Author Topic: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.  (Read 40167 times)

DanialW

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #150 on: 14 March, 2011, 10:27:06 pm »
Just a knee jerk reaction.....
I guess if they were reliable and cheap enough, it could one day make sense, but I don't think I agree with the mandatory route philosophy. Without GPS or data-loggers, you could have the problem of deciding how far off route you were allowed to go before a fail; or would you insist on 100% compliance? Even if you could police it anyway without GPS. So if I suffered a mechanical and had to divert to a local bike shop, I get hit by a double whammy because I've got to return to the exact point I left the official route to resume?

The dilemma you describe could be solved with more controls. Since the controls would need neither a stamp nor an info, there wouldn't be the resultant burden on the organiser or rider.

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #151 on: 14 March, 2011, 11:31:08 pm »
I'm told that a fashion emerged in university lectures for sending one student along with a recording device per colleague. Everyone except the person rostered for that day stayed in bed.

I'm seeing this vision of an AUK, saddlebag stuffed with GPS tracking devices, riding into the distance, and everyone else sat in the cafe near the start for the day...

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #152 on: 15 March, 2011, 12:01:54 am »
Audax isn't just distance and time though. It is Paris-Brest-Paris not 'round in circles for 1200.0 km'.

Yes. ACP explicitly deprecates multiple loops or routes that pass close to the finish. That's one of the reasons I'm so fond of the Welsh 600.

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #153 on: 15 March, 2011, 08:13:12 am »
We're getting perilously close to, instead of being a long-distance cycling association, being an association for preventing the riding of short distances :demon:

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #154 on: 15 March, 2011, 08:34:58 am »
We're getting perilously close to, instead of being a long-distance cycling association, being an association for preventing the riding of short distances :demon:

That's silly. We're not trying to stop anyone riding short distances, sportives, races or any other kind of event. We're merely offering one particular discipline for those who wish to ride long, very long, and even longer distances.

TOBY

  • hello
Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #155 on: 15 March, 2011, 09:16:08 am »
I'm told that a fashion emerged in university lectures for sending one student along with a recording device per colleague. Everyone except the person rostered for that day stayed in bed.

I'm seeing this vision of an AUK, saddlebag stuffed with GPS tracking devices, riding into the distance, and everyone else sat in the cafe near the start for the day...

It'll never happen, if I put my data logger in a bag with everyone elses it rules out being first back and the win  ;)

Martin

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #156 on: 15 March, 2011, 09:33:37 am »
I had a quick google for data loggers; £25 minimum for a key fob job. I presume a track derived from normal gps devices would be OK; I want to follow the route as well as prove where I've been.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #157 on: 15 March, 2011, 09:46:28 am »
I'm told that a fashion emerged in university lectures for sending one student along with a recording device per colleague. Everyone except the person rostered for that day stayed in bed.

I'm seeing this vision of an AUK, saddlebag stuffed with GPS tracking devices, riding into the distance, and everyone else sat in the cafe near the start for the day...

It'll never happen, if I put my data logger in a bag with everyone elses it rules out being first back and the win  ;)

Hang your logger from the handlebars...
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #158 on: 15 March, 2011, 09:55:21 am »
I'm told that a fashion emerged in university lectures for sending one student along with a recording device per colleague. Everyone except the person rostered for that day stayed in bed.

Yeah, and when he got to the lecture hall he found a podium with a tape machine replaying on it ...
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #159 on: 15 March, 2011, 09:58:32 am »
I had a quick google for data loggers; £25 minimum for a key fob job. I presume a track derived from normal gps devices would be OK; I want to follow the route as well as prove where I've been.

As you yourself said earlier, using an alternative device instead of the supplied kit would be unworkable.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Martin

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #160 on: 15 March, 2011, 10:25:46 am »
going back to the info control issue; I presume historically Audax routes worked on the basis that the rider was following a route sheet and thus had no idea at any time where they were (apart from near a town denoted in capitals) and certainly would have no idea how to get to another info control not via the proper route.

in this day and age many riders have a gpx so it's easy. In which case the info control as we know it is often useless in maintaining distance integrity...

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #161 on: 15 March, 2011, 10:28:51 am »
going back to the info control issue; I presume historically Audax routes worked on the basis that the rider was following a route sheet and thus had no idea at any time where they were (apart from near a town denoted in capitals) and certainly would have no idea how to get to another info control not via the proper route...

No. They were advised to carry maps.

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #162 on: 15 March, 2011, 10:29:28 am »
going back to the info control issue; I presume historically Audax routes worked on the basis that the rider was following a route sheet and thus had no idea at any time where they were (apart from near a town denoted in capitals) and certainly would have no idea how to get to another info control not via the proper route.

Only if they had no idea how to read a map.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Martin

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #163 on: 15 March, 2011, 10:31:34 am »
of course if you really want to cut short the route avoiding the proper route, infos and even proper controls I'd recommend a Vista HcX

like mine  :-\

TOBY

  • hello
Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #164 on: 15 March, 2011, 10:35:13 am »
I'm told that a fashion emerged in university lectures for sending one student along with a recording device per colleague. Everyone except the person rostered for that day stayed in bed.

I'm seeing this vision of an AUK, saddlebag stuffed with GPS tracking devices, riding into the distance, and everyone else sat in the cafe near the start for the day...

It'll never happen, if I put my data logger in a bag with everyone elses it rules out being first back and the win  ;)

Hang your logger from the handlebars...

as the actress said to the bishop

JayP

  • You must be joking
Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #165 on: 15 March, 2011, 11:41:31 am »
I'm told that a fashion emerged in university lectures for sending one student along with a recording device per colleague. Everyone except the person rostered for that day stayed in bed.

Yeah, and when he got to the lecture hall he found a podium with a tape machine replaying on it ...

I remember buying a course textbook and noting that it was written by the guy delivering the course. 'That's the way to do it' I thought. When I went to the first lecture we were all seated and a caretaker wheeled a telly-on-a-trolley into the room and inserted a video. It was just a head and shoulders shot of the lecturer reading verbatim from his own damn text book. I remember how riveting was the delivery of his Fortran implementation of the Chinese Postman Problem (or something).

But, speaking of Chinese Postmen, the problem of Audax route measurement, as explained to me when I began this game, was that an Audax route interpolated a sequence of control points so postioned that any trail through them would be at least the nominal distance. So controls compulsory, choose your own route. As a rider I liked that very much and still do. As an organiser and keen DIY’er I know how irritating this can be when you have to cock-up your creation with an absurd dog-leg to ‘bring it up to distance’. But I am happy to live with that. Long live the free route!
I am sure that, if Audax survives long enough, gps technology will trivialise the difficulties people have pointed out in this thread.
There is one thing that pricks my conscience though; that’s when I deviate from the organiser supplied route on an AAA rated ride. I don’t ‘collect’ these but I regularly get them. I think we should regularise this situation by giving riders an opt-out of AAA. Then the organiser-supplied routes of AAA’d events should be compulsory for those opted in.  I wouldn’t expect anyone to police this but at least we could make it clear to all that short/long cutting the hills on AAA events and then accepting the AAA points IS cheating.

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #166 on: 15 March, 2011, 01:05:50 pm »
in this day and age many riders have a gpx so it's easy. In which case the info control as we know it is often useless in maintaining distance integrity...

It'll only work when all riders have a GPS (very unlikely), or Audax UK have enough key loggers that they can be distributed to organisers.

Looking back at some of the results you find this weekend in 2010:-
          10-759  Hailsham 306                                 17 Apr        21
          10-119  Wolverley 305                                17 Apr        87
          10-91  Alfreton 212                                 17 Apr        53
          10-751  Midhurst 112                                 17 Apr        33
          10-164  Alltwen 201                                  17 Apr        12
          10-644  Galashiels 202                               18 Apr        34
          10-714  Woodham Mortimer 106                         18 Apr        47
          10-664  Bishops Lydeard 113                          18 Apr        12
          10-162  Hebden Bridge 110                            18 Apr       162
          10-715  Woodham Mortimer 202                         18 Apr        36
          10-904  Bishops Lydeard 216                          18 Apr        17
          10-125  Shenstone 160                                18 Apr        67
          10-663  Bishops Lydeard 114                          18 Apr        53
          10-102  Maidenhead 104                               18 Apr        43
          10-166  Woodham Mortimer 156                         18 Apr        40
          10-126  Shenstone 213                                18 Apr        17
          10-161  Hebden Bridge 53                             18 Apr        47
          10-124  Shenstone 102                                18 Apr       136
          10-662  Bishops Lydeard 64                           18 Apr         7
           10-92  Maidenhead 62                                18 Apr        10

That's a total of 934 finishers over a single weekend. At £25 a pop that's close to £25000 of key loggers if you assume there were 1,000 starters and only ~5% DNF.

That's a lot of extra stuff to have to keep posting around between organisers, especially if they need to be insured each time they're posted, etc.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

DanialW

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #167 on: 15 March, 2011, 01:36:57 pm »
It'll only work when all riders have a GPS (very unlikely), or Audax UK have enough key loggers that they can be distributed to organisers.

It'd have to be standard equipment. I did a small test in 2009 on The Cambrian using riders' GPS units, and it was far too much trouble.

The biggest obstacles we would face are the cost of loggers, the battery power of loggers, and the software and processes to underpin the technology. We can manage the third of the obstacles, but not the first two.

I've seen loggers as cheap as £13. Presumably they can be bought even cheaper with a discount. They're not good enough yet for anything longer than a 200km event, although even that would cover 95% of the riders on Audax UK events.

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #168 on: 15 March, 2011, 04:58:47 pm »
It'll only work when all riders have a GPS (very unlikely), or Audax UK have enough key loggers that they can be distributed to organisers.

It'd have to be standard equipment. I did a small test in 2009 on The Cambrian using riders' GPS units, and it was far too much trouble.

The biggest obstacles we would face are the cost of loggers, the battery power of loggers, and the software and processes to underpin the technology. We can manage the third of the obstacles, but not the first two.

I've seen loggers as cheap as £13. Presumably they can be bought even cheaper with a discount. They're not good enough yet for anything longer than a 200km event, although even that would cover 95% of the riders on Audax UK events.
Danial, I know it's interesting to play with all these new toys and as you know I'm a keen GPS user, but can you explain to me exactly problem you're trying to solve by experimenting with data-loggers? (I'm not being facetious, it's just that with so many postings, I've lost the gist of the argument.)

AndyH

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #169 on: 18 March, 2011, 09:46:14 am »
Danial, I know it's interesting to play with all these new toys and as you know I'm a keen GPS user, but can you explain to me exactly problem you're trying to solve by experimenting with data-loggers? (I'm not being facetious, it's just that with so many postings, I've lost the gist of the argument.)
No need for Brevet cards
Controls can be anywhere, routes wouldn't have to be based around 24hour service stations
Rides can be validated very quickly at the end. In theory your results could be online before you get home!
No need for info controls with their associated problems.

Why would the data loggers have to be the property of AUK & shipped around to different orgs as required? Why couldn't AUK manage volume purchasing and sell the loggers at cost to riders who wanted to use them? The org would download the data at the end, the rider than takes his logger home and charges it up ready for the next one.

LEE

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #170 on: 18 March, 2011, 10:07:40 am »
I have an increasing sense of pissed-offness that has urged me to solicit opinions from my fellow Audax riders - if nothing else as a means of gaining perspective.

I understand that a 'handfull'' of routes have been pulled by their organisers because the powers that be have identified that the rides need more info controls to avoid riders taking shortcuts or the shortest path between controls.

Events close to me (that I know of) that have been pulled include the Winter Randonee and the Faccombe Haul, both of which are fine and well organised rides.

I understand that other rides have had to add more controls (one 100 event has been asked to have 8 controls to ensure that riders do not 'cheat') and the Midhurst 600 last year ended up 13km over distance because of a disagreement between the organiser and AUK on the length of the longest leg.

I guess my questions are these:

1. We don't get points for a 100 but these events can be great rides for all sorts of reasons. Why do we need strict controls on a 100k at all? Especially as I understand that Brevet cards are now validated by the organiser.

2. Where does the paranoia over riders taking short cuts come from? If you enter a >200, surely you want to ride a >200. Does anyone get the route and go "right, how can I trim this down to 195k"?

3. I might be in the minority but I don't carry a bike computer or GPS and rely entirely on the route sheet for instructions. If a 200 is only 197k or is actually 205k, I don't really care. Does anyone else?
Hmmmmmmmmm?

H

No I don't care.

I don't care how quickly or slowly people ride an Audax and I don't care if they cheat and drive the whole thing in their car.

Personally I'd be willing to take everyone at their word and just have a start/finish control.

You could have 100 controls but it would still be possible to cheat and use a car.

If someone wants to cheat then let them.  There's no prize money involved.

The very hilly Faccombe Haul 100 is, as Hummers says, a sad loss.  It's impossible to "police" the route as it's a twisty double figure-8 that allows for umpteen short-cuts to avoid tough climbs, but why would you enter an extremely hilly AAA event and short-cut the hills?  More to the point, why would we care if someone "cheated" by doing so?  It's their loss and their sad life.

If I enter a tough ride (I'll cite the Wuze 400) then it's because I want to ride the tough route as per the route-sheet.  If I start looking for ways to make it an easy 400 then I really should have entered an easier 400.

If people are making rides easier and then claiming they did the a longer/tougher route then that's for them to live with, I couldn't care less. (Actually that's not true, I did keep meeting someone on the Wuze400, at controls, who somehow kept arriving before me, despite me leaving them behind each time.  Their claims of "Phew that was a hilly stage" did start to annoy me but the ride was ultimately about whether I could do it, not them).

</bovvered>

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #171 on: 18 March, 2011, 10:25:45 am »
Lee, you are spot on!
Organiser of Droitwich Cycling Club audaxes.  https://www.droitwichcyclingclub.co.uk/audax/

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #172 on: 18 March, 2011, 10:48:46 am »
If I enter a tough ride (I'll cite the Wuze 400) then it's because I want to ride the tough route as per the route-sheet.  If I start looking for ways to make it an easy 400 then I really should have entered an easier 400.

*cough*

Bryan Chapman Memorial 2009

;)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

LEE

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #173 on: 18 March, 2011, 11:01:34 am »
If I enter a tough ride (I'll cite the Wuze 400) then it's because I want to ride the tough route as per the route-sheet.  If I start looking for ways to make it an easy 400 then I really should have entered an easier 400.

*cough*

Bryan Chapman Memorial 2009

;)

Well spotted but 2 things:

I won't be riding that A-road this year either (I've never claimed to have ridden it). 

I don't think the A road is particularly difficult in the grand scheme of the BCM and it's actually shorter than the scenic, east-side of the river route I like to take.  It's not like bypassing Pen-Y-Pass.

Martin

Re: Shortest distance between controls and info controls.
« Reply #174 on: 18 March, 2011, 02:15:19 pm »
The Faccombe Haul ran for a whole "never" after it was absorbed into the extended GdS region; I did it once and everyone thought the GdS was a really good idea. They never got the chance.

Why was it pulled? because you could in theory go round round and pick up the second info on the same loop (ie cheat)

for 0 points and 1.5 or 1.75 AAA, just which AAA points champ is going to target events like that?  ???