what I have learned today.

[Feanor]

Oh, for heaven's sake!

"Hey, there's a word which you may not realise is considered offensive, which you must never use!"
"Oh, clue me in, so I don't use it accidentally!"
"Sorry, can't say it! Ha Ha! You'll just have to trip up on it yourself!"

This is a ludicrous Kafkaesque thing.
Context is important.
Discussing a word and informing people that it may be offensive is not the same thing as actually using the word to describe someone.

The word is "squaw".

[Flite]

The word is "squaw".

I'm old enough the have guessed that in the context of the post.
But I'm sick to the back teeth of people giving innocent words new meanings, or deciding that long-established words are now "offensive"

[Cudzoziemiec]

I agree with Feanor. When being told something is unacceptable, it's essential to be told what the unacceptable word or thing is (and why it's unacceptable), otherwise how can you avoid it?

I do have a vague memory of this earlier though. IIRC (but it's a vague memory so I quite likely don't) the word 'squaw' doesn't actually mean 'woman' (or girl, wife, mother, sister, daughter, etc) in its original language, but something like 'bitch' (in the female dog sense, but the both would apply). So I think it does make sense to change the names, particularly in areas where some people might still know the original language. But it's also an illustration of context and 'multiple Englishes' because in America it might be "an offensive ethnic, racial and sexist slur, particularly for Indigenous women" but in Britain it's just "The word we always used to describe girls who managed to infiltrate Cowboys and Indians Native Americans games".

[Kim]

I agree with Feanor. When being told something is unacceptable, it's essential to be told what the unacceptable word or thing is (and why it's unacceptable), otherwise how can you avoid it?

Language isn't 'bad' or 'unacceptable', so much as 'inappropriate'.  Meta-discussion of when you should or shouldn't use the word, explaining problematic meanings, or indeed just making people familiar with a term in the context of learning a language seems entirely appropriate to me.

[spesh]

<Obligatory Far Side cartoon>

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/attachments/farside-lone-ranger-jpg.37732/

 

[MattH]

Don't know if it's been edited to add, but that article does now contain

The word 'squaw' has historically been used as "an offensive ethnic, racial and sexist slur, particularly for Indigenous women", the department said.

[Cudzoziemiec]

They've added 'squaw'. Which is good and sensible.

[rogerzilla]

AIUI the offensiveness comes from the fact that only a few tribes used the word originally, but it was appropriated by the white man and used to refer to all NA women.  I suppose it's a bit like calling an Indian (i.e. someone from India) the P-word.

There is an urban myth that it translates to something like "pussy" but that's been debunked.

[Captain Nemo]

From my library shelves.

****WARNING***** the following references use the word "Indian".

The Dictionary of the American West compiled by Winfred Blevins (pub. Facts on File, New York 1993):
      "Squaw - An Indian woman. Used teasingly, it can also mean an Anglo woman. The word started life as an Algonquian term meaning 'wife', then became part of the lingua franca developed by the eastern Indians for purposes of trading and was carried west by frontiersmen according to J.L. Dillard in All-American English. The Plains Indians saw it as a white man's word and found it objectionable and almost all contemporary Indians find it objectionable."

Dictionary of Americanisms compiled by James Bartlett (1989 facsimile edition, orig. pub. 1849):
    "Squaw. (Narragansett Indian). An Indian woman. Mr. Duponceau, after giving a list of the languages and forms in which this word occurs, observes (Google Translate from the printed French) 'We see that the family of this word extends from the Knistenaux in Canada, and the Skoffies and Montagnards of Acadia, to the Nanticokes on the borders of Virginia.' Memoir sur les Languages d'Amerique du Nord, p333."

The tribes / peoples refered to by Duponceau are all part of the greater Algonquian people inhabiting the Eastern Seaboard (from the Great Lakes, through New England all the way down to Chesapeake Bay).

[Cudzoziemiec]

I suppose it's a bit like 'bint' which many find offensive but in the Arabic just means girl or daughter. Brought into English by soldiers stationed in the Middle East during WW1.

My favourite NatAm word is 'papoose'.

[barakta]

It looks like the name change was done after some research and investigation as well as consultation with Native American and local communities which I think is reasonable. It isn't rushed or reactionary, just perhaps an overdue recognition of the ground in racism that exists in many places.

However, I do believe if you are saying X word is now not appropriate, you do need to say what the word is. I see this in British Sign Language (BSL) where people will allude to a sign that lots of younger and second language signers don't know cos they were from before our time.

The sign for holiday in some dialects of BSL uses the flipping the bird handshape circling - this wasn't rude in the UK generally until North American GIs came here and introduced the flipping the bird as a rude gesture. We also now share a lot more visual media with North America so that's also been a probable source of it becoming rude to most of us alive today...

There's arguments about whether BSL should have to change cos of UK cultural changes or if those are losses of valuable language. I personally am a bit mercenary and feel that while it should be documented for linguistic history, we should recognise that Deaf people do not exist in isolation and that it is likely that along with other changes in BSL, the language will change. There is much more homogenisation of dialects for example than there used to be. Many people end up defaulting to "London Signs" cos they're most commonly seen online and media and people feel pressured to do so.

I am lucky my BSL tutor taught us both the flipping the bird sign for holiday and a number of other words which were  in the early stages of being phased out due to racism or racial stereotyping e.g. signs for Chinese, Jewish, Japan -- very much as "you should know these, what they mean, and possible context". There's also been some Black and South Asian Deaf people doing videos showing signs that they think should be treated like the N and P words are in English and should be avoided and indeed making it clear how often they've had those signs used at them by people in an intentionally violent manner.

[T42]

I agree with Feanor. When being told something is unacceptable, it's essential to be told what the unacceptable word or thing is (and why it's unacceptable), otherwise how can you avoid it?

Language isn't 'bad' or 'unacceptable', so much as 'inappropriate'.  Meta-discussion of when you should or shouldn't use the word, explaining problematic meanings, or indeed just making people familiar with a term in the context of learning a language seems entirely appropriate to me.

Inappropriate has become so laden with suggestions of male depravity that its use in other contexts has become inappropriate.

[Pingu]

As far as I can see that article doesn't actually tell you the word so I am none the wiser.

EDIT - found it by googling Loybas Hill, one of the new names. Like Roger I had no idea it was so derogatory!

From that article, 6th para : -

"The word 'squaw' has historically been used as "an offensive ethnic, racial and sexist slur, particularly for Indigenous women", the department said."

The article was edited. The word wasn't there when Auntie Helen (and I) first read it.

[hatler]

As far as I can see that article doesn't actually tell you the word so I am none the wiser.

EDIT - found it by googling Loybas Hill, one of the new names. Like Roger I had no idea it was so derogatory!

From that article, 6th para : -

"The word 'squaw' has historically been used as "an offensive ethnic, racial and sexist slur, particularly for Indigenous women", the department said."

The article was edited. The word wasn't there when Auntie Helen (and I) first read it.

Yup, I replied before getting to this page of the thread, so I've removed my now redundant post.

[Kim]

What Joule–Thomson inversion temperatures are and that hydrogen and helium have very low ones at atmospheric pressure.  In other words, your Mk 1 hydrogen leak will tend to heat up, rather than cooling down like normal gases.  Exciting!

[Mrs Pingu]

That reminds me, I haven't heard anyone talking about J-T effects at work for ages now...

[Cudzoziemiec]

That although you probably can't treat severe acute malnutrition with Nutella, it has been the inspiration for a punningly named product that does just that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumpy%27nut

[Ham]

That there is such a thing as a Ham Holy Burger. My life feels vindicated.

[Mr Larrington]

Sorry, this page isn't available.

Either it’s been discontinued…

[Ham]

Here's a trip advisor page - it's apparently an Italian chain https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g186338-d7179276-Reviews-Ham_Holy_Burger-London_England.html

[Mr Larrington]

Doesn’t seem terribly well thought-of…

[Ham]

Which only increases my feeling of affinity

[pcolbeck]

The US Army has no rank of Field Marshal and never has. They thought about it during WWII as they needed to create an equivalent rank but since one of those they wanted to promote to this new rank was George C Marshall (of The Marshall Plan fame) that would have resulted in there being a "Marshall Marshal" so they went with Five Star General instead.

[Cudzoziemiec]

That's a bit similar to what my sister was telling me about Navy ranks last weekend (her eldest is in the Navy). Captain and Commander are both ranks, but they're also both positions. So the captain of the ship might be a Captain or a Commander or neither, there might be a Captain on the ship, who nevertheless is not the captain of the ship.

[Captain Nemo]

...and then in Catch-22, we have the character called Major who is promoted to the rank of major. To add to the fun his first names are also Major Major.
Appointments to see him in his office can only be made for times when he is not in his office...