge. I haven't used assisted GPS as I don't have a smart phone. The GPX trace looks good enough for what I want to use it for though (just recording rides). I did a comparison with my eTrex today:
eTrex track (https://ridewithgps.com/trips/41812495) vs. Amazeballs track (https://ridewithgps.com/trips/41812870)
ETA: it does seem to take quite a while to find satellites when you start an activity.
Post by: Bolt on 09 November, 2019, 08:28:24 pm
Post by: Feanor on 09 November, 2019, 08:37:16 pm
So the almanac goes stale quite quickly.
And it's then quite slow to update via the sat channel.
My Suunto is the same.
If you just go for a run after a few days, it takes a minute or two to get a GPS lock.
But if you sync it with Suunto's web service either over PC/USB or Mobile App/Bluetooth first, then one of the things it does is update the GPS almanac.
Then it gets GPS lock within a couple of seconds.
Post by: Pingu on 19 November, 2019, 08:53:54 pm
Having owned quite a few GPS watches I have finally found one that suits my needs in the Amazfit Bip. Most astonishing is its battery life which lasts up to a month between charges even with frequent use of the GPS and HRM. The only slight issue that natively it doesn't export to Strava but there is a very good 3rd part app called "Notify and Fitness" which vastly enhances the functionality of the watch, including sync to Strava. I would say that you need to be fairly tech savvy to get the best out of it but it's well worth the learning curve and its only £63 on Amazon at the moment!
Mrs P bought an Amazeballs Bip and I've been trying it out. Yes the battery lasts a long time, but I doubt you'd get a month out of it with regular GPS use. Today's wee pootle used up nearly 20% of the charge. I haven't used assisted GPS as I don't have a smart phone. The GPX trace looks good enough for what I want to use it for though (just recording rides). I did a comparison with my eTrex today:
eTrex track (https://ridewithgps.com/trips/41812495) vs. Amazeballs track (https://ridewithgps.com/trips/41812870)
ETA: it does seem to take quite a while to find satellites when you start an activity.
I forgot to mention the size of the GPX files. The Amazeballs file is 10 times the size of the eTrex one. Part of that is explained by the Amazeballs having heart rate data, but it also has 5 times as many track points as the Garmin.
Post by: Bolt on 20 November, 2019, 11:45:19 pm
I forgot to mention the size of the GPX files. The Amazeballs file is 10 times the size of the eTrex one. Part of that is explained by the Amazeballs having heart rate data, but it also has 5 times as many track points as the Garmin.
I've never looked at the file size that the "amazeballs" creates and am intrigued as to how you are able to examine the file created by the watch, I'm guessing that you are pairing to a smartphone to parse and extract the file? If you're using the 3rd party "Notify and Fitness! app there are options to configure the format of the exported activity file, with the "Strava pace fix" switch seemingly giving more
I'm not sure what the maximum limit is of activity data that can be stored in the watch, but looking back at my current activity history on the watch it's showing around 400km of rides.
Post by: Pingu on 21 November, 2019, 08:49:05 pm
I forgot to mention the size of the GPX files. The Amazeballs file is 10 times the size of the eTrex one. Part of that is explained by the Amazeballs having heart rate data, but it also has 5 times as many track points as the Garmin.
I've never looked at the file size that the "amazeballs" creates and am intrigued as to how you are able to examine the file created by the watch, I'm guessing that you are pairing to a smartphone to parse and extract the file? If you're using the 3rd party "Notify and Fitness! app there are options to configure the format of the exported activity file, with the "Strava pace fix" switch seemingly giving moreoptimisticaccurate results of the exported activity. There is also an option to export to TCX format which should reduce the size of the file if this is an issue?
I'm not sure what the maximum limit is of activity data that can be stored in the watch, but looking back at my current activity history on the watch it's showing around 400km of rides.
Mrs P has an app on her phone to get the GPX files off the watch which she then emails to me. I look at the files in Basecamp on my lapdog.
I don't think the size is going to be an issue, I was just surprised is all.
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 21 November, 2019, 08:55:56 pm
Post by: Bolt on 23 November, 2019, 09:01:12 pm
I'm using Gadgetbridge with GPS Viewer, not Notify & Fitness.Interesting, thats a new on on me, I shall take a look
Does gadget bridge run alongside the official amazfit app?
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 09 December, 2019, 01:44:28 pm
I have both Mifit and Gadgetbridge installed but I'm really only using Gadgetbridge to connect and download the files from the watch. It appears that you then have to open them on GPSViewer for it to be saved to the phone. Or at least I haven't found where Gadgetbridge stores them.I'm using Gadgetbridge with GPS Viewer, not Notify & Fitness.Interesting, thats a new on on me, I shall take a look
Post by: drossall on 09 December, 2019, 10:13:16 pm
I've actually got a birthday coming up.. The final choice may be down to others ;DThanks to everyone who offered me advice in this thread. The generosity of others means that I've ended up with a Fenix 5 and Garmin HRM chest strap. I've also got a Speed Sensor 2 on the Brompton, to record commuting mileage, and another on my Audax bike. So rather more than I anticipated at the start!