Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Freewheeling => Tandems => Topic started by: quixoticgeek on 27 August, 2019, 11:56:35 am

Title: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: quixoticgeek on 27 August, 2019, 11:56:35 am

Looking at photos of mixed tandem crews, in nearly all of the photos, the man is on the front, and the woman riding stoker.

As someone who has never ridden a tandem. I'm wondering if there is any reason why this always happens?

J
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: Kim on 27 August, 2019, 12:12:37 pm
Men are, on average, taller than women.

On a conventional tandem[1], stability (particularly when starting and stopping) is greatly improved by having the taller rider with the strongest arms on the front:  Their job is to support the bike and the stoker until it starts bicycling.  The stoker's job (in addition to being Always Right) is to provide a burst of power to get it up to speed as quickly as possible, while the pilot controls the wobble and sorts their own feet out.

But also, patriarchy.


[1] The small-wheeled Circe Helios is a notable exception, and is extremely forgiving of short pilots and heavy stokers.  MTB geometries tend to be a bit less wobbly, too.  Different rules apply with recumbents, trikes and other exotica, where leg length or ability to shift weight around when cornering may be a more important factor.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: telstarbox on 27 August, 2019, 12:22:03 pm

But also, patriarchy.
 

See also: straight car-owning couples where the man nearly always drives.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: quixoticgeek on 27 August, 2019, 12:24:38 pm
See also: straight car-owning couples where the man nearly always drives.

Well the crash testers don't usually crash test with a 50th percentile woman dummy in the drivers seat, if they even test with them at all.

But that's off topic...

J
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: Kim on 27 August, 2019, 12:28:49 pm

But also, patriarchy.
 

See also: straight car-owning couples where the man nearly always drives.

My grandparents did this chronically, which baffled me because my grandmother was a strong-minded woman who drove ambulances during the war.  Of course that might have been the reason.  Then she had a stroke and it became academic.  I don't think I ever saw her drive.

My parents too, but to a lesser extent (they'd swap on long journeys, do the sensible thing when picking up or dropping off[1], and when they eventually had two cars, the car's usual driver[2] would do the driving).


[1] The little swapping-sides dance you see people do at railway stations always baffles me.
[2] Of course in straight two-car owning couples, this generally means the Big Man Car gets used for longer journeys.  In my parents' case, the Big Man Car was usually at the wrong end of the driveway and prone to mechanicals, so this was less of a factor.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 27 August, 2019, 12:29:41 pm
Tandems work better with the bigger, heavier rider in front. Steering control, aerodynamics, weight on the wheels, most ways of assessing ‘better’. If the riders are equally sized, the stronger rider should generally be on the back. There have been several tandem teams with the woman in front but rarely when the woman is noticeably smaller, usually because of blindness.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: Kim on 27 August, 2019, 12:32:29 pm
There have been several tandem teams with the woman in front but rarely when the woman is noticeably smaller, usually because of blindness.

And sometimes couples where the larger rider is blind may be unable to control a conventional tandem properly (or at least sufficiently confidently) for this reason.  There are Darkside alternatives that people aren't always aware of...
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 27 August, 2019, 12:34:40 pm
There is a thriving paralympic tandem racing scene but recumbent options don’t exist for them.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: giropaul on 27 August, 2019, 12:44:21 pm
There was a well- known couple from the Southend club I think, that rode with the taller woman on the front. As others have said, it’s about size/ aerodynamics and weight distribution.
In track racing ( that I did) it may be about tactical experience and just how mad you are :-)
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: Chris S on 27 August, 2019, 02:18:54 pm
We've seen interchangable crews, and envied them. There are tactical advantages to being able to swap. I once overtook a tandem in the wee-small hours where the stoker was fast asleep, her head rested on his lower back. We found it funny - but he pointed out "We'll swap over later and it'll be my turn for a nap".

Men tend to have more upper-body strength than women (it's a tendency, OK? I'm not being genderist here, don't shoot me!) and most of the balancing, wrangling, and wind compensation comes from the Pilot. I sure as hell know this when we've had a break from tandemming and I've lost all my upper-body fitness.

There's no hard and fast rule though - it's about the team, not the gender. ISTR on Damon's 2015 PBP video, the pilot of a female team had shermers, so they swapped roles.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: fimm on 27 August, 2019, 02:26:14 pm
... If the riders are equally sized, the stronger rider should generally be on the back...
That's interesting. My husband and I are sufficiently similar in size that we should be able to ride a tandem either way round (given quick-release seat adjustment - there's a difference in leg length). He's the stronger rider though. I think he'd hate being on the back because he likes to go down hills a lot faster than I do.
We've only been on a tandem once and didn't get on at all well with it - but I don't think we had long enough to get used to it.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 27 August, 2019, 02:39:29 pm
Whichever way your relationship is going, a tandem will get you there faster.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: Phil W on 27 August, 2019, 03:47:20 pm

But also, patriarchy.
 

See also: straight car-owning couples where the man nearly always drives.

Unless returning from the pub
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: essexian on 27 August, 2019, 03:55:13 pm
CBH passed her test around 10 years ago and has driven me just once and that was when I was unable to drive after having had a fall. She says she prefers it when I drive as I have had a licence for some 35 years and, despite owning a BMW, don't drive like a twat.

However, I do wish she wouldn't sit in the back and make me wear a cap when I drive her. 

Anyway, returning to cycling, if anyone ever wants a stoker, I would love to give a it a try: I am a short arse so would fit in well behind!

Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: fimm on 27 August, 2019, 04:12:59 pm

But also, patriarchy.
See also: straight car-owning couples where the man nearly always drives.
Unless returning from the pub
God, we resemble this remark... my excuse is that he likes driving and I don't. I do drive sometimes other than when he's had a beer. Matters are complicated by the way hire car companies charge you stupid amounts to have a second driver so most of the time we don't bother.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: The French Tandem on 28 August, 2019, 07:14:32 am
Agreed to all previous posts, but there is also another reason. In many (but not all) tandem couples, one of the rider was already an experienced cyclist beforehand, while the other is a beginner. It is always easier to ride a tandem when the experienced cyclist is on the front seat.

Some folks here know that S and me are very differently sized. Both of us would be happy to swap positions, but it would require a radically different machine!

A
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 28 August, 2019, 08:59:03 am


There's no hard and fast rule though - it's about the team, not the gender. ISTR on Damon's 2015 PBP video, the pilot of a female team had shermers, so they swapped roles.

It was towards the end of the 2011. They were Swiss, and the usual stoker swapped over at the tops of hills, and then swapped back as climbing isn't as affected by Shermer's. I did a bit of guiding downhill for a Shermer's affected solo rider in 2007. He was still climbing better than me, and it was a long way out, around Le Ribay. I would have finished out of time if I'd stayed with him. Heather insisted I sleep 90 minutes at Villaines, and by the time I woke up, he'd gone off on his own.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: blackburnrod on 28 August, 2019, 10:03:34 am
I once did a fairly long ride (500 milesin 24hrs)on the front at 6ft1,12st with my son 6'5 14st on the back without problems.Exit Stage Left may have a picture.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: The French Tandem on 28 August, 2019, 10:31:41 am
I once did a fairly long ride (500 milesin 24hrs)on the front at 6ft1,12st with my son 6'5 14st on the back without problems.Exit Stage Left may have a picture.

No one said it was impossible to do it that way. It's just a bit easier when the heaviest rider is on the front. Before I met S, I learned riding a tandem by volunteering for a group of visually impaired people. I was assigned to a guy who was over 120kg, with zero cycling experience. I was 85kg at that time. The first rides were, let's say slow and erratic to be polite, and the tandem-shaped object we were sitting on didn't help much, but after some time we managed to ride over 50 miles in a relatively comfortable manner!
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 28 August, 2019, 10:34:35 am
I once did a fairly long ride (500 milesin 24hrs)on the front at 6ft1,12st with my son 6'5 14st on the back without problems.Exit Stage Left may have a picture.

Before my time Rod. The best I can find is from a 12 in 1990, on a site devoted to time-trialling legends. Interesting driveline, nice socks. It's a fine example of 'patriarchy' in action.

(http://www.ttlegends.org/wp-content/uploads/photo-gallery/.original/goodfellow.jpg)
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: drossall on 28 August, 2019, 11:04:19 pm
See also: straight car-owning couples where the man nearly always drives.
Doesn't always have to be patriarchy. My wife has a "Why keep a dog and bark yourself?" attitude to these things.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 29 August, 2019, 09:47:10 am
MrsC nearly always drives (unless we are going to the pub or eating out, in which case I drive). She likes driving, has no problem staying awake on very long drives (I do). It just makes sense.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: Manotea on 29 August, 2019, 09:58:17 am
Stoker v Pilot?

I'm no expert but AIUI the pilot usually wins...

Thank you for listening to my joke. :)
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 29 August, 2019, 10:09:02 am
I once did a fairly long ride (500 milesin 24hrs)on the front at 6ft1,12st with my son 6'5 14st on the back without problems.Exit Stage Left may have a picture.

You two were close enough in size that putting the big bloke on the back would be no trouble and might have been an advantage.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: drossall on 29 August, 2019, 10:24:05 am
Stoker v Pilot?

I'm no expert but AIUI the pilot usually wins...
I don't know. My wife had less confidence in my bike handling than I did, when we rode together. Made for a tandem that wouldn't quite go round corners like I thought it would. No comment on whose judgment was right, mind you ;D

I have heard it said that the best stoker is one who doesn't know how to ride a bike, and will therefore not attempt to steer from the back.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 29 August, 2019, 11:38:33 am
I once did a fairly long ride (500 milesin 24hrs)on the front at 6ft1,12st with my son 6'5 14st on the back without problems.Exit Stage Left may have a picture.

You two were close enough in size that putting the big bloke on the back would be no trouble and might have been an advantage.

Rod's told me that his son was a student at the time, so they might have been riding the tandem before Rod became the smaller one.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: blackburnrod on 29 August, 2019, 12:21:48 pm
We had ridden tandem together before but not between Peter age 12 and 20 (the year before the 500) and only then in one 100 TT and one 12hr TT and a few 10s. The tandem was designed to as near as possible replicate each riders solo bike position.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 29 August, 2019, 01:57:49 pm
That explains why it's not as 'soft' a record as it seems. The Brabbins have held the mixed 24 record for a while as well.

The ladies' record is an interesting one. It might be held by Charlotte and Julian OTP, but they set out to do an Audax performance, and that's reflected in the distance. I remember that they picked up speed towards the end, and their finish TK was packing up as they arrived. Charlotte went ballistic, I've still got the video somewhere. That's a record that's well within reach.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: The French Tandem on 30 August, 2019, 07:22:53 am
I have heard it said that the best stoker is one who doesn't know how to ride a bike, and will therefore not attempt to steer from the back.

Yes and no. Blind persons make excellent stokers since they will always have a neutral behaviour, no matter what happens around the bicycle. Non-blind stokers who don't know how to ride a bike can be dangerous as they can have panic reactions and try to lean the bike on the wrong side, while experienced cyclists are less likely to panic.

Overall, I would say that the most important thing is mutual trust between pilot and stoker. On our tandem, we have a third brake which is actuated from the rear handlebar. We use this brake only to gently slow down during long descents, never for emergency stopping. Using this brake inappropriately, like during sharp  cornering, would certainly result in a crash.  I (pilot) am perfectly confident that S (stoker) will never use the third brake unless being told to do so. On the other hand, every time I had a tandem ride with someone who wants to try something new, I disconnected the brake cable beforehand.

A
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: 24hourmaths on 30 August, 2019, 09:09:03 am
That explains why it's not as 'soft' a record as it seems. The Brabbins have held the mixed 24 record for a while as well.

The ladies' record is an interesting one. It might be held by Charlotte and Julian OTP, but they set out to do an Audax performance, and that's reflected in the distance. I remember that they picked up speed towards the end, and their finish TK was packing up as they arrived. Charlotte went ballistic, I've still got the video somewhere. That's a record that's well within reach.

The Brabbins do have the Mixed 24 record with 464 miles, putting just 1.6 miles onto the Boons ride of 1986

There is no record listed for the Women's Tandem 24 hour currently. Similar to the End to End...
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 30 August, 2019, 11:10:52 am
I used to see Dave Brabbin in the lanes around Eccleston, as he lives in Wigan, and worked near Preston. He's probably retired by now. Both he and Eileen seem to be active in nature conservation, on the 'Flashes' that abound in Wigan.

It surprises me that there's no 24 Ladies tandem record. As I said, Charlotte was very annoyed when they arrived at a closing Timekeeper. They'd been adopting an Audax style of riding, and treated Prees Heath as a pitstop, so it was a surprise when they got the bit between their teeth on the finish circuit. There's a video of course, the finish wasn't as envisaged, due to multiple expletives. So I just did a music video treatment.

I don't think the 24 requires a 'standard' to register, but LEJOG does. My mind is now drifting off, considering who could pilot and stoke a female tandem contender. Murray/ Spearman would be the most powerful combo, but both are solo prospects.

https://vimeo.com/1422942
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: 24hourmaths on 30 August, 2019, 02:17:51 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/MMQN45p/2008-Ladies-Tandem.jpg)

Well, they are in the results - I wonder why it isn't comp record? Perhaps they didn't apply in time?
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 30 August, 2019, 02:42:53 pm
I remember the day well. Andy Southworth succumbed to a bit of sunstroke, and I lent him my rather disreputable Lidl 'Buff' copy. They might have made 400 if he'd avoided that.

The Barnes/Norman tandem was off last, and as I say, they weren't expected to make it past the TK at the Cock O' Barton, so the control at Coddington was packing up as they arrived. Charlotte's robust response was a bit of a culture clash. They'd achieved their aim of 5 AUK points for getting beyond 500km, so they just moved on.

For me it's a de-facto record.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: blackburnrod on 30 August, 2019, 05:39:40 pm
I was the chief timekeeper for the Mersey 24 when Barnes/Norman did their ride.At the finish and again a few weeks later by email I advised they needed to claim the record and told them how to,but they never did.
Title: Re: Stoker vs Pilot
Post by: mzjo on 30 August, 2019, 07:38:43 pm
Back to OT I am sure you have got this all wrong. The woman is on the back because in that position she is in total control of proceedings and can make life sheer hell for the pilot if she is so inclined. On the front she can only direct what direction the tandem is going. On the back she can direct where the relationship is going and has a (or both) free hand(s). Wearing bib shorts is only a limited protection against a determined female stoker; DAHIKT
The reality about weight and size is that the steadiness of a stoker makes far more difference than size weight or strength per se. I have ridden with my first MiL  who was a little scrap and rode so steadily that you didn't even know she was there. I have ridden with my BiL when he weighed 120kgs (I weigh about 85). You certainly couldn't ignore the mass but he was so steady it made no difference (not being a cyclist might have helped in his case ). I had a regular non-seeing stoker who was about my weight and who wriggled and jiggled like anything towards the end of a ride when his bum was getting sore. A lot of the other pilots refused to ride with him, he was so offputting!