Author Topic: what I have learned today.  (Read 864084 times)

Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2900 on: 15 November, 2018, 08:26:59 pm »
A telephone number isn't really a number though, it's an address.  This was probably more intuitive in the days of exchange names rather than STD codes, but we all know that they don't really count telephones, any more than house numbers count houses.  Standard ways of formatting addresses are useful.

I'm reminded of barakta's prehistoric Mac, which is so old that you have to enter its IPv4 address as a single decimal (or hexadecimal) number, rather than the dotted-quad representation we've become used to.  Semantically, it's actually the binary representation that's important (for computers to make "this network"/"other network" distinctions, much like a telephone exchange has to), but humans are even worse at long binary numbers than they are at long decimals.

I suppose dotted-quad IPv4 addresses are a bit like the French approach of using 5 two-digit numbers for telephones - a standard format that makes the address clearer to humans for accurate transcription, but is only loosely related to the underlying system.

(CIDR/E164 analogy left as an exercise for the reader)

I was with you up to the end of your first paragraph.....
Yebbut, don't know about you, but I could read it all day.
There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2901 on: 15 November, 2018, 09:20:00 pm »
A telephone number isn't really a number though, it's an address.  This was probably more intuitive in the days of exchange names rather than STD codes, but we all know that they don't really count telephones, any more than house numbers count houses.  Standard ways of formatting addresses are useful.

I'm reminded of barakta's prehistoric Mac, which is so old that you have to enter its IPv4 address as a single decimal (or hexadecimal) number, rather than the dotted-quad representation we've become used to.  Semantically, it's actually the binary representation that's important (for computers to make "this network"/"other network" distinctions, much like a telephone exchange has to), but humans are even worse at long binary numbers than they are at long decimals.

I suppose dotted-quad IPv4 addresses are a bit like the French approach of using 5 two-digit numbers for telephones - a standard format that makes the address clearer to humans for accurate transcription, but is only loosely related to the underlying system.

(CIDR/E164 analogy left as an exercise for the reader)

What the everlasting fuck are you on about?  ???  Do you do after-dinner speeches?

ian

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2902 on: 15 November, 2018, 09:29:10 pm »
It's like someone downloaded ESL into a computer.

Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2903 on: 15 November, 2018, 09:48:16 pm »
Does anyone want a history lesson about telephone numbers in the UK? If not, I’ll go back to my posting pause.  :)
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2904 on: 15 November, 2018, 09:53:22 pm »
Does anyone want a history lesson about telephone numbers in the UK? If not, I’ll go back to my posting pause.  :)

Go on then. I can remember my childhood exchange going from 0344 to 01344 and at another time the phone number went from XXXXX to 6XXXXX but the logic of the development is not one i know.

I am also aware that big cities got shorter exchange codes and longer local numbers while more rural exchanges tend to longer codes and fewer numbers.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2905 on: 15 November, 2018, 09:55:06 pm »
Here, let Tom Scott do it for you:
(Video contains bonus random CDC for extra YACF-compliance)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/LsxRaFNropw&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/LsxRaFNropw&rel=1</a>
https://youtu.be/LsxRaFNropw

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2906 on: 15 November, 2018, 10:14:52 pm »
I had seen that before but i suspect Beardy has inside knowledge and is no longer bound by professional silence to protect his employer.

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2907 on: 15 November, 2018, 10:28:43 pm »
Does anyone want a history lesson about telephone numbers in the UK? If not, I’ll go back to my posting pause.  :)
I do !!
Rust never sleeps

Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2908 on: 16 November, 2018, 01:02:15 am »
Ok then, with the proviso that this is all from memory, and I was trained as a telephone engineer when they were still extending the old clockwork (well, electro-mechanical, bit it still required a LOT of spring adjustments) exchanges, common control exchanges used either wire 'fingers' (Crossbar) or read switches Telephone eXchange Electronic (TXE) and the first all digital exchanges were still being developed.

Ok. Lesson 1
There were two fundamental kinds of local telephone exchange architecture in the Strowger automatic era, director, and non-director. The older of these two was the non-directory and is the basis of the UK numbering scheme. The director exchanges were a slightly later version of Strowger and were installed in the big cities. You’d recognise these as the 0XX XXX XXXX numbers in Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, Glasgow, Edinburgh and of course London. It was rumoured that Leeds and Bradford were going to be the next conurbation to receive a director system but the plans were overtaken by technology.

Lesson 2
Non-director numbering (as I was apprenticed to the post office telephone department in Bradford, this is the one I am more familiar with)
Before automatic exchanges (aka 'autos') numbering schemes were governed by the population size, and were 3 or 4 digits long. Exchanges were called by their town names. When auto came along the local numbers remained the same and each Telephone Area introduced local exchange dialling codes dependent upon traffic between specific exchanges with less common routes requiring longer local dealing codes and more common routes requiring shorter codes. Just about the only common feature in all these codes was that the parent Group Switching Centre was based in the local city and would be reached with a singe 9 (because that’s were the emergency operators were based and the first 9 of 999 took you there. It made things a LOT simpler for alsorts of technical and practical reasons. 0 of course, took you to the same switchboards, but didn’t light the read flashing light. Trunk calls needed an operator to assist as they needed to connect you via the truck network.

Lesson 3
STD. No, nothing to do with social diseases, and no, not Straight Throgh Dialing, but Subscriber Trunk Dialing. (No one owned a phone, but the Post Office and you subscribed to use the service. This was still the case when I started, and customers were generally referred to as 'subs').
Now this is where it gets both messy and simpler at the same time. Remember the brief mention of Director exchanges, well because of the densities of the areas they served a structure was very easy to impose. Each unit had a theoretical 9999 4 digit numbers  it I don’t think they were all used) and each unit had a 3 digit identity. Quite early on they realised that by adding letters to the dial, these digits didn’t need to be random and they could be a represented as a three letter 'pointer' at the geographical location of the unit. This idea was carried over to the STD numbering schemes as they were introduced, hence Bradford was 0274 and Brighton was 0273. No where near each other geographically, but alphabetically very close in a list of the GSCs at the time. These were what we referred to as the 0ABC digits. Next came the local area Dialing code from the GSC to the local exchange, which could be 1, 2 or 3 (or even 4) digits and finally the actual subs line number of 3, 4 or 5 digits. Although early on it will only have been the cities where you’d get 5 digits.

Because for the way that the telephone network grew almost organically, and because of the way local dialing codes were allocated according to traffic levels, it tended to be that bigger exchanges with longer subs numbers had shorter local dialing codes so on the whole, STD numbers tended to even themselves out to mostly 10 digits. Not a hard and fast rule, but mostly.

Lesson 4
Of course, in an early implementaof Moore’s law* telephones got cheaper and people became more affluent so more telephones were installed and more telephone numbers were required. In the early days of expansion (where Director exchanges weren’t introduced to meet heavy demand) exchange 'mults' (their number ranges) were increased by the simple expedient of adding an additional digit to the front of a number. You might have experienced this in the bigger towns and cities as the numbers were increased from 4 to 5 or 5 to 6 digits. But then some standardisation came along and it was decided that subs would have a 6 digit exchange number and an STD code of 3 digits (the first 0 isn’t counted) and that local dialing codes would be phased out. The STD codes were already 3 and  sometimes extended to include the local dialing codes. This was trimmed back to three and the subs number extended to include the local dialing code (where possible) Because of a combination of planning and serendipitous traffic requirements as described above, this was as far as the subs were concerned just a moving of a comma, and an education program to get them to dial 6 digits when they were calling Edna next door but one, instead of the 3 or 4 they were used to. Some changes though were more painful as changes had to be made where clashes would occur, especially where 5 digits were already in use. It also meant that some local codes between GSC areas that had been heavy traffic routes had to be withdrawn and the calls would need a full STD code to be dialled.

So that left us with 2 basic numbering standards, Director 0AB CDE XXXX where 0AB was the city CDE the unit, possibly geographically significant and XXXX the subs number AND Non-Director 0ABC DEXXXX where 0ABC were the city number, mostly geographically significant, DEXXXX the subs number, but DE being a specific town exchange. At this same time BT (who had just been created) decided to remove letters from the dial** /keypad because it was getting increasingly difficult to make the relevant numbers geo significant.

*might not be totally true :D
** This proved to be a mistake. A few opportunities were missed as a consequence of this, although the mobile letter to number allocation is different to the old dial layout, so it’s perhaps as well in the long run because it would have been hellishly confusing for everyone. We just need to get computer and telephone number pads the same way up now.

Lesson 5
Oftel/Ofcom and Massive expansion.
Not long after the creation of BT, Oftel was born and they took ownership of the UK telephone numbering schemes. The first big change was already in the pipeline and that was the splitting of London into two codes by making London the same as other Direcor areas and introducing additional digits at the front so 01 became 071 and 081 depending of your location and more importantly to BT allowed a doubling of the London numbers but kept the same logic across the board.  Then a bit later, Oftel decided that competition would benefit if they (Oftel) could give different competitors different number ranges and the bast way to do this was to add another digit in front. Completely contrary to Oftel/Ofcom normal logic, BT was given the digit 1 as a prefix and other operators given other digits. This wasn’t a strategical thought out plan because London by this time was growing even faster than any reasonable expectations and the numbers were going to run out again. But at this time all other areas in the uk in the BT network also received the prefix of 1. (Remember, the leadings 0 isn’t counted )
So when London did threaten to run out of numbers again, a whole new scheme was decided on and 020 became the code, but a prefix was added to the three digit unit code, but by this time I was a long ways away from my humble roots as a telephone engineer and I thing I was worrying about the millennium bug.

So that’s a potted history of how we got to where we are today, but of course with the advent of mobile phones we’ve all got used to numbers not really signifying location, or indeed any specific operator. For the time being however, number portability on the fixed line network is being resisted, though whether that’s the operators or Ofcom, I really couldn’t say. Certainly, it’s been technically possible to point any number at any network point since the completion of the digitalisation of the network as the number is only name and the actual address it is translated to is flexible. Though whether or not it’s worth the complexity of introducing such a scheme given the rat that  PSTN traffic is falling is perhaps debatable. Universal VoIP i recon will be here within the next decade.

I realise that my writing style is a bit of a core dump, so if you’ve got any questions I’ll try and answer them
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2909 on: 16 November, 2018, 05:38:13 am »
German numbers in pairs is just how people say them. It is so hard to write down though, as you cannot write consecutively.

Mind you, Brits do this with ‘double’. My number is 0171 double four double six three double nine double two is much harder to write down than 0171 four four six six three nine nine two two.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


ian

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2910 on: 16 November, 2018, 09:23:58 am »
I work with a company in Didcot. Yes, Didcot. And all their phone numbers are 020 7.

Which is cheating because Didcot numbers should be 0666 as everyone knows.

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2911 on: 16 November, 2018, 11:00:33 am »
Thank you Beardy.

My client company has multiple sites in our operating area however all the phone numbers are on the exchange at head office because all the phones are on the company VOIP system. So it doesn't matter if I am on site in Bray, Brighton, Farnborough or Canterbury they will still have an 01634 Maidstone number due to the Snodland head office.

Equally if I sit in the corporate office in London and log into my Jacobs phone system it will still have my Reading phone number.

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2912 on: 16 November, 2018, 12:16:09 pm »
There's an old-school type TV/appliance repair place near me that still has the sign up outside with the phone number dialing code as the 4 digit (without added 1) type. I mean, that was in 1995 (so Google tells me)! How long after that do you have to get around to thinking "Hmm, perhaps we should get the number on the sign changed"?

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2913 on: 16 November, 2018, 12:36:10 pm »
I work with a company in Didcot. Yes, Didcot. And all their phone numbers are 020 7.

Which is cheating because Didcot numbers should be 0666 as everyone knows.

I've re-purposed the one true dialling code for Didcot internally, for the extension that makes Satan, the evil vibrating alarm clock, ring.

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2914 on: 16 November, 2018, 06:04:51 pm »
Two further questions;

Some business phone numbers used to have ts suffix (n lines). How did that work?

And what about the MOD's apparently separate and parallel phone system?

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2915 on: 16 November, 2018, 06:08:44 pm »
There's an old-school type TV/appliance repair place near me that still has the sign up outside with the phone number dialing code as the 4 digit (without added 1) type. I mean, that was in 1995 (so Google tells me)! How long after that do you have to get around to thinking "Hmm, perhaps we should get the number on the sign changed"?

A TV repair place that's still in business has probably fallen through a wormhole from 1995.

Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2916 on: 16 November, 2018, 06:18:54 pm »
Business phone number options_used_ to be individual numbers, 2-10 lines on the same number, and 11 and over lines. The reason for this is that a two-motion Strowger selector had 10 outlets on a level with each level representing one digit. The system used one group-selector for each digit with the selector going up to the appropriate level according to the digit dialled and then ‘hunting’ for,the next free outlet for the next selector on that number. The final selector was different though, in that it was controlled vertically and horizontally be each of the last two digits dialled. However, a 2-10 final selector ‘hunted’ for the next free line (with those lines over the number installed for a specific customer being artificially ‘busied out’ A 11&over selector used an additional vertical bank and did some weired voodoo magic to find the next free line.
As for the MOD, I _could_ explain to you about overlay networks a other stuffs, but the I’d have to kill you utterly to DETH. Sorry*.

*killing you utterly to DETH would be more of an imposition on you than me, but these days I’m not really up to eating the evidence in a single sitting.  ;D
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

yorkie

  • On top of the Galibier
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2917 on: 16 November, 2018, 06:21:13 pm »
Two further questions;

Some business phone numbers used to have ts suffix (n lines). How did that work?


"n lines" means the number of incoming lines to the premises, ie. the maximum number of simultaneous calls that could be carried out at any one time.
And what about the MOD's apparently separate and parallel phone system?
British Rail also had their own phone network, larger than the MOD's!  ;) :D
I spent the 90's working for British Rail's Signals and Telecommunications department, in Telecomms. Initially, I was in York, working on the Switching Section, on the scheme to replace the Eastern Region's ancient Strowger PABXs** with brand spanking new digital PABXs. Guess who got the job of programming 9 x 3000 line exchanges!  ::-) Some of our switches had 30 or 60 lines in from BT to the switchboard, 30 or 60 lines for Direct Dial In to an internal number and 30 or 60 lines for dialling out.

** PABX = Private Automatic Branch eXchange.

I then got moved to Mordor, where I got to do Call Logging and Tracing (Internally to the BR network) as well as programming and collating Performance Stats. Then back to York and we all got made redundant after privatisation! Ar$e!  >:(


Edit: Slight X-post with Beardy (Who remembers a heck of a lot more about it than I do!)

 
Born to ride my bike, forced to work! ;)

British Cycling Regional A Track Commissaire
British Cycling Regional A Circuit Commissaire
Cycling Attendant, York Sport Village Cycle Circuit and Velodrome

ian

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2918 on: 16 November, 2018, 08:15:06 pm »
Sod your phone numbers, my mum is still waiting for a BT cream trimphone. They were apparently made from the lingering supplies of late 80s unobtainium.

Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2919 on: 16 November, 2018, 08:24:32 pm »
I can’t say I’ve ever seen a cream trimphone.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2920 on: 16 November, 2018, 08:52:54 pm »
Exactly
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2921 on: 16 November, 2018, 09:26:11 pm »
I can’t say I’ve ever seen a cream trimphone.

I discovered, quite by accident, that I could do a very passable impression of a trimfone. Unfortunately I was 12. Pity the receptionists in the hotel we were staying in...
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2922 on: 17 November, 2018, 08:23:08 am »
Point is, the phone number 3463 is said in English as separate digits "three four six three" whereas in German it's said as two pairs "thirty-four sixty-three".

With a notable exception: Four Eighty-Four Fifty-Two Five Five

What I have learned today: I still remember that jingle after 40 years or so.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2923 on: 17 November, 2018, 11:37:36 am »
Point is, the phone number 3463 is said in English as separate digits "three four six three" whereas in German it's said as two pairs "thirty-four sixty-three".

With a notable exception: Four Eighty-Four Fifty-Two Five Five

What I have learned today: I still remember that jingle after 40 years or so.
Is that an English or German number? Presumably English as you remember it, but it would seem to be an exception to both.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2924 on: 17 November, 2018, 11:41:23 am »
Yesterday I learnt the term Aframax. This sounds to me like it should be a style of music, a genre of maxxed out Afrobeat, probably with reggae crossover. Actually it's "Average Freight Rate Assessment Maximum" crude oil carrier. Larger than Panamax* but not as large as Suezmax.** Chartering an Aframax seems to cost around $19,000 a day – I reckon that should get you Fela Kuti and Bob Marley, perhaps Elvis Presley too!

*Ultra-wide screen cinema?
**Large-bore water mains?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.