BR vs BRM

[jsabine]

Let's explore the repeated assertion that BRMs are REQUIRED (as in, no other form of qualification would be accepted) as qualifiers for events.

Can you give examples other than PBP (for which ACP stipulate a current year ACP/BRM SR)?

As a single example, the Rocky Mountain 1200 specifies an ACP SR, or ACP 1000km, or LRM 1200+km.

Most USA 1200km rides, AFAICT, (eg the Colorado High Country 1200) are slightly more open in that they'll allow ACP brevets or RUSA events to be used - but good luck with finding an RUSA brevet over here ...

(Fairly obviously, what's in black and white on the entry page isn't necessarily what the organisers will enforce, and I'd probably be a bit surprised if a polite email didn't lead to them accepting appropriate locally homologated rides on a case by case basis, but I certainly wouldn't book flights until I'd been told that they would ...)

[Exit Stage Left]

Obviously the 24 stands out from the other events in many ways, especially as it is the only 'Allure Libre' event on the calendar. From that standpoint alone, it deserves to be a BRM.

It would be possible to have other 'Allure Libre' timed events. If the upper and lower limits are there to facilitate controls, then a timed event doesn't need upper and lower limits, as we know how long the helpers are there for.

[Manotea]

Navigation is not an intrinsic part of randonneuring.  Think of the blind tandem stoker, is he not a randonneur?

I do notice that there's a single point allocation across all the distances in the 24 now. So it looks like the spoilsports have been hobbling it.

Damon I think that's just a display issue - I'm fairly sure that the appropriate points have been allocated to each individual.

...but looping for 24 hours trying to outdo each other is not in the randonneur spirit

I don't think anybody has claimed they are. That's not the point.

What has been said about a zillion times is that the one occasionally two 24 events in the UK are recognised by AUK for historical reasons, i.e., there was a time before AUK when such provided a route to ride PBP, and AUK looks to return the favour by supporting these events which have been through some very lean years by recognising them for AUK awards.

The reality is that by the time they come around participating AUKs will generally already have completed an SR series, so any inference that they are some sort of soft option/short cut to AUK glory is simply unfounded.

[Manotea]

... I am not even sure DIY should be considered "brevets"... when in most cases they are well rehearsed loops around X's personal address

Some are, most aren't, but where's your point?

Are you saying riders should be barred from taking part in events more than , say, 3 times because after that it's no longer 'audacious'?

I must have ridden the Poor Student 7 - 8 times and I'm a beginner compared to some. Fact is over time its inevitable audacious outings turn into old friends. What then?

[Somnolent]

I do notice that there's a single point allocation across all the distances in the 24 now. So it looks like the spoilsports have been hobbling it.

Not so - we used to create a sequence of dummy events at different distances to kludge the points into the system.
We now have a single 'event' (with a nominal points value), but as FF suggests the actual points awarded to each rider are adjusted to represent the distance they cover.
It's still a bit of a kludge - just slightly less messy, and easier to manage; but no one is hobbling it.

Obviously the 24 stands out from the other events in many ways, especially as it is the only 'Allure Libre' event on the calendar. From that standpoint alone, it deserves to be a BRM. 

I'm sorry but this is nonsense.  All AUK events are 'Allure Libre' **.
The only 'audax' events which are not 'Allure Libre' are those run under the rules of the UAF  - a style where everyone is kept together and at a fixed pace by a road captain, sometimes referred to as euraudax.

** For now, AUK affiliation with UAF and introduction of a few 'Allure Fixe' events is a possibility in the future.

[Somnolent]

What has been said about a zillion times is that the one occasionally two 24 events in the UK are recognised by AUK for historical reasons, i.e., there was a time before AUK when such provided a route to ride PBP, and AUK looks to return the favour by supporting these events which have been through some very lean years by recognising them for AUK awards.

Precisely. The key concept there is recognition.
The fact they can be used towards some AUK awards does not make them AUK events (BR or BRM or anything else).

[Exit Stage Left]

Obviously the 24 stands out from the other events in many ways, especially as it is the only 'Allure Libre' event on the calendar. From that standpoint alone, it deserves to be a BRM. 

I'm sorry but this is nonsense.  All AUK events are 'Allure Libre' **.
The only 'audax' events which are not 'Allure Libre' are those run under the rules of the UAF  - a style where everyone is kept together and at a fixed pace by a road captain, sometimes referred to as euraudax.

** For now, AUK affiliation with UAF and introduction of a few 'Allure Fixe' events is a possibility in the future.

I'm taking the French at face value, and 'Allure Libre' means 'Free Pace'. The 24 has no minimum or maximum speed, whereas all other points-bearing rides do, and are therefore not run at a free pace, simply within wide limits.

Obviously there are physical limits and the overall course for the 24 is scheduled for between 500 and 550 miles to cover the likely podium placings. But that's a recognition of what is achievable.

I like that 'inclusive' aspect of the 24, but the restriction to only members of CTT affiliated clubs excludes recumbents and some other types of machine. That revolves around insurance partly. I feel that it would be nice if there were other 'Free Pace' events. where the boldness to enter is not contained by fitting within the usual 15 to 30 kph template, and where any human-powered machine could enter.

The absence of 'Allure Fixe' events does leave a gap for those who like to conform to even tighter limits, and for those who would like to control such events. There's always a market for satisfying the needs of those who like to be bound by restrictions, often with numerous sub-clauses.

A case of 'chacun a son gout, or chacun à son goût'. One's English, and one's French, the main difference being where you place the accent. Like 'Allure Libre', which in English would seem to mean 'within broad limits, defined by a committee,' and those limits vary according to whether it's a BR or a BRM.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Navigation is not an intrinsic part of randonneuring.  Think of the blind tandem stoker, is he not a randonneur?

I do notice that there's a single point allocation across all the distances in the 24 now. So it looks like the spoilsports have been hobbling it.

Damon I think that's just a display issue - I'm fairly sure that the appropriate points have been allocated to each individual.

...but looping for 24 hours trying to outdo each other is not in the randonneur spirit

The 'looping for 24 hours' isn't particularly in the randonneur spirit but the 'trying to outdo each other' is (some) part of being a randonneur. The ACP set up the Fleche Velocio in 1947, well after the split from UAF brevets in 1921. The ACP strongly values every team attempting the maximum distance possible, hence the 2 hour limit for stops at controls (which I disagree with) and the 20% tolerance in actual versus planned distance (360km minimum). Each year, the ACP trophy for the most distance achieved is much sought after. US Metro (the cycling club of the Parisien transport union) still holds the Fleche Velocio record at 778km in 24 hours.

Audax Oz's Fleche Oppy record is 770km but a couple of teams (they beat the male and female team distances respectively) were DQed a couple of years ago for hand ups from following cars between controls. Drew and I were members of the same cycling club, back in his junior days.
https://cyclingtips.com/2016/03/oppy-record-breakers-disqualified-for-breaking-the-rules/

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Think of the motos at PBP, for one. Some overseas organisers of long and remote brevets patrol the route in motor vehicles, which can be very helpful where it is difficult to carry enough water.

First I've heard of motos at PBP. What do they do? But I increasingly get the impression that PBP and LEL are organized in rather different ways to other audaxes (in the UK at least).

PBP also has support at the roadside from stalls providing crepes, cafes staying open all night.

None of this is /personal/ support which is not permitted.

Personal support is a whole other kettle of fishy quavers. I was curious about the idea of organiser support between controls. LWaB said:

Every other country takes the approach that you can have whatever personal support you like at controls but only organiser-provided support between controls.

Which was in response to ESL's account of driving to a bike shop to get a part for a stranded rider – which I guess counts as personal support. In that context, mention of organiser-provided support seems to raise the possibility of phoning the organiser to do the same. I've no idea what the rules say but as far as I can see that's not in The Spirit of Audax and I can only imagine the response would be either "There's a bike shop in Z-ville, here's the number of a taxi firm" or "..."

As I mentioned, some foreign organisers/ support crew drive the brevet course to provide support at controls because there are no practical alternatives at those controls and there may be no alternative roads. They may also stop between controls to provide riders with water, food or mechanical support or to pick up broken riders in the middle of nowhere. Picking up riders doesn't apply in most parts of the UK; there are very few places that are truly remote. None of that is 'personal support' to a specific rider; it is provided by the organiser to whoever needs it among the event's riders.

Randonneurs USA explain things quite clearly. https://rusa.org/newsletter/11-04-09.html

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Let's explore the repeated assertion that BRMs are REQUIRED (as in, no other form of qualification would be accepted) as qualifiers for events.

Can you give examples other than PBP (for which ACP stipulate a current year ACP/BRM SR)?

As a single example, the Rocky Mountain 1200 specifies an ACP SR, or ACP 1000km, or LRM 1200+km.

Most USA 1200km rides, AFAICT, (eg the Colorado High Country 1200) are slightly more open in that they'll allow ACP brevets or RUSA events to be used - but good luck with finding an RUSA brevet over here ...

(Fairly obviously, what's in black and white on the entry page isn't necessarily what the organisers will enforce, and I'd probably be a bit surprised if a polite email didn't lead to them accepting appropriate locally homologated rides on a case by case basis, but I certainly wouldn't book flights until I'd been told that they would ...)

BC Randonneurs are keen on qualification, see below:
"Qualification: To be permitted to ride an ACP sanctioned 1000 in BC, you must have completed the basic Super Randonneur series (200, 300, 400, 600 km) at some point in your life."
and
"For rides over 200 km, a rider must qualify at a shorter distance before attempting the next longer ride. A rider who has completed a distance in a previous season may advance to the next one in the current season without doing the shorter qualifier(s). (Exceptions may be made to this rule, but only with the prior approval of the ride organizer and the regional route coordinator.)"

They are not the only randonneuring group that asks for qualifiers by any stretch. Audax Randonneurs Allemagne are holding a Paris-Hamburg 1200 LRM this month. http://www.audax-randonneure.de/index.php?id=224
"Qualification 200 km 300 km 400 km 600 km in 2017 required"

Some organisers are not happy about accepting BR qualifiers in place of BRMs, particularly perms. The fact that there may not be a BRM of that length held in the UK prior to their event doesn't seem to mean much to pedantic organisers.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Heather broke her mech hanger in 2003 near Dumfries. I had to finish sharpish, drive back to Dumfries, give Heather my bike at the Dumfries control, and drive back to Beattock to await Heather.

Heather arrived with a minute to spare. Tom was suspicious that we'd cheated, and it was sent upstairs for scrutiny. Heather was a bit miffed, and went on to do three 600s to remove suspicion. That's how she inadvertently became a Hyper Randonneur (BRM), and me too. She also has a spare mech hanger attached to her bike to this day.

That Heather is a good one.

[Exit Stage Left]

We didn't know that Hyper Randonneur was thing, until HK wondered if shows the first female HR, and Chris S pointed out she wasn't. I don't remember who the first was, it's on a thread here somewhere.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Think of the motos at PBP, for one. Some overseas organisers of long and remote brevets patrol the route in motor vehicles, which can be very helpful where it is difficult to carry enough water.

First I've heard of motos at PBP. What do they do? But I increasingly get the impression that PBP and LEL are organized in rather different ways to other audaxes (in the UK at least).

PBP also has support at the roadside from stalls providing crepes, cafes staying open all night.

None of this is /personal/ support which is not permitted.

Personal support is a whole other kettle of fishy quavers. I was curious about the idea of organiser support between controls. LWaB said:

Every other country takes the approach that you can have whatever personal support you like at controls but only organiser-provided support between controls.

Which was in response to ESL's account of driving to a bike shop to get a part for a stranded rider – which I guess counts as personal support. In that context, mention of organiser-provided support seems to raise the possibility of phoning the organiser to do the same. I've no idea what the rules say but as far as I can see that's not in The Spirit of Audax and I can only imagine the response would be either "There's a bike shop in Z-ville, here's the number of a taxi firm" or "..."

As I mentioned, some foreign organisers/ support crew drive the brevet course to provide support at controls because there are no practical alternatives at those controls and there may be no alternative roads. They may also stop between controls to provide riders with water, food or mechanical support or to pick up broken riders in the middle of nowhere. Picking up riders doesn't apply in most parts of the UK; there are very few places that are truly remote. None of that is 'personal support' to a specific rider; it is provided by the organiser to whoever needs it among the event's riders.

Understood, thanks.

[whosatthewheel]

... I am not even sure DIY should be considered "brevets"... when in most cases they are well rehearsed loops around X's personal address

Some are, most aren't, but where's your point?

Are you saying riders should be barred from taking part in events more than , say, 3 times because after that it's no longer 'audacious'?

I must have ridden the Poor Student 7 - 8 times and I'm a beginner compared to some. Fact is over time its inevitable audacious outings turn into old friends. What then?

DIY are convenience. I am on course for a RRTY... I have not committed to anything in December-January-February, basically because I am not sure whether that day it will be possible to ride at all. So I will instead plan some handy DIY from my home to do at my conveninece when there is no ice on the roads.

It's a practical way to get those points I need in winter, but if it wasn't for the points, the all concept of DIY as a brevet makes little sense. Maybe I am giving too much meaning to a Brevet, which in essence is just a certificate that says "you've cycled 200 km going through A and B and C" within time restrictions.
If it wasn't for the points and the vanity of the award, why would I pay 4 pounds to get a piece of paper that certifies that I have cycled 200 km around my house, when I know already I have?

[citoyen]

If it wasn't for the points and the vanity of the award, why would I pay 4 pounds to get a piece of paper that certifies that I have cycled 200 km around my house, when I know already I have?

Why indeed would you pay £4 when it's cheaper to buy in bulk?

[Somnolent]

I'm taking the French at face value out of context, and 'Allure Libre' means 'Free Pace'. The 24 has no minimum or maximum speed, whereas all other points-bearing rides do, and are therefore not run at a free pace, simply within wide limits.

In the context of audax, or randonneur cycling in general,  allure libre events all have either time limits or speed limits (even though each participant is free to choose their own pace within those limits). 
It is simply a convenient description to distinguish such events from the UAF style where a set pace is imposed.

But the argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny anyway.
Whilst the 24 hr TT event, organised under CTT rules, has no speed limits; in an AUK context, you only get points for a 24 if you've ridden at least 360km.  That imposes a 'speed limit' - but it still doesn't make it a BR or BRM or any other kind of audax event.

[Wycombewheeler]

... I am not even sure DIY should be considered "brevets"... when in most cases they are well rehearsed loops around X's personal address

Some are, most aren't, but where's your point?

Are you saying riders should be barred from taking part in events more than , say, 3 times because after that it's no longer 'audacious'?

I must have ridden the Poor Student 7 - 8 times and I'm a beginner compared to some. Fact is over time its inevitable audacious outings turn into old friends. What then?

DIY are convenience. I am on course for a RRTY... I have not committed to anything in December-January-February, basically because I am not sure whether that day it will be possible to ride at all. So I will instead plan some handy DIY from my home to do at my conveninece when there is no ice on the roads.

It's a practical way to get those points I need in winter, but if it wasn't for the points, the all concept of DIY as a brevet makes little sense. Maybe I am giving too much meaning to a Brevet, which in essence is just a certificate that says "you've cycled 200 km going through A and B and C" within time restrictions.
If it wasn't for the points and the vanity of the award, why would I pay 4 pounds to get a piece of paper that certifies that I have cycled 200 km around my house, when I know already I have?

Also have you seen how few 200s are in the calendar in February. Without DIY most rrty attempts would falter at this time.

[Greenbank]

Whilst the 24 hr TT event, organised under CTT rules, has no speed limits; in an AUK context, you only get points for a 24 if you've ridden at least 360km.  That imposes a 'speed limit' - but it still doesn't make it a BR or BRM or any other kind of audax event.

The upper Audax speed limit (30kph) is kind of applied too as you can't get more than 7 points (e.g. 24h*30kph=720km) even if you're lucky enough to be able to ride 800km or more in a 24.

I think it's great that AUK awards points for 24h TT participation, even if it seems shoe-horned into the rules.

[rob]

I think it's great that AUK awards points for 24h TT participation, even if it seems shoe-horned into the rules.

History, innit ?

[Manotea]

If it wasn't for the points and the vanity of the award, why would I pay 4 pounds to get a piece of paper that certifies that I have cycled 200 km around my house, when I know already I have?

Why indeed would you pay £4 when it's cheaper to buy in bulk?

Indeed, this DIY org far prefers that... less admin...

As for "Points and Vanity", why bother riding Brevets at all?

Many AUK's gain a sense of participation and purpose from completing Brevets/Validated events, and that applies whether the event is a Calendar, Perm or DIY.

Some might argue that Cals are harder than Perms or vice-versa, but the variance in rider's capabilities, routes and conditions render the argument meaningless.

The key thing - and it seems to me, something which is very much under-appreciated - is that events organised under different types of Brevet Categories comply to the same basic set of regulations, and thereby equivalent for AUK awards purposes.

[Whitedown Man]

I work alternate weekends so frequently go long spells between local calendar events on non-working weekends, especially during the winter. Riding DIYs on my non-working weekdays enables me continue to pursue SRs, RRtYs and, this year, an R10000.  Without DIYs I'd still ride my bike, but I wouldn't be able to participate in the 'points and badges' elements of being an AUK.

[whosatthewheel]

As for "Points and Vanity", why bother riding Brevets at all?

Mainly because I trust an organiser to deliver a nice day out on the bike, which is different (and most likely better) from the one I would map on my own. On longer events, it's the camaraderie, the possibility to cycle very far where food and occasionally even sleep has been arranged, so I don't have to carry 10 kg of panniers and I can enjoy a mountain pass instead of hating it.

I still have to get a grip on the idea of riding 600 km stopping at Esso gas stations to validate my card, but I might one day... you never know.

I generally look forward to riding a brevet... I might even go for the RRTY and the SR, but I won't obsess over them... I'm in it for the fun, it doesn't have to be a chore.
Point collection is not something I crave... the RRTY idea is more to keep fitness up for the longer events in the summer, than to put my name on an award.

Let's put it this way: if in order to get a brevet I'd have to cycle on the A515 to get to an info control, I'd rather not get the brevet and the points and take an alternative route to enjy my ride. This probably sums the attitude quite well

[paulatic]

With an RRA officiated LEJOG in progress, it's as well to point out the hierarchy of observation entailed in validated events.

I remember a running of Tom Hanley's 'Over the Edge', where someone couldn't see the point of going over the big climb the event was named after. Tom had the secret control there. The short-cutters were mortified at the Drumlanrig control, when they found out that their 400 PBP qualifier wouldn't be validated. I do like a stickler.

Heather broke her mech hanger in 2003 near Dumfries. I had to finish sharpish, drive back to Dumfries, give Heather my bike at the Dumfries control, and drive back to Beattock to await Heather.

Heather arrived with a minute to spare. Tom was suspicious that we'd cheated, and it was sent upstairs for scrutiny. Heather was a bit miffed, and went on to do three 600s to remove suspicion. That's how she inadvertently became a Hyper Randonneur (BRM), and me too. She also has a spare mech hanger attached to her bike to this day.

I have to agree Tom is a stickler for detail and as such I feel, on his behalf,  I need to make this record of events accurate. I've always helped or ridden all his events.
Tom has NEVER had a secret control there were only ever info controls on the Buccleugh 400. Over the Edge was named from going over Firestone Edge after Alemoor reservoir on the road to Hawick. The control In question that was missed was on the Brevet card as Swyre on a road over a hill from Ettrick to Yarrow. The riders in question turned off the route too soon.
Tom would never accuse anyone of cheating but will always point out if the rules of Audax have not been observed.
I recall also Heather had been riding with Jack and he stayed with her until he knew you were on the way to help. I am assured there was no suspicion, only concern that she would make it in time, and it was certainly never sent 'upstairs'.

[Exit Stage Left]

Give our regards to Tom, he and his rides are much missed. I notice you say that the control was on the brevet card. Routesheets tended to get used every running, and it was often unclear if controls could be staffed. I recall a guy on a motorbike.

It was always a good idea to check the card, as that is definitive. It is a way of deterring alternative routing.

I recall that when I met Heather at the Dumfries control, she was out of time. I advised her not to put the time in the box, so as to blur that point. Tom looked concerned about that, and said he would seek clarification. It was a fast ride back, with a tailwind, so she made the time up.
 

[paulatic]

Give our regards to Tom, he and his rides are much missed. I notice you say that the control was on the brevet card. Routesheets tended to get used every running, and it was often unclear if controls could be staffed. I recall a guy on a motorbike.

That was our local dentist who used to ride out there to man it.
They were good events with a wonderful variety of riders. Had a guy ride it in a pair of chinos one year


Thank Heather for getting me round the Daylight I've always been grateful for that. It was the last long ride I ever did as I suffered with migraines for the next three years after it.