Author Topic: Solid white line overtaking rules...  (Read 14784 times)

Davef

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #50 on: 31 December, 2020, 02:33:58 pm »
So where there are solid lines overtaking a broken down vehicle would be a illegal in the suggested revision ? What about cyclists overtaking the massive tailback ?

Isn't this partly why the double white line concept was introduced in the first place, the single solid "absolutely do not cross" line was proving problematic.
When was that? I don't remember there ever being a single solid line.
You can have a single solid line accompanied by a dashed line meaning it is only ok to cross from one side. Always thought that was dangerous as you would not be able to get back.

That's a variant of the double white line.
Sorry I misunderstood.

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #51 on: 31 December, 2020, 03:10:58 pm »
So where there are solid lines overtaking a broken down vehicle would be a illegal in the suggested revision ? What about cyclists overtaking the massive tailback ?

The law for crossing solid white lines is not applicable to pedal cycles, including epacs. See paragraph 5 in the legislation. So cross at will, if you think it’s safe.  Just don’t attach a side car to your bike!

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/26/made

Davef

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #52 on: 31 December, 2020, 03:15:05 pm »
So where there are solid lines overtaking a broken down vehicle would be a illegal in the suggested revision ? What about cyclists overtaking the massive tailback ?

The law for crossing solid white lines is not applicable to pedal cycles, including epacs. See paragraph 5 in the legislation. So cross at will, if you think it’s safe.  Just don’t attach a side car to your bike!

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/26/made
The law about parking (paragraph 2(a)) does not apply to pedal cycles. The law about crossing the lines (2(b)) does.

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #53 on: 31 December, 2020, 05:04:06 pm »
So where there are solid lines overtaking a broken down vehicle would be a illegal in the suggested revision ? What about cyclists overtaking the massive tailback ?

The law for crossing solid white lines is not applicable to pedal cycles, including epacs. See paragraph 5 in the legislation. So cross at will, if you think it’s safe.  Just don’t attach a side car to your bike!

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/26/made
The law about parking (paragraph 2(a)) does not apply to pedal cycles. The law about crossing the lines (2(b)) does.

Though the qualification to 2(b) in para 6 would appear to allow a pedal cycle to cross the line to filter past a stationary tailback.

Davef

Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #54 on: 31 December, 2020, 05:30:41 pm »
So where there are solid lines overtaking a broken down vehicle would be a illegal in the suggested revision ? What about cyclists overtaking the massive tailback ?

The law for crossing solid white lines is not applicable to pedal cycles, including epacs. See paragraph 5 in the legislation. So cross at will, if you think it’s safe.  Just don’t attach a side car to your bike!

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/26/made
The law about parking (paragraph 2(a)) does not apply to pedal cycles. The law about crossing the lines (2(b)) does.

Though the qualification to 2(b) in para 6 would appear to allow a pedal cycle to cross the line to filter past a stationary tailback.
Not just pedal cycles, any vehicle can cross the lines to pass a stationary vehicle. Not sure if a queue would count as “a stationary vehicle”. Certainly stopping in a queue doesn’t count as stopping. The long and short, is that there are no special exceptions specifically for pedal cycles regarding crossing solid white lines.

Edit: particularly if the queue was caused by a hypothetical change in the law to disallow any exceptions to the crossing white lines to overtake.

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #55 on: 31 December, 2020, 06:34:00 pm »
So where there are solid lines overtaking a broken down vehicle would be a illegal in the suggested revision ? What about cyclists overtaking the massive tailback ?
Well you couldn't cross the white lines, any more than any other vehicle. But you generally don't overtake stationery traffic on a bike; you filter past it. So, if you could get past without crossing the lines, and it was safe on other considerations, why not?

Filtering vs overtaking is generally misunderstood, as I see it, when people talk about cyclists "undertaking" in city traffic. Again, generally, they aren't; they are filtering. That's still not always safe, but it's not undertaking. In broad terms, you can only undertake a vehicle if it's moving freely, and very few cyclists are capable of doing that to a motor vehicle.

So the only mention in the HC of cyclists and undertaking is to warn us, when we are turning left, to watch out for other cyclists undertaking us ;D

Davef

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #56 on: 31 December, 2020, 06:46:46 pm »
So where there are solid lines overtaking a broken down vehicle would be a illegal in the suggested revision ? What about cyclists overtaking the massive tailback ?
Well you couldn't cross the white lines, any more than any other vehicle. But you generally don't overtake stationery traffic on a bike; you filter past it. So, if you could get past without crossing the lines, and it was safe on other considerations, why not?

Filtering vs overtaking is generally misunderstood, as I see it, when people talk about cyclists "undertaking" in city traffic. Again, generally, they aren't; they are filtering. That's still not always safe, but it's not undertaking. In broad terms, you can only undertake a vehicle if it's moving freely, and very few cyclists are capable of doing that to a motor vehicle.

So the only mention in the HC of cyclists and undertaking is to warn us, when we are turning left, to watch out for other cyclists undertaking us ;D
Filtering is just a type of overtaking or passing. I don’t believe the term filtering is used in the legislation, thought it does appear in the Highway Code. Unless it was a no overtaking zone and you did not cross the line to overtake, that would indeed be fine. Overtaking on the left hand side is not specifically an offense though discouraged in code apart from in exceptional circumstances.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #57 on: 31 December, 2020, 06:56:04 pm »
Filtering vs overtaking is generally misunderstood, as I see it, when people talk about cyclists "undertaking" in city traffic. Again, generally, they aren't; they are filtering. That's still not always safe, but it's not undertaking. In broad terms, you can only undertake a vehicle if it's moving freely, and very few cyclists are capable of doing that to a motor vehicle.
I undertook a taxi yesterday.  ;D It was trying to overtake a bus on a very short length of city-centre dual carriageway but a car just behind it had come off the roundabout in the r/h lane and got there first. In the meantime, he'd moved far enough right and still at bus speed that I'd got past him. In any case, it was a bus lane and the bus was stopping in the bus stop about 15m further on, with my turning immediately past the bus stop. (No white lines were crossed in the making of this post. Nor red lines.)
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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #58 on: 31 December, 2020, 07:18:41 pm »
To be fair, my previous statement was based on trying to make sense of the HC, and on the premise that undertaking per se is not allowed. By contrast it's clear that (again, subject to general considerations of safety), two-wheelers are allowed to filter, on either side. The problem is that terms don't seem to be defined anywhere.

I'm prepared to be corrected, but I think that it is very unlikely that an exemption to the general rules on undertaking exists for two-wheelers - i.e. that we are allowed in general to undertake on the left, say pedal cyclists downhill when a motor vehicle was travelling at a (low) speed limit. And I'm pretty certain that motorbikes, which are allowed to filter between traffic lanes, are not allowed to undertake at the speed limit. All vehicles are allowed to filter, for example when two lanes of traffic are moving at different (low) speeds, so I've always seen the acceptance in the HC of filtering by two-wheelers as more of a recognition that we don't always need a painted lane to have space to do that safely. Specific exemptions to rules for particular classes of vehicle are, I think, quite rare.

So some people talk about undertaking by filtering as being permissible, where I've tried to use undertaking only in its obvious sense of overtaking on the left, in which case it's only ever allowed where lanes are dividing into separate roads and so on. As I noted, the HC never talks about bikes undertaking, except for the case I cited where bikes are undertaking other bikes, the point being as I see it that both are probably moving freely, whereas bikes don't often pass freely-moving cars on either side. (I did once catch a veteran car rally while riding a time trial, so I overtook a few that day, but in the usual way on the right!)

It would, I think, be useful if the HC could define its own terms!

Jack_P

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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #59 on: 31 December, 2020, 09:18:46 pm »
Didn't know about the speed rules on overtaking on solid white lines, and I'd suspect most don't.

One thing that amazes me in the UK is the amount of single carriageway roads that are known death spots for head on collisions.
There are at least three near me with signs telling you how many deaths each year, do they call them red routes?

Why not adopt the USA style solid yellow line, no overtaking ever, and if you do you, then you loose your licence for a year say. maybe people would just accept they are in a queue and listen to their radio and relax rather than trying to save a few seconds overtaking.

arabella

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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #60 on: 01 January, 2021, 05:41:00 pm »
Given the number of motorists that overtake and then screech to a halt because there's a junction/the road narrows and something is coming the other way I doubt any change will make any difference ...

I had a chance to ask a couple of them (when I caught them again) why they'd overtaken me and then braked.

motorist #1: ended with "get off the road"
me: you what?

I was slightly better prepared for motorist #2
motorist #2: what was I supposed to do, there was something coming the other way
me: well, either you could see the something coming the other way and you shouldn't overtake cos you can't finish overtaking safely, or you couldn't see far enough ahead and you shouldn't have overtaken because you didn't know it was safe
motorist #2: you mean I have to WAIT
me: that's what the highway code says, yes.
etc.  Though we parted amicably enough.
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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #61 on: 01 January, 2021, 06:09:01 pm »
Didn't know about the speed rules on overtaking on solid white lines, and I'd suspect most don't.

One thing that amazes me in the UK is the amount of single carriageway roads that are known death spots for head on collisions.
There are at least three near me with signs telling you how many deaths each year, do they call them red routes?

Why not adopt the USA style solid yellow line, no overtaking ever, and if you do you, then you loose your licence for a year say. maybe people would just accept they are in a queue and listen to their radio and relax rather than trying to save a few seconds overtaking.

Yeah:  I sort of suggested that upthread and you can see how well that went amongst a group of cyclists.  Just imagine how a bunch of motons applying good old British common sense will react ...

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #62 on: 09 August, 2023, 03:32:58 pm »
Sorry for the thread necromany, but I've just seen this thread while looking for something else.....
There's a length of road near me that has always confused me when it comes down to overtaking cyclists (and parking come to that).

It's a road perhaps slightly longer than the posted 1/2 mile with 'No overtaking signs' (red & black car, side by side) and a dotted white line (here : https://goo.gl/maps/FTLbqwvz3uAAcV939 ) - it's straight road, a bit lumpy which restricts sight lines a little.

May a motorist legally overtake a cyclist along here? Do the 'double white line' speed restrictions apply to overtaking slow moving vehicles?
For bonus points maybe you can tell me why the HA would use these signs rather than double white lines?
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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #63 on: 09 August, 2023, 03:51:44 pm »
How about this

"Double white lines do not mean no overtaking! They mean that you must not cross the solid line if it is on your side. It is perfectly legal to overtake on DWLs if you can do so without crossing the white lines (for example passing a motorcycle on a WS2).

The no overtaking sign means just that even if you can do so without crossing the center line, so the restriction is different and sometimes is more appropriate than DWLs. There have been examples where both DWLs and no overtaking signs have been used. For example the now replaced Bailey Bridge on the A71 used to have both."

So, the signs are an absolute, including horses, cyclists and other slower moving vehicles.
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #64 on: 09 August, 2023, 03:53:38 pm »
They probably haven't used DWL there because the road is not quite wide enough to meet whatever the standard or recommendation is.
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Jaded

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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #65 on: 09 August, 2023, 04:00:02 pm »
How about this

"Double white lines do not mean no overtaking! They mean that you must not cross the solid line if it is on your side. It is perfectly legal to overtake on DWLs if you can do so without crossing the white lines (for example passing a motorcycle on a WS2).

However you need to give a cyclist as least as much room as you would a car. So unlikely you can do it legally. If the cyclist is doing less than 10mph, you can cross the white line.
It is simpler than it looks.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #66 on: 09 August, 2023, 04:05:01 pm »
Double white lines also carry a no parking restriction (iirc)

A single white line is an absolutely must never cross even if instructed by polis

No overtaking just means that, so parking fine, passing it fine, boot it past someone crawling at 5mph bad sort of fine.

The weirdest must be the "no double white lines" sign between crathes and braemar

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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #67 on: 09 August, 2023, 05:02:21 pm »
Double white lines also carry a no parking restriction (iirc)

A single white line is an absolutely must never cross even if instructed by polis

No overtaking just means that, so parking fine, passing it fine, boot it past someone crawling at 5mph bad sort of fine.

The weirdest must be the "no double white lines" sign between crathes and braemar

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Single white lines in the centre of the carriageway aren't even defined in the TSRGD. They have no legal meaning without special authorisation.

Incidentally the same applies to double white lines where they're used in dual carriageway tunnels. The TSRGD is specific about them dividing two directions of travel:

And thus this is not kosher:


Regardless, the police have the power to instruct you to contravene road laws, you'd be duty-bound to cycle on a motorway if they so told you to do.

Afasoas

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #68 on: 24 September, 2023, 11:35:58 am »
Just thinking about any potential proposal to increase the 10 mph no overtake restriction to 20 mph.
I'd be concerned about the small speed differential and thus the greater length of time the overtaking manouvre takes, which increases risk when the manouvre is poorly judged.

If we take, for example, the scenario where the cyclist is doing evens and the driver approaching from behind is doing 40 mph (the NSL for articulated lorries on single carriageways - which seems to be the effective speed restriction most of the time around here on many well used unrestricted roads due to traffic etc..), that manouvre is going to take ~twice as long, versus cyclist travelling at less than 10 mph.

Also have to take into account that some roads will have one/more solid white lines and a speed restriction lower than NSL.

It would be nice if common sense did truly prevail, making the rule unnecessary.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #69 on: 24 September, 2023, 01:49:30 pm »
I thought the NSL for HGVs had been raised to 50 a few years ago, other than in Scotland.
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Afasoas

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #70 on: 24 September, 2023, 02:32:16 pm »
I thought the NSL for HGVs had been raised to 50 a few years ago, other than in Scotland.

You are correct.
I don't drive that much, but every couple of weeks I do 50 mile round trip across country, majority on NSL single carriageway - popular with HGVs. I set the speed limiter for 50 mph* (van) and often times I'm doing 40-45 in traffic.

*by GPS

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #71 on: 24 September, 2023, 04:39:14 pm »
Sorry for the thread necromany, but I've just seen this thread while looking for something else.....
There's a length of road near me that has always confused me when it comes down to overtaking cyclists (and parking come to that).

It's a road perhaps slightly longer than the posted 1/2 mile with 'No overtaking signs' (red & black car, side by side) and a dotted white line (here : https://goo.gl/maps/FTLbqwvz3uAAcV939 ) - it's straight road, a bit lumpy which restricts sight lines a little.

May a motorist legally overtake a cyclist along here? Do the 'double white line' speed restrictions apply to overtaking slow moving vehicles?
For bonus points maybe you can tell me why the HA would use these signs rather than double white lines?
This is an interesting question, and most of the answers seem to address the last sentence more than the main question. If there are "No overtaking" signs, is it permitted to overtake a cyclist? There's no obvious reason why the law would be different from that for overtaking another motor vehicle. The guidance in the HC for double-white lines clearly only applies to those. For that matter, the ban would apply equally to cyclists overtaking very-slow-moving vehicles, such as the veteran-car-rally participants I overtook in one time trial. Or, for that matter, to cyclists overtaking other cyclists!

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #72 on: 24 September, 2023, 04:45:09 pm »
I'm fairly sure that on Barmouth bridge there is a no overtaking sign, as described above, with the additional plate "Except of one cyclist by another cyclist." This implies that normally the sign would ban overtaking of cyclists (and horses etc) by motor vehicles and by cyclists of motor vehicles, horses, cyclists, etc.
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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #73 on: 24 September, 2023, 06:09:29 pm »
I'm fairly sure that on Barmouth bridge there is a no overtaking sign, as described above, with the additional plate "Except of one cyclist by another cyclist." This implies that normally the sign would ban overtaking of cyclists (and horses etc) by motor vehicles and by cyclists of motor vehicles, horses, cyclists, etc.
The one I know of is is the Menai Bridge

Wowbagger

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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #74 on: 24 September, 2023, 06:17:11 pm »
I'm fairly sure that on Barmouth bridge there is a no overtaking sign, as described above, with the additional plate "Except of one cyclist by another cyclist." This implies that normally the sign would ban overtaking of cyclists (and horses etc) by motor vehicles and by cyclists of motor vehicles, horses, cyclists, etc.

Barmouth Bridge has only pedestrians, bicycles and trains. The trains, IIRC, are restricted to 10 mph lest they shake the wooden structure to pieces.
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