BR vs BRM

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I well remember pushing ESL up a number of hills. It was fun while it lasted but my arm was getting a bit sore by the time we stopped. I wasn't so keen on doing the same thing all the way to St Neots.

The problem is that the current AUK regs regarding personal support are:
9.9.2 Riders must be self-sufficient. Personal support is only permitted at the discretion of the organiser, with the agreement of AUK.
Organisers may provide support such as food and rest facilities at controls and route guidance. Riders remain responsible for their own welfare and may stop for food and rest at any place.
SNIP
9.9.4 Where riders’ personal support is permitted, the rider and their helpers agree:
(a) Personal support is only allowed at controls
(b) Not to drive a motor vehicle on a section of route in use by riders, except within 1km of a control or in the case of an accident or emergency.
(c) The rider will be held responsible for the behaviour of their personal helpers.

It would have been better for the emphasised sections to have been LEL-specific, rather than general.

The 'self-sufficient' aspect refers to between controls. Support can be provided by the organiser between controls, if they wish, as Simon did for ESL.

[Exit Stage Left]

I was keen to get to the A14 junction, so that Simon wouldn't have to drive on the route, and wouldn't need to navigate.

I'd encourage that kind of support, rather than at controls, as it encourages supporters to keep to the trunk roads. A specified course for support vehicles is provided at PBP, and it generates a certain amount of camaraderie.

[whosatthewheel]

Love the blue Ambrosio Excellence rim!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

ESL has always been stylish. Just check out that pair of Ergo LH and STI RH levers.

[whosatthewheel]

ESL has always been stylish. Just check out that pair of Ergo LH and STI RH levers.

Makes total sense... Ergos ratchet front is great, whereas Shimano escape system sucks... the rear is pretty much the same across the brands, so easier to go for Shimano which costs less to maintain

[Cudzoziemiec]

That is only because of a bullshit rule. Every other country takes the approach that you can have whatever personal support you like at controls but only organiser-provided support between controls. Until quite recently, AUK did the same and Heather's brevet was under the old rules. Apparently AUK recently had to change its rules with regards to personal support, purely to limit personal support at LEL controls. A LEL-specific rule regarding personal support would have been better.

Not sure I understand the concept of organiser-provided support between controls. How is that a thing?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Think of the motos at PBP, for one. Some overseas organisers of long and remote brevets patrol the route in motor vehicles, which can be very helpful where it is difficult to carry enough water.

[Exit Stage Left]

Love the blue Ambrosio Excellence rim!

It's actually a Mavic Cosmos. I'd had a pair of wheels made up by Paul Hewitt for PBP 2003, Black Ambrosio rims on XT hubs, but they got totalled in a collision with a scooter at the top of the climb out of Fougeres, on the return.

There was a reluctance to get the Police involved, so it was sorted out by the controller at Fougeres, who came up after the control closure.

I was driven down to Fougeres to buy the last pair of wheels in the shop. I liked the Cosmos wheels, but the rear was ultimately too fragile.

I started LEL 2005 on the pair, but changed to the spare 36 spoke with a tandem rim, that I had waiting at Thorne. That was one advantage of a Thorne start. Here's a picture of me at Coxwold, taken by Frankly Frankie, with the Cosmos rear still intact.



Ultimately, a lot more stories seem to emerge from BRMs. There's usually more volunteer input, and I've always relied on the kindness of strangers.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Think of the motos at PBP, for one. Some overseas organisers of long and remote brevets patrol the route in motor vehicles, which can be very helpful where it is difficult to carry enough water.

First I've heard of motos at PBP. What do they do? But I increasingly get the impression that PBP and LEL are organized in rather different ways to other audaxes (in the UK at least).

[Somnolent]

The problem is that the current AUK regs regarding personal support are:
....

More appropriate here?

[Exit Stage Left]

Think of the motos at PBP, for one. Some overseas organisers of long and remote brevets patrol the route in motor vehicles, which can be very helpful where it is difficult to carry enough water.

First I've heard of motos at PBP. What do they do? But I increasingly get the impression that PBP and LEL are organized in rather different ways to other audaxes (in the UK at least).

I film from mine, but the main work is done by ANEC, 'Association Normande d'Escorte Cycliste'. They lead out the starts, patrol the route, and ensure safety at major road crossings. Here's a montage and some video one of them did in 2011. Good lads. They were amazed that my 1994 K75 still had functioning ABS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf-9o5rhGU0

[citoyen]

One thing that has not been mentioned with regard to BRMs is that they are listed in ACP's international calendar, which would be an advantage for an organiser who wants to attract riders from abroad. Not that a bog-standard 200 is likely to be a major draw outside the immediate area, but you never know!

Anyway, to go back to the original question, what are the pros and cons for an organiser of listing an event as a BRM? As far as I can see, they are

Pro
- Allows riders to use them as qualifiers for international events (not only PBP).
- Count towards ACP SR and other awards.
- Sense of being part of the wider randonneuring community (the ACP stamp in the brevet, listing in the ACP calendar).

Con
- No instant validation option.
- Over-distance restriction.

Two of the Pro reasons are practical, one is purely subjective and has no practical benefit. I don't think anyone believes a BRM is in any meaningful sense better than a BR, but all are valid reasons for some riders to prefer BRM events.

As we've ascertained, the set time limit for BRMs is neither a pro nor a con, since in many cases it allows the rider more time to complete the distance than a BR.

The reason for the question in the first place was because I'd read something about the pros and cons of BR vs BRM, which mentioned that some riders 'seek out' BRMs. I can't for the life of me remember where I read this, though - I thought it was in the organisers handbook, along with the bit about the increased validation fees, but I can no longer find the relevant passage. Maybe it was an out-of-date version of the handbook I was looking at. Obviously the bit about increased validation fees is no longer true anyway.

[Manotea]

Let's explore the repeated assertion that BRMs are REQUIRED (as in, no other form of qualification would be accepted) as qualifiers for events.

Can you give examples other than PBP (for which ACP stipulate a current year ACP/BRM SR)?

Beyond that, to what extent do ACP/LRM events have any form of pre-qualification?

[frankly frankie]

Two of the Pro reasons are practical,

Is there a mechanism for claiming ACP SR and other awards?
Other, that is, than convoluted correspondence possibly involving intermediaries (which is OK once or twice but wouldn't scale up well).

[simonp]

Think of the motos at PBP, for one. Some overseas organisers of long and remote brevets patrol the route in motor vehicles, which can be very helpful where it is difficult to carry enough water.

First I've heard of motos at PBP. What do they do? But I increasingly get the impression that PBP and LEL are organized in rather different ways to other audaxes (in the UK at least).

PBP also has support at the roadside from stalls providing crepes, cafes staying open all night.

None of this is /personal/ support which is not permitted.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

You are correct that BRM listing may attract foreigners, even to shorter BRMs. Several times during work or recreational trips in the last few years, I've squeezed in a BRM of 200 to 400km on a borrowed or rented bike. It can be quite difficult to find and translate the relevant details of a Thai brevet on their own website but all the important information is in the ACP listing.

[citoyen]

Let's explore the repeated assertion that BRMs are REQUIRED (as in, no other form of qualification would be accepted) as qualifiers for events.

Can you give examples other than PBP (for which ACP stipulate a current year ACP/BRM SR)?

Beyond that, to what extent do ACP/LRM events have any form of pre-qualification?

I'm taking LWaB's word for that, assuming that as someone who does a lot of international events he knows what he's talking about.

Is there a mechanism for claiming ACP SR and other awards?

No idea, I've never been interested in trying to claim any awards - neither from ACP nor from AUK. Again, I'm taking it on trust.

If neither of those supposed reasons stand up to scrutiny, then I begin to wonder why AUK even offers BRMs outside PBP years.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Think of the motos at PBP, for one. Some overseas organisers of long and remote brevets patrol the route in motor vehicles, which can be very helpful where it is difficult to carry enough water.

First I've heard of motos at PBP. What do they do? But I increasingly get the impression that PBP and LEL are organized in rather different ways to other audaxes (in the UK at least).

PBP also has support at the roadside from stalls providing crepes, cafes staying open all night.

None of this is /personal/ support which is not permitted.

Personal support is a whole other kettle of fishy quavers. I was curious about the idea of organiser support between controls. LWaB said:

Every other country takes the approach that you can have whatever personal support you like at controls but only organiser-provided support between controls.

Which was in response to ESL's account of driving to a bike shop to get a part for a stranded rider – which I guess counts as personal support. In that context, mention of organiser-provided support seems to raise the possibility of phoning the organiser to do the same. I've no idea what the rules say but as far as I can see that's not in The Spirit of Audax and I can only imagine the response would be either "There's a bike shop in Z-ville, here's the number of a taxi firm" or "..."

[Somnolent]

Is there a mechanism for claiming ACP SR and other awards?
Other, that is, than convoluted correspondence possibly involving intermediaries (which is OK once or twice but wouldn't scale up well).

There's no online claiming, and like most things ACP the initial point of contact is ACP Rep (also referred to in the contact us page as the International Correspondent.

Just because he's from West Yorkshire doesn't mean the correspondence has to be convoluted 

[Exit Stage Left]

Simon wouldn't have come for just anybody. I was tasked with recording the event, and I produced a DVD. The whole film is now free to watch on Vimeo, in four parts. It cascades from paid for DVD, to paid online to free at some point. That's how I finance the equipment.

Simon was coming South anyway, and the A14 is the route to St Neots, so it was just a matter of diverting. I'd have carried on to St Neots otherwise.

Some might not know of Simon Doughty. he wrote the definitive book on long distance cycling, having won the Mersey Roads 24 and doing PBP. When it was obvious that Bernard Mawson wouldn't be doing LEL 2009, Simon did a lot of the work on LEL 2005. He's down as one of the sponsors on the shirt.

Not long after LEL 2005 he was run over by a drunk driver, as he went to work at Manchester Velodrome. Since then I've sent him a copy of the various LEL and PBP films, as he likes to see how things are developing. That's one of the reasons that I include some of the detail of organising.

The world of the 24 Hour/Audax rider is a bit different from the Cyclotourist/Audax rider. On the 24, you can pass the rider ever 10 miles in a car, and stand at the side of the road, passing up food and bottles. But there's prestige and a small amount of money at stake in the 24, not so much on an Audax.
24 Hour TTs are BRs.

[Somnolent]

24 Hour TTs are BRs.

 

24 hour TTs are NOT BRs
They are not AUK events, but AUK members riding them can claim AUK points by virtue of Appx 13.1.3, but that doesn't make them BRs (nor are they BPs or BRMs)

[Exit Stage Left]

If it quacks like a duck, then it is a duck as far as I'm concerned, so if it's possible to get an AUK SR with a ride, but not ACP awards, then it's a BR to me.

I do notice that there's a single point allocation across all the distances in the 24 now. So it looks like the spoilsports have been hobbling it.

[whosatthewheel]

Randonneur is someone who wanders, ideally quite far. The Italian Audax motto is something along the lines of "neither slow nor fast, but always far"... one would argue how a 24 hour TT which loops endless times around a 10-20 miles ring can be considered a "brevet". There is no navigation involved, there are no control points, there is no self sufficiency as most people show up with camper vans and troops of helpers.

Fair enough for the points, you pedal you get points, you can get points for a DIY, why not for a TT, but a "brevet" is a different thing altogether... I am not even sure DIY should be considered "brevets"... when in most cases they are well rehearsed loops around X's personal address

[frankly frankie]

Navigation is not an intrinsic part of randonneuring.  Nor is self-sufficiency really (despite what the regulations say).  Think of the blind tandem stoker, is he not a randonneur?

I do notice that there's a single point allocation across all the distances in the 24 now. So it looks like the spoilsports have been hobbling it.

Damon I think that's just a display issue - I'm fairly sure that the appropriate points have been allocated to each individual.

[whosatthewheel]

Navigation is not an intrinsic part of randonneuring.  Think of the blind tandem stoker, is he not a randonneur?

I do notice that there's a single point allocation across all the distances in the 24 now. So it looks like the spoilsports have been hobbling it.

Damon I think that's just a display issue - I'm fairly sure that the appropriate points have been allocated to each individual.

...but looping for 24 hours trying to outdo each other is not in the randonneur spirit