Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Freewheeling => Racing => Topic started by: Karla on 05 July, 2014, 08:42:03 pm

Title: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Karla on 05 July, 2014, 08:42:03 pm
So, who spent lots of points on Cav in their fantasy league?  Ouch.  He's got a separated shoulder, which apparently involves torn ligaments - can any of the forum medics elucidate?  Whatever it is, it doesn't look good for his prospects.  Jens did truly excellent work to liven up the stage though, and Cancellara really messed up the finish for the sprinters' teams.  That was certainly a grand depart!
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: bobb on 05 July, 2014, 09:23:06 pm
Unless there's varying degrees of seriousness of AC joint fucking up, I can't see him carrying on. A mate of mine did the same thing some years ago and he was in a lot of pain and out of action for some time. The only difference being he fell off an ironing board rather than a bicycle  :P
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: yoav on 06 July, 2014, 08:39:35 am
It's disruption of the AC (achromio-clavicular) joint where the far end of the collar bone meets the shoulder blade. It isn't usually surgically fixed but allowed to heal naturally. However, it is very painful and for a pro bike racer (or any regular cyclist) to be off the bike for a long time is a no no.

A friend of mine who is a decent club racer did this but the local orthopaedic surgeon wouldn't fix it. After a few months of pain and inability to ride his bike, he found another surgeon who was willing to operate on it and lo and behold, my friend was back on the bike soon after.

I don't know the latest with Cav but I suspect that if he finds it too painful to carry on then he'll be seeing a surgeon soon.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Jakob on 06 July, 2014, 09:41:06 am
Good thing he didn't manage to injure anyone else, because that was a boneheaded move.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: woollypigs on 06 July, 2014, 09:58:16 am
Well I think more people will remember when the Tour came to Yorkshire because of the fall.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Ruth on 06 July, 2014, 02:08:32 pm
I can't believe he changed his shoe without getting off!  Socks with cleats mebbe?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Karla on 07 July, 2014, 06:01:20 pm
I'm still re-living Jens's attack, that was a hilarious moment of watching the other two escapees realising with horror that he hadn't just been going for the sprint points, at the same moment as we realised it ourselves.

I haven't watched today's stage though, so am quite glad this thread doesn't have any spoilers from today yet!
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: LEE on 07 July, 2014, 06:07:52 pm
from the BBC, Cav's crash

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76076000/jpg/_76076908_cav_crash_epa.jpg)

The (supermarket) sign should have been a warning.

Carrefour: A Converging point or Crossroads.

Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Julian on 07 July, 2014, 06:08:11 pm
I went down to the Embankment to watch it (me and every other lawyer in the Temple!)  Got a really nice vantage point on top of some art installation in Temple Gardens :D 

They whistled past at the speed of light and by the time I was back in chambers (2 minutes walk) the stage was over so I'll have to catch up on that later.  There were clear breakaway groups by the time they got to Embankment.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Jaded on 07 July, 2014, 09:52:01 pm
According to the BBC front page:

(click to show/hide)

So that's it then.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 08 July, 2014, 09:53:21 pm
Anyone know how Froome and Mollema dropped a couple of places in GC today without losing any time?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 08 July, 2014, 10:03:18 pm
A lot of riders are 2 seconds down on Nabali, so the order those guys sits in GC is based on the position they've finished in the stages.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Pingu on 08 July, 2014, 10:30:56 pm
Guessing Froome's not looking forward to the cobbles tomorrow.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Deano on 08 July, 2014, 10:35:39 pm
Aye, triple padding on the bars!

Could be good news for my dad if Froome drops out - he's got an e/w bet on Thomas at 500/1.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 09 July, 2014, 02:44:34 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Auntie Helen on 09 July, 2014, 02:44:39 pm
It's all happening today!

But really disappointing what's just happened

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 09 July, 2014, 02:46:11 pm
^^^Bloody hell you're quick, it only happened 2 minutes ago.

Cav's on the chopping-board today.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 09 July, 2014, 02:48:02 pm
Absolutely predictable. And in fact I predicted it.

If you've watched the last few stages you'll have seen Contadors entire team at the front, whilst Sky have been all over the place.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Auntie Helen on 09 July, 2014, 02:49:19 pm
I have the TV on whilst I'm working. The last 15 minutes have been all crashes. Kittel's had one as well. I suspect no set of lycra will survive without at least one hole in it by the end of this!
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 09 July, 2014, 02:53:02 pm
It's a shame Thomas will have had to hang around for Froome. He's good at this sort of stuff.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 09 July, 2014, 02:55:09 pm
Well, he doesn't have to hang around any more.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 09 July, 2014, 03:00:00 pm
OUCH

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: mcshroom on 09 July, 2014, 03:10:49 pm
This is ridiculous today. I hope the rest manage to get through unscathed
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 09 July, 2014, 03:14:40 pm
Porte could win the Tour, which is why he's sat on Thomas' wheel.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 09 July, 2014, 03:25:53 pm
Where's Thomas?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: mcshroom on 09 July, 2014, 03:29:23 pm
Didn't like the look of that Lotto rider's cartwheel. Think a spectator copped that one as well
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 09 July, 2014, 03:33:26 pm
 They ought to skip the bloody pavés next year, they're only there for the Roman holiday effect.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: tiermat on 09 July, 2014, 03:35:07 pm
So, prior to the start, the riders are grumbling about the dry stone walls in North Yorks.

Not one came a cropper on them.  the only serious injury was on a clear, smooth, straight piece of road!

Not one of the peleton complained about the fact they were riding 7 of the 28 pavé stages of Paris - Roubaix, yet it is carnage out there!!!

It's madness, madness I tell you.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 09 July, 2014, 03:39:28 pm
Brilliant racing, worth a dozen climbing stages. I've just seen my favourite BMW K75 from L'Equipe.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: mcshroom on 09 July, 2014, 03:41:03 pm
I'm finding it more painful watching than brilliant racing. In these conditions skill and ability become less important and pure luck far more important.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 09 July, 2014, 03:50:32 pm
I'm finding it more painful watching than brilliant racing. In these conditions skill and ability become less important and pure luck far more important.
Well you are bound to have a sympathetic wince or two.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: seraphina on 09 July, 2014, 03:57:57 pm
IIRC a few riders had complained about the cobbles. Admittedly Froome didn't crash on the cobbles but it's a crap stage for a Grand Tour given it has the possibility of taking out so many good riders by sheer bad luck.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 09 July, 2014, 04:04:04 pm
The only positive thing about this is that it makes Yorkshire look like a great place for stage racing.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Riggers on 09 July, 2014, 04:07:11 pm
The slippery cobbles have done for him then!
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Asterix, the former Gaul. on 09 July, 2014, 04:07:47 pm
Shame (on you Sky) there's no Sir Bradley, I reckon he'd have coped..  Sorry for Froome anyway.



Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Asterix, the former Gaul. on 09 July, 2014, 04:10:21 pm
The only positive thing about this is that it makes Yorkshire look like a great place for stage racing.

As indeed it is!
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: andyoxon on 09 July, 2014, 04:14:12 pm
Shame (on you Sky) there's no Sir Bradley, I reckon he'd have coped..  Sorry for Froome anyway.

Do SKY have anyone that can 'step up'?  Sir Brad should have been there.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: tiermat on 09 July, 2014, 04:16:55 pm
Shame (on you Sky) there's no Sir Bradley, I reckon he'd have coped..  Sorry for Froome anyway.

Do SKY have anyone that can 'step up'?  Sir Brad should have been there.

Could be time for either Richie Porte or Geraint to show what they are made of, after all they have nothing to lose and everything to gain, don't they?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: mcshroom on 09 July, 2014, 04:17:45 pm
Looks like Thomas was working for Porte today
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 09 July, 2014, 04:19:43 pm
I'm finding it more painful watching than brilliant racing. In these conditions skill and ability become less important and pure luck far more important.

Nonsense!

There is a reason why Nibali is the big winner today.

Froome crashed on tarmac not cobbles_!!!!
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 09 July, 2014, 04:20:26 pm
Contador 2m38 down on Nibali.  Bye bye Alberto?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: tiermat on 09 July, 2014, 04:21:53 pm
Contador 2m38 down on Nibali.  Bye bye Alberto?

It's still only the 5th stage, he has been further down than that, before now, and come back in the later stages.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 09 July, 2014, 04:22:02 pm
Bangin' ride by Astana today.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 09 July, 2014, 04:23:05 pm
All three jerseys were in the top 10. It was a true test of cycling skill. Too much of modern cycling is like turbo-training with tactics dictated from team cars. This was proper racing.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 09 July, 2014, 04:28:27 pm
Quite. Its the predominant race. It should test how well rounded a rider is.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: mcshroom on 09 July, 2014, 04:30:37 pm
As long as you can avoid the greater than 1:10 chance of hitting the deck during the stage.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 09 July, 2014, 04:35:10 pm
(http://i61.tinypic.com/6xum3b.jpg)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 09 July, 2014, 04:37:03 pm
As long as you can avoid the greater than 1:10 chance of hitting the deck during the stage.

Its not chance that dictates that. Those in the know predicted Nibali to do well.

Froome crashed twice BEFORE the cobbled stage by the way.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: mcshroom on 09 July, 2014, 04:38:47 pm
Who said anything about Froome?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Glover Fan on 09 July, 2014, 04:40:01 pm
Froome was like a giraffe skating on ice before he even got to the cobbles.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: andyoxon on 09 July, 2014, 04:40:11 pm
Yorkshire:

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/7/5/1404573540244/c8bdf02b-4ac9-40c1-bd0f-0d626a4cfe81-460x276.jpeg)

France:

(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/512/media/images/76143000/jpg/_76143508_023085288-1.jpg)

 ;)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 09 July, 2014, 04:46:54 pm
It would have been worth fielding Wiggins if there'd been a prologue rather than that pointless ride down the Mall.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: LEE on 09 July, 2014, 05:19:29 pm
As long as you can avoid the greater than 1:10 chance of hitting the deck during the stage.

Its not chance that dictates that. Those in the know predicted Nibali to do well.

Froome crashed twice BEFORE the cobbled stage by the way.

Last night Geraint Thomas was saying that when they first got to know Froome he was always crashing due to a lack of "bike craft".  They knew he was special when he kept falling off but catching up with the Peloton.  I guess that only works so often.

Fortunately though we have another World Class rider, Bradley Wiggins, in the team who can...what's that?  .....he's not in the team you say?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 09 July, 2014, 05:55:00 pm
Isn't Froome a former mountain biker?  You'd have thought he'd have learned how to stay on the bike in adverse conditions ???

I can talk; I survived the extremely soggy criterium in the HPV Worlds in 2003 only to fall off on the way back to the pits afterwards :(
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: rogerdodge on 09 July, 2014, 06:03:45 pm
Shame (on you Sky) there's no Sir Bradley, I reckon he'd have coped..  Sorry for Froome anyway.
yes, after all wiggo did finish 9th in the Paris Roubaix this year.  I was impressed.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Frank9755 on 09 July, 2014, 06:16:31 pm
Gripping stuff! Ruined my afternoon's work anyway; I couldn't stop watching.  Brilliant racing and Nibali rode like a champion to put himself into a very powerful position. 

Thomas / Porte also did a good job at the end.

Was surprised that Cancellara didn't make a challenge but it might have been that Sagan was marking him too closely.  Was also surprised that Contador lost so much time as, although it was cold, wet and slippery, he is no fool at handling a bike. 

(Along with many others) I suspected Froome wouldn't get through today after his spill yesterday.  On the way in to work I was considering putting a good sized bet on Contador.  Luckily I had forgotten by the time I got to the office!  Hope Froome hasn't done himself any lasting damage. 

I don't think Wiggins would have liked it on the wet, slippery roads.  The rest of the tour is still too hilly for him.  If Brailsford's call to leave him out was right at the start, it still is, despite losing Froome.  Porte is now third favourite with the bookies. 
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 09 July, 2014, 06:23:34 pm
Wiggins' performance in 2010 seems to have been forgotten. http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2010/jul/18/tour-de-france-2010-bradley-wiggins
Likewise his crash out in 2011. 2012 was designed for him.
I still think Brailsford made the right call. I also think Brad would have failed to toe the party line on Armstrong at some point.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 09 July, 2014, 06:29:28 pm
TdF winners should be complete riders, not just 1-trick ponies. It is only those not skilled and canny enough to stay out of trouble that complain about technical courses.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 09 July, 2014, 06:48:01 pm
They also got to look Hinault and Merckx in the eye at the end of the day, pictures of which Nibali and Sagan will be sticking into their scrapbooks.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: bikenrrd on 09 July, 2014, 06:49:37 pm
TdF winners should be complete riders, not just 1-trick ponies. It is only those not skilled and canny enough to stay out of trouble that complain about technical courses.

I completely agree with this.  Racing shouldn't just be about sustained watts (that leads to the Armstrong era) but tactics and skill on the bike.  No surprise that a 'cross racer won the stage today.  Nibali was a surprise but is an excellent racer - this is the 2nd stage he's put in a great ride so far this year.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Tewdric on 09 July, 2014, 06:51:38 pm
Oh great.  So a confirmed drug cheat is going to win the TdF, probably.  It's like bloody Groundhog Day. 
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 09 July, 2014, 06:52:50 pm
If I was on the TV team I'd be editing images to this tune, finishing with a shot of Lars on the podium with his daughter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgE6g1UIwro
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: andyoxon on 09 July, 2014, 07:15:05 pm
TdF winners should be complete riders, not just 1-trick ponies. It is only those not skilled and canny enough to stay out of trouble that complain about technical courses.

I completely agree with this.  Racing shouldn't just be about sustained watts (that leads to the Armstrong era) but tactics and skill on the bike.  No surprise that a 'cross racer won the stage today.  Nibali was a surprise but is an excellent racer - this is the 2nd stage he's put in a great ride so far this year.

Though apart from staying upright, there's no real evidence Nibali wan't just lucky... or that Froome wasn't unlucky.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: mcshroom on 09 July, 2014, 07:17:12 pm
and I await the grass track, CX and MTB stages. I mean, we wan't the best all-rounder right ;)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Glover Fan on 09 July, 2014, 07:18:22 pm
But Nibali is a great bike handler. He descends like a god.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 09 July, 2014, 07:22:44 pm
But Nibali is a great bike handler. He descends like a god.

You know that, and I know that, but people who don't know their arse from their elbow when it comes to bike racing don't.

Now Contador will have to really fight Nibbles. This is the real cycling World Championship after all.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 09 July, 2014, 07:33:46 pm
Detractors of today's stage also have no sense of history. It started in Ypres and traversed Flanders, giving us images of mud-spattered heroes of a 'Hell of the North', in the centenary year of WW1. 'Pack up your Troubles in Your Old Kit Bag' would work well.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: bikenrrd on 09 July, 2014, 08:04:16 pm
TdF winners should be complete riders, not just 1-trick ponies. It is only those not skilled and canny enough to stay out of trouble that complain about technical courses.

I completely agree with this.  Racing shouldn't just be about sustained watts (that leads to the Armstrong era) but tactics and skill on the bike.  No surprise that a 'cross racer won the stage today.  Nibali was a surprise but is an excellent racer - this is the 2nd stage he's put in a great ride so far this year.

Though apart from staying upright, there's no real evidence Nibali wan't just lucky... or that Froome wasn't unlucky.

You make your own luck in a bike race.  Or you could just have them on turbo trainers for three weeks.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 09 July, 2014, 08:12:02 pm
What you've got to remember is that today was the best day of racing for ages
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Aidan on 09 July, 2014, 08:28:21 pm
Just watched the highlights, what a  fantastic stage!
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Karla on 09 July, 2014, 08:42:57 pm
I wish I'd been in the Wiggins living room today.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Glover Fan on 09 July, 2014, 08:56:15 pm
Certainly the best Tour I've watched for a long time so far. Stage 2 had GC contenders battling on the last climb. Stage 5 was a battle of attrition and as someone pointed out, 100 years since the start of terrible war where some of the worst battle scenes were fought in the fields nearby.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 09 July, 2014, 09:11:20 pm

I don't think Wiggins would have liked it on the wet, slippery roads.  The rest of the tour is still too hilly for him.  If Brailsford's call to leave him out was right at the start, it still is, despite losing Froome. 

I agree.  Remember Wiggins riding 'like a girl' in the rain? His impressive Paris Roubaix ride would have counted for nothing in today's conditions.  And the route is far more mountainous and with a lot fewer TTing kms than in 2012.

I wasn't convinced that Froome would have been on top of his game anyway - though, of course, we'll never know.  His build up had not been ideal, with the chest infection, race withdrawals, a bad crash and the TUE.  Shame we won't see him in the mountain battles to come though.

It's good for Richie Porte to get the protected role he has now (I assume that will happen rather than the targeting of stage wins - at least for a while) since he missed out at the Giro. He's spent long enough on lieutenant and domestique durties for Wiggins and Froome.  Perhaps he's riding himself into form.

Detractors of today's stage also have no sense of history. It started in Ypres

That's a salient point.

Ondyoxon photo juxtaposition:  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 09 July, 2014, 09:31:44 pm
That was an amazing stage. TdF isn't just about gaining time in the hills or a TT. Windy stages play a part (remember stage 13 last year?). Why not pave too? I'm all for those sort of stages in a Grand Tour. And remember, Giro has used strade bianche.

Astana have been very present at the front of the peleton since Saturday and the team rode fantastically well today to allow Nibbles & Jakob Fuglsang to gain loads of time on GC. Nibbles isn't know for riding the Classics, yet beat Cancellera & Sagan - wow :thumbsup:. This also makes the rest of the race very interesting because Berto now has to attack to gain time on Nibbles.

Sky were, unsurprisingly, a mess. The team have been conspicuous by their absence, which Flatus & I have both noticed:

If you've watched the last few stages you'll have seen Contadors entire team at the front, whilst Sky have been all over the place.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 09 July, 2014, 09:57:01 pm

Sky were, unsurprisingly, a mess. The team have been conspicuous by their absence, which Flatus & I have both noticed:

If you've watched the last few stages you'll have seen Contadors entire team at the front, whilst Sky have been all over the place.

As was the case in the first week in 2012 and 2013...  It's not cost-free to ride at the front.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: alexb on 10 July, 2014, 07:29:34 am
95 miles in pissing rain over 7 sections of cobbles and still somehow faster than the UK time trial record over a similar distance?
I just don't believe that's a clean performance.
How the fuck is Vino a team principle?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 10 July, 2014, 07:43:25 am
Not a time-trial - what % of the time was Boom's nose 'in the wind' compared to the 100% of the UK TTer?
Best riders in the world?
Tailwind?
Drugs?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: LEE on 10 July, 2014, 08:45:52 am
95 miles in pissing rain over 7 sections of cobbles and still somehow faster than the UK time trial record over a similar distance?
I just don't believe that's a clean performance.
How the fuck is Vino a team principle?

There were only 15km of Pave in 155km and the route was pan-flat.

I don't think 45km/hr is unusual for a peloton over flat ground.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Frank9755 on 10 July, 2014, 08:48:43 am
I wondered about that at the finish too, but Boom was slightly slower than the UK 100 mile TT record.
Three reasons why they should be (much) faster:
Professional riders
Drafting and pacing allowed
One-way course with a tailwind

Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 10 July, 2014, 08:56:07 am
Also cool conditions, both Astana riders dispensed with arm warmers, Nibala later than his team-mate.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Frank9755 on 10 July, 2014, 08:57:24 am
Froome was like a giraffe skating on ice before he even got to the cobbles.

The story seems to be that Froome's wrist was broken in his fall on Tuesday so he was struggling to control the bike on a slippery road with one hand.   

His Tuesday crash was unlucky, but I feel the team exposed him to bad luck:
If you've watched the last few stages you'll have seen Contadors entire team at the front, whilst Sky have been all over the place.

Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: David Martin on 10 July, 2014, 09:07:32 am
Froome was near the front of the peloton when he crashed on Tuesday, pretty much alongside Nibali.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 10 July, 2014, 09:09:13 am
Recently recruited fans have a cascade of interests which derive from their conversations with those who know even less than they do. It goes from personalities, to numbers to drugs.
So firstly it's about Wiggins, then Froome, and the amazing figures that compare with their own efforts. With people they know out of the equation, it's about drugs.
Anything which touches on skills that can't be reduced to statistics, celebrity or medication is too confusing.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Ivo on 10 July, 2014, 09:18:08 am
95 miles in pissing rain over 7 sections of cobbles and still somehow faster than the UK time trial record over a similar distance?
I just don't believe that's a clean performance.
How the fuck is Vino a team principle?

There were only 15km of Pave in 155km and the route was pan-flat.

I don't think 45km/hr is unusual for a peloton over flat ground.

Two sections of cobbles were deleted. I watched it on section 4. As usual I first rode the section myself. To me it felt like luxury cobbles, very neatly laid, no gaps, hardly any water, no mud. It just felt as your ordinary bad road surface, not like a real cobbles stretch. Can't comment on the other sections, I'm not fast enough to do all of them on one day including the train ride from home. ;)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 10 July, 2014, 09:30:15 am
Anything which touches on skills that can't be reduced to statistics, celebrity or medication is too confusing.
Aye. Right now the radio pundits are trying to assess Argentine's chances against Germany by looking at results from ten years ago.

Even though the significant crashes yesterday - at least the ones I know of - weren't on cobbles, for those who don't ride on the damned things that much the anticipation of them is unsettling, which in itself can cause upsets.  Even when you are used to them - and lots of touristy villages around here have kept them - riding over them wet is bloody 'orrible murderous.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: LEE on 10 July, 2014, 09:48:35 am
It just looked like Stockport on a typical summer day to me.

Reminiscent of my paper-round.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 10 July, 2014, 09:50:11 am
Yes well, it only reached 13°C here yesterday.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: LEE on 10 July, 2014, 10:00:32 am
Good video of 23mm and 25mm tyres going over Pave in Slo-Mo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GET2h0j0loA
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GET2h0j0loA)

I bought a Trek Domane at the weekend, not for Pave, just for typical British country lanes.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 10 July, 2014, 10:16:07 am
Leaving drugs out of the equation, one of the notable things about Armstrong 99-05 was how he almost never had 'bad luck'. Of course, the primary reason for that had nothing to do with luck.

Froome was an abysmal bike handler. He's better now, but still not great. Tactical nous is also a little lacking. These two things are a significant element of racing. It isn't just strength and fitness that matters.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 10 July, 2014, 10:18:48 am
On the cobbles they ride long-wheelbase bikes with frames with a bit of give, old-fashioned wheels and 27mm tyres at lower pressures. Sounds familiar.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: LEE on 10 July, 2014, 11:43:54 am
Leaving drugs out of the equation, one of the notable things about Armstrong 99-05 was how he almost never had 'bad luck'. Of course, the primary reason for that had nothing to do with luck.

Armstrong certainly got lucky a few times in 03 when a spectators bag-strap took him down then he was forced to go cross-country.  Both incidents could have ended badly for him.
He went down like a ton of bricks in the first incident and showed fantastic bike handling skills in the second. Drugs or not, he made his own luck when he crossed that field.

I wonder whether his comparatively muscular build helped in the crash and helps in the peloton. 

Froome is a skeleton and looks rather "breakable".  He'd definitely struggle to shove Spartacus out of his way if he needed some room on the road.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Glover Fan on 10 July, 2014, 11:48:04 am
On the cobbles they ride long-wheelbase bikes with frames with a bit of give, old-fashioned wheels and 27mm tyres at lower pressures. Sounds familiar.
Only Astana appear to have used old fashioned wheels according to the video above.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Riggers on 10 July, 2014, 12:08:17 pm
The slippery cobbles have done for him then!

Yes, my mistake. It wasn't even the cobbles wot dun for 'im. The previous evening, on the cycling programme directly after the Tour highlights, the presenter asked one of Froome's contemporary professional cycling chums (see how I can't remember his name there!) how he think he'd fair on the cobbles. He replied that Froomey was always coming off his bike, so was worried about the next stage.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 10 July, 2014, 12:29:23 pm
On the cobbles they ride long-wheelbase bikes with frames with a bit of give, old-fashioned wheels and 27mm tyres at lower pressures. Sounds familiar.
Only Astana appear to have used old fashioned wheels according to the video above.

It varies within teams. Here's a picture of Astana on a recce, both deep section and old-fashioned wheels are on display. I'm only interested in what the big domestiques are riding. A long wheelbase bike is less choppy.

http://cdn.velonews.competitor.com/files/2014/06/5_20140417_%C2%A9BrakeThrough-Media_3S3A7806.jpg
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Byronius Maximus on 10 July, 2014, 01:07:19 pm
I don't think Wiggins would have liked it on the wet, slippery roads.  The rest of the tour is still too hilly for him.  If Brailsford's call to leave him out was right at the start, it still is, despite losing Froome. 

Spot on.

Wiggins has proven himself on cobbles, yes, but he is notoriously slow and cautious in the wet which would not have helped yesterday. Even if he had been able to do something yesterday, does anyone really believe that he is a GC contender this year? The "I told you so" brigade only seem to be basing their case on the fact that he won in 2012 (a lot happens in 2 years!) and that he won the ToC months ago, but at the same time forgetting that he didn't finish the Tour de Suisse just a few weeks ago. Coupled with the well known friction between him and Froome, I don't think Brailsford will be losing any sleep over his decision to leave Wiggo out of the team.

Brailsford went with a plan A, rather than compromising it so that he had a poor plan B. As he said after the 2012 Olympic road race, "if you want to win big, you have to be prepared to lose big." Everyone is happy with the "win big" part, but many aren't willing to accept that "losing big" is the other side of the same coin.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: andyoxon on 10 July, 2014, 01:08:37 pm
Good video of 23mm and 25mm tyres going over Pave in Slo-Mo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GET2h0j0loA
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GET2h0j0loA)

I bought a Trek Domane at the weekend, not for Pave, just for typical British country lanes.

Interesting clip - with 27mm tub use etc.  Mentioned the danger of roads preceding the cobbled sections, as riders try beat others to the pave.  Impressive to see how quick they were doing the cobbled sections in the wet, on yesterday's highlights.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Rainmaker on 10 July, 2014, 01:37:55 pm
Posted by: Byronius Maximus: Today at 01:07:19 PM.

Wiggins has proven himself on cobbles, yes, but he is notoriously slow and cautious in the wet which would not have helped yesterday.
..... and that he won the ToC months ago, but at the same time forgetting that he didn't finish the Tour de Suisse just a few weeks ago.

There is(as far as I am aware) only one instance where he was "notoriously slow and cautious in the wet" i.e. the Giro 2013.   He had fallen, who knows what damage he suffered.   I think that at the Tour de Suisse he was already aware that he wouldn't be riding le tour.

Time will tell whether it was a good decision, we'll have to wait and see what happens in the remainder of the tour.   
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 10 July, 2014, 01:39:16 pm
Just heard that Nibali was in the Nord in April to recce all the pavé sections with a specialist, hence his relative ease yesterday.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 10 July, 2014, 01:51:13 pm
Just heard that Nibali was in the Nord in April to recce all the pavé sections with a specialist, hence his relative ease yesterday.
That's when the picture I linked to was taken. Astana were also spotted by Heather's sister Hilary, in Muker, Swaledale.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 10 July, 2014, 02:44:02 pm
Stopped in front of a chip-shop.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: bikenrrd on 10 July, 2014, 03:24:42 pm

Wiggins has proven himself on cobbles, yes, but he is notoriously slow and cautious in the wet which would not have helped yesterday.


Wiggins won the British Time Trial Championship in the wet 2 weeks ago.  Beat Alex Dowsett (another pro who specialises in TT) by a minute and twenty seconds.
It was wet descending which unstitched him in the Giro in 2013 and there were no hills yesterday!
Anyway, it's all academic and a pointless argument.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 10 July, 2014, 03:33:04 pm
Stopped in front of a chip-shop.

No chippy in Muker, the choice is between the tea shop and the Farmers Arms. Normally this would count as a diversion, but it's one place we considered watching the Tour from.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.376222,-2.140919,3a,75y,357.58h,91.33t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sLqKuE4g2msT-CmGhjhJQsA!2e0?hl=en

Just about the furthest North the Tour has ever been, with much in common with the Alps and Pyrenees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiXINuf5nbI
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 10 July, 2014, 04:10:17 pm
In the Nibali picture you posted, across the road: Frites.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 10 July, 2014, 04:21:20 pm
I was imagining the Astana team taking a gastronomic and cultural Tour of Yorkshire, popping in for some beans on toast in Reeth, or a pint or two in the Market Square in Masham. 'We don't get many Kazahks in here'. 'Do you know that there Borat?' Before picking up some farmhouse Wensleydale in Booths in Ripon.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Aidan on 10 July, 2014, 08:12:00 pm
Sagan had his lowest stage finish of the race so far today. 5th!!!!!!!!   That's going some !
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Rainmaker on 11 July, 2014, 08:26:36 am

Exit Stage Left on July 09, 2014, 07:33:46 PM 

Detractors of today's stage also have no sense of history. It started in Ypres and traversed Flanders, giving us images of mud-spattered heroes of a 'Hell of the North', in the centenary year of WW1. 'Pack up your Troubles in Your Old Kit Bag' would work well.

Until yesterday's stage 6 I hadn't realised the significance of the route.    Stage 6 went along the "Chemin des Dames" the scene of a huge French offensive in 1916 which was supposed to relieve the pressure on the British Sector.
Today's route is obviously to commemorate the battle of Verdun in 1916 and goes very close to the Douaumont Ossuary which is a French National Cemetery.   The battle of Verdun resulted in more than 700,000 casualties including 230,000  killed.   I'm not sure whether the route will include the "Voie Sacre" which was the lifeline for Verdun during the battle.

Anyone who attended the Semaine Federal in Verdun will remember the area.
 

Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 11 July, 2014, 08:56:51 am
I did the 2009 St Omer Sem Fed as well, so I can tick all the WW1 boxes from Ypres to the Argonne, via the 75mm 1897 model cannon. The history of the 'Soixante Quinze' makes a good introduction to the true nature of WW1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_75_mod%C3%A8le_1897
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 11 July, 2014, 09:17:05 am
Until yesterday's stage 6 I hadn't realised the significance of the route.    Stage 6 went along the "Chemin des Dames" the scene of a huge French offensive in 1916 which was supposed to relieve the pressure on the British Sector.

More significantly, the French troops got so sick of being thoughtlessly fed to the German machine-guns that many went on strike.

Interesting coincidences dept: the French general responsible for the losses was called Nivelle.  During the World Cup that was held in France in 1998, German thugs beat up a French gendarme in Metz and left him disabled for life. His name was Denis Nivelle.  It's not a very common name.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: De Sisti on 11 July, 2014, 10:49:42 pm

Exit Stage Left on July 09, 2014, 07:33:46 PM 

Detractors of today's stage also have no sense of history. It started in Ypres and traversed Flanders, giving us images of mud-spattered heroes of a 'Hell of the North', in the centenary year of WW1. 'Pack up your Troubles in Your Old Kit Bag' would work well.

Until yesterday's stage 6 I hadn't realised the significance of the route.    Stage 6 went along the "Chemin des Dames" the scene of a huge French offensive in 1916 which was supposed to relieve the pressure on the British Sector.
Today's route is obviously to commemorate the battle of Verdun in 1916 and goes very close to the Douaumont Ossuary which is a French National Cemetery.   The battle of Verdun resulted in more than 700,000 casualties including 230,000  killed.   I'm not sure whether the route will include the "Voie Sacre" which was the lifeline for Verdun during the battle.

Anyone who attended the Semaine Federal in Verdun will remember the area.


I was there :thumbsup:
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Dibdib on 12 July, 2014, 04:58:07 pm
Talansky apparently "demanding a personal apology" from God for the rain at the end of today's stage.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 12 July, 2014, 05:58:53 pm
Missed it. Did he fall off again?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Dibdib on 12 July, 2014, 06:40:18 pm
It was a joke... and no, I think he just got dropped.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Gus on 12 July, 2014, 06:48:33 pm
It was a joke... and no, I think he just got dropped.

No , he fell again  :facepalm: sliding around in the rain...
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Ivo on 12 July, 2014, 07:36:24 pm
It was a joke... and no, I think he just got dropped.

No , he fell again  :facepalm: sliding around in the rain...


Missing a corner. A nd sliding into a chair. Not looking good for him, two crashes in two days.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Canardly on 12 July, 2014, 07:59:04 pm
He had a damaged wrist and found controlling the bike difficult according to our resident correspondents.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 12 July, 2014, 08:04:59 pm
Amazing how much time Simon Yates lost after being caught on the final slope  :o

Anyways, Bertie is back on the dope, and he will likely win.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: guidon on 12 July, 2014, 09:21:06 pm
Much as it pains me James you are defo correct ;)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 12 July, 2014, 09:56:44 pm
Tomorrow looks like being fun, I've been over a lot of the cols down there.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Andrew Br on 13 July, 2014, 12:10:54 am
Amazing how much time Simon Yates lost after being caught on the final slope  :o



Yes.

Anyways, Bertie is back on the dope, and he will likely win.

I hope you're wrong.
I suspect you're not.

Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: guidon on 13 July, 2014, 04:50:47 pm
Panzervagen!
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 13 July, 2014, 04:59:10 pm
Bloody hell. They don't cheer like that when I ride into Mulhouse.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Dibdib on 13 July, 2014, 05:10:20 pm
Chapeau to der Panzerwagen though*, that was an amazing attack. I can't think of many other guys in the peloton who could go alone from that far out, like that - especially not from such a small breakaway. And double especially not with the memory of that Vuelta stage last year.


*I am SO tempted to buy a Panzerwagen cap. OPQS sell them on their website and I may have to break my "no trade team kit" rule for one...
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Ivo on 13 July, 2014, 06:02:01 pm
Today's rumour, Boom is about to sign for Sky
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 13 July, 2014, 07:41:50 pm
Anyways, Bertie is back on the dope, and he will likely win.

A Tinkfoff Saxo trainer provides one explanation for Contador's improvement in form this year compared to 2013: http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/07/de-jongh-explains-factors-in-contadors-improvement-riis-insists-rider-can-win-tour/ Who really knows if this, or special steaks, are the reason for this improvements?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 13 July, 2014, 08:26:35 pm
Would that be the De Jongh who left Sky after admitting doping, along with Michael Rogers who jumped before he was pushed.

Both joined up to work for Mr 60% on behalf of Bertie the Unrepentant Doper.

Its back on. Full gas. The only weird thing is how Sky look like a different team this year.

Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 13 July, 2014, 09:02:07 pm
Would that be the De Jongh who left Sky after admitting doping, along with Michael Rogers who jumped before he was pushed.

The same de Jongh.

And is that the same Mike Rogers as the one who successfully used the "I ate contaminated cow" defence at the end of last year to avoid a ban? And team mate to Roman Kreuziger who isn't allowed to ride this TdF after blood abnormalities were detected from 2011 and 2012?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 13 July, 2014, 09:04:36 pm
Indeed it is. I'm not sure I can suspend my disbelief
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Pippa on 13 July, 2014, 09:45:26 pm
Question from a cycle racing n00b: what make you think Contador is doping this year? Genuine question, not a "I'm questioning your judgement question", I just don't have the experience to spot these things (when it isn't the more obvious performances we've been treated to in years gone by....). I don't want to get doped duped into believing in someone when I shouldn't.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 13 July, 2014, 09:55:43 pm
People think he's doping because he was once penalized for suspected doping.  The Court of Arbitration for Sport later opined that he very probably did not take the substance involved deliberately, but once a dog has a bad name he's guilty for ever.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Karla on 13 July, 2014, 09:58:28 pm
He used to always look just a bit too lean, then he was discovered to be doping using a drug that is (illegally) used to make cows lean (plus whatever else he was taking: the tests suggested that he'd also been transfusion doping.)  When he came back from his ban, presumably being very cautious wrt chemical assistance, he didn't ride so well.  Now he looks like the old Contador (i.e. the doper) and is riding like the old Contador, i.e. the doper.  He's also surrounded himself with a number of people who have very chequered histories in that department.  Now none of this is conclusive, and there are enough ex-dopers in cycling to make it nigh-on impossible to form a team with no dodgy history whatsoever, but all the arrows point in the same direction: Bertie's back on the bongo.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 13 July, 2014, 10:10:28 pm
He has always ridden for dodgy teams surrounded by controversy.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: spesh on 13 July, 2014, 11:33:02 pm
I'm inclined to think it's a little too early to say, but let's see what happens tomorrow. Failing that, the Alps should give us an idea of how spicy the chimmichurri sauce on his rest day steak was.  ;)

And while we are on the subject of dodgy riders, Denis Menchov's been handed a ban and had results stripped, although in a departure from policy under previous regimes, the UCI did so without any fanfare. Kind of appropriate for the man nick-named the "Silent Assassin".  :demon:

http://inrng.com/2014/07/denis-menchovs-silent-prosecution/
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 14 July, 2014, 06:56:57 am
From the inrng article on Menchov:

(https://38.media.tumblr.com/7988bc48f0ff6de99447e2e2a0573e5c/tumblr_n8m59qUr3G1ropreyo1_1280.jpg)
Raise your hand if you’ve been stripped of your results from the 2010 Tour

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 14 July, 2014, 07:09:28 am
Onboard footage from Stage 3 Cambridge to London: http://goo.gl/h7L3m9

And from a wet Stage 8 to Gerardmer La Mauselaine: http://goo.gl/ZD669n

More here: http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/user/tourdefrance/search/board/1
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: delthebike on 14 July, 2014, 07:13:49 am
Better than the average commute footage!
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 14 July, 2014, 08:05:41 am
Contador was also closely linked with the Operation Puerto/Dr Fuentes blood doping investigation, along with a few members of Astana - enough that he was not permitted to ride the 2006 tour. The evidence was circumstantial enough that he was exonerated by the Spanish authorities.  Later he apparently said "I was in the wrong team at the wrong time and somehow my name got among the documents." So there we are.

I do like his style on climbs.  At the bottom of a final climb he could almost throw away his saddle/seatpost to save weight - he hardly seems to use them.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Pippa on 14 July, 2014, 09:16:57 am
OK (sorry for more questions) - lots of useful stuff there. What about Nibali? Dodgy team, but not a dodgy rider?

On a totally separate note, for some reason I can't tell my Chavanels from my Cancelleras (don't ask me why, I just get the two of them confused) so I did an image search just to try and get it straight in my head who was who, and I came across this..... (in spoiler tags because what has been seen cannot be unseen): Chavanel recreates the athena man with baby......why? why would you do that Sylvain?

(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 14 July, 2014, 10:00:10 am
As far as I'm concerned they're all innocent until proven guilty, and once they've served their suspensions they're back on the same footing as everyone else.  In cycling the slightest chemical suggestion of illegal substances is sufficient to divest a rider of his results and tar him with the same brush as proven cheats. The presence of the chemical used to keep blood bags flexible is enough, so too bad if it's used in anything else and you pick it up, you're a crook.

The list of forbidden substances varies, too. Not so many years ago you could be done for excess caffeine, now it's legal.  And from what I've read recently, even testosterone isn't all it's cracked up to be.  It'd be a real laugh if it were to be legalized in the future. Not that I really think it will be, for other reasons than sporting.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 14 July, 2014, 10:02:09 am
BTW, apart from a couple of faces - Contador, Voekler, Andy Schleck - I can only tell them apart by their numbers.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 July, 2014, 10:54:30 am
Out of the saddle attacks on the steep bits. Hmmm.

At least Sky make an attempt to look like their efforts are measured,slowly grinding themselves back up.

Talking of Sky, they are in pieces, scattered in the peloton and in sharp contrast to Saxo and Astana who are always at full strength right at the front.

Something is going on at Sky and its not quite in focus yet. Not only have other teams caught up (former key Sky players now in Saxo) but all is not well in the Sky camp. Did you notice how nonchalent Geraint was about Froomes departure?

Got a feeling the Sky roster might look very different next year.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Dibdib on 14 July, 2014, 11:08:49 am
Talking of Sky, they are in pieces, scattered in the peloton and in sharp contrast to Saxo and Astana who are always at full strength right at the front.

Maybe, but why should Sky drive the pace along at the front? There's no expectation on Porte's shoulders like there has been on Nibali or Contador. I think that if Porte can ride on their coattails for the first few days in the mountains while the Sky domestiques keep their powder dry, it might leave a little something in the tank for an attack later on.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: madcow on 14 July, 2014, 11:09:56 am
Out of the saddle attacks on the steep bits. Hmmm.

At least Sky make an attempt to look like their efforts are measured,slowly grinding themselves back up.

Talking of Sky, they are in pieces, scattered in the peloton and in sharp contrast to Saxo and Astana who are always at full strength right at the front.

Something is going on at Sky and its not quite in focus yet. Not only have other teams caught up (former key Sky players now in Saxo) but all is not well in the Sky camp. Did you notice how nonchalent Geraint was about Froomes departure?

Got a feeling the Sky roster might look very different next year.

Richie Porte should have a free rein now and it looks like GT isn't at his best for whatever reason. He's riding well but not at his peak IMO.
Maybe he was only going to be a super domestique, but thinks he could do better elsewhere.
There has been a lot of attention aimed at Froome, particularly during the Grand Depart period.
 I wonder if  the management didn't have a Plan B  that would kick in the event of Froome pulling out .
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 July, 2014, 11:18:15 am
Its not that I'd expect Sky to be pulling, but Porte is likely to have a chance of podium and therefore deserves support.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 14 July, 2014, 11:50:31 am
It's the main Sky mountain support - Nieve and Cataldo - that has been generally at the back. Sort of makes sense. I suspect that won't be the case today, though Cataldo is recovering from crashes earlier in the race (who isn't?), so we'll see.

I wonder if the decision not to include Kennaugh after his Tour of Austria GC win - it included some tough climbing apparently - is being regretted.

Pippa - As far as I know Nibali has not been implicated in any doping scandals but the team/DS certainly have.  This is what his father is reported to have said when he left home at 16 to become a pro:
"Enzo, I’m happy that you’re going to be a cyclist because it was your dream. You might win or lose, but the only thing you must never do is cheat. Because, if you do, you can forget about ever coming back to Sicily".

I'm a sucker for that kind of thing.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 July, 2014, 12:02:34 pm
......and Armstrong said he'd lose the faith of cancer sufferers if he cheated.

I think it goes without saying that where the pro-cycling circus is concerned nothing can be taken at face value. Nibali was reported to be working with Ferrari in 09.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 14 July, 2014, 12:42:14 pm
I've got time in lieu so am sat on the sofa watching the stage up to La Planche des Belles Filles.

At the moment Sagan is trying to get into the break. I guess he needs the sprint points on offer after the first col to consolidate the Green jersey ;).

Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 July, 2014, 01:00:20 pm
As far as I'm concerned they're all innocent until proven guilty, and once they've served their suspensions they're back on the same footing as everyone else.  In cycling the slightest chemical suggestion of illegal substances is sufficient to divest a rider of his results and tar him with the same brush as proven cheats. The presence of the chemical used to keep blood bags flexible is enough, so too bad if it's used in anything else and you pick it up, you're a crook.

Without wishing to sound rude, I think you've not been watching the last decade or so carefully enough.

It is very clear that pre-Cookson's tenure as UCI head, that anti-doping was a farce. Favoured riders were tipped off, or had their positives hidden (see Armstrong and Contador), and it is highly likely that riders out of favour were busted deliberately (see anybody that left USPS/Discovery for another team and tried to challenge Armstrong). Landis admits doping but vehemently denies having used testosterone during the 06 TdF.

Since McQuaids ousting and Armstrong's fall we are in limbo, waiting to see if Cookson has any intention of addressing the issues.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 14 July, 2014, 01:19:36 pm
......and Armstrong said he'd lose the faith of cancer sufferers if he cheated.

I was a sucker for all that as well, for a while.

Are they showing it from the off? If so, I'm glad I've recorded the whole thing and will watch tonight, with judicious fast forward use. It was a shame that nothing was shown of yesterday's fights for the break(s) to form (which apparently took over an hour at not far short of 50kph despite the terrain) whereas the English stages were shown in full but were quite tame at the start.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 July, 2014, 01:25:02 pm
Think its 2pm onwards on itv4, but you might find an active link on cyclingfans
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 14 July, 2014, 01:35:02 pm
Yip, ITV4 are showing the stage from the off today. Coverage started at 12h30.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 14 July, 2014, 02:24:38 pm
Doping clearly doesn't help Bertie's balance..... Hopefully he isn't too badly hurt and will be moving again.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 July, 2014, 02:43:30 pm
3 mins behind Nibali on the road.

Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 14 July, 2014, 02:54:31 pm
As far as I'm concerned they're all innocent until proven guilty, and once they've served their suspensions they're back on the same footing as everyone else.  In cycling the slightest chemical suggestion of illegal substances is sufficient to divest a rider of his results and tar him with the same brush as proven cheats. The presence of the chemical used to keep blood bags flexible is enough, so too bad if it's used in anything else and you pick it up, you're a crook.

Without wishing to sound rude, I think you've not been watching the last decade or so carefully enough.

It is very clear that pre-Cookson's tenure as UCI head, that anti-doping was a farce. Favoured riders were tipped off, or had their positives hidden (see Armstrong and Contador), and it is highly likely that riders out of favour were busted deliberately (see anybody that left USPS/Discovery for another team and tried to challenge Armstrong). Landis admits doping but vehemently denies having used testosterone during the 06 TdF.

Since McQuaids ousting and Armstrong's fall we are in limbo, waiting to see if Cookson has any intention of addressing the issues.

I don't wallow in racing: it's a totally different world from mine.  I enjoy the odd stage of the tour and I like to watch the progress of a couple of riders and see the odd new one emerging, but that's about it. The drug squabble is boring.  Listening to - or rather hearing - my friends who do follow it, though, it seems that a major part of the sport is calumny.  If it weren't for the fact that youngsters even in amateur teams can get pushed onto the chemical roller-coaster, I'd say let them get on with it any way they like.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 14 July, 2014, 02:58:22 pm
Funny, innit: the last time I was up the Petit Ballon it looked like this:
(http://www.pbase.com/johnewing/image/61516716.jpg)

I reckon it hasn't changed in the meantime.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 July, 2014, 02:58:54 pm
Contador out
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 14 July, 2014, 02:59:20 pm
Bertie stops again & gets into the team car. The bike is put onto the roof of the car :o :o
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: marcusjb on 14 July, 2014, 03:00:28 pm
Wow.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: peliroja on 14 July, 2014, 03:01:14 pm
Crikey.

They should have stayed in Yorkshire.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 July, 2014, 03:01:44 pm
Now Sky will really have to get their shit together. Porte/Nibbles/Kwiatowski battle
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 14 July, 2014, 03:05:34 pm
It's time for Astana to catch that breakaway containing Kwiatkowski.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Dibdib on 14 July, 2014, 03:07:18 pm
Vuelta'll be good this year then ;)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 14 July, 2014, 03:16:46 pm
That penultimate climb really is narrow! (http://goo.gl/maps/prNXd)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: peliroja on 14 July, 2014, 03:30:14 pm
Reminds me of the Col de Spandelles (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.010482,-0.217247,3a,75y,327.66h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sZXsdpmOCpdBuPXq0io-keg!2e0) which featured in the 2012 Route du Sud.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 July, 2014, 03:48:58 pm
I'm about three-quarters of an hour behind the live coverage, hence have only just heard that They've claimed that Clentador's frame b0rked :o

I always said that no good would come of this new-fangled soot technology.  Steel is real...
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 14 July, 2014, 03:59:07 pm
Peloton accelerating.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 14 July, 2014, 04:17:05 pm
Martin's knocked off for the day.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Domestique on 14 July, 2014, 05:29:00 pm
Hit a pot hole according to EuroSport  :hand:
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 July, 2014, 05:44:21 pm
Hit a pot hole according to EuroSport  :hand:

Welcome to RL, Señor...
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 July, 2014, 06:12:47 pm
Recording now behaving itself ??? Chapeau to Nibbles :thumbsup:
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Dibdib on 14 July, 2014, 06:21:54 pm
Fractured tibia for Contador.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 July, 2014, 06:34:34 pm
Fractured tibia for Contador.

And he got back on the bike ??? Rispek!
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Domestique on 14 July, 2014, 06:43:21 pm
Hit a pot hole according to EuroSport  :hand:

Welcome to RL, Señor...

 ;D
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Karla on 14 July, 2014, 07:26:19 pm
Cav, Chris and Contador; I think this is a bad tour to be in if your name begins with a C.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Séamas M. on 14 July, 2014, 07:32:54 pm
And he got back on the bike ??? Rispek!

Don't really like El Pistolero but he'll be missed for the rest of this Tour. Great effort today.

However, we're not quite half way yet!  ;D
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Glover Fan on 14 July, 2014, 07:35:42 pm
Funny how Rodriguez has been absolute pish on every stage this tour, but somehow can sprint for most of the KOM categories and then ride hard until he finally floundered when Nibbles overtook him.

Don't trust any rider for Katusha.

Eurosport comms call it "riding into form". OK then.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 14 July, 2014, 08:42:28 pm
I think that's a bit unfair. His performance is not inconsistent with riding into a race which he knew he could not win, losing enough time / riding a bit into form / not taking any risks so that he go for the KoM. So he picked up a few odd points yesterday, and joined the break today - the first day with big mountain points on offer.  A stage win would have been a bonus, and was beyond him given his efforts in fending off Voeckler.  Tony Martin's performance was more remarkable.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 July, 2014, 09:02:22 pm
Yes.....coming the day after a stage win
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Glover Fan on 14 July, 2014, 09:08:47 pm
Maybe I know Jack Shit, but Martins performance for me was believable. He has done crazy rides like this for years.

Maybe I'll be proved wrong.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 14 July, 2014, 09:52:38 pm
Haven't seen any unusual performances so far. Found Rodriguez admirable today, sad he conked on the last km. Martin did a bloody good job. Sorry for Alberto.

Interesting: http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/07/news/timeline-details-alberto-contadors-tour-ending-crash_336328

Hard to believe the local authorities left any potholes unfilled when they knew the Tour was coming.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 14 July, 2014, 10:04:05 pm
The retirements raise the question of which riders are available to support GC contenders. Will we see Rogers giving fellow Aussies a hand? There's a lot of top domestiques looking to lend a hand somewhere. Maybe we'll see a return to the days of the Saeco red train. It should make for some interesting racing if we see some crosswinds.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 14 July, 2014, 10:23:03 pm
At least we won't be seeing the cocked pistol celebration.  Today's thumb-sucking was bad enough.

It's good, I think, that there are 4 young French challengers in the top 10 (and that's excluding Rolland - who doesn't really seem to know what what his target is, falling between stage wins and high GC).  I assume Gallopin will drop quickly, but I wonder if the other 3 willl fade away in the third week while proven 'stayers' like Mollema ,Van den Broek and van Garderen edge up.  Good to see that Thibault Pinot seems to have overcome his descending fears. 

Poor Machado dropped from 3rd to 47th. I wonder what the full story of his crash/abandon/back in the race incident was. 

All 3 previous TdF winners out now. I was expecting it to be only one by this point in the race.

Will we see Rogers giving fellow Aussies a hand?

Shouldn't think so, at least not overtly - Oleg wouldn't be too happy about that.  He's now highest placed Tinkov-Saxo rider at 50th! And to think Sky were criticized for having no Plan B. I expect he'll go for a stage win in the last week, like he did in the Giro.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 July, 2014, 11:04:58 pm
The retirements raise the question of which riders are available to support GC contenders. Will we see Rogers giving fellow Aussies a hand? There's a lot of top domestiques looking to lend a hand somewhere. Maybe we'll see a return to the days of the Saeco red train. It should make for some interesting racing if we see some crosswinds.

Curiously, I'd just reached the bit of "The Armstrong Lie" wherein Armstrong called in a few "favours" from Hincapie...

Also, anyone who messes with Betsy Andreu is clinically insane.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Pingu on 14 July, 2014, 11:52:09 pm
Reminds me of the Col de Spandelles (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.010482,-0.217247,3a,75y,327.66h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sZXsdpmOCpdBuPXq0io-keg!2e0) which featured in the 2012 Route du Sud.

Pingus' Tour de 2009  ;)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3491/3757775549_c9bd34014a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/6J4zKB)
Cold des Spandelles & Col du Soulor (https://flic.kr/p/6J4zKB) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/people//), on Flickr
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: peliroja on 15 July, 2014, 10:07:47 am
 :thumbsup: (One of my very favourite climbs!)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 15 July, 2014, 10:38:29 am
If Nibali crashes out we would have a race
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: MaggieL on 15 July, 2014, 07:00:49 pm
Cav, Chris and Contador; I think this is a bad tour to be in if your name begins with a C.
Cancellara...
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 15 July, 2014, 07:24:14 pm
Nah......his was a preplanned withdrawal à la Cipollini
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 15 July, 2014, 07:36:56 pm
Cav, Chris and Contador; I think this is a bad tour to be in if your name begins with a C.
Cancellara...

I'm now waiting for Chris Horner to receive his comeuppance.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 15 July, 2014, 09:39:17 pm
Poor Machado dropped from 3rd to 47th. I wonder what the full story of his crash/abandon/back in the race incident was. 

I'm glad you wondered that Simon.

Apparently, he was put in the ambulance after the crash, race radio reported he abandoned, he persuaded his way out, got back on his bike, rode most of the remainder on his own, finished out of time, was kicked out, and was reinstated on appeal.  Or something like that. A touch of the Matt Stevens in the Giro all those years ago.

Thanks to  Jens' blog (http://blogs.bicycling.com/blogs/hardlyserious/the-day-i-got-six-yellow-jerseys) for some of the details:

Quote
And then there was Tiago Machado. Yesterday he had just a brilliant ride and moved into the top three overall. But then today he crashed and finished dead last. You know he was actually in the ambulance and then got back out and back on his bike! How courageous is that? That is pure determination for you. That is true grit.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: LEE on 16 July, 2014, 10:07:30 am
I just love Peter Sagan's "Look Mum No Hands" Wheelies across the line.

Next time I expect him to don his Gilet mid-wheelie.

Amazing bike control.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 16 July, 2014, 10:38:56 am
Maybe today we'll get his Wolverine impression/celebration.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Karla on 16 July, 2014, 07:57:47 pm
First Cav, then Froome, now Talansky (tbc in the morning): my fantasy team is getting very thin. 
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Oaky on 16 July, 2014, 08:35:24 pm
First Cav, then Froome, now Talansky (tbc in the morning): my fantasy team is getting very thin.

yup - team "dropping like flies" looks like it will continue to live up to its name.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: andyoxon on 17 July, 2014, 01:51:11 pm
broken bike frame-gate.  http://road.cc/content/news/123757-so-what-really-happened-alberto-contadors-broken-specialized-tarmac-yesterday
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: microphonie on 17 July, 2014, 03:43:43 pm
Top bidon distribution by the Bretagne soigneur just now: four in as many seconds - the last being to a rider that was virtually passed him  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: spesh on 17 July, 2014, 05:23:22 pm
Top bidon distribution by the Bretagne soigneur just now: four in as many seconds - the last being to a rider that was virtually passed him  :thumbsup:

That was quite impressive. On the subject of hydration, one of the Saxo-Tinkoff riders appeared to be wearing some kind of vest over his jersey for carrying bidons - I guess it's easier than trying to stuff several bidons up and down the back of one's jersey.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: marcusjb on 17 July, 2014, 06:10:58 pm
Top bidon distribution by the Bretagne soigneur just now: four in as many seconds - the last being to a rider that was virtually passed him  :thumbsup:

That was quite impressive. On the subject of hydration, one of the Saxo-Tinkoff riders appeared to be wearing some kind of vest over his jersey for carrying bidons - I guess it's easier than trying to stuff several bidons up and down the back of one's jersey.

Yeah - new this year:

http://pelotonmagazine.com/goods/new-water-bottle-vest-at-tour-de-france/

The simple ideas are always the best.

I do hope mine arrives in time for the HGWI1300 next week - just need to convince someone to be my domestique!
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: madcow on 18 July, 2014, 02:16:22 pm
First Cav, then Froome, now Talansky (tbc in the morning): my fantasy team is getting very thin.

ditto Froome and Talansky.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: D.A.L.E. on 18 July, 2014, 02:27:27 pm
Top bidon distribution by the Bretagne soigneur just now: four in as many seconds - the last being to a rider that was virtually passed him  :thumbsup:

That was quite impressive. On the subject of hydration, one of the Saxo-Tinkoff riders appeared to be wearing some kind of vest over his jersey for carrying bidons - I guess it's easier than trying to stuff several bidons up and down the back of one's jersey.
Yeah - new this year:

http://pelotonmagazine.com/goods/new-water-bottle-vest-at-tour-de-france/

The simple ideas are always the best.

I do hope mine arrives in time for the HGWI1300 next week - just need to convince someone to be my domestique!

I put this idea forward to Inner Ring last year on Twitter and was fully mocked.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 18 July, 2014, 02:48:37 pm
Does he put on the vest then shove bottles in or do they swing out the whole thing at him at one go, ready filled? That would be entertaining to watch.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: woollypigs on 18 July, 2014, 04:06:33 pm
Come on Nibbles :)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 18 July, 2014, 04:23:57 pm
Ritchie à la porte.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: woollypigs on 18 July, 2014, 04:38:12 pm
Someone put an anchor on his bike
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Karla on 18 July, 2014, 06:06:49 pm
Could Sky finally set G free to have a go at a stage please?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Andrew Br on 18 July, 2014, 11:10:52 pm
Could Sky finally set G free to have a go at a stage please?

I think they will do now, it's the only way they'll get something out of this year's race.
Unless one of their climbers gets a mountain stage win (unlikely).





Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: andyoxon on 19 July, 2014, 08:48:34 am
Nibali is just impressively calm, focused, and uber efficient... seems to have le tour win int bag, barring a fall.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 19 July, 2014, 10:44:29 am
Poor old Fuglsang had a nasty roll yesterday. The French commentators described him as being "burnt" from road friction, even his fingers.

Lautaret, Izoard & Risoul today. My legs ache just sitting here.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Pingu on 19 July, 2014, 03:16:17 pm
The area we're going to next month  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 19 July, 2014, 03:24:46 pm
Good luck with the weather. The other day I met a bunch who had just come up from Nice that way. Rain & fog up top, 4°C. Not like today.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 19 July, 2014, 04:27:05 pm
'ja Majka?

(click to show/hide)

Sorry...
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: madcow on 20 July, 2014, 08:59:29 am
but isn't that  the flag of the Russian Federation on the lower back of his jersey?

Just reviewed my team and realised that I have the OTHER Pineau , not the one with one foot on the podium.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: mcshroom on 20 July, 2014, 04:09:55 pm
Wow, what a finish

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Jaded on 20 July, 2014, 04:10:27 pm
Nail biting.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: woollypigs on 20 July, 2014, 04:14:56 pm
When that train gets going it is flipping fast.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: mcshroom on 20 July, 2014, 04:16:23 pm
Martin still shot off the front like out of a cannon though. Would have been interesting if he'd pushed hard to catch the front when he broke free rather than trying to set things up for Renshaw
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 20 July, 2014, 04:31:19 pm
Bloody sprinters spoil everything. Boring.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: De Sisti on 20 July, 2014, 06:02:42 pm
Listening to the commentators on Eurosport and ITV4, they sometimes refer to the race manual/handbook,
presumably given to all of the riders. I'd love to get hold of one to see the sort of information it contains.



Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Jaded on 20 July, 2014, 06:21:55 pm
Don't go up the inside of lorries?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: DaveJ on 20 July, 2014, 08:32:35 pm
If they'd just kept going!  Those moments looking at each other....

Thats part of what makes it so fascinating.

Dave
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 20 July, 2014, 09:12:23 pm
Jack Bauer :'(.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Séamas M. on 20 July, 2014, 09:16:40 pm
Maybe should have been Mersyside this past day?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 20 July, 2014, 09:18:44 pm
Listening to the commentators on Eurosport and ITV4, they sometimes refer to the race manual/handbook,
presumably given to all of the riders. I'd love to get hold of one to see the sort of information it contains.
Me too.  Presumably route, stage profile, details of major climbs and last few Kms, location of sprints, KoMs, feed zones, danger zones etc.  Probably not stuff that Paul Sherwen is continually quoting from (historical and geographical facts etc) but I'd have thought that the Tour provides that as well.

Hands up if you think Nibbles is clean..
Me. But I acknowledge
I'm a sucker for that kind of thing.
and have been fooled before.

My 'evidence'.  He was speaking out against doping 6 or 7 years ago when most pros were not. He's had a steady progression over several years. His coaches have not been directly associated with doping (I don't think) and nor has he. 
Admittedly the list of his management and cycling colleagues does not look good - Vino, Martinello (?) Basso, Scarponi etc - but what could he have done about that? 2 Italians generally outspoken about doping or generally acknowledged (yes, I know) to be clean - Vanotti and Pinotti - have said they think he is clean (even if he doesn't sweat much!)  He can't help it that he hasn't had the same questions about doping as Wiggins and Froome had, and when asked he apparently has taken them in his stride.

A different question. If you were a doping cyclist now what would you be using and what would you be doing to avoid detection?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 20 July, 2014, 09:30:00 pm
Cortisone. Big amongst the French according to Bassoons.

Or I'd be doing something new and undetectable.( took about 12-15 years of ubiquitous use before EPO got its own test)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 21 July, 2014, 08:05:39 am
Would the effects of cortisone show up in the biological passport?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 21 July, 2014, 08:24:17 am
It could show up in post-ride drug testing, à la Lance.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 21 July, 2014, 08:47:37 am
Would the effects of cortisone show up in the biological passport?

The passport contains a steroid profile, but from urine tests rather than blood tests. Testosterone,epitestosterone, androsterone, etiocholanolone, 5 á-androstanediol, and 5 â-androstanediol are the six steroids that are marked.

I believe that Cortisone is banned on race days but can be used in training with impunity. Apparently it has made quite a comeback
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 21 July, 2014, 09:02:02 am
We spent some hours marshalling overnight with an experienced veteran of the continental scene. The message was that tests are not as good as the authorities let on, that a single clinic in California has a big influence, and that if you took away all the pharmacology there'd still be fixing of rides for commercial and gambling reasons.

We all know this at heart, but wish to believe otherwise, because we like the narrative. We're like the courtiers in 'The Emperor's New Clothes'. It's easy for someone to point out the naked conflicts in our involvement with the status quo, but we still want the spectacle and the ceremonial. It's right to encourage critical scepticism as part of a coming of age. However I went through that a long time ago, and I live in a morally compromised world, where the Tour is an instructive tableau vivant of the world as it is. I think that's also the message that comes out of the classic film 'Breaking Away'. It's an interesting exercise to lend out your faith in the sure and certain knowledge that you'll be disappointed. But I forgive it all for helicopter shots of goats prancing along an Alpine ridge.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 21 July, 2014, 09:15:32 am
Quite. Its a circus.

How recent was this veteran's experience. What was the Californian clinic and who are its customers?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 21 July, 2014, 09:37:14 am
Working currently with trade teams. We weren't taking notes, as we were occupied with noting rider intervals while brewing-up and looking after the barbecue on the approach to a roundabout at four in the morning, and wondering who did 'Four in the Morning'.
It was Faron Young of course, quoted by Prefab Sprout in a song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eetd5JVGZoI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FVEUwDAfzU
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 21 July, 2014, 09:59:26 am
But I forgive it all for helicopter shots of goats prancing along an Alpine ridge.
But Alberto didn't make it as far as the Alps.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: T42 on 21 July, 2014, 11:07:52 am
How goaty is Alberto?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 21 July, 2014, 11:14:07 am
Well he does prance a bit, and there's a chamois link (which I can't work into a pun).
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: pdm on 21 July, 2014, 06:14:12 pm
My 2p worth.

There are some big problems with drug testing and for that matter, any testing!
Any test is a system whereby an action is performed on a system or substance to produce a measurable change in the presence of something being tested for. This change is hopefully different from that seen if the test is performed on a system or substance where that which is being tested for is known to be absent..
The first problem is that no test is perfect and every test has 4 parameters that determine how useful it is:
1. True positive rate (If the test is "positive" how likely is it to be correctly so?)
2. False positive rate (if the test is "positive" how likely is it to be incorrectly so?)
3. True negative rate (if the test is "negative" how likely is it to be correctly so?)
4. False negative rate (if the test is "negative"  how likely is it to be incorrectly so?)

These give the sensitivity of a test (how likely is it to turn up a "positive" for any reason) and the specificity (if positive, how likely is it positive for the right reason). Frequently, test specificity and sensitivity are inversely related.
Another problem arises in the war against the test. While a test may "work" in controlled test subjects, naughty boys may obfuscate the test with masking agents, etc., not all of which may be known to the testers.
Furthermore - tests specific to one substance may not detect a newer possibly more potent analog. New drugs are produced with subtly different structures all the time.
Finally, there is the problem of actual measurement - every measurement made has an error which injects random "noise" into a result.

The main problem lies in getting a result such that the False positive rate is as close to zero as possible to prevent the innocent being persecuted together with a True positive high enough for the test to be useful! This can sometimes severely restrict the sensitivity of a test...

There are also some things for which no tests exist.

Bottom line: No test is perfect. No test is bang up to date. There is plenty of room for error and misuse!

Are they riding "clean" in this Tour? Time will tell. I know some are, I suspect some are not. For the rest, time and judgement day will tell!
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 21 July, 2014, 06:22:54 pm
I'm not sure that the blood passport works in this way. It looks for changes in the constituents of blood rather than detection of substances.

I haven't a clue what is going on in the peloton, but I'd be amazed if it was nothing. Personally, I find Sky's 4 year history highly unusual.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: pdm on 21 July, 2014, 06:43:03 pm
I'm not sure that the blood passport works in this way. It looks for changes in the constituents of blood rather than detection of substances.

I haven't a clue what is going on in the peloton, but I'd be amazed if it was nothing. Personally, I find Sky's 4 year history highly unusual.

Indeed, the blood passport does measure "biological parameters" in the hope that these parameters will provide measurable values that will indicate the use of illegal practices.

"The haematological module tests for certain markers in the body that identify the enhancement of oxygen transport. The specific markers the module tests for include haematocrit, haemoglobin, red blood cell count, percentage of reticulocytes, reticulocytes count, mean corpuscular volume, mean corpuscular haemoglobin, mean red cell distribution width, and immature reticulocyte fraction.

The steroidal module collects information on markers for steroid doping and aims to identify endogenous anabolic androgenic steroids. The specific markers the module tests for include testosterone, epitestosterone, the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio, androsterone, and etiocholanolone.
" (http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/Science_Medicine/Athlete_Biological_Passport/WADA-ABP-Operating-Guidelines_v4.0-EN.pdf)

It is a limited set of tests that, used together, hope to illuminate doping practices. They are still a set of tests and the caveats with respect to sensitivity and specificity apply!
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Nuncio on 22 July, 2014, 01:34:02 pm
All very interesting but the circus is back today, so the thread can be returned to us disbelief suspenders.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Auntie Helen on 22 July, 2014, 03:57:18 pm
The German commentator said the other day that Thibaut Pinot had been taken by his team for several days on some car race tracks for some fast driving to help him with his descending/bike handling and it seems to have worked. Did the Brit commentators mention this?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Biff on 22 July, 2014, 04:04:08 pm
Thibaut Pinot is going down well, but his brothers Grigio, Gris and Noir go down even better.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 22 July, 2014, 06:14:50 pm
The German commentator said the other day that Thibaut Pinot had been taken by his team for several days on some car race tracks for some fast driving to help him with his descending/bike handling and it seems to have worked. Did the Brit commentators mention this?

They've scarcely stopped mentioning it...
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 22 July, 2014, 06:30:32 pm
All very interesting but the circus is back today, so the thread can be returned to us disbelief suspenders.

Well the thread title is 'TdF spoilers'

Id say we are on topic ;)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 22 July, 2014, 06:35:30 pm
Given today's winner, suspension of disbelief is essential.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 23 July, 2014, 09:43:52 am
Given today's winner, suspension of disbelief is essential.

It was funny when Voekler realised that he'd wound up the wrong man by dallying to enable Gautier to come up.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: woollypigs on 23 July, 2014, 03:04:45 pm
Bollox me ....
Quote
IAM Cycling will lose Reto Hollenstein who crashed early in the stage but still managed to make it to the finish line.  The tall Swiss rider was examined in the Tour de France’s mobile clinic at the finish line, which detected a pneumothorax of the right lung, in addition to multiple abrasions.
 
After finishing 26’47” behind the winner, Hollenstein understandably was in tears at the news.  Having crashed following a touch of wheels with another rider, the Swiss German from the Thurgau region of the country, climbed back up on his bike and began a pursuit of more than 60 kilometers to rejoin the peloton.  Having the courage to ignore the pain, Hollenstein succeeded in finishing the difficult stage in the gruppetto.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 23 July, 2014, 05:21:40 pm
I'll have whatever Tinkoff-Saxo are on 'cos it sure makes you cycle up hill quickly.....
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: αdαmsκι on 24 July, 2014, 04:40:58 pm
Impressive Unbelievable from Nibbles.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: woollypigs on 24 July, 2014, 04:55:11 pm
Impressive Unbelievable from Nibbles.
Yup
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 24 July, 2014, 05:01:22 pm
Part of me wishes Nibbles had done a proper job on that daft bint with the phone :demon:
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Oaky on 24 July, 2014, 05:08:16 pm
Part of me wishes Nibbles had done a proper job on that daft bint with the phone :demon:

Yep.  Or, failing that, the phone being trashed by a Gendarme on a motorbike, or a team car.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 24 July, 2014, 05:16:29 pm
Impressive Unbelievable from Nibbles.

...and yet where are the incessant doping questions from journalists and the booing and spitting from spectators?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 24 July, 2014, 05:36:21 pm
Hardly Nibbles' fault though...
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Glover Fan on 24 July, 2014, 08:23:54 pm
I am not questioning Nibble's performance tbh. He was my tip before the tour. He is my GC contender in Fantasy tour.

I remember when Wiggins won it two years ago, that Nibbles was constantly making attacks and they would have stuck were it not for the robotic Team Sky reeling him in with their well drilled train that year.

He wasn't riding for Astana then either. He has always been a decent climber since I've been watching and he did win the Giro last year.

He is just looking so good because the closest contenders appear mediocre in comparison.

I've always rated him as a rider, but who knows I may be let down by yet another pro.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Peter on 24 July, 2014, 08:34:15 pm
I think scepticism is probably going to be many people's default position for decades to come.  The difficulty is deciding when something ceases to be sports science and becomes doping.  I would love Nibali's performance to be honest (and it may be) but he is annihilating other supposedly top professionals at will - he's 7 minutes clear - and he's doing it without any visible sign of effort.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Karla on 24 July, 2014, 10:43:23 pm
He could at least try to make it look a bit believable, like occasionally grimacing, looking strained or choosing not to go on the attack practically every day. 
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 24 July, 2014, 11:00:38 pm
With the demise of Froome and Clentador Nibbles is mostly beating no-one of much note.  Valverde looks very second-rate this year.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: madcow on 24 July, 2014, 11:02:04 pm
unless you count his downhill performance today.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: geraldc on 24 July, 2014, 11:38:02 pm
Relive the phone incident at your leisure

http://gfycat.com/ImpassionedShamelessCapybara
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 25 July, 2014, 12:04:27 am
Not even a selfie!  Judging by the raised left arm and facial expression only a lungfish could copy, I'd guess she was on the dog to someone back home and SHOUTING "look, look, I'm on the telly!"

She'll be a reality TV star by this time next week.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Glover Fan on 25 July, 2014, 07:18:53 am
With the demise of Froome and Clentador Nibbles is mostly beating no-one of much note.  Valverde looks very second-rate this year.
Valverde has been absolute pants. Quintana wanted to race the tour this year, but i'm led to believe Valverde through a strop about it as he wanted to lead the team. I think Quintana is much better rider.

If Pinot Grigio can improve his descending, which isn't as bad as everyone makes out, he could be challenging in years to come. He is only 24.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: woollypigs on 25 July, 2014, 07:59:37 am
Drugs or not, I think this year has been a great year. Ok Nibbles (Froome and Contador would have had a run for their money*) grabbed the lead early, but he continued to attack. Then there is the fight for the two other steps. Great to see so many young riders coming up. Oh and a French person on one of the steps. The green jersey I think needs to be rewritten, it feels not right that you can "win" that in the second week and with that much difference. The polka dot, is still interesting, though some years a bit boring. The white one I enjoy watching.

Young riders like Quintana, Pinot etc coming up, I think the next few years will be great for cycling. Lets hope they are not just "proving" themselves with all the attacks and when they get the big deals they go back to the "old school" ways of controlling the race.

* I so hoped that Quintana would have been in this year
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: gene hunt on 25 July, 2014, 12:52:45 pm
I have lost interest in this tour being honest  :(
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Hot Flatus on 25 July, 2014, 01:40:55 pm
Nibbles will  get a 1 m euro bonus from Astana for winning.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Vince on 25 July, 2014, 02:11:15 pm
A different question. If you were a doping cyclist now what would you be using and what would you be doing to avoid detection?

Sorry, catching up at the back!

Try:
 Homoeopathic concentrations of any performance enhancing drug you like
 Hypnosis
 Acup*ncture
 Origami
None of which introduce anything into the body, but could have psycological effect
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 25 July, 2014, 02:35:31 pm
TENS machine to block pain.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 25 July, 2014, 02:41:17 pm
Interpretive dance?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Gareth Rees on 25 July, 2014, 02:53:20 pm
A different question. If you were a doping cyclist now what would you be using and what would you be doing to avoid detection?

Under the biological passport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport) regime, unexplained changes in the levels of biological markers are suspicious, so drug taking needs to be little and often ("microdosing"). Also, the chaotic environment and close scrutiny of grand tours (not to mention the no needle policy (http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENewsDetails.asp?id=NzMzMw&MenuId=MTI2Mjc)) make it risky to be injecting regularly during the race.

So I'd be looking into genetic doping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_doping). The idea would be to create a population of cells whose genes have been modified to produce extra EPO. The continual production would mean that there would be no suspicious spikes on the biological passport, and the cells would remain hidden from testers inside the body. (This would be most suitable for a young rider who does not have an established passport history. Also the costs and risks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy#Technological_hurdles) are considerable.)
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mr Larrington on 26 July, 2014, 08:35:30 pm
Martin was so much faster than everyone else, he must be doping ::-)

Also, what did AG2R do to upset She Who Must Not Be Named?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: woollypigs on 26 July, 2014, 08:55:34 pm
Also, what did AG2R do to upset She Who Must Not Be Named?
That was a very sarky clap from one of the riders.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 26 July, 2014, 09:18:15 pm
Hamsterskins?
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: CrinklyLion on 27 July, 2014, 03:49:30 pm
I just realised that the finish of the time trial was about a 5 minute walk in one direction from where I used to live, and about the same in a different direction from what was my local.
Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 28 July, 2014, 04:12:47 pm
Also, what did AG2R do to upset She Who Must Not Be Named?
That was a very sarky clap from one of the riders.


What's this about?

Anyway, what an enjoyable Tour! Really enjoyed it.

Interesting comments from Sean Kelly here re Sagan's performance:

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/07/sean-kelly-tour-de-france-blog-i-know-exactly-how-sagan-feels/

Title: Re: TdF (spoilers)
Post by: woollypigs on 28 July, 2014, 05:01:55 pm
Visitations on two bikes and one rider clapped slowly at the mechanics who were slow of the mark.